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ProfPotts

Matrix Revolutions

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Ok, I've just seen 'The Matrix: Revolutions" film; generally ok, & better than the second one, but no-where near as good as the first, IMHO. Now, can anyone explain why the machines agreed to peace at the end of the film - & stuck to that agreement? ::confused

I know why Neo wanted peace - fair enough - but why did the machines stop attacking the humans? Is there meant to be an implication that the machines couldn't lie, or were more honourable than humans, or something? I mean, the humans in 'the fields' are meant to be their only source of power, right? So 'peace' would either mean suicide for the machines (as the humans in the power plants were liberated), or the 'free' humans abandoning all the other humans & no longer caring that the machines were using them for power - which kinda' makes a mockery of the whole concept of freeing those people & taking back the world that was introduced in the first film.

Maybe I'm missing something important (Neo was somehow controling the machine intelligence maybe? I dunno'), but the ending just didn't make any sense to me.

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Look... The film was the biggest pile of poo ever. Swiss cheese is envious of that plot.

There was only one Matrix movie. QED

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Uses his Jedi Mind Tricks..

"There was only one Matrix Movie.."

*grins*

I wish you'd put spoiler in there Prof, now I know the ending! I'm not lucky enough to get to go see it for a few more days.

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SPOILER

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Okay Malkboy, if you haven't seen the third matrix film yet, STOP READING HERE.

SPOILERS

Okay, first off, I highly recomend you rent the Animatrix DVD, its short stories have numerous backstory references and information, that may help some of your confusion about the machines. Secondly I too have some issues with the ending, but the following may enlighten a few folks. (maybe not)

In the first two stories on the disc, the machines apparently believed that they are sentient and are entitled to the same rights and consideration as humans. This did not go over well, considering that the first machine act to declare this belief was an act of murder (supposed self-defense).

But the two part story goes on to show how rabid humanity becomes towards ALL humanoid machines. They show more than a few minutes of humans destroying, mutilating and slaughtering millions of their robots. The machines flee to the uninhabitable desert to give the humans "room", the humans eventually declare war on the machines. Enevitably the machines sue for peace then, and the humans ignore them, and destroy the machine diplomats. Long story short, this story alone shows how the machines repeatedly tried for a peaceful resolution, and when the humans pushed them into a corner, they finally retaliated viciously. (the analogy that comes to mind, is like someone kicking a dog all day to prove that its dangerous) ::devil

This story could be used as evidence that the machines were always trying to co-exsist with the humans, not wipe them out. And remember according to the architect, they were not tryin gto wipe out all of Zion, they were perfoming a population control (somthing about 16 females and 9 males?).

The part that supports and yet causes a great deal of doubt about the machine's intentions, was the whole harvesting of humans to experiement on us. They show this nightmare scene where the machines have begon a systematic torture/experiemtn on human biology to determine how our minds work. This is so they can "humanely" use us as a powersupply, instead of lobotomizing us.

So what about the humans still in the matrix? Well acording to the Architect (at the end when the Oracle is talking to him) those that chose to leave will be permitted. I figure that whole lot will want to leave, but if the folks at Zion are smart, they will keep it to a trickle at first anyway, since there is only so much food and living space available in Zion, and the surface is not very promising. (unless you believe the "bread" story about Morphius and the mutant wheat.) Either way the machines will be dominating human life even with the peace, now that the machines have a dependant trade source. I mean where are the humans going to get the surplus labor and materials they need? They can't steal them without starting the war again. And they can only mine so much. I figure that the machines are in an even better possition, with the peace. Heck mayber one of the humans will eplain about Real batteries and how we once used something called "nuclear power" to get electricity, or someone might introduce them to the wonders of solar power in the vacuum of space...maybe.

The biggest problem I have is actually with the idea that the machines stayed on earth. ::wacko I mean, they don't need air, and if they had access to Zion on five previous occasions, why could they not create their own geothermic power supply, or even a nuclear power plant to supply them with their energy needs. Then the machines could have escaped earth. (Cause static charge should not stop them. They can insulate against it, I mean if the charge did not damage organic flesh (Neo and Trinity), then it was not so strong that it could not be insulated from.

I mean even if the machines could not harden their systems from EMP, they could harden a ship to protect its cargo of snetient machines to pierce the darkness. Heck a conducting kite would have gotten them lots of power from the eternal storm above ::blink . Like I said issues.

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Oh and the whole thing about Neo. Here' s a good question:

SPOILER AGAIN....

