Trinity RPG - Does Aberrant work in Trinity?

Sprocket · December 14, 2003

Re: Novas & Taint-

And some folks wondered why some of the "good guy" novas on Eden didn't want to have anything to do with Earth and the psions... ::laugh Everyone has limits as to what they'll put up with, and novas are no different. If the Colony had simply ignored the nova-inhabited worlds instead of sending a large fraction of his aberrant hordes to attack them, I'd imagine more than a few of those novas would've simply shrugged and said something like "Sucks to be them" when the Colony's attacks on human space began in 2104.

Re: Latter-generation novas-

Yes, the matter is very confused, isn't it? One one side, you have the long-term Trinity fans who like the idea of there not being any positive consequences whatever of erupting as a nova. On the other, you have the Aberrant fans, most of whom would much rather leave the idea of playing "characters that despite their great power are inescapably doomed" in the role-playing rubbish bin that is the World of Darkness.

If you want some clear rules on second- and latter-generation novas, check out "Taint Permutations" on page 68 of the Aberrant Player's Guide.

(Side note: It would appear that the Harvesters and other anti-baseline factions didn't like the idea that their offspring would resemble baseline humanity more than they did. My guess as to how they "rectified" the situation would be that they had Belladonna- the eco-nihilist cult leader- to use the Acquisition technique of the Ecological Supremacy power on them. The power is listed on pages 127-130 of the Aberrant Player's Guide And that's how the Harvesters' kids could inherit their parents' Taint while still retaining homo sapiens DNA.)

Uthnegentel · December 14, 2003

As far as I read the mechanics, you could get away with unlimited power and no taint on the side. How? you ask... ::dontgetit

As far as I can read it, there isn't a minimum crysalis score for entering crysalis. You could do crysalis at Cry 3 and as much XP as possible, lose your taint from high quantum, and go on from there. This isn't to mention the limitless possibilities from aberration transfer..... ::bigsmile

Anyhow, playing misunderstood Novas in the Trinity era would be bunches of fun. Like my lawful neutral Tannaruk on Faerun....

Heritage · December 14, 2003

Normal humans (Psi-neutrals) have a Psi of 1 - all living things do, apart from aberrants / Novas, which have a Psi of zero. You can't, technically, have a negative Psi - although that may well be what Quantum / Taint is, in some respects (but that's really just speculation).
Anyone with a Psi of zero is considered an aberrant (se the 'Psi Sink' merit in the TPG).

Whoops, you're right - that'll teach me so write about a subject I haven't read in quite some time! Yeah, Psi Zero is the scary number - and also a good name for a Trinity-era punk band, don't you think? ::biggrin

Hello Luna! We are PSI ZERO!

Whooooo! Alright!

Obsidian Shade · December 14, 2003

Taint:

There is also a temporal connection of novas / abbies and taint. The evolution of mankind does not stop, also you cannot see optical changes. But humans at 100 years later of the galatea disaster were different from the humans of the golden age. cause of that, they don't go mad inevitable when they erupt as novas / abbies.

Body and mind are not a vulnerable to taint as for hundret years. That is why you can keep playing a nova / abbie with taint 10 (Aberrant Corebook) in the trinity era.

Also causing this are the high quantum fields and areas of taint on earth.

Humans who erupt as nova / abbie in the trinity era on earth are of the second or third generation, even without nova / abbie parents.

But there is the possibility that they get massiv mental disorder. But this is something you can even watch at psions.

::rolleyes

Got that right am I? ::unsure

ProfPotts · December 14, 2003

As far as I can read it, there isn't a minimum crysalis score for entering crysalis.

"A player may choose to have his nova enter the Chrysalis at any point after her permanent Chrysalis trait reaches five." [Teragen, p.121, the first line of the 'Mechanics' section on Chrysalis]

This isn't to mention the limitless possibilities from aberration transfer.....

Which only transfers aberrations, not the actual Taint or Chrysalis scores (& associated social penalties) themselves - which is no real help at all when trying to avoid detection by Psions via Attunement. Still, makes you look all pretty again... ::wink

Yes, the matter is very confused, isn't it? One one side, you have the long-term Trinity fans who like the idea of there not being any positive consequences whatever of erupting as a nova. On the other, you have the Aberrant fans, most of whom would much rather leave the idea of playing "characters that despite their great power are inescapably doomed" in the role-playing rubbish bin that is the World of Darkness.

I'd have to disagree that it's that simple. What you have is text from all over the books that suggests different things about what a 'second generation Nova' is. The APG is one example. There's also the 'Creating Aberrants in Trinty' sidebar from the Aberrant core book (p.103), the fact that the Teragen call Novas who've been through Chrysalis 'second stage', & various Trinity references (which I'm sorry to say I can't give references to right now ::blush ). As we all know, the authers of the various books didn't see eye-to-eye on this stuff, so there really is no 'correct' answer.

As for Aberrant players not wanting to explore the power / doom issue - it's one of the central issues of the game, isn't it ::confused ? The whole reason for the Taint mechanic in the first place. "Unfortunately for novas, there are many ways for them to acquire Taint. They walk a razor's edge between power & insanity, might & destructive force." [Aberrant, p.148]

Unless, of course, the group just sees the Taint mechanic as a way to buy cheaper powers... ::wink

If you want some clear rules on second- and latter-generation novas, check out "Taint Permutations" on page 68 of the Aberrant Player's Guide.

Yeah - they're helpful optional rules if you want to run second generation Novas in the Aberrant setting, but even so, all they do is reduce the likelyhood of accidentally gaining temporary Taint - those rules do nothing for helping with permanent Taint. So a second generation Nova, using those rules, who starts play with a Quantum of 5, still has the permanent Taint dot which goes with it. To be honest, has anyone ever had a game where a character has gained enough temporary Taint to increase their permanent Taint Trait anyway? It's nearly impossible using the normal rules - these rules just make it slightly more impossible. Still does nothing to alter the fact that all Novas register as Tainted to Psions, & all Novas are capable of gaining Taint, & all Novas gain power much more quickly by gaining Taint as well.

Sprocket · December 14, 2003

Re: Incongruities between Aberrant and Trinity-

I'm well aware of how the various authors didn't see eye-to-eye on the issue of "all novas being doomed due to Taint". (According to the gossip, Kraig Blackwelder's ego was a major factor in that.) I see it as being very much like the incongruities between the various WoD games- the developers basically said that "this is the way that Quantum & Taint function, and anyone who says different is wrong". It's like they all conveniently forgot about "The Story So Far" when they went off to work on their respective games. Oh well... ::rolleyes

Re: The power/doom issue-

Yes the Taint mechanics do exist for a reason, and first-generation novas do gain Taint very easily. But looking at the default Taint mechanics in the Aberrant Core Book, a player character won't have to worry all that much about Taint unless the player makes decisions in the character design process that result in Taint accumulation. You know- buying high levels of Quantum or Node, buying Tainted powers/Mega-Attributes/enhancements/Quantum, and so on. There's also the fact that a nova can purge temporary Taint from his or her system with moderate effort, sufficient downtime, and a little forebearance. As you can see, it's generally either the reckless novas who end up racking up Taint due to their actions or novas who erupted with permanent Taint to begin with that wind up becoming aberrants in Trinity terms.

You might also want to refer to Alien Encounter: Invasion- there's a little sidebar on page 22 called "Taint in the Pit" that helps point out the difference between novas and aberrants. The Space Brigade inhabited Yeltsingrad for about a decade, and what little Taint they left in what would become the Pit was minute enough to fall well below the strict safety standards established in the latter years of the Aberrant War.

Re: Trinity-era terrans ever trusting novas-

Well, if baseline/neutral humanity wants to survive the Colony, it looks like they'll have to get over all that prejudice about novas. Of course, Trinity-era novas will have to get over their own distrust of Terran baseline/neutral humans as well... Both goals will be difficult in the extreme to achieve, but the alternative is certain death (or worse) at the tentacles of the Colony and its hordes of flunkies... ::devilangel (And if the Colony doesn't get them, there's always the Coalition and the Doyen...) ::hehe

Daredevil · December 16, 2003

ProfPotts:

“What 'non-Tainted' Novas? The Edenites? The Eden Novas have Taint - they just have less than the 'mad' aberrants.”

You know, that description of Appollo, where the Psion notes he has less Taint than a Sub-Aberrant, really confused me. Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t Sub-Aberrants have Taint 1 on the Trinity Player’s Guide Taint chart? If I remember this correctly, than he would have 0 Taint, or 0.5 Taint. ::laugh

”In Trinity terms a non-Tainted Nova / aberrant is impossible - because aberrants / Novas lack any Psi at all, & lacking any Psi means you're Tainted.”

Actually, I believe that the Trinity Player’s Guide has a flaw for Baselines with 0 Psi, and they are not considered Tainted, though I do not have my copy handy to double check. I believe this is supported in Trinity era Stalwarts, though, as according to Terra Verde, they do not register as Tainted, but do register as having 0 Psi.

”Just because the Edenites aren't as overtly nasty as the Colony, it doesn't mean they're any less of a threat to humanity in the long run. That's a lesson from history for most human residents of the Trinity universe - many of the 'nice guy' Novas turned into rampaging evil bastards during the Aberrant war.”

A very good point about the common people’s attitude! I think we sometimes (naturally) mistaken Aberrants for Marvel’s X-Men, being feared only because they are strange and powerful. The people of the Earth have a damn good reason to fear Aberrants, as they have a history (or at least a perceived history) of being highly unstable. Picture the shock of 9/11, and times that by a hundred.

“The best of the best, Pax himself, is considered a 'prime threat' to the people of the Trinity era - if he can 'turn to the dark side', then any of them can.”

Off hand remark: God, I wish we knew what happened to Ol’ Shelby! Who’s writing up his fate for Aberrant: War? I’d like to talk to them. Hell, if no one’s doing it, I’ll write it just so I can get some closer!

“They even have scientific evidence (research into Taint) which pretty much tells them that Novas becoming worse & worse over time as their powers grow & expand is an inevitability.”

I thought that Apollo mentioned that his group had developed methods to mitigate and reverse Taint? If I remember this correctly, did he mention this in his published interview? This might interest many people on Earth to at least see what the Edenites (sp?) have to offer. I know that in Asia Ascendant that one of the governments is seriously thinking about allowing the Edenites to eradicate one of the Aberrant forces.

“The closest thing you'll get to a 'non-Tainted Nova' in Trinity is a Stalwart.”

I don’t know. We haven’t gotten any official mention if the Quantum = Taint rule works only for The Colony’s Aberrant hordes or for all Novas. If it doesn’t, than in theory a non-Tainted Nova would register at 0 Psi.

Asia Ascendant notes that the Nihonjin Novas must be built with 0 Taint, and I always felt this was hinted to show how they go undetected when Psions visit Nippon.

Obsidian Shade · December 16, 2003

Caestus Pax was never the hero PU made out of him btw. Only the PR machine of PU avert that humanity could make a close look on this guy. ::angry

Daredevil · December 16, 2003

Yeah. He was listed as one of Slider's potential murderers in World Wide Phase II. ::rolleyes

Sprocket · December 16, 2003

There's also the case of a few "aberrants" mentioned in Terra Verde and Asia Ascendant. Read the "Aberrant Hunter" character template in the back of Asia Ascendant- the glowing nova that rescued his own hunter from that pit sounds a lot more like an Aberrant-era nova instead of your stereotypical "drooling homicidal maniac-freak" as presented in Trinity. Add in the whole "Process 418" scenario from Terra Verde, and the social equation that "Psi/Quantum equals Good-guys/Bad-guys" looks less valid by the minute. ::rolleyes

Besides, the common folk of Trinity-era Earth still have no idea that the Doyen exist. When the news of their existence, plans and activities is revealed, a lot of people will likely toss the aforementioned social equation right out the window... ::devilangel

ProfPotts · December 17, 2003

Ok, the only statistics I've seen for an Edenite Nova are those for Apollo Milliken in Stellar Frontier (p.125) - so let's take a look, shall we?..

... He has a listed Taint of 7 (which is pretty high I'd say - although not the 10 needed for 'Taint-induced insanity' in Aberrant). So he is very Tainted, just not riddled with obvious nasty-looking aberrations (which suggests that at least some of his aberrations are most like mental ones).

His stated goal is 'to help the unevolved masses of humanity until they can attain their full post-human potential' - in other words, he presumes that humans need to evolve, & that they're not good enough as they are; which is hardly a comforting position as far as the general lot of humanity goes.

