WoD 2.0

[SnakeEyes]

Appologies if this has been covered, I'm not known for searches with good results.

Ok, yesterday I bought WoD 2.0 'storytelling system rulebook' from my local bookstore for £11.99 (I didn't by Vampire... as I have no vampiric players... I'll wait till the others come out). My main reason for buying wasn't to use it by itself, but to incorporate any good ideas into old WoD.

And although I haven't read it thoroughly yet, after a skim through, I'm sticking to that decision. It's a bit of a let down for me, it seems... almost poorly sturctured, although the writing and fillers are upto scratch, the rules appear rushed.

Anybody else got or read through it? What did you think?

I'll read it properly when I have time, but now I have to go, my cat's trying to climb my back. ::crazy

Cheers,

SnakeEyes

[Bahamut810]

I have only skimmed it (im not going to buy it...$20 for part of a system? I dont think so...). But so far I think I like the way the new attribute work. Its a lot more clear-cut how they work...You have the 'attack' the 'defence' and the 'other' stat (I cant remember the official title for other, but thats pretty much what it means). A lot more clear cut what they are used for...but if you know the system well enough there is no problems with that.

My big complaint about that is that it seems like change for the sake of change. Like I said...when you know the system fairly well, its easy to know where to go. OTher then that I havent had opportunity to read about it much so I have no opinion.

[SnakeEyes]

Ok, I've read it a little more and it's starting to grow on me, although I don't see the attributes as 'clear cut'. Call me old fashioned, but I thought the original attributes were pretty clear cut.

The reason I thought it was poorly structured has hit me now (no bruises though ::wink), it's because they've gone into more detail about what the abilities can be used for (e.g. Athletics has write-ups for jumping, climbing etc), and the font makes it look messy.

I like the revised derangements, although splitting them into just 'mild' and 'severe' doesn't seem enough to me. Ah well, being a scientist, I like to see wide spectrums.

I'm still unlikely to use it, but now I think I'll see what the other books bring before I decide for sure.

However, I've fallen in love with the chapter fiction... check out page 89, which follows the best art work I've seen in WoD IMO.

But yeah, it's growing on me.

Cheers,

Old Fashioned SnakeEyes.

[Sphere]

I've read a couple of reviews of it which seem to be generally positive about it (I like that vampires now have to spend a point of Permanent Willpower to embrace someone). Unifying the various WoD titles into a coherant whole is something that's been needed for a long while.

However, I may be getting cynical in my old age because it does smell suspiciously like an attempt to re-package the brand slightly so everyone buys it again and again and again. I call this Games Workshop syndrome ::biggrin

Ignore me, I'm just annoyed they never brought out an official Aberrant War supplement ::angry .

[SnakeEyes]

::offtopic

I thought that was the 'new and improved syndrome'. To quote 'The Parking Lot Is Full'-

One day, the consumer goods that are constantly packaged and re-packaged as "New and Improved" will reach a point where further new improvements will be impossible. When this happens, life will cease to have a purpose, and the real innovation will finally begin.

But, back on track, this still isn't a 'coherant whole' in a complete and utter sense of the term, because they will still be bringing out individual core books for each game they intend to release for 2.0. And looking at the size of Vampire: The Requiem, it has a lot more system in it than the base book (although, admittedly, I have not read nor bought vampire, for reasons stated earlier), thus making the core book nearly redundant once the characters have been created. Obviously, those new to storytelling will need to refer to it now and again, but other than that, it has little use except being a separate book required to play any other game released for 2.0. Not that I would expect them to draw up everything in one book... it would be a)rushed, badly done, and b)the most rediculously priced book since 'Bergey's Manual of Systematic Bacteriology'...

However, I think it makes excellent bed time reading, as usual. Yes, I lead a rather sad life. I've been a university student for 2 weeks, and haven't got hammered once. Heck, I haven't even touched alcohol in 2 weeks... ::crazy

Anywho, I digress... has anyone else read it (or even better, vampire)?

