Aberrant RPG - Sonic booms

[ProfPotts]

I've been thinking about the Aberrant representations of sonic booms - specifically via the Thunderclap Enhancement & Hypermovement.

Now, a vehicle creates a sonic boom when it overtakes the pressure wave that builds-up on it's surface as it moves through the atmosphere, right? The faster the vehicle moves, the further behind it the pressure wave travels, & the larger the wave becomes. The pilot of the vehicle hears the sonic boom once, when the vehicle breaks the sound barrier (overtakes the pressure wave), & people outside the vehicle hear the boom once when the wave passes over them. Sometimes a pressure wave from an aircraft will be heard twice - once as it goes past, & once as it bounces off the ground or buildings & goes past again the other way. The thinner the atmosphere, the faster a vehicle needs to go to break the sound barrier (the speed of sound is usually listed at it's sea-level rate).

Ok, in Aberrant a sonic boom is simulated via Thunderclap, but what's really being simulated is that pressure wave. So, in theory, even a 'slow' Hypermovement Nova would generate such a wave, it'd just arrive at the same time the Nova did. So, in theory, shouldn't a Nova with Hypermovement 1 to 3 also create a Thunderclap effect?

The pressure wave created via Hypermovement also shouldn't really be a spherical area effect, but rather a circular 'wall' that follows the Nova at a distance. In effect this makes little difference to the game statistics used, but is helpful in visualising the way the effect works. The damage the thing does would be a long 'corridor' that follows the Nova's path in either case.

Considering what it is, shouldn't a Thunderclap effect cause a Strobe: Hearing type of effect as well? A turn of Strobe per success on the Thunderclap wouldn't seem unreasonable to me.

A Thunderclap pressure wave should bounce off solid objects - which may create interesting (or dangerous) side effects to the move.

In theory, a Hyperspeed Nova can be hit by the pressure wave he creates (he stops dead & the wave continues past him until it disappates). Does his power immunity prevent any damage, or does this come under the 'running into a brick wall' category?

Just some thoughts for you more science-orientated guys to correct. ::wink

[Sprocket]

I'm not sure how "scientific" it is, Prof, but there are stats for the effects of an orbital kinetic railgun in Aberrant: Worldwide- Phase 2. Perhaps you could work out something from that?

[Ayre el KaBeer]

So, in theory, shouldn't a Nova with Hypermovement 1 to 3 also create a Thunderclap effect?

Well 1 & 2 anyway (at 3 the nova has already broken sound by 203km/h). I don't think it should be a complete Thunderclap effect, I'd say no actual damage is caused (whiplash as worst case cenario) but there should still be a knockdown effect to anyone really close to the nova. If this should knockdown the nova aswell I don't know, I guess it would depend on his/her/its might score. An argument to say it doesn't harm the nova is that the world land speed record car(s?) that have gone super-sonic weren't harmed when they droped back to sub-sonic.

Speedsters going full tilt indoors (if the doors and windows are closed) should expect a wall or two to come down behind them.

[Arcanum_V]

Speedsters going full tilt indoors (if the doors and windows are closed) should expect a wall or two to come down behind them.

. . . unless they happen to live in Smallville or Metropolis, where it's entirely possible that moving so fast that they can't be clearly seen does not produce any kind of sonic boom, or even more than a slight flutter of any nearby leaves.

I suppose it could be argued that the presence of Quantum accounts for the very localized effect of the speed to the speedster, and not to his environment, in much the same way that Quantum explains how the superstrongman can lift a car without just tearing off whatever part he's holding.

[malkboy]

Yup.. remember.. immune to your own effects and really it depends on how you show your powers as to if it effects everyone else. Everyone shows them in a different way Albe things like hypermovement are kind of hard to see any way but maybe two or three manners.

Then again I've been proven wrong before...

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I suppose it could be argued that the presence of Quantum accounts for the very localized effect of the speed to the speedster, and not to his environment, in much the same way that Quantum explains how the superstrongman can lift a car without just tearing off whatever part he's holding.

That makes sense, however if that was the case it would make all the hyper manuvers impossible.