His presumtion that he is better than 'normal folks' is totally natural to him - & all the more frightening for that.

His interest in humanity is stated as being based on 'scientific curiosity' - like a naturalist observing a group of apes perhaps? Again, not too comforting.

He regards Psions as 'worthy, post-human equals' - or, in other words, he automatically thinks of normal humans as not being worthy or equal to himself & other 'post-humans'.

Milliken can convert several tons of matter into destructive energy - which is what he (& his three pals) did to the Chromatic fleet attacking Karroo. Does this make him a pro-human hero? Hardly - it took nothing more than a strong thought for him to destroy those ships - no real effort at all. He could do the same thing to a fleet of Earth ships - the only thing to stop him would be his own interests & concerns. He killed an awful lot of sentient beings with that strong thought - & with his powers he could have just as easily defeated them but refrained from killing them. Not really the actions of a 'nice guy'.

His personality is described as 'well spoken, but often patronising' - again, an indication that he considers the masses of humanity as being 'beneath' himself & his fellow Novas.

When I look at Milliken I don't see a 'good guy' - I see a powerful egotistical man who thinks of himself as a 'god amongst ants', & who sees humanity as a cross between stupid primitives who can't get along on their own, & his own pet science project. I see a man with very little regard for life.

Just because Milliken is polite, it doesn't mean he's nice, safe, or even friendly to humanity. Even in his 'open letter' he states quite casually that he & his Nova buds rule over the humans on Eden. It doesn't even occur to Milliken that such rule is a huge step backwards for human socio-political values (the strong 'elite' ruling the weak 'masses') - he considers it a right. Like all people, he himself thinks that he's doing the right thing - & wouldn't consider himself evil - but is he really 'good' from the point of view of humanity? Does anyone think that Milliken would willingly return to the overall human race as anything but a ruler? The humans on Eden are peasants, serfs, or pets - well treated ones, to be sure - but no more free for the gild on their cage.

At the very least Milliken is a 'post-human' bigot - judging others not for who they are, but for what powers that possess.

There's an interesting comparison with the Aberrant era Teragen here, I think - the Colony et al are the 'Geryon' types of the Trinty era - obvious, violent, & direct. Milliken & pals are the 'Orzaiz' types of the Trinity era - nice on the surface, but just as threatening & dangerous if you scratch past that well-spoken veneer.

ezekiel · December 17, 2003

Sounds like he'd get along pretty well with Pathfinder... ::rolleyes

Just because Milliken is polite, it doesn't mean he's nice, safe, or even friendly to humanity.

That reminds me of a conversation I had with one of my philosophy teachers a few years back about the "polite nazi"...

Sprocket · December 17, 2003

And here's my latest volley of replies... ::biggrin

Re: Milliken's Taint trait-

ProfPotts, you obviously don't have a copy of the Aberrant Core Book on hand. The Taint trait used in the Trinity supplements is geared towards describing the likes of the Colony, Kali, and the late Yog-Death. In Aberrant terms, these really-tainted aberrants have 1 dot of permanent Taint for each dot of Quantum they possess. Apollo Milliken is not like that- as a first-generation nova, he uses the default rate of Taint accumulation set in the Aberrant Core Book, where the first unavoidable dot of permanent Taint is gained when acquiring a fifth dot of Quantum. Mr. Milliken would therefore have three dots of permanent Taint, and would gain his first low-level aberration when his Taint increases to 4. At that time, his Quantum will have risen to 8... ::smile

Bottom line: Trinity isn't really set up to handle the quantum powers of either novas or aberrants. If you want an accurate way to describe them, use Aberrant. ::cool

Re: "humanity not being good enough as they are"-

Well, why don't you take a good look at the roster of enemies that currently face baseline/neutral humanity? Aside from the Colony's hordes, you've got

> gods-only know how many Coalition space-arks wandering the galaxy,

> the Doyen, who are said to be in the process of deciding how to best eliminate all the varieties of humanity- including their psion stooges,

> plus gods-(and Storytellers)-only know what other threats are lurking out there, both in the rest of the Milky Way galaxy and the rest of the Aeoniverse.

That is nowhere near a safe environment for humanity to live in, friend. I'd say that humanity needs any and all advantages that it can grab hold of- psionics, quantum powers, heroic Inspiration, and whatever else is available. Besides, homo sapiens sapiens won't be around forever, no matter how good their technology gets. The best-case scenario is for humanity to spawn as many descendant-species of transhumans as is possible.

Re: Apollo viewing "normal" humanity with scientific curiousity & little regard for human dignity-

The simple fact of the matter is that Milliken likely has good reason to feel superior to "normal" humanity. Think about what it must have took for him and the rest of the Edenites (nova and baseline alike) to make a savage, untamed wilderness-planet into that nice little colony world that they now inhabit. If he and most of the other Edenite novas hadn't been "nice, polite, and safe", the Upeo first contact mission would've likely found a smoldering rockball instead of a thriving and pleasant human colony.

There's one final thing that you seem to be ignorant of in all of this: as far as Milliken is concerned, just because a person happens to be a baseline/neutral does not mean that one has to stay that way- unless that person wants to. Do you really think that the Edenite novas don't have a few (if not more) folks capable of performing the "Quantum Transformation" technique? ::wink

ProfPotts · December 17, 2003

Re: Milliken's Taint trait-
ProfPotts, you obviously don't have a copy of the Aberrant Core Book on hand. The Taint trait used in the Trinity supplements is geared towards describing the likes of the Colony, Kali, and the late Yog-Death. In Aberrant terms, these really-tainted aberrants have 1 dot of permanent Taint for each dot of Quantum they possess. Apollo Milliken is not like that- as a first-generation nova, he uses the default rate of Taint accumulation set in the Aberrant Core Book, where the first unavoidable dot of permanent Taint is gained when acquiring a fifth dot of Quantum. Mr. Milliken would therefore have three dots of permanent Taint, and would gain his first low-level aberration when his Taint increases to 4. At that time, his Quantum will have risen to 8...
Bottom line: Trinity isn't really set up to handle the quantum powers of either novas or aberrants. If you want an accurate way to describe them, use Aberrant.

Strangely enough I do have a copy of the Aberrant core book - I've even read it on occassion... ::rolleyes

Milliken is listed as having a Taint Trait of 7. That's the only 'bottom line'. You can presume, if you wish, that the authers really mean Quantum 7, & not Taint, but please recognise that that is an assumption on your part, & not what is written. As always, we're all free to run things as we wish, but all I'm doing here is going by the guy's published statistics. There's no reason to assume that he couldn't have a Taint that high - as you automatically have - & it's the only statistical information that I have on the guy, so it's what I'm going by.

The best-case scenario is for humanity to spawn as many descendant-species of transhumans as is possible.

Your (& maybe Milliken's) opinion, hardly fact - & very unlikely to be accepted by the baseline / neutral masses, based on the setting information we have about social attitudes in the Trinity era.

... Think about what it must have took for him and the rest of the Edenites (nova and baseline alike) to make a savage, untamed wilderness-planet into that nice little colony world that they now inhabit...

Hmmm... A small application of a couple of the higher-level Quantum powers could do it easily, & with very little effort on the part of the Novas. They haven't 'tamed' the planet in any case - just a small part of it.

There's one final thing that you seem to be ignorant of in all of this: as far as Milliken is concerned, just because a person happens to be a baseline/neutral does not mean that one has to stay that way- unless that person wants to. Do you really think that the Edenite novas don't have a few (if not more) folks capable of performing the "Quantum Transformation" technique?

I find being called 'ignorant' for my reasoned & explained opinions as slightly offense.

There's no reason to assume that any of the Eden Novas have Quantum Transformation. Milliken is meant to be one of the most powerful & he appears to 'only' have a Quantum of 7 - one short of the 8 needed to gain that particular technique. In any case, just because the technique is listed in the APG (& often crops-up as the twink's wet-dream of a power) that's no guarantee that any of those particular Novas would develop in that particular direction. Milliken's obsession with astronomy, for example, suggests no real reason why he would develop such powers. Since there's no published evidence to suggest that any of the Edenites have Quantum Transformation, then I'd actually presume that none of them do.

Sprocket · December 18, 2003

Re: Milliken's Taint trait-

The problem with that argument is that Trinity and its associated products were all released prior to Aberrant. From what I've gleaned from the developer's chats and forum postings, the Quantum/Taint mechanics presented in Aberrant were still being fine-tuned at the time Stellar Frontiers was released. Besides, just take a look at Milliken- he may be patronizing and all that, but he's by no means a monster of the Colony's caliber. Milliken's stats as presented in Stellar Frontiers were done using Trinity's old system for representing the Colony's ilk, so it's no surprise that they don't fit Milliken very well.

Besides, check out the setting material on page 44 of Stellar Frontiers. There you will see the records of vitakinetic Brian Ruiz's encounter with Milliken. Ruiz's psionic impressions of Milliken's Quantum and Taint were blatantly different from those of the aberrants that Ruiz was very familiar with. If Milliken actually had & Taint, you can bet that Ruiz would've sensed it immediately. ::wink

Re: social attitudes in Trinity-

As I recall from my history studies, popular opinion doesn't really count for much where the process of evolution biological or technological) is concerned. I'm sure that when they first appeared, Cro-Magnons were looked upon with just as much hatred and resentment by many of their Neanderthal contemporaries. The industries that supported the horse & wagon transportation technology loathed automobiles and those who drove them. And can you say that there's really much of a market for computers that use punchcards in the time of the Internet? ::cool

It's the same thing in Trinity- there'll be some reactionaries who will rail against cooperating with any quantum-manipulating human, but others will quickly see the benefits of nova/neutral/psion/etc. cooperation. ::smile

Re: the taming of Eden-

Taming the entire wilderness of Eden wasn't what I was referring to, Prof. What the Edenites did was establish a viable culture that baselines and novas could coexist in peacefully, and without undue exploitation of either type of resident. It takes a good deal more than clearing the land and raising buildings to make a city that works. ::smile

Re: Quantum Transformation-

My apologies, Prof- no offense was intended. ::biggrin

That said, there's no published reason why one or more of the Edenites shouldn't have that technique. If anything there's some setting material that indicates that they do! Take a look at the "Nihon" section of Asia Ascendant- the Nihonjin government has noted that Eden has many more stable, Taint-resistant novas than could be expected to erupt from their population of slightly more that 100,000 neutrals. The Zaibatsu didn't come to rule Nihon by being dumb- they've put two and two together, and came up with the conclusion that the Edenites can safely trigger taint-resistant nova eruptions. Take a look at the material, okay? This sort of inflexible "Quantum inevitably equals pure evil" doesn't seem to jibe very well with what the developers of Trinity intended. ::cool

ezekiel · December 18, 2003

couldn't Nova eruptions just be more common in Nova descendants? I'm assuming they aren't (or weren't at some time) all sterile but admittedly I know next to nothing about Edenites...

Obsidian Shade · December 18, 2003

many powerfull novas could also raise the rate of eruption in a population. some eruptions are triggered only because of the use of quantum energies nearby. no spezific quantum power had used to be necessary for this result.

ProfPotts · December 18, 2003

Besides, check out the setting material on page 44 of Stellar Frontiers. There you will see the records of vitakinetic Brian Ruiz's encounter with Milliken. Ruiz's psionic impressions of Milliken's Quantum and Taint were blatantly different from those of the aberrants that Ruiz was very familiar with. If Milliken actually had 7 Taint, you can bet that Ruiz would've sensed it immediately.

Yes - with 7 Taint he should have been detectable as a 'powerful aberrant' (TPG p.145), which requires only a single success on an Attunement roll. He should also radiate 'mild ambient Taint' to a radius of 20 meters, which would require two successes on an Attunement roll to detect. Yet that single example of text on p.44 of SF describes one Psion's lack of ability to sense Milliken's Taint at range, & that he appeared to possess only 'notably elevated taint levels' when scanned closely, & didn't have any physiological mutations. What gives? Even if we went by your presumption that his Taint Trait is actually a Quantum Trait, he'd have a Taint of 3 as an absolute minimum (if he's managed his powers really well over the last sixty odd years), which would be detectable anyway. Isn't that just a little bit fishy?