Cheers,

SnakeEyes

[Sphere]

Hey you, quit yer gibbering and get with the drinking. You're a student now, you've got standards to live down to ::chillbeer

::wink

[ProfPotts]

... I've been a university student for 2 weeks, and haven't got hammered once. Heck, I haven't even touched alcohol in 2 weeks... 

Don't worry - that grant check will come through eventually... ::beer ::wink

[SnakeEyes]

It came through nearly 2 weeks ago... but thanks to the bank I had chosen to open a student account with refusing me on the grounds that I can't drive and I've never left the country, it's been stuck in a savings account... however, I now have an account, and all this bank needed was my letter of acceptance from UCAS (university and college application service for non-uk).

And alas, no more grants... I get cheap tution fees (I pay less than 10%), but other than that, I get a loan (a nice loan, admittedly, but still a loan). And over 1g of that has already gone on transport. Still, cheaper that 3g's on accomodation.

Ah the good life... living at home means I have more money to spend on, ahem, 'educational books'.

Which means I'll be checking out both Werewolf and Mage when they are released. And stocking up on the orpheus books ::biggrin .

Talking of W&M, if the fiction and art is as good as the storytelling rulebook, I'll probably tear my wallet to pieces trying to buy them. That's worth it alone...

[madcat82]

I looked through the World of Darkness Rulebook and Vampire now, and to be honest, Im very displeased.

Here is my thoughts:

Setting: An improvement IMHO, having gone from a fairly high "fantasy" to a somewhat low one is good in my mind. This, however, is the only good point I found.

Rules: Let me get this straight, they switched from a system who needed a whole 138 pages, including character creation and Disciplines (taken from Vampire the Masquerade Revised core book)

to one where only the basic system takes up almost a whole book (188 pages, about)? and then there is about a 100 pages more in the Vampire book (and then I dont count the 50 or so pages of storytelling advice and antagonist stuff) . And this is a good thing? No, sorry.

Content: The clans have been cut from 13 to 5, with 5 extra bloodlines. That means a cut of 3. ok.

There are now 14 Disciplines (the original contained 17). A cut of 3. Ok. The strucktures of the clans and the undead society is about the same volume.

Conclusion: They have cut down on most things, except for rules, and while it may seem unfair to count number of disciplines, I did that to prove a point. The point being: White wolf cut down on almost everything to push in more rules as well as getting out a required book as well as the core book, now what does this tell me? It tells me that WW wants to sell more (two books, the core book and a "race" book is now required in order to play the game) and the easiest way to do this is to cut down on content (becos that can be added into other books, that will then be more worth buying) and that is, imho, a bad way to do business.

[SnakeEyes]

... ok that comes as rather a surprise... I knew about the clans, but I didn't realise how much else they'd cut down on... I mean, I don't know the exact page count, but VtR appears to me (without a proper comparison, though), much thicker than VtM... what taking up so much space? increase in font size? ::confused

After that revelation, the other books don't seem promising for anything more than bed time reading... Ah well... I suppose if they'd kept too much the same they wouldn't sell any 2.0.

madcat, any good ideas that might be worth incoporating into old WoD? Or haven't you had a in-depth read yet?

Cheers,

SnakeEyes

[madcat82]

The volume is about the same to be honest (302 pages in the new VtR book, 304 in the old VtM book). However, while they have saved about 30 pages in the VtR on rules, they have used these on setting (New Orleans as a city is in the book, something I appreciate, but I have said that in my last post).

In the new world of darkness rulebook... close to zero.

There are some things, like the Derangements, although a scale that only involves mild and severe is perhaps a bit to little, that I would consider using, and there look on Monster Hunters and Ghosts. But appart from that, nothing...

In the new Vampire the Requim book... somewhat more.

The info on New Orleans is good, and very detailed, except for a few points, but those where easy to look up on wikipedia.

I did not like most of the new disciplines they presented, but they are easy to snatch and used, as well as the method in witch you can create bloodlines (who is, in my mind at least, very agreable)...