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Is Neo alive or dead? ::laugh I mean the Oracle makes the comment that she believed they will see him again, but he looked pretty dead to me Then I thought about the Oracles words, "Where there's a begining there's an end" and I thought, well if Neo was incorporated with Agent smith, maybe his body is dead and his awareness is now permanently a program? Or its possible that the Oracle was talking metaphorically, and that since the Matrix needed a "One" every so often to balance itself out, that another "One" will come along. Don't know. But I figure we can always debate this till the cows come home. ::rolleyes

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Ok. Here we go.

1) The machines need humans for power.

Er... They're already using a form of fusion - right? Geothermal? Tidal? Wind power? Chemical? The humans are getting food from somewhere - so the machines should be able to do grow something similar and use that? Hell - why not use cows in a big fat cow matrix? So that's the basic premise blown out of the water. Also - look how much energy the machines are flat out wasting in hunting for humans - it's RIDICULOUS.

2) If the machines are not 'greedy for space' like humans - why don't they all just live in a pc somewhere? or make some nanites and live on a volcanic crack or something.

3) The One. Right - he has these pseudo-mystical powers in the matrix to balance the big cosmolosmoillogico equationo thingywhatsit. Fine. Why does he have kickass blow uppy powers outside the matrix? See Chewbacca defence.

4) If The One is supposed to be in the matrix - why are agents chasing him? More to the point - If the Keymaker is supposed to be in the matrix - why are agents chasing him? Were they TRYING to miss? How could they count on the 'only humans' to succeed in rescuing him? If he was killed and there was no key then Neo would never see the Architect and never be presented with 'the choice' and they would squish Zion and mess up their equation again. doh.

5) The merovingian - if agents are chasing the keymaker, why aren't they after him? or his cronies? If they are - why don't they go after him in overwhelming numbers?

That'll do for starters

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::blink I could at least understand Agent Smith's problem with the inmates of the matrix if they were cows. I get the giggles just trying to imagine that scene with morphius and Agent Smith, but with Morphius as a Holstein Bull. ::laugh

"I sometime fear I will never be free of the smell"

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Yeah - I've got the Animatrix - I guess I better watch it again now... Thanks for pointing that stuff out though.

The 'need humans as power' thing always was a bit stupid, even in the first film. Maybe the machines were just driven to use them as such by petty revenge motives? The agents & other programs do appear to get more & more 'human' as the films progress - until we have the little girl in #3.

Here's another question - did the Architect also invent Southern Fried Chicken? ::laugh

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Here's another question - did the Architect also invent Southern Fried Chicken? ::laugh

Kentucky Fried Chicken, perhaps. He did it right after he invented psychoanalysis. ::biggrin

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There's been so much spoiler space in this thread that I don't feel the need to add more, but I point out that this is largely my opinion.

The machines are advanced and intelligent enough that no, they don't need humans to survive. It's simply convenient to contain them and the extra energy humans produce is handy.

However, the machines have been Asimoved. While there's probably a large contingent who want to destroy humans, they simply can't. It's counter to their core programming. So they keep them alive, albeit as slaves in the Matrix.

The Architect's choice, presented to Neo, was simply this: Neo, as a human, has free will and can make the choice that the machines can't. The machines set up the choice, and Neo chooses, and in so choosing, dooms humanity to destruction.

Neo, by the way, is implied to be coming back because of the above-mentioned scene with the Architect. He, as the One, is supposed to return to the Source, so he can be incorporated into the next version of the Matrix. He initially refused, but in the final Super Burly Brawl with Smith, he's hooked into the Matrix via the Source. The Source uses him to perform a virus sweep of the Matrix, and his essence returns to the Source to be incorporated into the new Matrix. Note that, throughout the first two movies, the "real world" has a blue tint, while the Matrix has a green tint. The Matrix at the end of Revolutions no longer has a green tint - it's the first time blue has really been shown within the Matrix, and definitely the first time the sky has been shown as blue.

In any case, the One is a cyclical phenomenon. Neo will be back in some form or another.

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There are some bits of your argument I could buy Ian, if it seemed more like the Wachowski brothers had meant for people to think that.

If the machines had been given some sort of laws of robotics - it would make a lot more sense. However, given that they happily torture and kill people, it seems unlikely that they care about individual human life

If on the other hand their first law was 'thou shalt not waste scarce resources' then their actions in keeping humans as cattle which they might later find a better use for, would make more sense. Maybe even if they believed that some problems can only be solved by organic brains it would be a step up. If the architect had revealed something like that it would have been great.

Now, if the problem was, as you say, 'CHOICE' and it wasn't the human's ability to choose to disbelieve the matrix, but rather the machine's inability to choose at all, it would have been closer to brilliant.

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I saw it last weel (I forgot about this thread). I didnt think it was that bad. I actually thought it was pretty good for a sequel. Heck that last part where neo and smith go at it (though some poor anime freak guy might think it was a DBZ rip off) made me think of 2 people with high armor, Mstr and flight going at it. The story was constant (ill even admit they had some sort of story in that horrid second one...) with the series and I think it wrapped everything up in a predictable way.

Personally I would like to see the humans wiped out becasue they deserved it (see the Animatrix), but Neo came through.

And Trinity died! yay!

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The 2 part episode in the animatrix was crap! They were a really advanced production line? Really Advanced slaves? come on who gives a production line and slaves AI? (fuzzy logic maybe) and to even suggest the machines are immune to nukes!

Nuke = mucho burnies in other words vaporised/melted/shattered machines.

Nuke = EMP! on a much larger scale then the ship generated ones and we saw how effective EMP's are.

The best episodes in the Animatrix were the first one as it ties dirrectly into the movies. The one with the fuedal japan setting, it was just well done imo. And finally the one where the kids are playing in the haunted (see glitch) house, it was clever and reminded me of the old childhood stories.

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I was meaning as in back ground info. I know that the Nuke would release a very large EMP, and I know that nukes hurt many many things.

But about slaves an AI...it would depend on their core programming. As long as they have the capassity to learn (i.e. new skills and such) then they can develop a personality if they exist long enough. Especially if they were in a line where they had to deal with many people all day (learning social skills). With as advanced as they were *supposed* to be, then its possible IMO.

And sence when did you appreciate fight scenes Mr. I-dont-wanna-see-a-Smith/neo-fight-that-looks-reminesant-of-anything-that-might-be-in-DBZ-which-so-happens-to-look-like-any-high-powered-superhero-fight?

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If the point of watching the matrix Revolutions was to see if they could make a manga movie with real actors, then they succeeded. Personally I'd like to sue the Wachowskis for lost hours of my life.

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In reference to the ANimatrix, I found two of the stories helpful in getting som eof the back references: The Osirus story, which covers how they discovered the machine army, and the (can't recall its name), story about the kid who falls from the building. (He must be tha kid who thinks Neo saved him)

All in all I did enjoy the animatrix, though I have had to wonder about the odd athlete story... I just did not see how that really tied into the over-arching story. It didn't add to the experience for me. (as opposed to the Private Eye story, which at least added something to the Trinity backstory from the first movie - again not much).

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You know...not ever super-powered clash of the titans is derived from manga and anime. ::rolleyes

Gawd...this is going to be another Final fantasy movie thing...where Im the only one who likes it because Im seeing the (insert foreign culture here) side of things...

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Nobody's pickin' on you, bud...it's just that some people liked it, some people didn't. For instance, I didn't hate the movie, but I can't say I liked it all that much either. Wish, on the other hand, loved it.

It really just comes down to a matter of opinion and preference. Especially with movies.

As for the FF movie...I loved the animation, but the voice acting left something to be desired.

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You know...not ever super-powered clash of the titans is derived from manga and anime.

Uh huh... this one was. ::tongue

where Im the only one who likes it because Im seeing the (insert foreign culture here) side of things...

I hate foreign culture, that's why I bought those Akira Kurosawa movies, + Ghost in the Shell, various manga, read Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu etc. Damn those wierd foreign people.

Naaa... Revolutions was wrong on many levels - not the manga aspect so much, but at the fundamental level that for a movie with what has to be the biggest SFX budget ever it managed to be boring. In the whole of revolutions nothing happens. You can sum it up in one sentence. Smith gets the Oracle's power. Neo learns that AIs can love too, makes a deal with the Source for peace, fights Smith, loses and gets overwritten, but wipes him from within. Oh, Trinity dies and the humans and machines have peace for now. Right, sorry, three sentences.

Lets try that with the first movie. Neo is a discontented hacker who finds out about someone called Morpheus and something called The Matrix which strikes a chord within him. After having some strange experiences with his computer and meeting an alluring female hacker called Trinity he is dragged before some spooky agents where he has a distinctly surreal experience. He is taken from his bed, put in a fast car, has a wierd biometallic bug thing removed from his belly, introduced to a strange prophet (called morpheus) and given the option of finding out what the matrix is...

You see where I'm going here... even the second movie (which I thought was Ok) had some new stuff in it.

Nobody's pickin' on you, bud...

Aww, Archer, just when I was about to make him hand over his lunch money! ::wink

As for the FF movie...I loved the animation, but the voice acting left something to be desired.

Yup - the Animation was just like the first story on the animatrix - good enough that you can be forgiven for thinking its real if you take anything less than a good look. The acting and the plot were both pants though.

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You can sum it up in one sentence. Smith gets the Oracle's power. Neo learns that AIs can love too, makes a deal with the Source for peace, fights Smith, loses and gets overwritten, but wipes him from within. Oh, Trinity dies and the humans and machines have peace for now. Right, sorry, three sentences.

thats two sentences and one long long run on sentance...

Lets try that with the first movie. Neo is a discontented hacker who finds out about someone called Morpheus and something called The Matrix which strikes a chord within him. After having some strange experiences with his computer and meeting an alluring female hacker called Trinity he is dragged before some spooky agents where he has a distinctly surreal experience. He is taken from his bed, put in a fast car, has a wierd biometallic bug thing removed from his belly, introduced to a strange prophet (called morpheus) and given the option of finding out what the matrix is...

you can also do that for Revolutions....

Neo's body is not jacked into the matrix, while his conciousness is in the matrix. He meets some software. He finds out that they arent so different after all. He finds out they have their own view of things that we derive emotion from...

We can do it that way for the first movie if you want as well....

Neo is a discontented hacker. He meets Morphius. He gets a choise to leave an imaginary place, and does so then gains ultimate DBZ action power!

I used less words ::wink

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And sence when did you appreciate fight scenes Mr. I-dont-wanna-see-a-Smith/neo-fight-that-looks-reminesant-of-anything-that-might-be-in-DBZ-which-so-happens-to-look-like-any-high-powered-superhero-fight?

Woah! Hold on there bud... I consider myself a conesuer of fight scenes, it's just that both Reloaded and Revolutions' fights are the only fight scenes ever that made me want to fall asleep, and that's fact not me embellishing to get my point across (like I usually do ::wink ). Come the end I was damn near begging for someone to do something spectacular (ie. an energy blast, waves of raw code, etc.) to get around the monotony of it.

As for Neo manipulating things from afar that's one of the few easy ones, being 'The One' he (or even The Architect) decided to upgrade his implants to those with cordless capability... He bought a remote! ::tongue

Oh something I wanted to bring up when the Reloaded thread was up, Neo the good old saviour of humanity is a bastard! He flew through a city at mack infinity x 2, killing thousands (die in the matrix, you die out of it) just to save his prescious lady friend.

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I admit that the Matrix fight scenes were fairly shabby. (My favorite supers fight scene so far was Nightcrawler's attack on the President in X2).

Still, I love this movie, but then I don't judge movies based on anything other than the coolness of their dialogue, characters, and fight scenes. The dialogue in the Matrix is awesome.

I've given up on plots. The last good plot I've seen in a movie was Akira (though admittedly, I don't watch a lot of movies).

Besides which, a friend of mine looks strikingly similar to Trinity, to a degree that makes it quite an experience to watch the movies with her.. ::wub

Is Ghost In The Shell all it's cracked up to be?

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Besides which, a friend of mine looks strikingly similar to Trinity, to a degree that makes it quite an experience to watch the movies with her.. ::wub

Our little clone is growing up ::biggrin

Is Ghost In The Shell all it's cracked up to be?

Plotwise? no it's not, far more coherant than Akira though, it's enjoyable mind. Ninja Scroll is a good classic manga, perversions aside that is, if you haven't already seen it.

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Keep in mind that the Ghost in the Shell anime is a massive reduction from the manga. Also keep in mind that very shortly you'll have quite a few Ghost in the Shell movies/episodes to choose from. Stand Alone Complex has already started to filter into the states fansubbed (its a sort of elseworlds take on GITS assuming the story in the movie/manga didn't happen but using the same settings and characters) and the new movie that's comming out(not sure the progress on that one though). I'd recommend Ghost, over Ninja Scroll really, because for the life of me I can't quite call a movie with that many rape references and uninspired gore good. With as much shameless sex as they put in I got uber pissed when they finally had a half assed excuse and didn't do the nasty. I'll say the animation is good, but again, Ghost strikes me as better, and more thoughtfully put together.

Jake

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Plotwise? no it's not, far more coherant than Akira though, it's enjoyable mind.

Hey, Akira is good. I love Akira. It's a great movie to watch when you're just tired enough for it to all make sense. Or drunk would probably work, too - I wouldn't know ::halo ::withbeer

Our little clone is growing up 

Since this is currently an anime thread, my response is to expand my head to enormous proportions and viciously eat Ayre el KaBeer in one gulp, then to return to normal and look innocent.

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