But wait - there is a reasonable explanation, & Milliken gives it to us himself, on p.47. "I could 'pass for human' if I desired" he states. He doesn't say that he always passes for human, &, in fact, we know that it's impossible for a Nova to pass for human without the Dormancy Background (see Aberrant, p.141 for all the details) - even without any Taint they're still distinctive & easy to spot. In the text on p.44 Milliken displays no Nova powers at all - the only reason he's spotted as a Nova is by the reaction of the locals to him. Since average Joe can spot a Nova as such with only a little effort, you'd think that trained Psion Joe could do it - but that Psion fails to do so. The only logical explanation (if we are to believe both SF & the Aberrant books) is that Milliken both possesses Dormancy (which 'internalises Quantum energies' & 'hides Taint & aberrations'), & was using it during that meeting. Mr Nobody wouldn't fit the details (the crowd wouldn't have spotted him, & that Enhancement doesn't reduce the Nova's Quantum signature), so Dormancy is the only reasonable explanation for what is described.

As I recall from my history studies, popular opinion doesn't really count for much where the process of evolution (biological or technological) is concerned.

Really? There have been loads of good technological developments (or 'evolutions') over the years that have been passed over due to any number of factors - from economic to political. Popular opinion is also the most vital factor in socio-political evolution, which is what we're really talking about here.

I'm sure that when they first appeared, Cro-Magnons were looked upon with just as much hatred and resentment by many of their Neanderthal contemporaries.

You're sure of that are you? 100%? Best send all those professional historians, anthropologists & archaeologists home them, 'cos none of them are sure. In actuality there are several competing theories on early hominid social patterns, & one that's gaining support (due to recent genetic evidence) is that many of the early hominids interbred - they weren't 'killed off' by more evolved rivals - they're still here in us. Okay - that's getting off topic, but the point is that you're not sure - you have an opinion.

The industries that supported the horse & wagon transportation technology loathed automobiles and those who drove them.

The petrochemical industries tried to prevent the development & acceptance of the (much better in all respects) electric car. Guess what - they seem to have succeeded! The tobacco industry tried to stop the banning of smoking, despite the overwhelming evidence that it does nothing good & everything bad to people & those aorund them. Guess what - they seem to have succeeded! Some so-called 'developed' nations still advocate the death penalty, despite the mountains of proof that it doesn't work as a deterant, isn't cost-effective, & is in all ways inferior to other forms of punishment & reform. Not all things that are 'better' get accepted.

What the Edenites did was establish a viable culture that baselines and novas could coexist in peacefully, and without undue exploitation of either type of resident.

Hmmm, yes. That's exactly what they'd have you believe, isn't it? Of course, the Æon society notes that the Novas of Eden have an 'ideology of post-human dominance', & the OOC text describes the society on Eden as 'benevolent despotism'. But hey, freedom & equality are sooo over-rated, right? ::sly

Let's see...

"The novas set wages, prices & production levels for all essential goods & services."

"The novas wrote the constituition..."

"... the novas expect to be treated with respect & deference..."

"In return for absolute control, the novas have made the planet incredibly beautiful & prosperous."

"... the novas have developed a fascist oligarchy..."

"The novas rule without question, making law & acting as judges (& executioners if necessary) when crimes are commited."

Yes - that's the sort of society we'd all love to live in, right? ::rolleyes It only works because the humans chosen to found it were all pro-Nova types, & the entire society has been geared-up around the idea of a two-tier caste system. The current humans inhabiting Eden have been raised that way for generations - they don't know any better. They can't even handle treating Psions as equals. At the very least Eden society as just as bigoted & set in it's ways as the rest of humanity.

That said, there's no published reason why one or more of the Edenites shouldn't have that technique. If anything there's some setting material that indicates that they do! Take a look at the "Nihon" section of Asia Ascendant- the Nihonjin government has noted that Eden has many more stable, Taint-resistant novas than could be expected to erupt from their population of slightly more that 100,000 neutrals. The Zaibatsu didn't come to rule Nihon by being dumb- they've put two and two together, and came up with the conclusion that the Edenites can safely trigger taint-resistant nova eruptions.

I'd have to agree with ezekiel & Obsidian Shade on this one. There are many more ways to increase the percentage of Nova eruptions than just one technique. A technique which wouldn't produce Novas who are any more 'Taint-resistant' than others in any case - that only occurs with Novas born of Nova parents - who themselves don't necessarily erupt, & if they do only do so when well into puberty (see Project Utopia p.138). 37+ Novas went to Eden initially, now they have 67. That's an extra 30, tops, over 60 years. One eruption per two years should be covered by a few dozen Novas shagging like bunnies, plus the natural increase in eruption likelyhood by close proximity to Novas & Quantum powers (see Aberrant p.117 amongst others), wouldn't you say? If one of them possessed Quantum Transformation, why haven't they followed their own doctrines of promoting post-human evolution & erupted the whole population. That just doesn't make any sense at all.

This sort of inflexible "Quantum inevitably equals pure evil" doesn't seem to jibe very well with what the developers of Trinity intended.

Really? Basing opinions on the published details available is being 'inflexible' is it? In any case, the only real point I was making was that there are no 'non-Tainted Novas' in Trinity. It's just impossible. I'd imagine that the Taint mechanic itself is designed so that 'Quantum inevitably equals inhuman madness' (not 'pure evil' - & no-one suggested that). If you can think of another ultimate conclusion to the process of gaining Taint, then please, feel free to enlighten me.

If in the Marvel universe, "Great power means great responsibility", then in the Aberrant universe, "Great power means vestigial limbs"... ::squid .

Obsidian Shade · December 18, 2003

@Prof

Think about Chrysalis. It is possible to decrease the Taint to zero. But with the price of aberrations. (and yeah, it's very hard to get there)

Sprocket · December 19, 2003

::laugh And on to the next volley...

Re: Eruptions amongst the Edenites-

There are three possibilities as to why Eden has many more taint-resistant nova residents than its demographics would ordinarily support:

1- Use of techniques that deliberately induce eruption, (the Edenites pick and choose neutrals to turn into novas, much safer than Divis Mal's scattershot approach)

2- genetic therapy of Taint-prone latent novas to make them taint-resistant, and

3- some Edenite novas might've actually had kids!

Re: Ruiz's assesment of Milliken's Taint-

Take another look at the passage from Stellar Frontiers, friend- Ruiz did detect "notably elevated taint levels" from Milliken, but also noted that Milliken had none of the aberrations commonly associated with that degree of Quantum".

Trinity, unfortunately, has a really messed-up definition of Taint that only applies itself well to describing the likes of the Colony. This is part of the reason that Trinity-era psions find the Edenites to be so bizarre- they are sane, civil, generally compassionate, and restrained in their behavior and the use of their powers. Uncontrollable, drooling lunatic freaks they aren't. ::smile

Remember, Apollo would only gain his first aberration at 4 Taint- as he's currently 7 Quantum/3 Taint, he's still intact in noetic terms.

Re: socio-political evolution in Trinity-

And the popular opinions of Earth's inhabitants will cease to be relevant when the Colony takes over the Solar System, enslaves the survivors, and turns them into sub-aberrant mutants. That is the most likely outcome of the game setting, unless a wild card (such as reconciliation with the novas) is introduced. ::wink

Re: Cro-Magnons-

Okay, I have an opinion- but so do you, and I haven't really slammed you for it. ::laugh Oh, this could go on and on...

Re: The acceptance (or not) of "better" things-

The thing is, better in whose opinion? The electric cars of the 1880s were good for the time, yes- but their support network (power plants and recharging stations) wasn't.

Re: freedom and inequality on Eden-

What you've failed to mention is that :

1- the baselines inhabitants provided considerable input and influence into all aspects of Edenite culture, including its' constitution,

2- court cases are first tried in front of a baseline jury- if that jury is deadlocked, only then is the case handed over to a nova judge,

3- the novas have absolute control because they have the quantum powers that are used on a daily basis to protect and aid the baseline Edenites, and

4- the novas' system has all of the benefits of a fascist oligarchy without any of the problems (secret police, restrictions on free speech, etc.)

Is Eden a Utopia? No, of course not! It is a working, stable, and sane civilization, though- not a bad feat for folks from the later half of the 21st Century. I mean, how would you integrate benevolent novas and baselines into a well-functioning society? ::cool

And if the Edenites have trouble adapting to Terran social customs, that's only to be expected. They've been isolated from Terran culture for 60+ years, and so haven't been able to keep up with the latest fashions in bigotry and prejudice.

Re: Why isn't Eden inhabited entirely by novas-

I'd imagine that the Edenite novas screen candidates for eruption very carefully. Not for their political leanings, but for their ability to handle life as a nova without falling prey to the recklessness and insanity that helped spark the Aberrant War.

Would you give devastating power over your world to some guy that was just picked up off the street? That sounds awfully irresponsible to me... ::smile

Re: "great power equals vestigial limbs"-

Prof, go read "The Story So Far"- it can be found in the paperback version of the Trinity Core Book or on White Wolf's Trinity site. As it's "Storyteller's-eyes-only" material you can consider it to be as "official" and "published" as it gets. Gaining dangerous levels of Taint is a possible consequence of erupting as a nova, not an inevitable one.

Great power does not have to mean aberration.

phoenix · December 19, 2003

Re: Cro-Magnons:

Opinion is only divided among the people that know what they're talking about. Everyone else still has one, of course, it's just that it's exactly what Jean Auel wants it to be.

Same with art and religious history - show me someone who's read The DaVinci Code and isn't suddenly a symbology "expert". ::wink

The tobacco industry tried to stop the banning of smoking, despite the overwhelming evidence that it does nothing good & everything bad to people & those aorund them. Guess what - they seem to have succeeded!

The argument against banning smoking is a matter of individual rights, not an argument that it's not really bad for you. The cigarette company's aren't that stupid.

The thing is, better in whose opinion? The electric cars of the 1880s were good for the time, yes- but their support network (power plants and recharging stations) wasn't.

Better not in anyone's opinion - better in fact.

Sprocket · December 19, 2003

::blink Sheesh... And to think that all these wild tangents developed from a debate over whether or not Aberrant could work in the Trinity setting! ::laugh

Aside from the rabid levels of anti-nova prejudice among the neutral inhabitants of Terran space (recently stoked to a new high by the Colony & Co.), there's no real reason that a crossover campaign wouldn't work. Given all the weirdness that's resulted from Process 418 (The Venezeulan Phenomenon), relatively taint-free novas are once again present on Trinity-era Earth. (They're likely keeping a low profile, though.) If that sounds appealing to a Storyteller and her group of players, there's nothing stopping them. ::wink

Obsidian Shade · December 19, 2003

what is this process 418? can anyone pm me for more and detailed information? i'm very interested ::rolleyes

Sprocket · December 19, 2003

Re: Process 418 info-

You can find detailed information on Process 418 in the Terra Verde and Asia Ascendant e-books, Obsidian. Terra Verde has the "nuts-and-bolts" of Process 418's various effects, while Asia Ascendant provides a historical background to Process 418 and it's two immediate predecessors (the Hammersmith Effect in 1922 and the Galatea Incident in 1998).

As for what Process 418 actually is? It's a quantum/noetic vortex, and is responsible for several eruptions of both Aberrant-style novas and Trinity-style aberrants, many cases of induced psionic latency and psychomorph manifestation, and the manifestation of a good number of Adventure!-style daredevils. Add in the wildly varied effects it's had on some of the already-manifested psions and aberrants on Trinity-era Earth, and you can appreciate why the psi orders were sweating over this for the last decade or so of game-time. ::devilangel

VictorHFrost KSC · December 19, 2003

It also triggers Mesmerists and Stalwarts of the A! set. Essentially after 418 any player class that is allowed at any time within the Trinity universe can be played reasonably within Trinity itself. The incident itself starts in Venezuela as some sort of unusual explosion in the jungle (likely at a Norca research facility) and the effects (basically a noetic reallignment of the galaxy at large) ripple out from Earth at that point, eventually impacting even the farthest colonies.

Jake

ProfPotts · December 19, 2003

Think about Chrysalis. It is possible to decrease the Taint to zero. But with the price of aberrations. (and yeah, it's very hard to get there)

Yeah - Chrysalis can reduce permanent Taint, but leaves the associated aberrations & social penalties for dealing with baselines. What the Taint reduction from undergoing Chrysalis actually does is stave off the madness associated with hitting a permanent Taint of 10 - that much is said in the Teragen book. Chrysalis actually is Taint - just a more controlled form of it (also said in the Teragen book). In any case, I seriously doubt that Milliken & pals use the Chrysalis mechanics - Chrysalis tends towards large numbers of physical mutations - which the Eden Novas aren't meant to display - & an inhuman mindset. Personally I feel that Chrysalis is more suited to the Colony & other similar aberrants, but that's another discusion entirely..

Remember, Apollo would only gain his first aberration at 4 Taint- as he's currently 7 Quantum/3 Taint, he's still intact in noetic terms.

