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Rites of Passage


Asbjørn

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Since you're all creative, bright and helpful individuals and I bet at least a few of you have played or ST'ed Werewolf: The Apocalypse, I figured you might be able to give me a few ideas.

I'm running a Werewolf campaign now where the characters are basic stereotypes from every american high-school movie you can imagine. I've got the jock, the cheerleader, the geek, the freak and the teacher's pet. The only thing that sets them apart from all these movies is that they're werewolves, a fact they've just realized. The whole story - at least so far - is intended to revolve around their training and the gradual acceptance into Garou society, as well as all the problems they're faced with in their 'normal' lives.

The Rite of Passage will be either the climactic ending of the story, or the launching point of a whole new story. I haven't decided yet, but either way: It has to be a good one. Here's where I feel that WW is letting me down. Now there may be stuff I haven't read, but I'm kinda in the blue when it comes to how they picture these ceremonies to go, and that's where I need your ideas.

So far I'm thinking of running the Rite in two parts. First the individual cubs apply for a place with the tribe of their choice. For three of them this choice will be pretty obvious since they're two silver fangs and one pure bred wendigo, but I'm not sure what the other two will choose yet. Anyway, provided they pass the Tribe Totem's test, they will be presented to the Ritemaster as the respective tribe's candidate, and they will be given their Rite of Passage together. This part will be some kind of quest, expertly tailored to measure their capabilities in their various auspice fields, as well as their teamwork skills, of course. I just haven't thought it up yet... I intend to give them their gifts during the rite, the tribal gifts in the individual part and the others as various spirits in their quest approve of them. If they screw up and fail the whole thing, the gifts will simply be revoked - if they survive.

The sept is made up of Silver Fangs, Wendigo, Fianna and Get of Fenris (a potentially explosive mix, I know), and all of these may be chosen by the players. The Fenrir will of course have a test of battleskills and courage, which is easy enough. For the Fangs I picture having the characters scale an impossibly high umbral cliff to reach the falcon's nest on the top, their success or failure depending largely on their attitude to the responsibility of the tribe. For the Wendigo I feel a test of stamina is fitting, proving capable of enduring the cold and hardship of the winter storms, but I'm not sure how to make that an enjoyable roleplaying experience. For the Fianna I can think of loads of appropriate or at least plausible tests, but I've yet to come up with the test that really captures the tribe's essence. Playing that you have what it takes to brag, drink and fight is easy enough, but that's not all the Fianna are about, and it's hard to come up with a test for those skills...

So: Have any of you run any Rites of Passage? How did you do it? Any ideas?

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For the rites of passage...it looks good. A good Fienna test would be to tell the story of the other players. He goes with each and watches them (mabey add a paw of help) then its his job to start *their* tradition.

Somethings you may want to consider...

1. They have to clean out a small Wyrm Caern and claim it for the tribe.

2. They could be set up for a loyalty test, can the wyrm corrupt the young (this would be particularly good for Silver Fang IMHO)?

3. They may have to scour the Umbra in a game of Totem-go-seek. For the pack totem, not their individual breed totems.

I could come up with more, but I would want to know what breed the Rite Master is (probably a fienna...but not nessissarily).

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For the rites of passage...it looks good.  A good Fienna test would be to tell the story of the other players.  He goes with each and watches them (mabey add a paw of help) then its his job to start *their* tradition.

Nah. For a galliard, yes. But it's hardly the Fianna's position to be a passive eyewitness to the other tribes' greatness...

1.  They have to clean out a small Wyrm Caern and claim it for the tribe.

Way too heavy for a pack of cubs the sept doesn't even know if they can trust yet. They haven't been accepted by the spirits as part of the Nation, and sending them off on a mission that could be vital for the sept's survival isn't good. Never send a boy to do a man'sjob... ::wink

2.  They could be set up for a loyalty test, can the wyrm corrupt the young (this would be particularly good for Silver Fang IMHO)?

A faked test, possibly. Actually throwing real deceiver wyrmspirits at them is asking for trouble. Would be pretty stupid to loose your new warriors to the enemy in a situation you set up yourself... Kinda hard for the Master of the Rites to explain that to his elder. ::lookaround

3.  They may have to scour the Umbra in a game of Totem-go-seek.  For the pack totem, not their individual breed totems.

Possibly, but that's another story in my opinion. First they have to worry about actually becoming Garou. Then they can worry about packs and totems.

I could come up with more, but I would want to know what breed the Rite Master is (probably a fienna...but not nessissarily).

