ghettoman Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Even though it is in the player's guide, I don't have it. So what is the description of Universe Creation in the book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Even though it is in the player's guide, I don't have it. So what is the description of Universe Creation in the book?Are you missing that page?And I think the description is "Yes, really". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Basically the more succ you get on your Int roll (of course it would be Int considering it's Divis' power), the more control over the contents and the location of a gate you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Of course it would be Int considering it's Divis' power.Meh. Intelligence for Universe Creation makes a lot more sense to me than Manipulation for Quantum Construct does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 Meh. Intelligence for Universe Creation makes a lot more sense to me than Manipulation for Quantum Construct does.Agreed. QC should be Wits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezekiel Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 What if you're coaxing demons out of a gate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 You aren't. No matter what it looks like, what you are doing is manipulating energy trapped inside a forcefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezekiel Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 But the character might not know that in which case I don't see why his wits would apply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 But the character might not know that in which case I don't see why his wits would apply...That might be the case, but as a default he will know that he isn’t dealing with other creatures so making Manipulation the base, as a default, makes no sense at all.Even dealing with your odd exception it still doesn’t make any sense, in the Abby universe there are NO other planer creatures (or whatever) for him to use his social skills on, he is effectively talking to himself.I assume this power is transferred from some other WW game verse where there are other creatures… or that the developer was thinking along those lines. Shaping this kind of thing is more akin to sculpture than anything else. Wits should definitely be the default and I don’t see any good opportunities for cross matching it.I mean, defining your Force Field as "The hands of Angels protect me" should not normally let you change the defining attribute to Manip or Chr. Q-Construct doesn't involve social skills anymore than Temporal Manipulation does.... which is another one where they are using the wrong attribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilgamesh2206 Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I mean, defining your Force Field as "The hands of Angels protect me" should not normally let you change the defining attribute to Manip or Chr. Q-Construct doesn't involve social skills anymore than Temporal Manipulation does.... which is another one where they are using the wrong attribute.←The problem is that White Wolf seem innordinately fond of Manipulation and tend to use it with any power that involves "manipulating" something, rather than control in a social setting. Age Alteration is one of the prime examples - I guess it really is a literal case of "lying to them about how old they look" ::wink . I believe there are some techniques on cyberkinesis which use manipulation as well and that is a blatant inconsistency with the description of the attribute unless you are dealing with a self-aware AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nullifier Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 I would argue that it makes a certain amount of sense. How do you know the novas who make Q-Constructs are merely manipulating energy inside a forcefield? It seems like if they were doing that they could use Q-Construct to make anything, machines, inanimate object, all sorts of stuff. They can't. They can only create 'creatures.' This implies that the constructs created through the power are to some extent living things, animals, if you will, and controlling them would take the ability to manipulate people and creatures. With extras, Q-Construct can even give them mental and social traits, making manipulation all the more important. If the Mega-Intelligent quantum genie you summoned to build you a flying car with the Matter Creation power you've bestowed upon him won't build the car, you'd be seriously annoyed. By combining the manipulation trait with the power, you assure obiedience from any creatures you summon, simply because you can only summon as many creatures as your combined control over your powers and ability to manipulate others allows for. ....Actually, it makes a lot more sense now that I've written that. I wasn't quite sure 'bout it before, to be honest, but the details seem to speak for themselves. ::pokemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 How do you know the novas who make Q-Constructs are merely manipulating energy inside a forcefield?Q-Construct has a prerequisite of forcefield. …This implies that the constructs created through the power are to some extent living things, animals, if you will, and controlling them would take the ability to manipulate people and creatures.The default power creates mindless creatures that automatically obey your will. Robots or zombies or whatever. Not a lot of manipulation there. With the extras you create creatures with social skills and awareness that also automatically obey your will.Even with those extras, there STILL is no reason for manipulation because the creatures are still subject to your will. They are manifestations of your power, you can kill them by just turning off the power, and there are no rules, or even hints at rules, for creature rebellion or even the need to control them. After creation they are slaves. (And don’t get me started on creating a creature with powers you lack, that’s a broken rule for a different time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nullifier Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 That's the point Alex. What I'm saying is that in order to justify the creatures being obedient to the nova's will, the power had to be paired with manipulation. A bee or a worm is just a mindless creature, but in game terms, if you want to get it to do something for you, manipulation would be the attribute you'd use. Actually, to be honest, it'd be kinda neat if you could pair it with another attrib. Int to make objects and machines, wits to summon hordes of creatures that rampage about out of control, charisma to summon normal human type people. Could be fun. ::biggrin Maybe that ought to be an extra for it, 'Alternate Attribute' or somesuch. It'd be kinda annoying to write up, but it might be fun to play. ::cool....Edit: That might be stepping on the toes of Matter Creation a bit with the Int. I still like the others, though. ::biggrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Hmm, maybe we should go through the power listings, and reassign all the non-mental powers that use social attributes as a base. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 Hmm, maybe we should go through the power listings, and reassign all the non-mental powers that use social attributes as a base. . .I'd love too... and on the same note IMHO many of the skills are assigned to the wrong attribute. A! tends to be closer to correct IMHO... but there's a limit to how much tampering with the core rules one can do without being ST.IMHO pretty near all the non-mental powers where Manipulation is used would be better served by using Wits or possibly Int (although Int already does plenty and Wits not much at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 A quick go-through of the core book. . .Cyberkinesis: Control should be Wits, I'd say, given the machines controlled don't even need to be that complex. Fool. . . I could actually buy it being Manipulation, given its a form of deception ( even if what your fooling is mostly sensors and security ).Disorient: Mental power, mostly, so leave it as is.Domination: Mental power.Empathic Manipulation: Ditto.Holo: Not a mental power, exactly, but its efficacy is strongly based on deceiving people. Leave it as is.Mirage: Mental power.Molecular Manipulation: Animation should probably be Wits, especially since its almost certainly being used simultaneous to other stuff.Quantum Construct: As has been discussed before, should really be Wits.Temporal Manipulation: Age Alteration could either be Wits or Int, I see no real difference.Seems like the only real offenders are Q-Construct and Animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Oh, and my rule of thumb for dice pools:Dexterity: for stuff involving immediate physical manipulation, or that are otherwise physically aimedStamina: defensive powers, or stuff that involves screwing with 'life energy'Perception: anything primarily involving senses or information gathering, and instant movement powersIntelligence: things involving complex alterations or creationsWits: effects with some degree of complexity, that are likely to be maintained while other actions are takenManipulation: screwing around with sentient thought or perception Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Stamina: defensive powers, or stuff that involves screwing with 'life energy'And/or things resisted with "Resistance".And well done on the list. ::thumbup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Nice one Metap,Molecular Manipulation had some iffyness picked up on in the Errata, but the Animation one slipped through and still bugged me. As has already been said on this thread, much to much use of Manipulation for controlling matter/objects/energy when Wits or Int is more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weft Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 And maybe with these rules Mega-Wits would be worth buying...or as much so as the other mega-attributes. I like Mega-Wits; at least, I like the IDEA behind it...Nice! ::ultracoolAnd I think the 'Alternate Attribute' idea has merit. If you believe, really and truly believe in spite of all evidence that your powers come from parlaying with otherwordly beings or the like, then the nature of quantum is that your success will hinge on your persuasiveness, or charisma, or attractiveness. Likewise, if you believe you're tapping into the Collective Unconscious or some plane of Higher Forms when you shapeshift, you might be using Wits or even Intelligence. But it goes without saying that this is really, really open to abuse. And makes things needlessly complex. I wouldn't bother with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 My primary objection to variable base attributes? It would create a huge incentive to come up with SFX and justifications for all your powers to use one or two attributes, which coincidentally, you have maxed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Yeah, much too open to abuse. Should stick with a single attribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hmm, related question: should Strength, Charisma, or Appearance *ever* be used as the base attribute of a power? If so, what type of power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Strength no,Charisma I'd allow for Animal Mastery since you don't actually "control" them as such. App... um.... I can't think of any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I can't think of one off the top of my head, but perhaps Strength for a Brawl related power, or Clinging as it is related to Might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I could also see Quantum Constructe being based off of Stamina, similar to the Force Field it uses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorx Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I could also see Quantum Construct being based off of Stamina, similar to the Force Field it uses...I could see that if it only related to the size or number of the Constructs created, but since it is just or more likely to be used to alter their stats and/or powers/skills I think something like Wits or perhaps at a push Int would be more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Hmm, related question: should Strength, Charisma, or Appearance *ever* be used as the base attribute of a power? If so, what type of power? I could see an argument for CHA or APP being used for some visually-related powers, such as Strobe or Shroud, or possibly Stun. Beyond that, no, and it would have to be argued to me to allow the change. STR I cannot think of anything; Mega-STR is already pretty damn powerful on its own, or in combination with Claws, that I do not believe it needs any other power linked to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilord Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 : NOTE : Not saying I agree with it, but.....A possible reason for Manipulation being behind something like Q-Construct could be that WW views it as the outwardly-forceful mental attribute. Wits lets you speedily act and react, Intelligence subsumes knowing what the heck you are doing; but good old Manipulation is the attribute for imposing your will. Be it imposing your will on a person's beliefs or on the quantum energies you summoned up Manipulation is the control.Like driving a car, you are the brains deciding what to do (INT), the engine provides the acceleration (WITS) and the stering wheel and pedals actually control things (MAN).Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Personally I think one developer just said "this power is manipulating energy" and someone else just said, "oh, it's manipulation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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