You keep stating stuff like this as if it's fact. Can you please point me to the book & page which has these updated stats on Milliken - I'd really like to read them. If such a reference doesn't actually exist, then - as pointed out earlier - the concept that Milliken has a Quantum, not a Taint, of 7 is pure presumption on your part. I'm not trying to say that such a concept wouldn't work in a game of a certain type, just that it's not published material - which is what I'm trying to talk about here.

Take another look at the passage from Stellar Frontiers, friend- Ruiz did detect "notably elevated taint levels" from Milliken, but also noted that Milliken had none of the aberrations commonly associated with that degree of Quantum".

Which - as pointed out earlier - would be just what you'd expect if the guy was Dormed (it internalises Quantum & Taint & makes it harder to detect - it doesn't eliminate it entirely - hence no Taint 'radius' around the guy, & the Psion's inability to detect his Taint until a close scan was performed).

There are three possibilities as to why Eden has many more taint-resistant nova residents than its demographics would ordinarily support:
1- Use of techniques that deliberately induce eruption, (the Edenites pick and choose neutrals to turn into novas, much safer than Divis Mal's scattershot approach)...

Again - please point out the published material that allows 'deliberately induced eruption' which results in 'Taint-resistant' Novas. Quantum Transformation certainly doesn't.

... 2- genetic therapy of Taint-prone latent novas to make them taint-resistant, and...

References to this theoretical genetic therapy which creates Taint-resistance would be nice.

... 3- some Edenite novas might've actually had kids!

Yes - the only one of the three which actually has any published material to back it up, as far as I'm aware.

Uncontrollable, drooling lunatic freaks they aren't.

Who even suggested that they were? ::confused

Re: socio-political evolution in Trinity-
And the popular opinions of Earth's inhabitants will cease to be relevant when the Colony takes over the Solar System, enslaves the survivors, and turns them into sub-aberrant mutants. That is the most likely outcome of the game setting, unless a wild card (such as reconciliation with the novas) is introduced.

I guess the Psions should all just pack up & go home then, since there's nothing they can do to save the day in any case. Ho hum... & there was me thinking that those guys were the heroes of the piece - I must have gotten the wrong end of the stick... ::rolleyes

Re: Cro-Magnons-
Okay, I have an opinion- but so do you, and I haven't really slammed you for it.

I never actually give my opinion on the Cro-magnon thing, all I did was point out that you can't be sure about stuff like that, & that differing opinions exist. I guess I just have a thing about people stating opinion as if it were fact.

Re: freedom and inequality on Eden-
What you've failed to mention is...

Yes, that was deliberate - I was simple pointing out the many, many, negative factors that go with the 'false paradise' that is Eden society - not stuff I've made up myself, mind, but things that are actually in the book.

They've been isolated from Terran culture for 60+ years, and so haven't been able to keep up with the latest fashions in bigotry and prejudice.

Right - they've developed their home-grown local bigotry & prejudice instead. That's a huge improvement over the rest of humanity... ::rolleyes

Re: Why isn't Eden inhabited entirely by novas-
I'd imagine that the Edenite novas screen candidates for eruption very carefully. Not for their political leanings, but for their ability to handle life as a nova without falling prey to the recklessness and insanity that helped spark the Aberrant War.
Would you give devastating power over your world to some guy that was just picked up off the street? That sounds awfully irresponsible to me...

It's an interesting & viable idea (if you allow the Edenites access to Quantum Transformation), & makes a certain amount of logical sense. There's absolutely nothing to support that in the book itself though. If we're getting onto our own personal ideas here I've got a couple of bucket loads - but it's straying from the topic a bit.

Re: "great power equals vestigial limbs"-
Prof, go read "The Story So Far"- it can be found in the paperback version of the Trinity Core Book or on White Wolf's Trinity site. As it's "Storyteller's-eyes-only" material you can consider it to be as "official" and "published" as it gets. Gaining dangerous levels of Taint is a possible consequence of erupting as a nova, not an inevitable one.
Great power does not have to mean aberration.

I realise that you're not trying to be insulting here, but constantly telling me to go & read stuff as if I hadn't done so already (& still managed to form reasonable opinions) comes across that way. Please just stick to quoting references to what you're refering to - it's much more polite. Cheers. ::thumbsup

Re: Cro-Magnons:
Opinion is only divided among the people that know what they're talking about. Everyone else still has one, of course, it's just that it's exactly what Jean Auel wants it to be.
Same with art and religious history - show me someone who's read The DaVinci Code and isn't suddenly a symbology "expert".

Hah! As a theologian I felt kinda' that way when I hung out on the Demon forum for a bit when the game first came out. Had to spend a lot of time biting my tongue... ::wink

The argument against banning smoking is a matter of individual rights, not an argument that it's not really bad for you. The cigarette company's aren't that stupid.

I thought that was the point too, until a few weeks ago when the pro-smoking lobby over here in Britain poo-pooed the latest medical reports on passive smoking, & came out with some very silly-looking statements about how there was no medical evidence for smoking being bad for you or others. One of the top guys in the tobacco industry was on the radio saying that too. Just when you think they're not that stupid, they turn round & prove you wrong... ::rolleyes

Aside from the rabid levels of anti-nova prejudice among the neutral inhabitants of Terran space...

Except that the anti-Nova sentiments aren't really rabid, but are based on past experiences, & that the non-neutral Psions are the ones leading the battle against the Novas / aberrants.

... relatively taint-free novas...

Is that an admission that there are no truly 'non-Tainted Novas' in Trinity? ::sly

If that sounds appealing to a Storyteller and her group of players, there's nothing stopping them.

Yes - we all agreed on that from the outset. The topic was never really a debate to begin with, but a discussion - about the potential issues & themes that could come into play when using Nova characters in the Trinity setting. Hence all the comments about being spotted from several hundred kilometers away & shot before you could say, "No, wait - I'm a nice sort of an aberrant... honest!". ::wink

Obsidian Shade · December 19, 2003

back from reading asia ascendant, my brain is just inspired by this cool stuff an i am thinking over and over.

so i got a question which i believe belongs to the topic:

is there a power on earth who will try to use the new novas to get independent from the psi orders? i am not as much familiar with trinity as i am to aberrant, but the amerians were a little bit afraid of the psions, right? a secret nova-plan (small units of novas, who are monitored all the time) should be logical (and a nice series *g)?

phoenix · December 20, 2003

Hah! As a theologian I felt kinda' that way when I hung out on the Demon forum for a bit when the game first came out. Had to spend a lot of time biting my tongue...

lol, then your willpower impresses me - fortunately, you can't have that problem unless you have some form of knowledge in the first place.

But if there's ever a book written about a trumpet player that has adventures, they had jolly well better watch out to make sure their information is accurate! ::wink

Maybe the trumpet player can find the holy grail. ::rolleyes

I thought that was the point too, until a few weeks ago when the pro-smoking lobby over here in Britain poo-pooed the latest medical reports on passive smoking, & came out with some very silly-looking statements about how there was no medical evidence for smoking being bad for you or others. One of the top guys in the tobacco industry was on the radio saying that too. Just when you think they're not that stupid, they turn round & prove you wrong...

Hah! That's funny. But you know what I mean - the main reason it's legal to smoke is because it's a matter of individual decision.

Sprocket · December 20, 2003

And yet another volley of replies... ::rolleyes

Re: Apollo Milliken's Taint-

Reference 1: Aberrant Core Book, page 103, titled "Creating Aberrants in Trinity"- "The fundamental difference between the novas of 2008 and the aberrants of 2121 is the amount of Taint accumulated. For Trinity-era aberrants, each dot of Quantum translates to one point of initial Taint." This is radically different from the default Quantum/Taint ratio presented on page 148 of the Aberrant Core Book, which has a nova gaining his first dot of permanent Taint with his fifth dot of Quantum, provided that he doesn't take the cheap path to power provided by buying Tainted powers/Mega-Attributes/Quantum/etc. Treating Milliken as an Aberrant-era nova who took the slow road to power, this translates into 7 Quantum and 3 Taint.

This clearly shows the difference between Aberrant-era novas -such as Apollo Milliken (aka Colin Ingells, born 2002 in London, erupted 2025)- and the stereotypical "drooling-tentacled-freak" aberrants such as members of the Colony's hordes. The system that Trinity uses to respresent aberrants is inaccurate and misleading (no great surprise given that Trinity preceded the release of Aberrant by about two or three years), in that it makes little or no distinction between Quantum and Taint. It's pretty much a kludge-job, basically.

The main reason that Apollo Milliken's stats were never updated is that the proposed Aberrant: Nexus sourcebook was still on the drawing boards when all the Aeoniverse game lines were scrapped. In the absence of new published material, we've been left to evaluate the evidence by ourselves.

Re: Apollo Milliken and Dormancy-

While Milliken likely does have a few dots of Dormancy, there's no indication in the published material that he was dormant during his little chat with Brian Ruiz. Also, you seem to be thinking of Milliken as a standard Trinity-era aberrant. Here's a few PUBLISHED reasons (in excerpt) why that stereotype does not fit Milliken and the other Edenites: ::wink

>Asia Ascendant, chapter 2, last paragraph, "A New Age Now Begins"- "The astute reader will notice that some of the 'aberrants' in Terra Verde and this book don't seem much like the twisted freaks normally presented in Trinity supplements. That's because they are not in fact aberrants in the sense that any psion would mean the term..."

>Stellar Frontiers, page 43, Eden Ecosystem, last paragraph (quote)- "I must admit that Eden seems to be a healthy and thriving colony. Even living in close proximity with these Aberrants for more than 60 years has not harmed the residents! This data directly contradicts much of what we've been told about Aberrants, obviously, we must investigate further to discover the reason why."

>Stellar Frontiers, page 100, first paragraph of Eden entry- "...The standard history books record that betwen 2030 and 2050 every known Aberrant succumbed to the violent madness that is believed to be inherent in Aberrant Syndrome. Like many such historical 'facts', this one is false. Many Aberrants did grow violently psychotic and began a campaign of terror against humanity. Some managed to avoid this madness, though. For these sane Aberrants, the years after 2046 were difficult ones indeed. They sought refuge from the increasing anti-Aberrant hysteria that swept Earth. They needed safety for themselves and for thgose normal humans who remained loyal to them. Eden was one of those refuges."

>Stellar Frontiers, page 102-3, Establishing Eden- "...The sane Aberrants (who continued to call themselves novas) realized that no place in the Solar system would be safe... More than three dozen novas developed a plan to relocate to this new world (Eden) where nova and human could live in harmony... By the time of China's Ultimatum, Eden's leader, Diana Kadmon, declared that it was time to break all ties with Earth. They willingly remained exiled from Earth since that time, focusing their efforts almost exclusively on making Eden a true paradise. As a result of this restraint, the Aberrants on Eden remain both sane and relatively human in appearance... "

>Stellar Frontiers, page 40- "Aside from standing over two meters tall and having an odd facial structure (see page 125 for Milliken's picture to see what his face looks like), he (Milliken) looked human..." I know that some people are that tall, but "tremendous physique" is a common aberration amongst the more powerful first-generation Edenite novas, and one that Milliken is likely in the process of developing. If Milliken had been dormant, he would've shrunk a bit, yes?

Re: Quantum Transformation-

>Aberrant Player's Guide, pages 135-136- "Each success on the Quantum Transformation roll lets the nova add or subtract 3 nova points worth of freebies (freebie points) from the target... Two successes lets the nova add 1 Quantum to the target and have a nova point left over. This DOES induce regular, permanent, full eruption in someone who wasn't previously a nova." Since not all Aberrant games use Merits and Flaws, they weren't mentioned. The "Taint Resistant" Merit (APG, pg. 76) only costs 5 freebie points, so adding it to a willing target wouldn't be that difficult to accomplish. As there's also no material stating that Apollo Milliken is the most powerful Edenite nova, the possibility of Edenite novas capable of using Quantum Transformation is by no means outlandish. ::cool

Re: genetic modification-

>Aberrant Player's Guide, page 128- Ecological Supremacy, Adaptation technique- there's no reason that it couldn't be used on humans! ::devil

Re: the psions-

Once you factor in the impending arrival of the Coalition space-ark in the Solar System and the emnity of the Doyen, it's blatanty obvious that the prospects of both the psions and normal humanity are pretty darned bleak. The proxies are not immune to Doyen influence, and they see human psions as little more than convenient tools to be disposed of once they're no longer useful at best. Remember S. K. Bhurano and the Chitra Bhanu? (See page 30 of Terra Verde for del Fuego's take on the Chib Purge.) What makes you think that the Doyen will treat the other psi orders any differently, once they've outlived their usefulness?