Silver fang. Top ranking Ahroun, Galliard and Theurge are Silver Fang. Top dog Philodox is Fianna and the Head Honcho of the Ragabash is Get of Fenris.

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It is important to get them to do something worthy and dangerous without making it too dangerous. At the same time it's quite cool if the storyline spirals out of the rite initiator's control. Something like "Find what happened to 'Howls at Sycamore Seeds' he was last seen heading towards Central Park looking for something or other.

Do this and the players will feel that they have done more than just pass a test.

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Nah. For a galliard, yes. But it's hardly the Fianna's position to be a passive eyewitness to the other tribes' greatness...

Fair nuff. Im just used to playing the Galliard Fienna ::blush

Way too heavy for a pack of cubs the sept doesn't even know if they can trust yet. They haven't been accepted by the spirits as part of the Nation, and sending them off on a mission that could be vital for the sept's survival isn't good. Never send a boy to do a man'sjob...

I wasent meaning anything major...more like a 1 dot caern that has just been discovered and has a couble "kobold" level baddies in (i.e. easy kills). While it would be reletivley easy to do, the honor and such you get from reclaiming on is a lot.

A faked test, possibly. Actually throwing real deceiver wyrmspirits at them is asking for trouble. Would be pretty stupid to loose your new warriors to the enemy in a situation you set up yourself... Kinda hard for the Master of the Rites to explain that to his elder.

Thats what I was thinking. A fox spirit would work wonders here ::devilangel

Possibly, but that's another story in my opinion. First they have to worry about actually becoming Garou. Then they can worry about packs and totems.

technically they are Garou as long as they can change ::wink . But I see what you mean. I was thikning that this could be a spiritual "Alice in Wonderland"-ish type test for htem.

Silver fang. Top ranking Ahroun, Galliard and Theurge are Silver Fang. Top dog Philodox is Fianna and the Head Honcho of the Ragabash is Get of Fenris.

Yea...lotsa courage on this one. Mabey you could set up 13 tests, kinda like the dark spiral but for the Wyld and not the Wyrm? I dunno...Just tossin out suggestions here. Keep us update with what you choose!

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... The Fenrir will of course have a test of battleskills and courage, which is easy enough. For the Fangs I picture having the characters scale an impossibly high umbral cliff to reach the falcon's nest on the top, their success or failure depending largely on their attitude to the responsibility of the tribe. For the Wendigo I feel a test of stamina is fitting, proving capable of enduring the cold and hardship of the winter storms, but I'm not sure how to make that an enjoyable roleplaying experience. For the Fianna I can think of loads of appropriate or at least plausible tests, but I've yet to come up with the test that really captures the tribe's essence...

Hmmm - it looks like you're really focusing on physical tests here - although the bit about responsibility hints that such tests have a more metaphysical side to them. I guess it all depends on the aspects of the game you're trying to emphasise, but a more spread out physical / mental / social variety of tests may be an idea (especially if some PCs aren't particularly physically orientated). Of course, if it's all in the Umbra, then many traits can be tested in a way that 'manifests' as a physical test - even if physical stats aren't used.

In theory a rite of passage should prepare the individuals involved for the roles & responsibilities of their new lives. In such an RPG context, it's important that the lessons presented & learnt in such a rite are actually those that will prove useful for the PCs at a later date. I recall the 'Accelerated Training Program' scenario for the Robotech RPG that a friend of mine ran - we all had an excellent time during the training, but when we hit our first 'real' mission afterwards it turned out that all the tests presented in the book meant diddly-squat in the context of the actual game: our enjoyment of the training program was marred by the fact that it was a self-contained stand-alone exercise with no real point to it in the long run.

Anyway, I'm sure you know all that already - back to the Werewolves:

One of the best things about the various Werewolf tribes is that they're ripped-off... er... 'based on'... various real-world ancient cultures. Your best bet is to do some research into ancient Celtic, Norse, Inuit, Russian (that's where the Silver Fangs come from, right?) etc. rituals, rites, tests, quests, etc. & steal... er... 'adapt' them for your Rites of Passage. Hopefully that'll get across the real 'flavour' of the tribes, without the Rites devolving into a copy of a bad Hong Kong Martial Arts flick training sequence (grasshopper ::halo ). Having said that, I did once run a Rite of Passage for a Stargazer character that was pretty much exactly like a training sequence from a bad Hong Kong Martial Arts movie - but that's the Stargazers for you... ::wink

Also think about what the phrase 'Rite of Passage' actually means - after these tests, the PCs are 'cubs' no longer, but are to be trusted as fully-fledged members of society. I.e. - the other Garou aren't about to let anyone in who they don't think can cut it: it's kinda' like a driving test in that respect - if you're not up to it, then you don't pass. I guess I'm saying that the tests should be serious enough that the PCs realise that afterwards they won't have any excuses for fouling up 'in the real world'.