Thats about it I would say...

Here is my opinion on what they could have done better:

First: the rules system, instead of slaughtering it, fix its, FEW, flaws, and making it FULLY translatable into all the games. This last thing is something I think they are trying to implement, but from what I have seen, they have failed uterly.

Second: I would have cut down on the rules in the supernatural books, instead focusing on setting and background, something they go almost futily short into.

Third: Im not much for cool powers (probably a large part of the reason why I do not like abberant as much as Adventure and Trinity), I would make bloody sure that there where more Clans and Disciplines in the new edition than in the old, as well as not, I repeat not, take away the fun/good ones. Clan Lasombra (and dont tell me that you do not find religious power hungry spaniards cool) is for example excluded from the new edition. While I do not like there role in the Sabbat, that could easily have been changed to there old Manipulator role in Vampire: the Dark Ages.

Fourth: NEW NAMES. I do not like the reusage of old names or roles, becous they are so easily tainted by there old usages. And malkOvian is not the least bit amusing. Now not only does my players see malkavians as funny little guys who wear propeller hats, the name helps them think that to... THANKS SO BLOODY MUCH WHITE WOLF!!!!

My opinion...

[SnakeEyes]

Yeah, I found the st handbook rather lacking the flaw department... not really a problem, I'd've just liked to see what they would've put rather than having to snatch old flaws myself.

No LaSombra? ::blink apart from the malkavians, they were my favourite clan! Ach dammit. One of my major antagonists was LaSombra. One that I like to bring back every now and again.

And malkOvian is not the least bit amusing. Now not only does my players see malkavians as funny little guys who wear propeller hats, the name helps them think that to...

MalkOvian? Forgive my language but, wtf? You're right, that isn't funny in the slightest. I always saw the malkavians as the the man in the assylum who tells you strange things that no one should know... That name just ruins the image.

Tell me it's a typo... please? ::smiley4

Ach! gotta go... train to catch.

Cheers,

SnakeEyes

[madcat82]

No, sorry, no typo... the malkovians are here to haunt us... or something... ::blink

[SnakeEyes]

::smiley4

Why? *snivvel* Why did they do it? New writers? sounds like the 'Soap Opera Syndrome'...

Aw crikey... seems hope is dwindling for the other 2 books then... I think I'll need more tissues. ::smiley4

[madcat82]

Well, I still have hopes for Werewolf the forsaken...but I would not bett on it...

awh, at least we have Vampire the dark ages left...

[ProfPotts]

Okay - I finally caved & brought the new World of Darkness book. Having skimmed it, I've formed a few opinions:

Attribute changes - Strength, Dexterity, & Stamina survive to fight another day, as do Intelligence, Wits, & Manipulation. Charisma has been replaced by Presence - as far as I can tell a purely semantic alteration. Perception is gone - now a roll governed by the combination of two other Attributes (there are a lot of these 'combos' in the new system), & Appearance has been relegated to the lowly status of a Merit ('Striking Looks'). The two new Attributes are Resolve & Composure - which are sort of like two sub-catagories of the old Willpower Trait (they now, combined, make up the character's Willpower).

The new Attribute system is meant to result in a 'Power', 'Finesse', & 'Resistance' Attribute for each of the three 'Mental', 'Physical', & 'Social' Attribute groups.

CharGen changes - compared with the old WoD your starting mortal character will be an absolute cripple. They appear to have designed the system with an eye towards enforcing character mediocrity. You now get 5/4/3 dots to add to the one starting dot in each Attribute, with the 5th dot costing double. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the only way to score a '5' in an Attribute now is to have a character who is crippled in all other aspects of that Attribute group - sure, you can have a 5 Strength, but that'll take all 5 of your primary Attribute group dots, so you'll have a Dexterity & Stamina of 1 each. So, pretty much every single character created is going to end up either grossly unbalanced, or with a 2 or 3 in every single Attribute.