Yes, the psions (most of them, anyway) are heroes- but if they can't see past the prejudice and hatred inspired by the Aberrant War and the Colony's troublemaking to ally with the sane novas, they will wind up as doomed heroes. The psions can't save Earth by themselves, and assuming that the Colony's forces aren't totally depleted after taking Earth, the nova worlds will be their next target.

The psions are heroes, but they're just not enough to save the day by themselves, and neither are most of the novas. It's a "united we stand, divided we fall" situation. Besides, isn't the whole theme of Trinity supposed to be "Unity"? ::halo

Re: "The Story So Far"-

No offense intended, Prof. But here's some excerpts from that article which I feel validates my position.

"During the Aberrant Era, a number of novas lose themselves in their tremendous abilities. They draw upon their power without a care, not recognizing the danger until it is too late. The mutations and madness that result would (and does) kill a normal human. But these warped Aberrants are sustained by the very power that taints them, growing ever stronger as they become more crazed… and less human."

(The Aberrant War)

"Conflict erupts as those novas who maintain control of their abilities try to restrain their mad siblings. Human groups aid both sides, but millions of innocents are caught in the crossfire. Finally, important individuals in certain nova groups, the Æon Society and in world government work together to find a final solution. The Chinese Ultimatum is the result."

"The Aberrants are variously tricked, threatened, chased and dragged from Earth by Æon and its nova and government allies. A scant number of novas and Aberrants remain hidden on Earth. Some novas volunteer to protect the Solar System from Aberrant incursion as the conflict continues in space."

"Unable to return to Earth, Aberrants and novas use their incredible powers to find and settle a few worlds in deep space. These planets serve as bases from which to launch their attacks on one another, and become home to many. The largest group of Aberrants denies its fate, though, and works ceaselessly to reclaim Earth."

"This band is led by The Colony, a rival of Divis Mal himself. The Colony’s intensive breeding and sustained taint influence swells the ranks of the creature’s forces. It decides the time has come to return to Earth. Instead of trying to break through the quanta barrier the novas maintain around the Solar System, The Colony strikes at the guardians themselves. Scores of Aberrants surprise the novas and The Colony prevails."

"The Colony learns from past mistakes, though. It wants to return home, but the victory won’t mean much if Earth is a cinder. The Colony also hopes to use its mutational ability (which it successfully passes onto some of its children, including Kali and Yog-Death; see Trinity: Battleground and Stellar Frontier for more on these two) to transform all of humanity into either full-fledged Aberrants or sub-Aberrant breeder stock."

"The Colony plans to cripple humanity’s defenses while making sure that novas aren’t around to help. It sends forces to harry known nova worlds, keeping them distracted. Back in our Solar System, the Aberrants start to draw a noose around Earth, attacking orbital locations and near-space colonies. Once those are subjugated or destroyed, the Aberrants will concentrate fully on Earth without worrying about outside influence."

That makes for some pretty clear demarcations between novas and aberrants, don't you think? The Colony might be a taint-warped abomination, but it isn't stupid. If the novas become allies of Earth and the psions, it's goose is in serious danger of being cooked. That's why it's sending it's forces to distract the novas from Earth, and its alliance with the Coalition was little more than stacking the deck in its favor. ::smile

Re: Cro-Magnons, opinion vs. fact-

Until they invent reliable & safe time travel, it looks like the whole "Neanderthals & Cro-Magnons" controversy will outlive us all. Some folks are even claiming that Neanderthals weren't a separate species of humans, just aborigines suffering from severe iodine deficiency! ::laugh

And as for your thing, Prof? That's okay, you're forgiven. If anything, it's helped keep this forum lively! ::wink

Re: bigotry and prejudice, freedom & inequality-

Actually, Eden's political setup IS an improvement! Remember- I'm living in a country where George W. Bush rules with John Ashcroft running his own version of the Inquisition. Frighteningly enough, most of the rednecks and "good ol' boys" in my area are very happy with the situation- the government tells them what's right, so that they don't have to bother with thinking for themselves. American civil liberties are likely to become things of the past, corporate bigwigs are getting filthy rich, lots of the local cops are corrupt, and many of my friends & their families seem to be getting poorer by the minute. Shades of the FSA... ::crazy

Face it- all human cultures have a class system, including the U.S. The only black folks you'll see in a Boston country club will (still!) be club employees, not guests. Eden's class system sounds a lot less onerous than one in which you're likely to be pulled over at gunpoint by a traffic cop for committing D.W.B./H. (Driving While Black or Hispanic). Of course, Eden's system wouldn't sound good at all to a baseline/neutral who's used to life in the upper strata of his own class system...

Given that Edenite novas and neutrals are existing in a benevolent symbiosis with little corporate exploitation of the populace, unrestricted freedom of speech, and a genuinely healthy economy, Eden sounds a whole lot better than the U.S. does right now! But then, you British have always been more optimistic than us Yanks.

Oh, one thing you might want to consider: suppose that you encountered one of the more civil novas in real life. How would you react? Most of my neighbors, sadly, would reach for their Bibles or shotguns whilst screaming in fear and anger. Eden's caste system seems to be designed to minimize the difficulties of nova/neutral interaction- everyone knows the rules of etiquette and follows them.

Re: Demon: the Fallen and your profession-

Given the cheerful irreverence evinced by some of White Wolf's staff, you'd almost think that they were doing that stuff you find objectionable on purpose... I guess it's a little tongue-in-cheek payback for all that "Satanic RPG" nonsense the fundamentalists and Geraldo Riviera were spouting off about up until the mid-1990s. ::hehe ::devilangel

Re: anti-nova prejudice-

And how long do you figure that the psions will be able to retain humanity's dubious favor once the Nihonjins' information on both the Nova Age and the extraterrestrial inflence behind the psions becomes public? (References- nihonjin databanks in Hidden Agendas page 10 sidebar; ET influence of psions in Asia Ascendant chapter 3 Nippon section, last paragraph before "The Novas".) The Nihonjin intended for their archives of Nova Age information to be found and read on a wide basis, and the threat of exposing the psions as alien-controlled puppets makes for one heck of a deterrent. ::devil

Also, there's these little tidbits (from Asia Ascendant chapter 3, Nippon section, last two paragraphs). "In Nippon information about the Nova Age is still quite accessible, primarily because of the limited impact of Project: Rewrite. While all Nihonjin hate and fear the returning Aberrants, many of them are still aware of the wonders of the early nova era and the vast amount of good these novas did for Nippon. As a result, most Nihonjin greeted the recent revelation of the nova-run colony on the planet Eden with considerably less skepticism than the citizens of most other nations."

"Eden is also of extreme interest to the Nihonjin novas and the researchers working with them. Since the Eden novas have clearly managed to safely trigger eruption in far more than one person in 5,000,000 (the base ratio is 1 latent nova for every 250,000 neutrals, with only 1 nova out of 5 proving to be taint-resistant), the Nihonjin government is eager to send scientists to Eden to exchange information. Also, some in the zaibatsu now hope that if stable relations can be established between Earth and Eden it might eventually be possible to safely reveal the existence of the Nihonjin novas and end the long period of secrecy."

Sounds like a group of recently-erupted novas on Earth might get a much nicer reception in Nippon than anywhere else on Earth, no? ::bigsmile

Re: "Taint-free novas in Trinity"-

Sorry, Prof, but it is NOT any such thing. Since most of the Edenites are first-generation novas, they use the default Taint rules from the Aberrant core book (on pages 148-151). That does not preclude the existence of second- and latter-generation novas, who use the "Very Low Taint" rules (Aberrant Player's Guide, page 68) and can have the "Taint Resistant" Merit (APG pg. 76) to boot. If you want an admission, you'll have to get in the ticket queue at your local movie theater. ::laugh

Re: Novas in the Trinity setting being shot on sight-

Actually, what you described sounds like what would happen if a group of novas from 2008-2015 were plucked from their time and dumped somewhere on Trinity-era Earth. They'd be too busy with trying to figure out where/when they are to bother with keeping their heads down, unless they were forewarned... ::lookaround

Novas who lived lives as ordinary citizens of Trinity-era Earth prior to their eruptions would fare better than that- they'd know the lay of the land and what kind of reception they'd be likely to receive from most other people they might encounter. If they're lucky, they'll manage to hook up with a Nihonjin Superior (See Asia Ascendant, Appendix: Nihonjin Technology) or an Upeo capable of interstellar jumps for some friendly exfiltration. Proxy Bolade Atwan would likely be too savvy to miss such an opportunity to either recruit those novas or to arrange to send to them to a nova world in exchange for favors... ::ninja

Re: Terran organizations recruiting novas-

Given the FSA's extremely bad reputation, Obsidian, I think that a group of novas (especially those who grew up in the Americas) would think long and hard before accepting sanctuary from them. ::crazy

If any Terran organization did try to recruit a group of novas, it would likely be either the Nihonjin (who have worked well with novas since 1998 and are still going strong) or the Upeo (who have connections with Eden, and can provide fast & friendly exfiltration out of the Solar Sytem if need be). ::sly ::biggrin

ProfPotts · December 20, 2003

Treating Milliken as an Aberrant-era nova who took the slow road to power, this translates into 7 Quantum and 3 Taint.

Not at all. It could translate into that, if that's the way you want to run things, but such a translation is by no means automatic or required. Are you trying to say that Novas from Aberrant can't buy cheap 'Tainted' Traits, or that they can't gain Taint in any other way? Are you absolutely sure that Milliken has Quantum 7? As I've pointed out a few times, what you're doing is making assumptions - you assume that WW actually meant for Milliken's stats to be another way, & you assume that he has no extra Taint over what a Quantum of 7 (which you assume he possesses) would automatically give him. That's all very interesting, but it's not what it says in the book, & it's not the only way to play things.

Also, you seem to be thinking of Milliken as a standard Trinity-era aberrant.

I think I've pointed out several times that I'm doing no such thing - all references to 'drooling freaks' & such have some from you.

... there's no indication in the published material that he was dormant during his little chat with Brian Ruiz.

Apart from the fact that Novas can easily be spotted as such even by baseline humans with no help from powers of any kind, & the trained Psion didn't notice Milliken as a Nova apart from the reactions of the crowd of locals? Not to mention the particular results of the Psion's close scan for Taint. 'No indication', right... ::rolleyes

I know that some people are that tall, but "tremendous physique" is a common aberration amongst the more powerful first-generation Edenite novas, and one that Milliken is likely in the process of developing. If Milliken had been dormant, he would've shrunk a bit, yes?

Not at all. Only Dormancy 4 or 5 actually changes the Nova's base appearance, & Dormancy, whilst internalising Quantum & Taint, only cancels the effects of a certain amount of Taint (& related aberrations). 'Tremendous physique' isn't an aberration I've ever seen in any of the books - Milliken hardly qualifies for 'Bulging Muscles', & the Psion would have noticed if the guy had 'Unearthly Beauty'. The 'tremendous physique' is just the natural result of erupting in the first place (& bumping all his base Attributes to 5) - Dormancy of less than 4 has no effect on that side of his appearance.

Since not all Aberrant games use Merits and Flaws, they weren't mentioned. The "Taint Resistant" Merit (APG, pg. 76) only costs 5 freebie points, so adding it to a willing target wouldn't be that difficult to accomplish. As there's also no material stating that Apollo Milliken is the most powerful Edenite nova, the possibility of Edenite novas capable of using Quantum Transformation is by no means outlandish.

That's a house rule of yours at the very best. Quantum Transformation adds Nova Points, not Bonus Points. There's a pretty huge difference. Merits & Flaws can only be purchased with Bonus Points (not Nova Points), & only during character creation (see APG p.68 to 69 - the same book as the Technique in question is in, by the way...). There's no good reason to assume that Quantum Transformation should have any effect on Bonus Points at all.

Re: genetic modification-
>Aberrant Player's Guide, page 128- Ecological Supremacy, Adaptation technique- there's no reason that it couldn't be used on humans!

Unless you count the text on p.127 stating "Ecological Supremacy works primarily on non-sentient targets..." as a 'reason'... ::rolleyes

That makes for some pretty clear demarcations between novas and aberrants, don't you think?

But none of it even implies that Novas (or 'less monstrous aberrants') don't suffer from Taint at all.

Actually, Eden's political setup IS an improvement!