Personally I find that tests that test the players, as well as the characters, are the best. If the test can be passed with just a few lucky dice rolls (like most combat-related tests or physical tests) then it's pretty much pointless. The best tests, IMHO, are those in which the characters can only pass if the players manage to get into the appropriate Garou mind-set. This means, of course, that the ST must have a pretty good handle on what a Garou mindset is - but I'm sure you're on top of that one already ::wink .

For example - a 'moral' test in which the PCs have to choose between saving a human baby or saving a wolf would be an obvious such test - to human morality saving the baby is the most important thing; to werewolf morality saving the wolf is the most important thing (the baby is important as an innocent, but is less important that the wolf is, because humans are so much more common, & more destructive of Gaia, than wolves).

Deciding what to do with a human child who is Wyrm-tainted, yet innocent of any crime & pleads for its life, would be another example (great stuff for the prospective 'judge' characters in the group...).

Considering the Garou may well want to test the PC's loyalties as well, a trial in which the cubs have to cause suffering for their human families & friends - for the overall good of Gaia - could be a good one. After all, on many levels, Garou 'society' is pretty much like a real-world 'cult' (just with the difference that the freaky stuff it 'preaches' is, on some level, actually 'real'). E.g. what does the PC cub do when ordered to destroy the industrial plant that's the local town's main source of employment - where his family & friends all earn their livings? Or what if he's told to murder a popular & kind local doctor because he happens to test his experimental anti-cancer drugs on animals? After all, from a human point of view, werewolves are not the 'good guys' - they're blood-crazed monsters or, at the very least, eco-terrorists. How about being told to kill your lumberjack father - the nicest man you could ever meet - because he's 'angered the tree spirits'? ::devil

So - in summery - my suggestion would be to test the character's Garou-selves, not their athletic prowess or other dice pools.

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Here is one of my Rites of Passage (beware, it is not for all groups allthough it was fun when we ran it).

The players are set up to do chores around the caern (in my particular case they had guard duty (two players), truthcatcher assistant (one player) and ritemaster assistant (again, one player)). Now, they had this during a whole ingame week, (I talked to them away from the other players ) and during this time they where subjected to verious forms of temptation (all whom looked innocent). All broke there dutys.

Now is where the real rite of passage comes in. I designed there temptations so that they would break them, and after there chores are done the septs truthcather gathered them around the campfire, where he made them judge over the hypotetical consequences of there packmates actions...

It ended quiet interestingly with the packs alpha being choosen (a glasswalker ragabash) becous he could resist temptation and cooly tell the truthcatcher that he did wrong.

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It is important to get them to do something worthy and dangerous without making it too dangerous.

Agreed, and I also think that's the NPC's challenge as well as the storyteller's. There has to be real risk, but I think the risk should be for the cubs, not for the sept. They may be given an actually important quest, but if they are I think the rest of the sept would be keeping a closer eye on what they're doing.

At the same time it's quite cool if the storyline spirals out of the rite initiator's control.

Again, I agree. But it can't always be that way, can it? I want to run a Rite of Passage that is tense and exciting without going wrong. I remember I played an official WW Rite of Passage once that went like that. The whole thing goes wrong, the cubs land in the shit, save the day and are accepted into the nation. I kept thinking what the hell would have happened if things went according to plan? So that's what I'm aiming at this time.

In theory a rite of passage should prepare the individuals involved for the roles & responsibilities of their new lives.

Hopefully not just in theory. I try to emphasize the various auspices' role and function in the training I run them through, and the 'final exam' will definitely have an element of testing them on those things. They will have to show that they understand the value of teamwork and their own place in the team.

One of the best things about the various Werewolf tribes is that they're ripped-off... er... 'based on'... various real-world ancient cultures. Your best bet is to do some research into ancient Celtic, Norse, Inuit, Russian (that's where the Silver Fangs come from, right?) etc. rituals, rites, tests, quests, etc. & steal... er... 'adapt' them for your Rites of Passage. Hopefully that'll get across the real 'flavour' of the tribes, without the Rites devolving into a copy of a bad Hong Kong Martial Arts flick training sequence (grasshopper  ).