For Abilities you get 11/7/4, but the number of Abilities have been cut to a mere 8 per Attribute group. Oh, the 5th dot costs double again.

You get specialities which work as in the Trinity Universe, but without the limit of 3 per Ability. You start with 3 for 'free'.

There are a lot of derived values - specifically Willpower - which can't be raised independantly now (nearly all character will start with a Willpower of 4 to 6).

There's a Defense Trait - the lower of Wits & Dexterity - which substitues for any defense in combat on the character's part (although you can boost it slightly by dodging). Again - being based off the worst of two Attributes, this is going to be 2 or 3 for pretty much all characters.

There is no Soak - Stamina just adds to Size (5 for all humans) to determine (get this) 'Health Dots'... ::rolleyes

There are no Backgrounds - just 'Merits' which incorperate stuff that used to be Merits as well as some of the (de-powered) Backgrounds like 'Retainer' (yes... just the one...). The character gets 7 dots for these - again the 5th dot costs double.

The real bastard of them all though is - no Freebie Points! You recall how you used to enjoy customising your characters back in the good ol' days of WoD version 1.0? Well, you can forget that sort of stuff now, buster - it's average or nothing in 2.0... ::crazy

Combat - as mentioned above, there's no Soak, but also no damage rolls - everything is reduced to one roll. Attribute + Ability + modifiers (yes - they're very keen on modifiers now - as if the ST didn't have enough to think about running these things) - target's Defense (though not Vs bullets & arrows), rolled as a dice pool - each success is a dot of damage. Yes - hitting & damaging have been reduced to one & the same thing.

Armour provides reductions to damage but also tends to reduce Defense. This, idiotically, results in it being useless 9 times out of 10 - since reducing damage & Defense are one & the same now. For example - you wear chainmail which reduces (non-ballistic) attacks by 2, but also reduces your Defense by 2 - net result: no point in wearing the stuff at all. Worse, against ballistic attacks, chainmail only provides a -1 to damage - you're, when all's said & done, far worse off than if you'd not bothered wearing any protection in the first place. Since armour also has a minimum Strength to wear without further penalties, & reduces your character's Speed (how fast you can run) - it is worse than useless. Of course, it does help against bullets a little (since you get zero defense against bullets usually) - but it's definitely not something you're gonna' want a character to wear most of the time.

System changes - as if a target number of 6 or 7 wasn't hard enough, we now have a set target number of 8! 0.3 successes per die, for those who are counting - i.e. you need a dice pool of at least 4 to hope for an average roll of at least one success. Remember that your character's dice pool will be crapper than back in the day as well, due to the new CharGen rules. You do get to re-roll any & all 10s (&, with a shotgun in combat, any & all 9s or 10s). Difficulties just remove dice from your pool before you roll - if you end up with 0 dice or less you can still roll one - only succeeding on a 10, & botching on a 1.

So - you roll less dice, but rely heavily on player (not character) luck to get all those 10s you'll need. The statistics are one thing but, if like me you're a generally unlucky roller, you'll end up with characters who can't walk & chew gum at the same time. Generally in RPGs characters who have a hard time succeeding at even the easiest tasks have a demoralising effect on the players - I guess that's what they were aiming for... ::rolleyes

No Natures & the like - a Vice & a Virtue (the 7 'classics' for each) - you get Willpower back by indulging in either (so, if you want to have an easy way to regain Willpower create two characters who both take the 'Lust' Vice & just 'do it' between scenes... ::blush ).

Morality is the new Humanity (sounds like a political platform that) - dropping below your starting 7 makes you insane - any activities remotely akin to role-play style adventuring (such as, you know, fighting people or stealing evidence & stuff) will drop your Morality score. Call of Cthulhu anyone?

On the plus side, some of the new 'Merits' are quite nice (like Gunslinger for Woo-style action): but there are only a handful of them, & they hardly make-up for the loss of Backgrounds & Freebie Points.