[Archer21]

That makes sense, however if that was the case it would make all the hyper manuvers impossible.

Not necessarily. Super-strong characters, by all rights, should tear their opponent's head off when punching them in the face; instead the enemy just ends up getting knocked back or up.

I'm assuming you're referring to maneuvers like Hyperspeed Slam/Strike. If that's the case, then any object moving that bloody fast is still going to hit hard.

[ProfPotts]

It does make a certain amount of sense to me to have 'sonic boom' listed as a combat maneuver that requires Hyperspeed or equivalent velocity, rather than a part of the power; I guess the point of having it as the automatic result of Hyperspeed movement at maximum velocity is to show that the use of Nova powers can have negative effects on the world around the Nova.

The logic to allowing a Thunderclap effect at lower than normal Hyperspeed is that a Hyperspeed sonic boom causes a Thunderclap of an equivalent Mega-Strength as the number of dots in Hyperspeed, but even 1 to 3 Mega-Strength can create a Thunderclap. If it's the same basic effect, then why can't the lower velocity pressure wave from a guy running at Hyperspeed 1 still have the same effect as a relatively low power Mega-Strength 1 Thunderclap?

The Thuderclap effect isn't all that impressive in any case - it has a radius of Mega-Strength x10 meters, but only effects living things & fragile / brittle things, & only does one die (or maybe one Mega-die, it's not too clear on that point) per dot of Mega-Strength. So, if a guy running at Hypermovement 1 was allowed a similar effect, because of the pressure wave that builds up as he runs, then all it would mean was that people within 10 meters of his movement path would get a little knock, papers & things would be blown about, & windows would rattle & occassionally break. That doesn't seem too unbalancing to me, but does seem a nice 'visual effect'.

Of course, such an effect could be useful - not so much for knocking people out (which nothing short of a Mega-Strength 5 or so Thunderclap is likely to achieve), but for stuff like clearing gas from an area (i.e. the stuff that a regular Thuderclap is best suited to do).

I think that when the big 'S' moves at superspeed in Smallville or Metropolis chances are he's not using the Hyperspeed power - more like Teleport or one of the Temporal Manipulation Techniques, if not just bucket loads of Quickness. After all, Hypermovement doesn't give you any extra actions, so young Clerk's 'bullet time' exploits must be more than that.

The reason, I think, that super-sonic vehicles aren't usually hit badly by their own pressure waves is that they accelerate & decelerate at a reasonable pace. A speeding Nova who stops dead isn't doing that, & isn't giving the pressure wave a chance to dissipate. Of course, vehicles do take some damage from moving at high velocities - they're just usually built to withstand that sort of damage. Another thing to consider is that planes & such can be caught in the 'wash' from another aircraft's passing, even when that plane isn't going super-sonic - again it's the pressure wave effect, without any sonic boom needed.

I'd resist using kinetic railgun rules for a Hypermovement character - they're bad enough as it is at high velocities without giving them the power of an orbital cannon!

Power immunity-wise, I'd think that the Hypermovement Nova's power immunity prevents any damage from friction through the air, allows him to breathe, etc., but wouldn't protect the guy from a 'secondary effect' like a sonic boom that catches up with him. To compare with a Mega-Strong character, it's like throwing a car in the air, then letting it land on your head - your power got the thing moving, but isn't gonna' prevent it hurting you on the way down. I'd say the same applies to the speedster's pressure wave - it's just air he's got moving, instead of a car.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Power immunity-wise, I'd think that the Hypermovement Nova's power immunity prevents any damage from friction through the air, allows him to breathe, etc., but wouldn't protect the guy from a 'secondary effect' like a sonic boom that catches up with him.

Makes hypermovement a less desireable form of transport power, might aswell take teleport and be done with it, atleast the risks of hurting yourself has been reduced, unless every nova with hypermovement has a verry nice base soak and might score.