I've been thinking a lot along those lines, but the trouble is that - as far as I can tell, anyway - at least the Norse and Celtic traditions are mostly physical tests. I don't know squat about Inuit culture, but the Wendigo also draw heavily upon north american Indians, and there's a lot to look at there. In general their rites have the 'visionquest' twist as well as - or in combination with - the physical tests, but that's just another way to spell umbra and doesn't really help me with the theme.

That said, I've given some thought to the rollplaying dangers of running purely physical tests, and I am trying to avoid it. The Get test, for example, will be very much about their view on weakness and mercy. That one is actually the easiest to complicate, I think. It's a lot harder with the Silver Fangs - where there really isn't much of a test at all, you just have to get Falcon's approval - or with the Wendigo - who only cares about his children being fierce warriors and willing to die for the once Pure Lands. I'm trying to figure out some clever dilemmas/riddles/questions for them, but haven't gotten very far yet. Good thing the Rite is a few months of game time away... ::rolleyes

Actually, one of the major reasons for doing the tribe part separately is to give all the players an even stronger feeling of having joined the best tribe. That part of the rite is where the various tribes put the finish on their own ego, and I hope to make all the characters a little more proud and arrogant afterwards...

Also think about what the phrase 'Rite of Passage' actually means - after these tests, the PCs are 'cubs' no longer, but are to be trusted as fully-fledged members of society. I.e. - the other Garou aren't about to let anyone in who they don't think can cut it: it's kinda' like a driving test in that respect - if you're not up to it, then you don't pass. I guess I'm saying that the tests should be serious enough that the PCs realise that afterwards they won't have any excuses for fouling up 'in the real world'.

Absolutely, which is why I've been repeating to all the players that they very well might die that session. Normally I don't like killing off characters, but in this case I'll just have to be brutal.

I have this one image in my mind of the pack somewhere along the way. They're aware that they're being watched by the sept, and at one point the Ahroun sees his own father - also a Garou - among the watchers. Suddenly a devastating attack from some kind of bad guy/monster hits him from behind and as he feels his guts spilling out on the ground and tries to brace himself for the next attack from this very real and very dangerous enemy, he knows that his father saw the ambush all along and didn't give a single hint of warning. Should be a pretty powerful way of saying "You're on your own, kids...".

Garou vs human loyalties is an important point, but unfortunately one where I've made my work harder... They all live in a small town in Arkansas and have been raised there because there is a caern nearby and there are many kinfolk in the area. At least three of the cubs have kinfolk families, and one of them has a father who is among the ranking Garou, so werewolf/family conflicts will be problematic. Lessons about the value of human life will have to be with strangers - since the sept doesn't want to shit where they eat, metaphorically speaking - which of course will reduce the impact.

Of course, I have to explore that aspect of murder and violence before the Rite. The cubs have to know and understand - in theory - that they may have to kill mostly innocent humans because the cause demands it. Getting to that point from your average american teenagers is the really interesting roleplaying challenge, I think. If I do get them to accept that, the reaction to actually being told to kill will be 'Can I really do this?' rather than 'Hell no! I didn't sign up for this!'

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The most powerful tribe?

Hmmm...I was working on a Changling campaign one time.

They get sent to a small umbral relm (controlled by the pack alone). It is a huge desert with a large tablet in the middle of it. The tablet (in my version at least) says "Use the moon to advance" with a slot underneath the words to a small sphere to be inserted.

First task: Find a perl in the middle of the desert.

They find the perl through their various methods (up to you and the players), they are lifed on a stone slab that is under the sand in front of the tablet to a large playform in the sky. on the platform are 5 things. One table with 4 indentions in it and a plaque that says "Pass the tests to continue home". It also has 4 stone slabs large enough to be a foot longer and wider then your biggest PC, one in each corner. Each slab is black, and polished to a shine. When one is touched it acts likea pool of water, and they can be entered. In front of each is a word (, Courage, Cunning, Strength, Intelligence).

Second through fifth task: Pass the tests of (you guessed it) Courage, Cunning, Strength, and Intelligence.

After each test, they will find a stone through one means or another (your tests you pick...I never got all the tests done).

The stones fit on the table indentions and a portal will open up to go home.

Take this for what you will. I was just playing wiht the idea myself (got bored and started drawing diagrams and such, and adapted them to a game). But it might be what you are looking for (self contained, the sept can stop it whenever they want, you could add some captured wyrm spawn if you want).