Generally your characters (mortals at least - I've get to succum to the Vamp' book) have been declawed to the point of being totally average. You can forget trying to design an interesting & unique character now - with no Freebie Points you just can't customise the Joe Average you're handed at CharGen. You can still make a resonable combat character with the right Merits, but your Attributes, in particular, will be the same as everyone else around you.

I don't know about this - as you can probably tell, I think a lot of it is a giant step backwards (like the loss of descriptive Health Levels - you might as well just have Hit Points & be damned). Maybe it's all done to make the Vamps & their friends all über-kewl in comparison to lowly mortals - I don't know - but the combat system still sucks (maybe even more than before), there are less Abilities, & generally a feeling of 'slimlining' to the point of a massacre.

Just IMHO, natch. ::wink

[SnakeEyes]

Just IMHO, natch. ::wink

(-shortened quote. Did you think I was going to quote all of it? for those who've just tuned in, the 'previously on...' narative is above ::wink )

My sentiments exactly... although I kind of prefer 'presence' as a merging of charisma and appearance... I felt appearance a little badly handled in WoD1.0. After all, surely a beast would stand better chance at intimidation than a beauty? Although you could get around this by adding 'fearsome' or such in the little speciality space, but what player wants to spend points on being frightening, when you can simpley switch the system round so the intimidation die pool consists of the skill + appearance reversed (i.e. 4 dice for an app. of 1, 3 dice for an app. of 2 etc.)

However I obviously haven't read it that well, I hadn't noticed the lack of freebies. That's a kick in the happy sack, to be frank.

SnakeEyes

P.S. And the first person to say 'Hi Frank' gets it... *need fist shaking smiley*

[Bahamut810]

MAn...Im glad I havent bought any of the books then. Quite frankly I have only looked at the attribute section.

Now I definatly wont buy.

Here's hoping that the entire line dies quickly, and they et back to important things. Like Aeon.

[Obsidian Shade]

It's moneymaking. I don't blame WW for it. It's their job. But i thought their would be a really new WoD - not only an upgrade. They have taken much of the Aeonstroytellersystem into the new Systems. That's great. But that's not enough for me to get me freaky about an upgrade.

Missed Chance.

[ProfPotts]

Oh - another naff thing I noticed was that knowing a second language now requires a 1 to 3 dot Merit! So you can forget about having a character foreign to where you set your game - 'cos it'll cost too much to actually be able to speak two languages. Characters from places like Africa (where there can be hundreds of distinct tribal dialects) are just stuffed.

The whole book seems to be one of those things you read hoping for the best, but end up thinking 'What were those guys smoking when they wrote this?'... ::rolleyes

I still can't understand why they chucked Freebie points, let alone Backgrounds & descriptive Health Levels (which were, I felt, two of the very best system elements offered by the Storyteller games). If they were gonna' mess things up that much, then why not just go the whole hog & make it D20? ::confused

Oh - & things cost a lot more XP than they used to (but you still get the same amount given to your character).

Oh - & they still haven't de-bugged the illogical Strength system (where ten guys with Strength 1 each can together lift much more than their individual lifting capacities x10...).

I mentioned the fact that hitting stuff in combat & damage are all worked on one roll, right? Who in their right mind would put something like that in an RPG these days? It's like gaming devolution... Bring back Tunnels & Trolls already - at least that was fun.

[SnakeEyes]

Crikey... it must be bad if you're getting nostalgic about tunnels and trolls... remembering t&t as fun is like remembering an honest politician in my opinion. What's next, the price of cheese? ::wink

But age jokes aside, I noticed the language rumpus too... a few of my players happen to enjoy the language skills. It's terrible, I can't imagine what they were thinking.

Obsidian, I'm afraid you'll have to point it out to me, because I fail to see similarities between WoD2.0 and the Aeon system. I found the Aeon system a little convoluted (but then I've only done it twice. Trinity, my first was more difficult, so I may just need to try again), but WoD2.0 is seriously... for want of a better term, lacking

Still... the artwork's good, though the more we go into it, the more it seems that's all that'so good about it. ::rolleyes

SnakeEyes

[madcat82]

This is my bloody ten cents!