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, by I for one value my democratic rights - & I'd imagine that many, many, of the 'normal' humans in the Trinity universe would as well. Don't get me started on US politics & society - let's just say I wouldn't consider the US the best example of an evolved socio-political democracy... ::wink

... suppose that you encountered one of the more civil novas in real life. How would you react?

I'd give up role-playing for life, & check myself in for psychological evaluation... ::sly

Given the cheerful irreverence evinced by some of White Wolf's staff, you'd almost think that they were doing that stuff you find objectionable on purpose...

Okay, I have to say: WTF? I never said that I found the game objectionable, or anything objectionable. I just pointed out another example of where people (in this case on the Demon forum) suddenly consider themselves 'experts' on subjects they know next to nothing about. The game I like - it's a great piece of fiction inspired loosly by religious mythology (but more by certain types of books, movies, & comics). When it first came out, there just happened to be a tendency for Demon forumites to suddenly consider themselves Biblical scholars, or to presume that the fiction in Demon was somehow rooted deeply in religious belief (which it's not, BTW). Please, please, please read what I actually write before assuming that I'm, some sort of anti-RPG bigot, okay? Sheesh.

Since most of the Edenites are first-generation novas, they use the default Taint rules from the Aberrant core book (on pages 148-151). That does not preclude the existence of second- and latter-generation novas, who use the "Very Low Taint" rules (Aberrant Player's Guide, page 68) and can have the "Taint Resistant" Merit (APG pg. 76) to boot.

How, exactly, does that mean that any of them are not subject to Taint, or wouldn't be considered as Tainted by Trinity-era Psions & humans? I'll point out again that anyone with zero Psi is considered an aberrant (see the text for the Psi Sink Merit in the TPG, p.139) - Novas have zero Psi. "Taint innately involves a lack of Psi energy", TPG p.144 under 'Attunement & Taint'. I've never suggested that Edenite Novas display as much Taint & as many aberrations as The Colony & pals, just that they are not, by any stretch of the imagination, 'non-Tainted'.

Novas who lived lives as ordinary citizens of Trinity-era Earth prior to their eruptions would fare better than that- they'd know the lay of the land and what kind of reception they'd be likely to receive from most other people they might encounter.

Yes - again no-one debates this. Most Trinity-era eruptees would (if they didn't top themselves from self-loathing) run to the nearest blight zone so that the background Taint hid them from instant detection by several thousand Psions (Attunement ranges increase rapidly once a Psion hits Psi 6). Of course, there are entire oganisations & military units dedicated to preventing just such an escape - but that's no reason such a 'Logan's Run' style game couldn't work & be fun. The point is that to have a combo-game with both Psion & Nova characters would require stretching the setting material a really long way - again, not that it couldn't work, but that if you're true to the setting, there are huge obstacles to overcome.

Sprocket · December 21, 2003

Here we go again... ::tongue

Re: Interpreting Apollo Milliken-

(Quote: ...It's not what it says in the book, & it's not the only way to play things.)

It is if you want an accurate estimation of Milliken's capabilities. Trinity's psi mechanics are simply not set up to handle the exponentially-greater levels of power that an actual nova or true aberrant can bring into play (pun intended). Case in point: As an experiment, my old gaming group played two "bug hunt" sessions of Trinity- the first pitted a group of psions against a few run-of the-mill aberrants (using the stats and mechanics from the Trinity core book) and the second against a trio of full-blown novas (using the character generation system from the Aberrant core book). The psions were experienced in combat and psi use, had as much formatted biotech as their Tolerance ratings would allow, and had access to heavy weapons and VARGs. It sounded like a cakewalk, at first.

The first session went fairly well for the psions- the aberrants were about the same power levels, emitted taint energies so that they could easily be detected with Attunement, and were suffering from various mental disorders to boot. The psions won without suffering any serious injuries.

The second session saw the trio of novas literally wipe the floor with our group of psions. They had Quantum traits of 4 or 5, with a robust assortment of quantum powers and Mega-Attributes. They didn't have any aberrations to speak of, so they weren't obvious targets and were wholly rational. What little Taint they had was minimal enough to render psionic detection via Attunement a waste of precious time. Despite all of their tech and psi-skill, the only reason that the psions survived at all is that the novas were focused on escaping unharmed and without a trace for the psions to follow up on. If the novas had been as intent on killing the psions as the psions were about the novas, the psions would've been dead. Period.

I've seen this problem come up on WW's Trinity forum several times, and I'm sure that you have, too. If a group is playing a group of psions, then the Trinity mechanics will do- they were designed with psions' power levels in mind. If a group is playing novas, then only the mechanics from Aberrant will do.

This is one of those times that I really wish that WW had gone ahead and released Aberrant: Nexus. Instead of clear crossover mechnics, we get interminable arguments over which games' mechanics take precedence. (Trinity player: "My game came out first! It says that all aberrants are doomed to become Tainted, so they all have to be killed ASAP!" Aberrant player: "Bollocks!" Matters tend to go downhill from there.) The funny thing is that the Storytellers and player groups out there have likely been doing their own crossover games for quite a while now, and couldn't care less what we have to say about it. ::laugh

Re: Dormancy & 'trememdous physique'-

Since when are available aberrations limited to only the ones listed in the books? The writers of Aberrant make a point of telling Storytellers and players alike that they should come up with their own aberrations, and use the existing ones as guidelines- check page 151 of the Aberrant core book. And if you think being over two meters tall doesn't have it's drawbacks, then you've never seen the prices of 'oversized' clothing and equipment some of the "big & tall" stores charge. ::crazy

Re: Quantum Transformation-

Actually, each success on the Quantum Transformation roll adds three nova points' worth of freebies, a.k.a. bonus points- check page 135 of the Aberrant Player's Guide. And what does one buy Merits with? Freebies/bonus points. It's not a house rule, just a tighter focus on the effects of that power technique. ::wink

Re: genetic modification-

Actually, that passage on page 127 says that it's up to the Storyteller as to whether Consciousness Supremacy is required to affect sapient targets or if targeting sapients results in a minor difficulty penalty (easily dealt with, if one has Mega-Intelligence). ::smile

Re: demarcations between novas and aberrants-

And as for whether the inhabitants of the nova worlds suffer from Taint? Most surviving first-generation novas are likely to be a bit elderly circa 2121, since not all of them had high levels of Mega-Stamina. That means the majority of combatant novas from the nova worlds will be second-generation. See the "Very Low Taint" rules on page 68 of the Aberrant Player's Guide. Latter generation novas can only gain Taint in the most extreme cases- and maxing a level 4 power several times in 1 hour is very extreme compared to the means of Taint accumulation used by first-generation novas. Add in the effects of the "Taint Resistant" Merit, and you can see why they DON'T have to worry much about Taint. It also makes for a pretty good reason as to why the Taint-ridden aberrants hate them so much.

Re: comparative socio-political systems and Eden-

The U.S. certainly has its problems, but so does the U.K. From what I've heard, not too many of your countrymen are happy with Tony Blair. Besides, you've got overt government censorship of media over there, in addition to the corporate censorship of media found worldwide. (And yes, I do know that the WTO recently slapped George W. over his proposed steel tariffs, and that his administration did some covert censorship to keep it out of the U.S. press. No big deal either way: I can still get the full story off the Disinformation site, and George W. deserves whatever slapping he gets. ::laugh )

Besides, given the sorry state of Aeoniverse-Earth in the 2050s- to which the democratically-elected governments of the First World were a significant cause- it's not hard to see why Eden sounded so appealing to its baseline colonists, many of whom were loyal friends of the sane novas to begin with. (These baselines were also accused of being race-traitors by the baseline majority, making living anywhere on Earth much less than appealing. See Stellar Frontiers page 102.) It's not like any of them were conscripted against their will, the way the U.K. colonized Australia. The Edenites also made sure to use baseline recruiters for their colonization effort (Stellar Frontiers page 102), so no one had any basis for saying that they were mind-controlled or influenced by Social Mega-Attributes. (That holds true in Trinity-era Eden as well- Brian Ruiz specifically states that in Stellar Frontiers, page 44.)

Re: Demon the Fallen and your profession-

::blink Wow. A little overly sensitive about that, are you? ::bigsmile Relax, Prof- I wasn't in any way making you out to be an anti-RPG bigot. Besides, WTH would a person like that be posting on EON in the first place? You're a gamer yourself, for crying out loud! You're one of us, and White Wolf's Gaming Police won't hunt you down for being a theologian.

As for the posters on White Wolf's WoD forums- I tend to ignore them (and the WoD forums), as they're not as friendly, polite, or civilized in their posting as the Aeoniverse fans. I've seen flaming on those forums that would get a poster kicked out of EON in two minutes flat, and I'm sure you have too. Are those forums really worth having to read through all that flaming? ::unsure

That being said, D:tF was likely deliberately set up (in part) to mock the beliefs of the religious fundamentalists who have given the entire RPG subculture (industry and consumers alike) tons of unearned grief (and legal expenses) over the past two decades. Given all the ruckus those people raised over Vampire, Werewolf, and ye olde D&D; I happen to think that they deserve some nose-tweaking at the very least. ::devilangel

Re: Edenites and Taint-

So it appears that we're having a basic disagreement over the effects of having a Taint rating, then? Fine. I'd like to point out that if the Edenites had been written in strict accordance with all of Trinity's rules on Taint, then Eden would not by any means be the healthy, vital, and thriving colony that it is. Instead, it'd certainly be a close copy of the Aberrant-dominated regions of Khantze Lu Ge (Stellar Frontiers, pages 82-84). ::cool

Re: Novas erupting on Trinity-era Earth-

On their supposed self-loathing: That's assuming that they haven't read or seen the published material about Eden (Stellar Frontiers, Genman/Walkabout Press sidebar on page 42), found a surviving cache of Nova-Age information (such as found on Trinity Field Report: Media page 15), or haven't been contacted by either Nihonjin agents or one of the Upeo wa Macho. Most people would rather live instead of commit suicide, provided that one's living conditions aren't intolerable.

On mixed Psion/Nova player groups: Yes, there'd be huge obstacles if a group of novas tried to convince psions from the Legions, Norça, Æsculapians, Orgotek, or Ministry that they mean no harm. They'd have an easier time of things with ISRA (who could certainly tell the difference between novas and aberrants) or the Upeo (who have a good working relationship with the Edenites). But my thinking on the situation was that a group of novas erupting on Earth would not be inclined to "protect a world that hates and fears them"- even without Mental Mega-Attributes, few novas in that situation would be naïve enough to ignore the consequences of doing so. (It's also extremely hard to feel any compassion at all for people who want you dead simply for being what you are regardless of what you have or haven't done.) They'd look out for themselves first and foremost, and if they can leave the Solar System (either via a warp or Upeo transport), they will seek to do so at first opportunity. ::ninja

On being true to the setting: ::blink WTF? Since when has treating setting material the way Christians do Scripture ever been a part of any Aeoniverse game? White Wolf has never proclaimed their setting material to be "Canon From Which Thou Shalt Not Deviate Lest Thou Become Heretics" the way TSR did with D&D back in the 80's and 90's (See Aberrant core book, page 102, "The Future"). Players who trust appearances and stereotypes in the game settings typically wind up dead, being used, or helping make a bad situation worse. It's most obvious in Darkness Revealed 1: Descent into Darkness (page 15 under "Theme"), but it's a recurring factor of all the Aeoniverse games. ::smile

ezekiel · December 21, 2003

Besides, you've got government censorship of media over there, in addition to the corporate censorship of media found worldwide.

American media aren't allowed to film returning caskets of soldiers fighting in Iraq

*ducks, rolls and runs away arms flapping!*

Sprocket · December 21, 2003

Re: Censorship of U.S. media- ::offtopic

::smile Yes, but that just leaves it wide open for the non-U.S. media to take those pictures. That policy of the Bush administration isn't too effective, given that anyone with a TV can tune into both the BBC's and Deutsche Welle's news programs on PBS. Add in access to the Disinformation site, and the situation would become downright ludicrous if the subject matter wasn't so grim. Oh well...

(P.S.- The U.K. government engages in overt censorship. Here in the U.S., they try for covert censorship, in this case using "respect for the grieving families of dead soldiers as a convenient excuse. It's a pretty transparent attempt at keeping the censorship covert, all things considered.)

Obsidian Shade · December 21, 2003

Whoa!

I must correct myself. A Nova with Q 6, QB [lethal] 2 (Aera, Mastery1, [Armor Piercing]) (15+14(?) (only if you allow lvl 4 powers and Q5+ at the beginning) Nova Points) got a range of 120 kilometers and would affect an area of 40 kilometers with 23 lvls and 16 dice damage.