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1) Professor: If it's a morals test, then it should WHY they chose what they did, not WHAT they chose. Read: I can defend choosing the human baby over the wolf pup and vice versa; going by Red Talons standards only makes it easier, ironically. If you are truly interested in trying someone's morals, then you need to know why they chose a particular path; the path itself is immaterial...

2) Bahamut: Re: The Perl of the Desert: If you had a Glasswalker, this would have been far too easy given that most Glasswalkers take advantage of their technical gifts. I'm thinking something that would parse out the oasises::biggrin ...(Sorry; playing Spelling Nazi could not be avoided....)

3) As for the Wendigo: Two notes: a) Given their relative pure-bred and spiritual nature, the visionquest should have already been taken care of, so as to avoid issues (such as throwing way too much stuff at the pup at one time).

B) Given the need for their need to prove their abilty to survive (more of a Wendigo thing than Native American), give the him one week to prepare, then throw him buck-naked into the wild, with a week to get to a particular spot, no going ito the Umbra. It may surprise you what the player does (best case would involve setting up a cache ahead of time; preparedness being a major part of survival after all ::biggrin ...)

FR

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For Celtic-type ideas you could try taking a look at the 'Sláine' strip from 200AD - The Horned God is especially good; with the hero's quest to become the Horned God contrasted with the usual antics of a 'Sun hero' - & the new way of looking at things he needs to develop in order to do so.

A good scene is where Sláine enters the Cauldron of Blood in order to commune with the Goddess:

"You have taken the first steps in seeking my advice... in questioning the world you live in & its values... not accepting them with blind faith." The Goddess Danu, from Sláine: The Horned God

Maybe a test could involve the pups needing to actually question the orders they are given - to realise that the macho-style 'see Wyrm-thing, kill Wyrm-thing, grab the Renown' that stereotypes Werewolves in the WoD isn't actually what Gaia wants of them at all - that action without thought or respect is as much a wrong path as inaction?

Sláine has to fight the 'sea demons' at one point, but they can only be defeated by overcoming one's own 'mental demons' - he needs to see himself as the Goddess's consort, not her master, to accept the idea than men aren't naturally meant to be dominant, & to reject his own need for power & glory. In Werewolf terms this would be a way to define the character's relationship to Gaia - they don't get to act all tough & do what they want in the name of 'protecting Gaia', but rather they're there to accept her ways & work in partnership with her.

One interesting tid-bit is that Celts gain status by giving things away - the more valuable, the more status (Sláine gives away his entire tribe at one point in the story - an act so impressive that it can't be argued with): an appropriate test could revolve around sacrificing a valuable Fetish, or pack leadership, or something else important to Garou when the character won't directly gain from the loss (but the pack / tribe / nation will, in the long run).

Generally the whole story is pretty 'Werewolfie' - IMHO. ::wink

For Norse ideas the various adventures of Thor & Loki are worth a look: such as the story of when Thor instructed his servants to be careful of the goat bones whilst eating a meal - but one disobeyed & cracked open a bone to suck out the marrow - when the god restored the goats to life the next day he noticed one was lame (& was less than thrilled that his orders had been disobeyed)... Or the time that Thor & pals lost various challenges - an eating contest, a foot-race, a drinking contest, a challenge to lift a cat's paw, & a wrestling match with an old, old man - only afterwards, when they admitted that they'd been outclassed, was it revealed that they had really been trying to eat wildfire, outrace thought, swallow the ocean, life a massive sea serpent, & wrestle with old age!

Mythology is peppered with that sort of stuff - ideal fodder for Umbral-type tests & quests, & examples of where 'physical' tests actually conceal tests of character - of honesty or humility & the like.

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For Celtic-type ideas you could try taking a look at the 'Sláine' strip from 200AD - The Horned God is especially good; with the hero's quest to become the Horned God contrasted with the usual antics of a 'Sun hero' - & the new way of looking at things he needs to develop in order to do so.

Never heard of that story, at least that I can remember. I'll look for it...

[...] a wrestling match with an old, old man [...]

It's an old woman, at least in all the versions I've read. ::wink And in the eating contest the opponent is wildfire. But I see your point, and believe me I'm using lots of norse mythology for the get. At least the parts that don't make fun of brute strength...

1) Professor: If it's a morals test, then it should WHY they chose what they did, not WHAT they chose. Read: I can defend choosing the human baby over the wolf pup and vice versa; going by Red Talons standards only makes it easier, ironically. If you are truly interested in trying someone's morals, then you need to know why they chose a particular path; the path itself is immaterial...

I disagree. If they chose wrong, they're out. If they chose right, they might still be out if they chose it for the wrong reasons. There are right and wrong choices, and the young candidates had better hope they agree with the leading NPCs on which is which.

a) Given their relative pure-bred and spiritual nature, the visionquest should have already been taken care of, so as to avoid issues (such as throwing way too much stuff at the pup at one time)

In my opinion, no. The Visionquest as a defining experience for a young warrior is a ceremony that would not be bestowed upon anyone not accepted in the tribe, except in the case of new cubs. They may learn nothing in the quest, they may learn that theirs is another path entirely, or they may be accepted by the Wendigo, but that asking for acceptance I think should be the first visionquest experience for a young Wendigo-to-be. Summoning of spirits or adventures in the Umbra is something else, and not as personal as the visionquest.

B) Given the need for their need to prove their abilty to survive (more of a Wendigo thing than Native American), give the him one week to prepare, then throw him buck-naked into the wild, with a week to get to a particular spot, no going ito the Umbra. It may surprise you what the player does (best case would involve setting up a cache ahead of time; preparedness being a major part of survival after all  ...)

I'm planning on doing that to the entire pack, since I don't think survival skills are in any lower esteem among the other rural tribes. Everybody needs to know how to hunt, travel in the wild and live off the land.

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It's an old woman, at least in all the versions I've read.

I'll take your word on that - I just had a quick look in the ol' encyclopedia of Norse Mythology (I have a lot of books like that sitting on my shelves) ::wink .

And in the eating contest the opponent is wildfire.

Arrggghhh! I left out the 'out' in 'outeat wildfire'... So much for self-proofreading posts... ::rolleyes

In any case, you've now gotten me all interested & stuff - so is there any chance you could post what happens to the pups on their Rite when it actually goes down? ::thumbsup

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In any case, you've now gotten me all interested & stuff - so is there any chance you could post what happens to the pups on their Rite when it actually goes down? ::thumbsup

Will do. And I'll probably run my more detailed ideas by you as soon as I work through them. It pays not to underestimate the value of proofreading ideas as well...

It may take a while, though. I've had somewhere around ten sessions so far, and we've played something like two weeks of game time... ::rolleyes

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I disagree. If they chose wrong, they're out. If they chose right, they might still be out if they chose it for the wrong reasons. There are right and wrong choices, and the young candidates had better hope they agree with the leading NPCs on which is which.

Merely agreeing with their superiors isn't honor; that's brinksmanship. The ability to make an unpopular decision is a definite part of any honor system, as is the willingness to take risks. After all, both require personal bravery and and willing to suffer for the good of the group, which are viewed as great things, especially in a warrior society.

I can see going with the pup in general, but I can also defend the choice of the baby (after all, a mere human can save a hundred pups, as well as help breed them, as well as being more of a help to the tribe in general; either option can be as honrable or pragmatic as you want). My consideration here is that saving the pup merely to get in good with their superiors in dishonorable (doing an act for a reward isn't usually viewed as honorable, so much as simply pragmatic).

My point was that they needed to make a decision based on their beliefs, and to support that decision, not just guess which of their superiors they were trying to impress, especially the Wendigo (who have a general distaste for politics and lies of any kind) and Silver Fangs (who prefer bravery over politics; it's the "knight" thing). Now, if it were Shadowlords or Glasswalkers ::sly ....

In my opinion, no. The Visionquest as a defining experience for a young warrior is a ceremony that would not be bestowed upon anyone not accepted in the tribe, except in the case of new cubs. They may learn nothing in the quest, they may learn that theirs is another path entirely, or they may be accepted by the Wendigo, but that asking for acceptance I think should be the first visionquest experience for a young Wendigo-to-be. Summoning of spirits or adventures in the Umbra is something else, and not as personal as the visionquest.

Okay...

I think we're in agreement. For clarification's sake: I was just trying to point that, in response to:

In general their rites have the 'visionquest' twist as well as - or in combination with - the physical tests, but that's just another way to spell umbra and doesn't really help me with the theme.

that the visionquest (as part of a rite of passage) would have been taken care of just by being part of the tribe (the non-werewolf one), even though it would definitely have been paid attention to. After all, to be Wendigo you would need to part of the human tribe first, and you're not really part of the tribe until you've been initiated into the tribe; otherwise you're just another Wyrmcomer. The big part to keep in mind her is that the Wendigo would keep to the Old Ways, not the new ways (which don't have much in the ways of initiation).

Like I said, though, I think we're in basic agreement...

FR

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