[malkboy]

Power immunity-wise, I'd think that the Hypermovement Nova's power immunity prevents any damage from friction through the air, allows him to breathe, etc., but wouldn't protect the guy from a 'secondary effect' like a sonic boom that catches up with him. To compare with a Mega-Strong character, it's like throwing a car in the air, then letting it land on your head - your power got the thing moving, but isn't gonna' prevent it hurting you on the way down. I'd say the same applies to the speedster's pressure wave - it's just air he's got moving, instead of a car.

Fairly good example there Prof. Of course.. that's going to suck if you're nearly dead and stop.. taking that one level of bashing and go unconscous.. *grins* But you've converted me.. Of course.. (smiles towards the camera) I'm Evil..

[ProfPotts]

Makes hypermovement a less desireable form of transport power, might aswell take teleport and be done with it, atleast the risks of hurting yourself has been reduced, unless every nova with hypermovement has a verry nice base soak and might score.

Well, even with Hypermovement 5 you'll be hitting yourself with a maximum of 5 dice / Mega-dice worth of Thunderclap - how many Novas do you know with a Bashing Soak of less than 5? With a mere 10 Bashing Soak, you'll never take any damage at all. The same goes for Might - a Might pool of 5 or 6 isn't that rare.

Hypermovement has obvious advantages over Teleport as well. For a start you're aware of stuff along the way, & can keep moving for a long time out of combat - much better than Teleport for, say, searching a forest for a lost child, or whatever. You also don't need to roll to hit the location you're aiming for. You also have all those nifty combat bonuses. Teleport allows a single journey, whilst Hypermovement can allow you to zip all over the place in a single combat for the same cost in QP. I'm not saying that Hypermovement is better than Teleport - just different.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Thunderclap is far less effective than I remember it... With that much damage I might forgoe the quantum expendature of it for any player tha decided to take it. I always saw it as a fairly large concussion bomb as opsosed to the grenade it is...

Hmz... I just realised I screwed up the damage ratings when working out the Hypermovement/enh.movement posts in QZ game mechanics thread.

EDIT: Thanks Prof.

[ProfPotts]

That'd be 'Thunderclap', not 'Shockwave', right? Shockwave is nice cos' it knocks people down, but Hyperspeed doesn't give you a Shockwave effect.

[Alex Green]

The Thuderclap effect isn't all that impressive in any case - it has a radius of Mega-Strength x10 meters, but only effects living things & fragile / brittle things, & only does one die (or maybe one Mega-die, it's not too clear on that point) per dot of Mega-Strength.

There is errata that says it is M-Str x5 normal dice. M-Str 3 => 15 dice. Ditto for Shockwave I think (but I'll have to look it up).

(sound of pages being moved)

Shockwave and Thunderclap, page 157

For damage dice, roll 5 dice bashing per dot of Mega-Strength.  Crush may not be used to make this lethal.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Thanks for reminding us about the errata Alex ::thumbsup

[ProfPotts]

Yep - thanks for pointing that out. It's another of those errata that managed to miss the APG (which only has the part about 'can't be made Lethal with Crush'), but is on the N! Prime site. They also list the Claws + Agg' errata that missed the APG, so we can't rule them out as a source of sensible ideas...

On the other hand, there may be a good reason why the bods at WW decided to alter that particular errata for the final APG draft - & that's the Thunderclap effect from super-sonic Hypermovement. Using those stats, a guy running at Hypermovement 5 does 25 bashing damage to everyone within 50 meters of his movement path - or, in other words, a corridor 100 meters wide & as long as he cares to make it. With an average human Bashing Soak of 2 most people in that area will be very damaged, & many will be dead. The guy could kill everyone in... well, everyone in whatever area he cared to run around (city, state, country, planet...), all for the low, low, cost of 2 QP. That seems a little unreasonable to me.

I'd suggest that if the N! Prime errata is used in this case, then the sonic boom rules needs their own errata as well!

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I'd suggest that if the N! Prime errata is used in this case, then the sonic boom rules needs their own errata as well!

That's what I've been saying for a while now, I even tried to figure out how to do it but the people I ran it by (my gamming group) only looked up at me and said "why bother?" so I gave up ::confused . I think I'll start from scratch, but before I do; are we including enhanced movment in all this?

[ProfPotts]

I've always presumed (& ruled) that Enhanced Movement didn't apply to the out-of-combat movement rates of Hypermovement, just to the 'normal' extra multipliers. That seems to follow the spirit (&, depending on how you read it, the letter) of the text, at least, & avoids rampant sillyness as well.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Ok I'll get to work on a sonic boom damage system (after I get some sleep ::biggrin ), ok what do we want, exactly? an exponetial damage listing was how I set up my previous attempt. The area of effect I'm thinking will be the same as thunderclap, it does seem to work in my mind. I might look into some of the actual physics of pressure waves, there's no doubt a formula for size/mass travelling at x speed would cause a pressure wave of size/force, etc. Anything else?

[Alex Green]

...the Thunderclap effect from super-sonic Hypermovement. Using those stats, a guy running at Hypermovement 5 does 25 bashing damage to everyone within 50 meters of his movement path - or, in other words, a corridor 100 meters wide & as long as he cares to make it. With an average human Bashing Soak of 2 most people in that area will be very damaged, & many will be dead.

Although perhaps needing some errata of its own, I'm not sure this effect is unrealistic. I thought sonic booms were pretty distructive, and being next to a good sized one was a real bad thing.

One thing I will point out, I'm not sure how manuverable someone moving at that speed is going to be. Unless it is Pax, little things like walls, cars, etc are going to be a problem, probably a fatal one.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Had another look at the power and the errata before going off to bug my physicist freind to help me look stuff up... I don't think the damage done under the rules is too bad, sure it's a huge dice pool but it is still dice and not levels. Granted with say 25 dice you'll average around a dozen successes, more than enough to permanently maim any baseline, but as I understand it a sonic boom'll do that.

[Alex Green]

Is it a choice thing? Can a sonic boom be turned off?

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I really don't see how it could be.

[Archer21]

To help further this discussion, I found a nice little bit of info about sonic booms and pressures waves...here's an excerpt.

As a car accelerates, the force of gravity becomes less and less able to keep it firmly in contact with the ground, thanks to aerodynamic lift as air flows over and beneath it. That's why racing cars use the wings that have become so familiar. When that 'car' is powered by jet or rocket engines and seeks its absolute maximum speed, the problem becomes ever more acute. Without very finely tuned aerodynamics, the vehicle will simply take off even at subsonic speeds, but since it is neither designed nor intended for flight, it will only fly momentarily before crashing back to the ground. The forces involved - around forty times gravity at speeds around 800mph (1287kph) - would destroy it.

Air, like water, is a fluid that can be compressed. It is made up of innumerable tiny particles which are primarily molecules of oxygen and nitrogen. These travel at random in all directions and are continuously colliding with one another some five thousand million times every second. This generates both energy and pressure. Though these erratic particles travel at 1200mph (l93lkph), their mean speed is less. At sea level temperature conditions this is 760mph (1223kph), and this is known as the speed of sound or Mach 1, after the Austrian scientist Ernst Mach who made the first calculations of supersonic airflow in the 1870s. It can vary according to altitude and temperature.

When a vehicle travels at subsonic speed, where all airflow is below the speed of sound, it creates pressure waves because of the air's compressibility. These move away from it, and gradually get weaker As it moves into the transonic range, however, where some but not all parts of the airflow are reaching supersonic speed, it begins to catch up with the pressure waves moving ahead of it. When it reaches the speed of sound it is travelling as fast as those pressure waves and instead of being pushed away they fan out to form what is called a Mach wave.

In the case of an aeroplane in supersonic flight, the air waves are distorted into a cone shape and when the outer edges of this cone fan out and hit the ground, the sudden increase in air pressure is detectable as the famous sonic boom. There may be one or two, depending how close the shock waves are together.

What nobody yet knows with any degree of certainty is how a car will react when it creates a sonic boom. At 30,OOOft (9144m) there is plenty of room for a plane's shock waves to dissipate. At ground level there will be no such margin. What effect this will have remains to be seen. Will the shock waves be so severe that they try to lift the vehicle as they bounce back from the ground? Might they be strong enough to damage its structure? Might they actually prove fatal to a projectile and its pilot?

[Ayre el KaBeer]

What effect this will have remains to be seen. Will the shock waves be so severe that they try to lift the vehicle as they bounce back from the ground? Might they be strong enough to damage its structure? Might they actually prove fatal to a projectile and its pilot?

When was this written? I know of 2 land speed record holders who've acheived mach 1. The first one was around 20-30 years ago by an American team sponsored by either Malboro (sp?) or Budweiser, the more recent one was within the last 10 years by a British team. The Brits claim to be the first to achieve mach 1, because the instrumentation used to determine the American teams' cars speed wasn't as acurate as the one's used to determine their speed. The American driver says something like "If our instruments were good enough for the F-14 fighter jet, then they're good enough for us" and "They say we didn't hit mach 1, I supose the sonic boom we heard wasn't enough proof for them" (not derect quotes, just the gist of it).

Neither car was damaged from the shockwave.

[Archer21]

Looks like the article was written in 1993, the Brits broke the sound barrier in 1997...so yes, it's a bit out of date.

I really just wanted to post this because there's some nuggets in there about pressure waves and sonic booms, and the difference between them. From what I understand, a sonic boom is tremendously more powerful than a subsonic pressure wave...so a nova with Hypermovement 1 zipping by someone would certainly cause a windy gust, maybe even enough to knock them down, but I can't imagine much damage occuring.

A sonic boom, on the other hand, would definitely put the hurt on someone.

[ProfPotts]

Great stuff there Archer - cheers! ::thumbsup

I knew my science wasn't up to scratch - that article does explain a lot of stuff. So, only Novas travelling at Hypermovement 3+ get the sonic boom, that's cool. On the other hand, since the effect of the sonic boom is being hit by air traveling at high speed, I fail to see the logic in that air inflicting more damage than a Nova's body would at the same speed (if the errata for Thunderclap is used) - how does the air produce 5 dice of damage per dot, if a Hyperspeed slam at the same speed only gets a bonus of 2 dice per dot? That just doesn't make sense to me. Surely the sonic boom should produce, at most, the same 2 dice per dot? If we stick to the original mechanics for Thunderclap, & count the Thunderclap dice as Mega-dice, then we're in the same damage range as two dice per dot (just a little easier to Soak). Taking the comparison a step further, we could say that since Enhanced Movement adds an extra 2 dice, total, to a Hyperspeed Slam, then it could also add an extra Mega-Die to a Hyperspeed sonic boom.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

It works, it still feels alittle weak to me, using mega dice is a good medium point from being pidly to being ultra distructive. I suggest not using Thunderclaps soft target rules, property damage should be a factor the speedster should have to worry about/have in thier arsenal.

EDIT: Here I go again...

Still doesn't work, the instant you put soak into the equasion it makes the sonic boom little more than a loud slap in the face.

for example a Nova with Hyperrunnng 4

4 mega-dice for the sonic boom

average baseline soak = 2

brings damage down to 2 mega-dice

average of 1 die succeeding

total of 2 bashing damage.

Way around it is to make the damage lethal or to set the damage to 2 health levels per point in hyperrunning.

[Archer21]

Prof, one thing you're leaving out that's fairly important is Strength. While true that a Hyperspeed Slam only adds 2 dice per dot, those 2 dice are added to the speedster's Strength, making it substantially more effective, especially with Mega-Str.

[ProfPotts]

I didn't forget Strength - it's just that the numbers are illogical anyway. A Nova can slam with Str' +9 damage at Hypermovement 3, or inflict an (errata-based) sonic boom of 15 dice damage. At Hypermovement 4 the slam increases to Str' +11 damage, but the sonic boom increases to 20 dice damage. The slam is 2 dice different for the speed increase, the sonic boom is 5 dice different. Strength or no, the air is doing more damage for the speed than the fist. It's like saying a heavy metal club does more damage than a soft foam club, but that the foam club gets more damage benefit when both are swung really fast - that's just nuts ::wacko !

Still doesn't work, the instant you put soak into the equasion it makes the sonic boom little more than a loud slap in the face.

for example a Nova with Hyperrunnng 4

4 mega-dice for the sonic boom

average baseline soak = 2

brings damage down to 2 mega-dice

average of 1 die succeeding

total of 2 bashing damage.

That's a loud slap in the face to everyone near your travel path - for no extra QP cost...

In any case, the range of damage possibilities is still there - 2 Mega-Dice can inflict anything from zero to 6 levels of damage. Also note that an average baseline Might dice pool is also 2, so most victims along that travel path are also being thrown back 4 meters, for an additional 2 dice of bashing damage (Soaked to the minimum of 1 die).

If we took the same example & used the errata rules we'd have every average baseline target near the travel path taking (20 - 2 =) 18 dice or damage, average of 9 levels (KO'd & Hurt with Lethal as well), & being thrown back 36 meters, for an extra (18 - 2 =) 16 dice, average of 8 levels (two levels past dead, Lethal damage). That's just on average. Basically, a guy running at Hypermovement 4 kills everyone within 40 meters of his travel path (& maims a good few up to 36 meters beyond that range, what with all the bodies flying towards them ::blink ! ::wink ) - again, all for no extra QP cost beyond that to start running in the first place. He can cut a swath of destruction (40 meters + 36 meters = 76 meters; x2 = 152 meters, + a 1 meter wide Nova =) 153 meters wide wherever he sprints (in fact, he has to, if he's going top speed). That seems a little extreme to me - especially considering that, although sonic booms can be dangerous things, you can be near one & not die.

[Alex Green]

Reduce Boom damage to Mega-Dice. Not (Level of Mega-Dice x5).

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Prof, I just don't see anyone recovering from the effects of a sonic boom within a couple of hours. By the way, we still haven't discussed applying a sonic strobe effect.

[ProfPotts]

If an 'average' baseline takes an 'average' of two HL Bashing, then yes, they recover in a couple of hours. If he's the unlucky guy who took 6 HL Bashing (not including potential knockback damage) he takes 13 hours to recover, & may suffer other effects (such as impaired vision or hearing).

Sonic booms generally shatter the glass in windows & pop eardrums more than they leave people a red paste across the landscape. Yes, they can be fatal, I'm sure, but let's not go over the top here. Plenty of people at airshows or in the airforce have been pretty near sonic booms & not required extended hospital attention.

Let's not forget, either, the game-balance aspect to all this. The sonic boom is basically a powerful special effect - it shouldn't be made into a game-killer.

For any sonic boom Strobe effect I'd suggest using the standard Strobe rules as a starting point (each success eliminates hearing for a turn, 5+ successes eliminates hearing for a scene). The question then is just how many dice are rolled.

Thinking again about the errata Thunderclap Vs the 'original' Thunderclap, I've never seen any problems with the original's damage pool. Let's face it, the Enhancement isn't designed to stop combat-Novas, but to be used against large groups of baseline targets. At Mega-Strength 1 the Thunderclap hits a 10 meter radius, clears any gases from the area, & possibly puts out fires & the like, as well as doing a single normal die of damage to a baseline target (them being Puny Humans & all...); Mega-Strength 2 increases the radius to 20 meters, & causes the average baseline to check for Knockdown; Mega-Strength 3 is a 30 meter radius, causes a single Mega-Die of damage in the average baseline, & knocks the average baseline back 2 meters; Mega-Strength 4 is a 40 meter radius, 2 Mega-Dice damage, & 4 meters knockback; & Mega-Strength 5 is a 50 meter radius, 3 Mega-Dice, & 6 meters knockback on average. Also remember that it only takes 3 damage successes to Daze the average baseline, & 4 to KO him.

[Alex Green]

Thinking again about the errata Thunderclap Vs the 'original' Thunderclap, I've never seen any problems with the original's damage pool. Let's face it, the Enhancement isn't designed to stop combat-Novas, but to be used against large groups of baseline targets.

Fine.