::blink

And this nova would get a soak of 6 against Psi - effects, like Psions gets a soak against Quantum effects. Because they disrupt eachother.

ProfPotts · December 21, 2003

It is if you want an accurate estimation of Milliken's capabilities.

No it isn't - that's just your opinion of what an accurate estimation of his abilities would be. The issue isn't whether to use Aberrant or Trinity mechanics for Novas (since point of the discussion in the first place is how top use both systems together) - the issue is how you choose to apply those mechanics. The information we have on Milliken is that he has a Taint of 7. Aberrant has a Taint Trait, & it's in no way unreasonable for a guy like Milliken to have such a Trait at 7. So we're then faced with the choice of sticking as closely as possible to the information we've been given, or just throwing it all away & making stuff up for ourselves. Either is fine, depending on what a gaming group wants, but using your own house rules to try & tell us all that Milliken is a Taint-free saint just doesn't come across as convincing. There's no reason you couldn't run a game where the Edenites are all totally Taint-free, unable to gain any Taint, & smell like roses to Psion Attunement - it just wouldn't be a game that used the setting information as given, that's all.

As for the 'Trinity aberrant' Vs 'Aberrant aberrant' games you set your Psions against, I'd say that situation was purely in the hands of the ST in question. As an example, the aberrant 'Barb' in my Dreams of Dragons game on this site could be designed as either a Trinity-version or an Aberrant-version aberrant & still have the same essential stats & effects on the course of the game. Regeneration, natural weaponry, enhanced characteristics, & armour taken a few times make a combat aberrant as effective in it's role as a similarly designed Aberrant starting level Nova. It's only if you choose to min / max the two ways of designing such characters (presumably to prove a point) that you get a big difference - but I tend to see the power-levels of such characters as being linked to the plot & style of the game in question.

Since when are available aberrations limited to only the ones listed in the books?

They're not, but I was responding to the comment you made that such an aberration was 'common' - it's not, except maybe in your games with your house rules. As presented in the actual books, a 'tremedous physique' is a mere consequence of erupting in the first place - actual aberrations, even low-level ones, go much further than that (such as with Bulging Muscles & Unearthly Beauty). Being tall isn't an aberration - a side-effect of having gained perfect health maybe (as we all know children who are raised with a better quality of nutrition in their diets tend to be taller than others who have less well-balanced diets) - but not an aberration. If the guy was, say, ten feet tall, then yeah - aberration away, but he's not - he's just a basket-ball player.

Actually, each success on the Quantum Transformation roll adds three nova points' worth of freebies, a.k.a. bonus points...

I have to ask - are you just taking the Micky here? Quantum Transformation adds or subtracts three Nova Points worth of freebies per success. Nova Points are not Bonus Points. Bonus Points are not 'freebie points' - the word 'freebie' means 'something you get for free'. 'Freebie Points' are used in WoD games, not Aberrant - Aberrant has the more appropriately named Bonus Points. What the heck would a Nova Point's worth of Bonus Points be anyway? - There's no set exchange rate, & no way to have one that fits all categories. Maybe you run Quantum Transformation as a Technique that can add & subtract Bonus Points & not Nova Points (& therefore has no effect on actual Quantum Powers, Mega-Attributes, or Enhancements), but that's , again, a house rule at best & not what the book says the power actually does.

Actually, that passage on page 127 says that it's up to the Storyteller as to whether Consciousness Supremacy is required to affect sapient targets or if targeting sapients results in a minor difficulty penalty (easily dealt with, if one has Mega-Intelligence).

Ah - so now we hammer a square peg into a round hole just to make your pet theories fit. I see. So, instead of the extra 30 (at most) Novas who have erupted on Eden in the past 60 years being a natural result of Nova / Nova offspring & the well-documented increase in eruptions when in areas which are regularly subjected to Quantum powers, we have a rather twisted use of not one, but two, high-level Quantum powers in a manner which they really don't appear designed to be used in - & to manipulate Taint resistance in a species of all things - the one Trait which even Divis Mal isn't supposed to be able to manipulate (beyond Chrysalis & all the issues that go with that). Not only that, but you consider such a use of the power 'easily dealth with'! If all that was really true in the basic game setting, why the heck did stuff like the Aberrant War ever occur in the first place? Why didn't some Terat hit Quantum 8 & just alter the entire human race so that everyone erupted (& was immune to Taint as well) - after all, if something's both 'easily done' & beneficial to all, then why not do it? Heck - why doesn't that self-same Edenite go off & redesign all those hostile alien races you listed earlier - remove the 'evil gene' or something - not to mention curing all those Colony-style aberrants & the humans they've subjegated? You have to think about the wider implications of what you suggest - & if you do, I'm sure you'll see that they don't make much logical sense (unless the Edenite in question has some really twisted & convoluted personal plot going on).

... you can see why they DON'T have to worry much about Taint...

'Much' being an important word in that quote - so they do have to worry about Taint, just not as much as the other aberrants. Doesn't that mean Taint is still a problem for them, that they do still suffer from it, just not as much as the others - which is what I've been saying all along.

Re: comparative socio-political systems and Eden-

Yes, yes - we all know why the Edenite humans went in the first place - again that's not an issue that's being disputed. The issue is whether the Eden socio-political model is one that would (or should) be acceptable to humanity as a whole. Worshiping a guy & allowing him absolute rule over me, just because he can shoot fireballs out of his ass doesn't seem much like an evolutionary step in the political process to me - but then again, I tend to bother to vote when the general election swings round, so I may be in the minority here.

A little overly sensitive about that, are you?

Overly sensitive to you suggesting that I objected to a game I liked, & adding a comparison to a lunitic religious fringe? Yes, I guess I am.

I'd like to point out that if the Edenites had been written in strict accordance with all of Trinity's rules on Taint, then Eden would not by any means be the healthy, vital, and thriving colony that it is.

Yes & no. Your version ignores both the Trinity & the Aberrant takes on Taint - this thread is meant to be about using both games together, not using neither. If we use the Aberrant Taint rules then the Edenites are still Tainted. We can also see those specific aberrations which match the effects that the Colony & pals are meant to have in Trinity (such as Taint Bleed from the APG, p.96), & choose not to apply them to the Edenite Novas. Voila - we have beings that match the standard Aberrant rules for Taint & aberrations, but seem different to the Trinity-era characters who are used to fighting The Colony. Add in things like Dormancy (hinted at several times in Trinity, described in full in Aberrant, & as good as admitted to being possessed by Apollo Milliken) & there's no need to go mad with the house rules - it all fits pretty well as it is.

On their supposed self-loathing:

Again - I just pointed out that some people brought up to hate & fear something may well not want to live as that particular something. People have commited suicide over things as innocent as realising they're gay - it's hardly a stretch of the imagination to presume that some people who suddenly erupted in the Trinity-era would choose that route instead of going against everything they've ever believed in, & losing everything they've ever cared about up to that point. Not all, just some.

They'd look out for themselves first and foremost...

Some would no doubt do that too - some people are, after all, very self-centered (& a great advert for those who want humans to trust Novas as well might I add... ::sly ).

On being true to the setting: WTF? Since when has treating setting material the way Christians do Scripture ever been a part of any Aeoniverse game?

The Christians & Scripture comment aside (since now I know you're just trying to annoy me ::tongue ), I never suggested that people couldn't run games any way they wanted to - in fact, I stated that they could (& should) several times. The point I was making is that you stating your own house rules & variations on setting as it they were fact is just plain inaccurate. There's a big difference between me saying 'Apollo Milliken has a listed Taint of 7' (fact), & you saying 'Apollo Milliken has a Quantum of 7 / Taint of 3' (opinion). If you simply said something like 'The way I run things I give Apollo Milliken a Quantum of 7 & a Taint of 3' instead of presuming that you know better than the guys who actually wrote the book & invented the character, then there wouldn't be an issue. People are entitled to their opinions - I like people giving opinions & alternatives & personal ideas about all this setting stuff - I'd encourage that. But that's not the same as insisting that particular opinion is fact & the only way to do things.

Finbar · December 22, 2003

And now for my two bits...

1) Quantum Transformation: The rules point out that you do gain bonus points, but that are spent as per pg 135 in the Corebook. Merits, howver, are not buyable with them; Merits (along with Flaws) may only be bought at character generation (APG 68-9).

Side note: Using Ecological Supremacy to give a large number of people Taint Resistance would be a non-issue: It ain't gonna happen. Your best bet would be Adaptation, and Taint Resistance just isn't needed to suit baselines better to their environment; this same basic point would apply to novas.

2) Nova vs. Aberrant: I'm sorry, but outside of PR purposes, there just isn't an actual demarcation. Just because I like to be called a nova doesn't change that my powers are quantum-based; besides, "aberrant" as a nickname for novas has existed since practically day one (there is, after all, a certain faction called "Aberrants in the Abbie core book). Thus, the better use of Edenite and aberrant...

3) "No-Taint" Novas: The AA's book reference to "novas that aren't quite what psions know by the term" is clarified in just the next paragraph: It's a reference to mesmerists, stalwarts, and daredevils. There is a definite demarcation made here, as anyone who wants to play one is referred back to A!, and a new system of chargen for these "new types" (at least, relatively) is not presented, thereby keeping the line clear.

I'm not really sure if Dormancy should apply to Psi-attunement any more than just dropping the Quantum-rating. After all, as per the TPG, a nova still has no Psi, which is why they show up, not the amount of Taint.

4) White Wolf and Canon: White Wolf may not have an official canon, but it does enforce it. Read: Whereas D&D has always kept the distance between rules and settings (I can play D&D without having to worry about any particular setting's history), White Wolf has always had setting affect the rules (such as the Assamites losing their curse or the reason for only nine tradtions). Even in the Aeonverse, where Portman is considered to have been elected president, or the effects of the Huang-Marr Incident become part of future products.

5) Aberrant Abbies vs. Trinity Abbies: Unless you started with alot more than the standard 30 nova points, the match should have been fair. But, then again, I've seen a non-combat daredevil take down three combat abbies (including Andy "Ironskin" Vance and Chiraben). Of course, good dice rolls helped, but so did some pretty good tactics. That, and not being intimidated by the opposition...

However, straight rules-wise, it has been suggested that a Aberrant Nova's Quantum be treated as Taint, at least as regards Psi. The only other suggestion that I've seen is to not use the Trinity Abbie rules if you have the Aberrant rules ::bigsmile...

6) "Eden IS an improvement": Two notes on this one: a) If you consider the feudal system (specifically the "Noblesse Oblige" version) cool, then, yeah, it is. That puts the novas at just as big a handicap as the baselines, limiting both to their roles in their society. Meaning, of course, that any nova not actively working for the good of the planet is subject to some interesting problems...

No offense, Sprocket, but I think you have a very limited view if you think the US is on the way to the FSA. (Of course, I live in California ::blush ..., and my home city just voted to not support the Patriot Act...Should we be able to that in an era of inquisition?) But, then, the advantages of living in a democracy is that we can disagree.

7) New Eruptions: There are a lot of new eruptions. Some stay where they were, others run for the hills. Others try to be undercover heroes, others become monsters, others just do what they can to survive. Some try to commit suicide, most don't. Going by the examples in the books, there just aren't enough to really make any major conclusions.

Trying to keep it short...

FR

Sprocket · December 22, 2003

Sheesh. ::rolleyes So much for keeping things short. Here's my latest replies to ProfPotts. Once more into the breach...

Re: Interpretation of Milliken's stats-

After reading your latest round, I feel that there's a few points to be made here, Prof.

1- The information that says that Milliken has 7 Taint was published prior to the release of Aberrant, and attempts to use Trinity's psi mechanics to give us a rough idea of some of his capabilities. Barring a direct answer as to Milliken's stats from the developers of the Aeoniverse games, we have no indication either way as to which interpretation is correct. Unless you're hoping that the promised release of Aberrant D20 and Trinity D20 will include crossover mechanics that would clear up this matter, we literally have no choice but to go ahead and figure out things for ourselves.

2- I have to take some small offense at your "using house rules in attempt to pass off Milliken as a Taint-free saint" comment, Prof. First off, I used the rules found in the Aberrant core book and the Aberrant Player's Guide to re-interpret Milliken's stats in Aberrant terms. Second, I have NEVER attempted to pass Milliken off as a saint- unlike some folks, I do not accept the idea that the Quantum, Taint, or Psi Traits have any particular moral significance. I find that automatically assuming that he's got something extremely nasty to hide simply because the Trinity material gives him a Taint rating to be unsupportable. It sounds more like you dislike Milliken simply because of the society that he helped establish on Eden.