Attribute changes - Strength, Dexterity, & Stamina survive to fight another day, as do Intelligence, Wits, & Manipulation. Charisma has been replaced by Presence - as far as I can tell a purely semantic alteration. Perception is gone - now a roll governed by the combination of two other Attributes (there are a lot of these 'combos' in the new system), & Appearance has been relegated to the lowly status of a Merit ('Striking Looks'). The two new Attributes are Resolve & Composure - which are sort of like two sub-catagories of the old Willpower Trait (they now, combined, make up the character's Willpower).

I dislike that they took away perception... I mean, it even works resonably well to have a high perception score and be deap, or blind. And i realy dislike combos as an alternativ.

That they pushed Charisma and Appearance together was not that bad of a move though., but to put some sort of willpower trait in its place?

CharGen changes - compared with the old WoD your starting mortal character will be an absolute cripple. They appear to have designed the system with an eye towards enforcing character mediocrity. You now get 5/4/3 dots to add to the one starting dot in each Attribute, with the 5th dot costing double. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the only way to score a '5' in an Attribute now is to have a character who is crippled in all other aspects of that Attribute group - sure, you can have a 5 Strength, but that'll take all 5 of your primary Attribute group dots, so you'll have a Dexterity & Stamina of 1 each. So, pretty much every single character created is going to end up either grossly unbalanced, or with a 2 or 3 in every single Attribute.

An example: my World class athlete, who have trained his whole life can have Stamina 5, strenght 1 and dexterity 1... or stamina 4, dexterity 2 and strength 2? (or any optional derivation)

There are no Backgrounds - just 'Merits' which incorperate stuff that used to be Merits as well as some of the (de-powered) Backgrounds like 'Retainer' (yes... just the one...). The character gets 7 dots for these - again the 5th dot costs double.

Sometimes I wonder if someone at White Wolf hates me... first, they kill Wraith. Ok, it was not the best of games, but pleas, finish the bloody line ok.

Then they kill Aeon. For this I where prepered to start a bloody war on them...

Now, they &%¤¤#&%#¤&¤% with the backgrounds... That was one of the largest reasons to why I liked the Storyteller system...

The real bastard of them all though is - no Freebie Points! You recall how you used to enjoy customising your characters back in the good ol' days of WoD version 1.0? Well, you can forget that sort of stuff now, buster - it's average or nothing in 2.0...

You have my sympathy there Proff, while I thought that it was a larger mistake that they took away the backgrounds I agree that its a rather large, and bad, step to take away the freebees...

Its like honey and cake without the honey...

Combat - as mentioned above, there's no Soak, but also no damage rolls - everything is reduced to one roll. Attribute + Ability + modifiers (yes - they're very keen on modifiers now - as if the ST didn't have enough to think about running these things) - target's Defense (though not Vs bullets & arrows), rolled as a dice pool - each success is a dot of damage. Yes - hitting & damaging have been reduced to one & the same thing.

A friend of mine thinks that this was a good thing, and I quote: "Now a battle dont have to take hours". I do not agree.

I never did read the fineprint on armour, but I will take your word for it.

System changes - as if a target number of 6 or 7 wasn't hard enough, we now have a set target number of 8! 0.3 successes per die, for those who are counting - i.e. you need a dice pool of at least 4 to hope for an average roll of at least one success. Remember that your character's dice pool will be crapper than back in the day as well, due to the new CharGen rules. You do get to re-roll any & all 10s (&, with a shotgun in combat, any & all 9s or 10s). Difficulties just remove dice from your pool before you roll - if you end up with 0 dice or less you can still roll one - only succeeding on a 10, & botching on a 1.

While I did notice this, I did not put it together with the low dicepools that the players where going to have.

On another note, I think that a target number of 7 is agreeable. Sure its not easy to get a success, but chances are good that you will have one on two to three dices and while I have been playing Trinity I think I have only botched once with a dice higher than five (Guess on what? Correctly, PSI) witch seems resonable to me.

No Natures & the like - a Vice & a Virtue (the 7 'classics' for each) - you get Willpower back by indulging in either (so, if you want to have an easy way to regain Willpower create two characters who both take the 'Lust' Vice & just 'do it' between scenes... ).

I kind of like that actualy... but that might just be me.

Morality is the new Humanity (sounds like a political platform that) - dropping below your starting 7 makes you insane - any activities remotely akin to role-play style adventuring (such as, you know, fighting people or stealing evidence & stuff) will drop your Morality score. Call of Cthulhu anyone?

Interesting, a lot of name changes here (Humanity=Morality, Malkavians=Malkovians)... As well as insanity.

On the plus side, some of the new 'Merits' are quite nice (like Gunslinger for Woo-style action): but there are only a handful of them, & they hardly make-up for the loss of Backgrounds & Freebie Points.

Amen to that.

Generally your characters (mortals at least - I've get to succum to the Vamp' book) have been declawed to the point of being totally average. You can forget trying to design an interesting & unique character now - with no Freebie Points you just can't customise the Joe Average you're handed at CharGen. You can still make a resonable combat character with the right Merits, but your Attributes, in particular, will be the same as everyone else around you.

While you can design a interesting character without the system, it helps if the system can reflect said character. Pleas look at my Olympic athlete for reference.

I don't know about this - as you can probably tell, I think a lot of it is a giant step backwards (like the loss of descriptive Health Levels - you might as well just have Hit Points & be damned). Maybe it's all done to make the Vamps & their friends all über-kewl in comparison to lowly mortals - I don't know - but the combat system still sucks (maybe even more than before), there are less Abilities, & generally a feeling of 'slimlining' to the point of a massacre.

Im a little more militant in my approach... I think they took a large chainsaw and made the process short...

The good changes (yes, there is some) is made nonexisting thanks to the large flaws in the system, and the bad bits sinks the system so low that it makes the Titanic look like its floating.

My largest problem with all of this is that it does not even make an effort to look like something else than a moneymaker. I cannot find a good intent for many of the changes, other than change itself. I knew that White Wolf wanted to make money, but this? this is an abonimation...

Oh - another naff thing I noticed was that knowing a second language now requires a 1 to 3 dot Merit! So you can forget about having a character foreign to where you set your game - 'cos it'll cost too much to actually be able to speak two languages. Characters from places like Africa (where there can be hundreds of distinct tribal dialects) are just stuffed.

Actualy they can be foreign, but they cannot speak the local language.

I still can't understand why they chucked Freebie points, let alone Backgrounds & descriptive Health Levels (which were, I felt, two of the very best system elements offered by the Storyteller games).

I agree totaly.

Oh - & they still haven't de-bugged the illogical Strength system (where ten guys with Strength 1 each can together lift much more than their individual lifting capacities x10...).

This is not a bug actualy, but poorly writen rules. You see, a Strength of 3 is not one more than a strength of 2, but twice more (as is every step). Now according to this, ten strength one guys have a combined strength of 4 (1=1, 2=2, 4=3, 8=4, 16=5).

And that about right, according to the chart in Adventure, where one strength dot means 15 kg, and 4 strength dots equal 165 (15*8=120 15*15=225)... Yes i know, not a perfect translation but the storyteller system have allways been a little flexible

BTW Proff, do you ever make a small post? ::tongue

[ProfPotts]

Crikey... it must be bad if you're getting nostalgic about tunnels and trolls...

Oh, come on - any game with a spell named 'Take That, You Fiend!' can't be all bad... Hmmm... Okay... now that you mention it... ::lookaround ::wink

Obsidian, I'm afraid you'll have to point it out to me, because I fail to see similarities between WoD2.0 and the Aeon system.

Lack of a 'floating' target number is the only one I could see, off the top of my head - the target for all rolls is '8' in WoD 2.0, the target for all rolls is '7' in the ol' Aeonverse.

[ProfPotts]

BTW Proff, do you ever make a small post?

No. ::tongue

[Obsidian Shade]

I didn't read the new books but was thinking the major difference between WoD 1.0 and Trinityverse was this fixed target number. The other stuff was very similiar imho. So if they use it, they use the cinematic storytellersystem.

[madcat82]

Obsidian, I'm afraid you'll have to point it out to me, because I fail to see similarities between WoD2.0 and the Aeon system.

Well, we have fixed numbers, the specialitys works as they do in Aeon and (I think) that we have abilitys in subgroups under attributes.

[Obsidian Shade]

I think they wanted the 'new' system as fast as possible. Don't know why and hoped for a really new system.

[operations]

I don't know about this - as you can probably tell, I think a lot of it is a giant step backwards (like the loss of descriptive Health Levels - you might as well just have Hit Points & be damned). Maybe it's all done to make the Vamps & their friends all über-kewl in comparison to lowly mortals - I don't know - but the combat system still sucks (maybe even more than before), there are less Abilities, & generally a feeling of 'slimlining' to the point of a massacre.,,

Dear friend Potts, haven't you figured this out by now?

Of course WW wants the 'monsters' and 'inhumans' to be Uber Cool. It's the WW core theme, and why their target audince is people that hide in gothy or comic booky cliques and avoid the rest of people.

Most of their games de-humanize humanity. It makes the loser segment* of the gamer population happy, as it's generally humanity that gives them grief.

Don't believe me? The original WoD made it's break by allowing you to be, in one form or another, a creature removed from and above the masses of humanity. They were 'sheep', or 'the herd' or 'sleepers'. You didn't want to be human, human was lame. And when they came out with a book for humans (Hunter), you still had to have 'powerz' and they drove you nuts.

Trinity/Aeonverse focused on humanity. So did Adventure. But, still, you had been changed, no longer quite human, in the case of Psions, you actually had alien DNA in your body now. And need I mention how far removed form humans you were in Aberrant?

Then Exalted. Oh, how I love Exalted for the power level, the epic battles, and the Final Fantasy style screw you hippy combat and setting. Of course, to play anything that will live you have to be an Exalt. There was not even decent rules for playing mortals as PCs until the Player's Guide. Play a mortal, be killed by some Rat God. Be eaten.

White Wolf, for all it's attempts at art, is one of the most liberal game companies on the market, and in the insane liberal** sterotype, they spend most of their time wanting some vindication that humanity is bad. As such, to be a human in their games, is, well, lame.

Thesis aside, my impression of the new WoD rules was that WW has seen how well the d20 system has, for good or ill, expanded the market of gamers. It did this with a system that is insanely easy to learn, (Dah, I roll this and add this to get more than this. I can do that. Dah.) and White Wolf problaby wanted to do something similar to increase market share. However, with the new 'd10 system' as I call it, theyt made it too simple, and that is where they did their old fans a diservice.

*(Yes, I know not all gamers are losers. I own a house, pay my own bills, and raise my kids. Others here are in graduate school, or other similar programs. However, there is that Large-Portion-Of-Gamedom that adds truth to our unfortunate sterotype. You know them, they are the ones working part time at Burger King and living in their parent's(s) basement rent free cause to have a life would remove money form buying RPG books.)

**(There is such a thing as Democrat, Liberal, and the majority that are normal, free thinking and reasonable Americans. I'm ok with them. Then there is the Insane Minority that somehow has taken over and is killing the party. I'm just as screwed on the Republican side now that the Christian Right has taken that party. As an Objectivist, I'm screwed with either side of the ticket. )

[Bahamut810]

Good to hear from you again Ops!

Does anyone have an update on this? Anyone actually read Vampire? Heck...better yet...anyone hear about any of the other supernaturals coming out?