At Mega-Strength 1 the Thunderclap hits a 10 meter radius, clears any gases from the area, & possibly puts out fires & the like, as well as doing a single normal die of damage to a baseline target (them being Puny Humans & all...);

I see no reason why this would be an unsoakable effect. So if you assume the baseline in question has a stamina of 4 (i.e. solider), then this does no damage. In fact, it does no damage at Mega-Strength 4.

[ProfPotts]

I didn't suggest it was unsoakable - it's just that baselines take a minimum of a single (normal, not Mega-) die of Bashing damage from all attacks - no matter their Soak. The only reason that Novas don't also take that damage is that they can use the Puny Human rule (if the ST is allowing it).

[Alex Green]

I didn't suggest it was unsoakable - it's just that baselines take a minimum of a single (normal, not Mega-) die of Bashing damage from all attacks - no matter their Soak. The only reason that Novas don't also take that damage is that they can use the Puny Human rule (if the ST is allowing it).

That seems fine for hypermove.

But it seems a bit weak for M-Str 5 + Thunderclap.

Or shockwave either.

[ProfPotts]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'a bit weak' ::confused ? 3 NP or 5 XP for a 50 meter radius attack that does 5 Mega-Dice of damage seems more than reasonable to me. Shockwave, in particular, has some nice secondary effects as well. It's not like the character looses the ability to dish out that 7[25] punch for no QP cost just because he takes either of those Enhancements. Are these two weak compared with, for example, the Mega-Dexterity 5 guy's Rapid Strike Enhancement (of the same value as the Mega-Strength 5 guy's Shockwave or Thunderclap) - the one that allows him to add a mere 5 normal dice to his punch value for the same QP cost? Or, in fact, any of the Enhancements? Let's not forget that's what these attacks are - additional little tricks to pull with the Mega-Attribute in question, not high-cost powers in & of themselves.

If a Mega-Strength character wants a more powerful 'Thunderclap' or 'Shockwave' style attack, then it's pretty easy to build one as a Q-Bolt with Extras, & maybe Strengths & Weaknesses.

[Alex Green]

Rapid strike is, IMHO, very weak, unless it is for a specialist character. It "stacks" damage on top of what every physical attack they are doing and other than claws, nothing else does that.

And I wouldn't call it "3 NP" if the Nova already has paid for a Mega-Stat of 5.

In effect, under that rulling these enhancements do not gain much (if anything) moving from mega-stat 1 to 5. Being attacked by an army of baselines, Thunderclap can't be used to stun anyone (or knock them down) and has to be used an average of 17.5 times before knocking a baseline out (7.8 times if you use mega-dice for damage).

The effect being simulated is the Hulk (or others) using it to make half the Avengers reel (normally in the comics I see this being used by slow guys who have trouble hitting their super foe).

[Archer21]

There's a whole lotta stuff included with Thunderclap besides damage that can reel the Avengers. The possible Strobe effect, for one. Also the check for knockback.

The only Marvel comics character I remember using Thunderclap on any regular basis was the Hulk, and even still, he normally only used it against baselines. If he was scrappin' with a group of other super-powered beings, he'd usually Shockwave to knock them off their feet, or just grab very large objects to throw at them. If things got too intense, he'd Quantum Leap himself out of the fray.

Hulk is a huge exception though...it was so hard to hurt the guy in the first place, and he just got stronger the longer the fight lasted.

As far as other Thunderclappy characters in the comics, most of the time the technique was used as a stall tactic, or to knock them away(or down). I don't remember it ever causing very much damage.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Just a thought... Bashing QBolt/Immolate maxed to explode would be a far superior 'knockback' attack (albeit shorter ranged) and one level still only costs 3NP.

A Mega-Str 5 character with thuderclap is dealing either 5 dice or 5 mega dice, and to get level 5 he needs a Q rating of 4.

With the same Q4, he has a decent chance of scoring the 2 successes for the max on his level 1 QBolt/Immolate, he would deal;

QBolt 4[12]B with a 48meter radius.

Immolate 10B (corebook), 7B (errata) with a 30m/21m radius.