3- Those two groups of opponents from the gaming sessions were by no means as equivalent as you seem to think. The group of Trinity-style aberrants were written up using the stats from the Trinity core book (listed on page 303). The group of novas were written up using the character creation mechanics from the Aberrant core book, using a base of 40-50 nova points. Having an 'enhanced Strength attribute' of 8 is in no way equivalent to having Mega-Strength 3 (in which a nova can deadlift 25 metric tons).

4- I think that you'll find that Trinity's setting information contradicts itself in several places in regards to both novas and aberrants. (See Luna Rising, page 117 for an example.) Just what Aeoniverse game-line products (Trinity, Aberrant, and Adventure! alike) are you using as reference materials, Prof? I happen to be fortunate enough to have all of the Aeonverse books to date, aside from those included in the "Battleground" miniatures game for Trinity. You've made calls for references to support my claims- do you even have some of the books I've referenced?

Re: Quantum Transformation and "taking the Mickey"-

No, I most certainly am not "taking the Mickey" here. "Freebies" are essentially the same thing as Bonus Points. Towards the end of the character creation process, a supernatural (in the WoD) or Inspired (in the Aeoniverse) character receives 15 of them, which can be spent on things like extra dots of Attributes, Abilities, Backgrounds, Willpower, or other Traits in addition to Merits. Since the writers of the Aberrant Player's Guide are neither perfect nor able to work only on Aeoniverse gameline products at the time, it's inevitable that a few mistakes cropped up here and there. Sorry, Prof- all you're doing here is splitting hairs.

(Finbar, where exactly in the APG does it say you can't gain Merits via Quantum Transformation? I'm willing to concede that point if you could show me the text.)

Re: Ecological & Consciousness Supremacy-

My pet theories, eh? Hammering square pegs into round holes? Sorry to rain on your parade, but your argument has some major flaws:

1- Terats do NOT see Taint as something to be cured; while they respect that it can turn a nova into a drooling, uncontrollable freak (Aberrant: Teragen page 116), they also value it since it differentiates novas from the "unevolved masses of monkeys". Most Terats simply don't see the majority of baseline humanity as being worth the effort of saving them from any threat, including ones posed by other novas. By 2046, the Teragen are the main proponents of the wholesale extermination of baseline humanity at the hands of novas! (Aberrant: Teragen page 99.) Do these sound like people who are in any way inclined to "help" baseline humanity, except into a collective grave and extinction?

2- "Evil gene"? There is no such thing, Prof! I'm rather shocked that you of all people would latch onto such a simplistic idea. I certainly don't subscribe to that nonsense!

Besides, what makes you think that the Edenites would do any such modification of either the Colony's hordes or to the alien races that are hostile to baseline humanity, Prof? Remember, these folks abandoned Earth in the 2050s- their thinking was that Earth would either be destroyed by the Teragen & Co. or that it would become hostile territory if baseline humanity survived the Aberrant War. The soon-to-be-Edenite novas found Eden, relocated themselves and their baseline followers there, and focused their efforts almost exclusively on establishing a paradisical culture. Ensuring that their fellow Edenite novas did not become insane or develop dangerous aberrations would be the equivalent of "not fouling your own nest", and would help keep life on Eden more in line with a paradise instead of a purgatory. The Edenites were too busy taking care of their own house to mess with aliens or the Colony's hordes.

In Asia Acscendant, the Edenites are noted as recently having made an offer to the Chinese government (the NCE- the PRC fell in the early 2010s) to not only eradicate the Aberrant forces on Khantze Lu Ge, but to also clear the Aberrant-dominated territories of Tainted soil and to aid in curing the Taint-mutated humans, livestock, and crops. (Asia Ascendant, chapter 3, "Current Events") The Chinese initally refused the offer, but their difficulties in dealing with the entrenched Aberrants (now led solely by Kali) have several high-ranking Chinese officials reconsidering the Edenites' offer of help. The Edenites won't visit Terran-held territories without invitation- like the one they received from Susan N'gamba to visit Karoo Station (she was Karoo's mayor at the time) in September of 2116 during the Chromatic attack.

3- Sorry, but Taint is easier to deal with than you seem to think, Prof. The "Aberration Transfer" and "Chimeric Aberration" powers (Aberrant: Teragen, pages 125-126) are available to starting nova characters. It's not any great leap of logic to think that quantum powers can manipulate Taint itself. From what part of the Aeoniverse's collective setting material or rules did you get the idea that Taint could not be manipulated by novas?! Prove your claim!

Re: latter-generation novas and Taint:

They only have to worry about Taint if they deliberately engage in reckless use of the really-potent (level 4+) quantum powers- pretty much the equivalent of a baseline suffering from alcohol poisoning by engaging in a nonstop five-day bender. You don't see people being condemned for drinking alcohol responsibly (outside of Muslim- and Mormon-dominated regions), do you? ::cool

Re: Eden's sociopolictical system-

WTF? How the heck did you get the idea that Eden's baseline inhabitants worshipped their local novas? According to the material in Stellar Frontiers (page 103), "only some of them regard their novas as being near-divine. The other Edenite baselines see their novas as powerful rulers; a few are a bit resentful of the caste distinction and keep careful track of things to make sure the novas don't abuse their power."

And yes, I also tend to vote when elections are held on this side of the Atlantic. It simply doesn't amount to very much with the "winner takes all" formula for counting votes in a district and polling-box hijinks of the sort that resulted in George W. stealing the last U.S. presidential election. (For the record, I voted against George W.- didn't seem to do much good, did it?)

Re: Demon: the Fallen-

Ease up, friend. I did not suggest that you objected to that game- you were implying that you did as White Wolf's take on theology/demonology apparently clashed with your professional knowledge.

I also didn't compare you to a lunatic fringe- I simply pointed out an amusing aspect of the reasons behind D:tF's place in the conflict between the RPG folks and the funadmentalists. (Also, the term "lunatic fringe" implies a minority group- considering that I happen to live in the U.S.' "Bible Belt", funadmentalists are a majority around here and RPG-players are a minority! Consider yourself lucky to live in the U.K.)

Re: Novas and suicide-

Your reasoning would hold up well if we were talking about Trinity-style aberrants, but we're talking novas here. Given that "they would have a much greater chance of escaping the fate of monstrous transformation" (Terra Verde, page 89), all they'd have to deal with would be the knee-jerk prejudice of most of the baselines & psions around them.

Re: self-centeredness of novas on Trinity-era Earth-

Come off it, Prof! You expect people who are being discriminated against, hunted down, and shot at on sight- regardless of their innocence- to risk their lives to save the people who are doing their best to kill them ASAP? Not that the alternative- being the subject of Josef Mengele-style experiments- is any better.

Make no mistake, that level of persecution is what a group of novas who erupt on Trinity-era Earth will have to face on a daily (if not hourly) basis. Why should a group of novas in that situation make any attempt at all to help their fellow Terrans if said "fellow Terrans" always attempt to put a laser beam through their brains or cart them off to a hidden lab for horrific experiments as a consequence?

Nova #1: "Ohmigod, aberrants are raiding my old hometown? I had lots of good friends there! We've got to help save those innocent people!"

Nova #2: "What are you, stupid?! Those 'innocent people' and your so-called friends were cheering as soldiers gunned down your parents and kid sister! Are you so naïve to think that they'd treat you any differently from the Colony's rent-a-jerks? And if the Colony's aberrants didn't kill you on sight for being a throwback and a race-traitor, then you'd be killed right afterwards by the blasted psions. Of course, there's always the chance that you might wind up as the main attraction on a vivisection table in some lab..."

Nova #1: "Oh... yeah, you're right. Crap."

To heck with PR- their survival (and possibly that of their families, if they haven't already been summarily executed as carriers of "aberrant DNA") is at stake! Altruism is all very nice, but if it's unappreciated, it's worthless. So much for any hope of an alliance between Earth and the nova worlds, eh? The Colony must be laughing its' head off (assuming that it actually has a head... ::crazy )

If that proves true in the setting, then even with the psions, Earth is done for. One has to wonder if Max Mercer isn't feeling rather disgusted with baseline/neutral humanity as a whole in the Trinity era.

Re: The Scripture comment-

::tongue Just a little, yeah. But that really was how TSR (who let their displeasure be known via Dragon Magazine) acted in the 80s and 90s- just another of mistakes that drove them into bankruptcy and irrelevancy.

Re: The Milliken question, again-

::blink And you actually think that the mechanics and stats provided in Trinity are of equal value to those in Aberrant in regards to accurately describing novas and/or aberrants? I don't, but you know that already. Also, I think that there's an old thread on White Wolf's Trinity forum that tacked this very issue, with exactly the same lack of resolution.

Looking back over the last few pages of this forum, it's plain to me that not only do we disagree sharply on this, but that there is no chance at all of concluding or winning this debate. I haven't convinced you, and you haven't even come close to convincing me. Shall we call it a draw? ::smile

And as for Finbar's points...

Re: Edenite vs. Aberrant-

Of course, that doesn't account for the quantum-powered inahbitants of the other nova worlds, as mentioned in "The Story So Far"... Pity that a Trinity supplement didn't cover them.

Re: Aberrant novas vs. Trinity aberrants-

Check out my entry above for the details, Finbar. The aberrants were written straight up from the stats in the Trinity core book, while the novas were in the 40-50 point range (due to Darwinian selection). One of the major differences is that the novas fought smart, unlike the Taint-maddened aberrants.

Re: Eden being an improvement-

Actually, I have an insider's view of the U.S.- I'm from Texas, much to my chagrin. Considering that I've had friends lose their homes (and much of their monetary resources) via abuse of the eminent domain laws and been sickened by living near unregulated chemical plants, things are looking pretty medieval from here, at least. So we can disagree... for now, at least. ::lookaround

Re: New Eruptions-

From what I can tell, the only real difference in the way they're treated by the psions, authorities, and populace is how much cheering and celebration is made when news of their execution is announced. But that's just me... ::sly

Ayre el KaBeer · December 22, 2003

Nova #2: "What are you, stupid?! Those 'innocent people' and your so-called friends were cheering as soldiers gunned down your parents and kid sister! Are you so naïve to think that they'd treat you any differently from the Colony's rent-a-jerks? And if the Colony's aberrants didn't kill you on sight for being a throwback and a race-traitor, then you'd be killed right afterwards by the blasted psions. Of course, there's always the chance that you might wind up as the main attraction on a vivisection table in some lab..."

Wasn't I accused of being rabid for making a comment along these lines?

phoenix · December 22, 2003

ProfPotts and Sprocket: Please do the rest of us a favor, and either take Sprocket's suggestion and agree to disagree, or try to keep it just a tad more civil from now on. You're both splitting quite a few hairs in your arguments - the "taint-free saint" reference was rhetorical, not literal, I'm pretty sure he wasn't implying that Milliken was morally spotless, and I'm equally sure he doesn't actually think there's such a thing as an "evil gene" (right? ::unsure ::tongue) - his point was that genetic manipulators could, were they so inclined, nullify the Chromatic threat, as I think you'll agree. Just a couple of examples (the fact that they're both Sprocket's isn't me taking sides, it's me being too lazy to find more).

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this conversation doesn't need quite so much tongue-in-cheek dripping from each post. I know this is EON and we all respect each other, so let's show that in our posts so it stays that way.

Thank you... ::rolleyes

Out of curiosity, Sprocket, why in the world do you live in Texas if you hate it there so much?

Also, I feel like using this smiley now, because I like it. ::xmas2

That is all.

Heritage · December 22, 2003

Wow, what a thread! It looks like the Blight in here.

Just one other little note that I've always found interesting:

The FSA's hypocritical stance on novas. One the one hand, the FSA probably has one of the most manipulative propoganda machines going, and it is firmly anti-Aberrant. On the other, the FAS secretly used 'loyal Aberrants' during the North American Police Acton against Canada to destablilize it prior to and during the invasion. And if I'm not mistaken, isn't it written somewhere in America Offline that the FSA military has been trying unsuccessfuly to create Aberrants of its own as part of a super-soldier program? Shades of Huang-Marr!

In other words, fear of the Aberrants is being used as both a control mechanism and as an excuse to justify sweeping changes in the political enviroment, while the FSA also secretly works with or tries to create Aberrants. Yep, sounds like the America I know, unfortunatly ::blush

Trinity RPG - Does Aberrant work in Trinity?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment