Underworld

[knave]

I wondered out to see Underworld tonight... Whatta mistaka to maka! ::sarcasm

If I were white-wolf I'd seriously reconsider the law suit - particularly on the 'plot similarities' line.

To put it bluntly I think they would have been better off calling it 'Underwhelmed' - the plot was about as original as runny eggs and most of the acting had the distinct whiff of rotten ones. It pains me that not going to see a movie like Underworld will discourage such movies being made - and I want to believe that sooner or later they'll produce a good one. This just wasn't it.

Kate Beckinsdale was ok, I suppose, but I think they could have found an actress more suited to play the role. And the PVC was really, really just overykill. Pretty much everyone else overacted for all they were worth with the possible exceptions of the 'hapless human' who doesn't really gett very many lines anyway.

The thing is, the movie did have the beginnings of potential, but it was like the director decided to save exploring the interesting bits of the various societies for 'the sequel' and concentrated largely on action and meaningless posing sequences (a certain amount of which, I suppose, can't be avoided in vampire movies or the matrix type movies). Consequently the whole movie suffered from truck sized plot holes that various actors and cgi-Lycans ambled haplessly through.

The very beginning of the movie starts with a voice-over with Kate Beckinsdale's Celine outlining the history of the war. This ends with her saying that like the weapons of the previous century, her cast - the death dealers (warriors vs Lycans) are becoming obsolete. Now that is an interesting idea and would have been quite cool to run with. As it was it bore no relevance to anything that happened - Yes - they do have some new fangled weapons, but someone is still required to fire them. A supernatural armistice in the face of a cold war style arms race where someone steals one side's Major MacGuffin weapon could have been a lot more interesting than what was actually delivered. Aside from that, having the big hidden truth not written in five mile high letters on the city walls would also have been nice.

-Knave

[Arcanum_V]

Underworld is a lot a like a White Wolf game -- a really, really, really bad White Wolf game. One with a Storyteller that has completely forgotten that there might be mortals somewhere in the world. One that that thinks that a city could sustain dozens of vampires that all live in the big haunted-looking vampire mansion and hang around with each other all the time. One that thinks there would be a pack of dozens of werewolves that all run around en masse in the city sewers. And one that thinks that abso-freaking-lutely everyone carries an assault rifle loaded with Special Bullets™ that kill your magical opponent. The only thing it's missing are the light grenades from Blade II.

Apparently vampires have a Discipline that could be called something like Bangbangus or Ballisticus. At one dot, a vampire's gun sounds really, really loud. At two dots, the vampire's gun can shoot nearly endlessly and only needs reloaded at dramatically appropriate times. At three dots, the vampire's gun acquires the Enhanced Impact Knack from Adventure! so it can knock targets backwards.

I really can't thik of anything good to say about Underworld. It's pretty, but Dark City is pretty and it has a good story and less stupid stuff (and there's actually a reason for it to be night all the time). The Crow is also pretty, and it has a good story. For a night of WoDish movies, there are a lot of better choices than Underworld.

[Heritage]

White Wolf and Nacy Collins have filed a joint suit against the filmmakers, citing I think as many as 60 points of similarity between both the WoD and Collins novels and the plot of Underworld. Based on the press releases at WW site, sounds like the judge agrees with them, at least intitially.

[SnakeEyes]

And one that thinks that abso-freaking-lutely everyone carries an assault rifle loaded with Special Bullets™ that kill your magical opponent.  The only thing it's missing are the light grenades from Blade II.

Actually, wouldn't it make sense for special weapons to come about after centuries of war? After all, to have any chance of winning, each side needs to adapt to the opposition at hand, rather than sticking to same tactics and using only what can be bought.

"Adapt or die" comes to mind.

“Never let the enemy pick the battle site.” and "In war the only sure defense is offense, and the efficiency of the offense depends on the warlike souls of those conducting it." (General George S. Patton) are others.

It's pretty, but Dark City is pretty and it has a good story and less stupid stuff (and there's actually a reason for it to be night all the time).

So the fact that it's a movie about vampires (and werewolves) isn't a good reason for it to be night throughout?

I'm sorry guys, but I like movies because I never compare them to anything else. I'd have to watch this and judge for my self. ::smile

P.S. Knave, what's wrong with PVC? On Kate Beckinsdale? ::sly

[Arcanum_V]

Actually, wouldn't it make sense for special weapons to come about after centuries of war? After all, to have any chance of winning, each side needs to adapt to the opposition at hand, rather than sticking to same tactics and using only what can be bought.

So the fact that it's a movie about vampires (and werewolves) isn't a good reason for it to be night throughout?

This is exactly the problem. The film never accounts for the day at all, not even to explain why the werewolves don't attack the vampires while they're asleep/sequestered or whatever it is that they do when the sun's up. It could be easily fixed with a comment like "The Lycans lose their shapechanging powers during the day," but it isn't.

My point isn't that the werewolves and vampires shouldn't have specialized weapons. It's that the filmmakers got caught up in riding the black leather coattails of The Matrix, Equilibrium, Blade, and the handful of other leather-clad gunbunny films that have shown up recently, and they sacrificed other elements to get there.

[knave]

and there's nothing wrong with pvc. In that movie though it was just too cheesy.

If you think about - there is absolutely no reason why vampires should want to look like goths. Also - if I were a vampire assassin type choosing something to wear when I go out to kick some butt it'd be something considerably less shiny and squeeky than PVC.

[ProfPotts]

Just saw it - & thought it was excellent! ::thumbsup

The very beginning of the movie starts with a voice-over with Kate Beckinsdale's Celine outlining the history of the war. This ends with her saying that like the weapons of the previous century, her cast - the death dealers (warriors vs Lycans) are becoming obsolete. Now that is an interesting idea and would have been quite cool to run with. As it was it bore no relevance to anything that happened - Yes - they do have some new fangled weapons, but someone is still required to fire them. A supernatural armistice in the face of a cold war style arms race where someone steals one side's Major MacGuffin weapon could have been a lot more interesting than what was actually delivered.

I'm pretty sure the point she was making was that the Lycans were nearly all dead - the war was nearly over. It was a scene setting thing really.

Underworld is a lot a like a White Wolf game -- a really, really, really bad White Wolf game. One with a Storyteller that has completely forgotten that there might be mortals somewhere in the world. One that that thinks that a city could sustain dozens of vampires that all live in the big haunted-looking vampire mansion and hang around with each other all the time. One that thinks there would be a pack of dozens of werewolves that all run around en masse in the city sewers. And one that thinks that abso-freaking-lutely everyone carries an assault rifle loaded with Special Bullets™ that kill your magical opponent. The only thing it's missing are the light grenades from Blade II.

The vampires were gathered in the mansion from all over the world for a once per hundred years ritual - there was no suggestion that they all lived there all the time.

The lycans were also gathered in numbers greater than they had for hundreds of years - the last few of the species coming together for the last move in a thousand year war.

They all carried guns, 'cos they were warriors at war, ready to fight what most likely would be the final battle. The lycan's 'special bullets' were there to make them a threat again - since most of the vampires thought that they weren't at that point (being nearly wiped out as a species & all). The vampire's 'special bullets' were silver (duh!) - which just seems to be the ammo' of choice when hunting werewolves...

This is exactly the problem. The film never accounts for the day at all, not even to explain why the werewolves don't attack the vampires while they're asleep/sequestered or whatever it is that they do when the sun's up. It could be easily fixed with a comment like "The Lycans lose their shapechanging powers during the day," but it isn't.

Maybe 'cos one of the bigger plot twists is that the lycans don't actually want to kill all the vampires?

On top of that, it does mention that the lycans could only shapeshift under a full moon - the ability to change at will was a more recent development.

It's that the filmmakers got caught up in riding the black leather coattails of The Matrix, Equilibrium, Blade, and the handful of other leather-clad gunbunny films that have shown up recently, and they sacrificed other elements to get there.

Ah, but long black coats & guns are cool ::cool ! They were when they did it back in the old Westerns & gangster films, they were when Hong Kong action flicks did it, & they were when the Matrix did it too. I don't actually recall anyone in Equilibrium wearing leather (the main guys look more like priests to me) in any case, but the long-coat & gun combo' is hardly a new concept. ::sly

If you think about - there is absolutely no reason why vampires should want to look like goths.

Very true - but the film just wouldn't have been the same if they all sat around in colourful knitted sweaters... ::tongue ::wink

[phoenix]

I haven't seen it yet, but I will throw in my 2 cents on a few points.

I am 100% with Knave on the "gothic vampire" thing. Holy cow. I happen to think goths look kind of silly anyway, though, so I'm biased.

And incidentally, my favorite leather-duster-clad-gun-bunny movie (apart from the Matrix movies, of course) is "The Boondock Saints". Anyone seen it?

[Bahamut810]

Very true - but the film just wouldn't have been the same if they all sat around in colourful knitted sweaters...

Lol!

But seriously about the goth thing...

Vampires are hunters *in the night* are you really going to hunt someone wearing bright pink? Wearing black not only looks good, but it keeps them from being seen so easily. I know that most of my clothes are black (as that is my best color to wear), and I know that I like to look good. So why cant vampires do that?

[SnakeEyes]

Hear hear!

Bahamut, ProfPotts, you guys read my mind.

But dude, Knave, have you ever seen a goth? The style is Gothic, but the people do not dress as goths (from what I've seen on the official website anyway). I wear completely dark clothing most of the time. I prefer black clothing to anyother colour. Does that mean I am a goth? ::smile

It's almost like people believing vegetarians eat fish... (and if anyone types 'Don't they?', I'll scream)

::smile Hmm... I'm liking this so far. Continue the argument.

[knave]

But dude, Knave, have you ever seen a goth?

Well - I've dressed in black and gone to goth rock clubs. (no make-up, piercings or tattoos though... (not for me. ow. and ow. ::tongue ) Quite a lot actually especially during my uni years. And I've seen actual Germans. Actually my Mom is German.

So... I think I'll answer yes to that one ::tongue

The style is Gothic, but the people do not dress as goths (from what I've seen on the official website anyway).

Lol ::tongue I'm not surprised that there is a website - but I am quite surprised that anyone went there..

I wear completely dark clothing most of the time. I prefer black clothing to anyother colour.

Does that mean I am a goth? 

Me too mate. Actually its very gothic to deny your gothness. Ask the sisters of mercy ::devilangel

[phoenix]

I'm not talking about just wearing black. I wear a lot of black myself. I'm talking black and white makeup, with red seeping out of the eyes and mouth.

I mean, they're vampires - of course they're going to wear black. Just how gothic were the vamps in Underworld?

[knave]

But seriously about the goth thing...

Vampires are hunters *in the night* are you really going to hunt someone wearing bright pink? Wearing black not only looks good, but it keeps them from being seen so easily

As I said before - black is fine. Black PVC is shiny and squeeky and altogether schlock for a vampire to be wearing. I'm sure there's a magazine somewhere entitled 'the modern vampire'. I would have rofled if something like that had been peeking out of Celine's coat pocket!

On the other hand, if I was a wearwolf I'd order my minions to dress as bankers and accountants and pizza boys in dark greys and browns (which are better night camou anyway) and puce (which is a colour so no-dignity that no-one can actually see it) and to utterly illiminate anyone looking 'cool' - just in case.

soon the WORLD will be mine!!!! ::devilangel

MWHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAA

[knave]

"The Boondock Saints". Anyone seen it?

Boondock Saints is great!

Now why couldn't they make a vampire movie like that? For those of you who haven't seen it, its a movie where a couple of apparently pretty normal Irish lads find themselves through circumstance on the wrong side of the Russian Mafia. Anyway - after one of their old friends is 'pressurised to sell his bar' they decide that the world would be a better place without these particular russians bugging them. So they set out on what is more or less a crusade (and they do see themselves as holy warriors) to completely destroy the mafia operation along with their inept friend who is an Italian Mafia courier and their information source. If I told you any more I'd ruin the plot - but trust me - its excellent.

Maybe that's what's really annoying me about Underworld. Whenever they make a vampire movie all its about is about being a vampire. Everything boils down to how / why vampires came about. Every time. And the actors ham it up because there's not a lot of other information about whatever character they are playing other than what they are. You'd think someone who'd lived for hundreds of years amongst others who'd lived for hundreds of years would be interesting.

Now take Celine in Underworld, her major motivation is that her parents were killed by Lycans sometime in the past. Wouldn't it be cool if she admitted to one of the other characters that she couldn't even remember what her parents looked like? Or that she didn't care anymore. Suddenly everything the character does comes into question. The only character who could have anything vaguely ambiguous said about him was Lucien - whose actions could have been purely motivated by spite - or by something better.

Also - the whole bit about the elders leapfrogging through time. Interesting idea - but why? And why doesn't one the reigning ones say - 'sod that' - I'm here to stay - I love the smell of elder vampire in the morning?

[knave]

I'm pretty sure the point she was making was that the Lycans were nearly all dead - the war was nearly over. It was a scene setting thing really.

In hindsight I would agree that that was the point she was making - but then why did she say 'like the weapons of previous ages... yadda yadda... we are obsolete'?

We know what replaces obsolete weapons and its not bunches of flowers and group hugs. ::crazy

[phoenix]

We know what replaces obsolete weapons and its not bunches of flowers and group hugs.

I beg to differ.

Man, I'm so glad the old threads were spared the ax..

::offtopic

::withstupid

[phoenix]

Incidentally, the Saints provided a lot of inspiration for Sean in Dreams of Dragons, for anyone following that.

[ProfPotts]

...but then why did she say 'like the weapons of previous ages... yadda yadda... we are obsolete'?

I think it was meant to be the point of her character. All she's had in her life, since her family was killed, was the war against the lycans. Now they're nearly all dead. When they are all dead, she (as a warrior) will be obsolete - the motivating force in her life will be gone, & she'll be forced to realise how empty her life really is.

The rest of the vampires are out there enjoying life, throwing parties, et al - the 'death dealers' (warriors) are the 'sad acts' that can't relax, & take everything too seriously.

It's that realisation that there is more to life than the war which drives Celine's relationship with Michael. She first really notices him when he goes to the aid of an innocent bystander who's been shot in the initial subway battle between the death dealers & the lycans. Celine tracks Michael down to investigate why the lycans are interested in him, true, but she's also seen that selfless pro-life aspect of his character - she's an emotionless killer, yes, but in the true tradition of all female emotionless killers in movies she has hidden depths of emotion that Michael stirs in her - presumably because of her background & the slaughter of her family: here's a guy who saves lives, not takes them.

Later, when Michael has been told what's going on, he asks the awkward questions that no true soldier really wants to hear - Why are you at war? What's the point? What is there to gain? - Celine gives her stock answer ("They killed my family") but isn't really convinced by her own words.

Michael, therefore, causes Celine to begin to think that there is more to live for than just the war.

At least, that's how I saw it. ::confused

[knave]

Later, when Michael has been told what's going on, he asks the awkward questions that no true soldier really wants to hear - Why are you at war? What's the point? What is there to gain? - Celine gives her stock answer ("They killed my family") but isn't really convinced by her own words

The question which leads back to the creation of the vamps and wolves...

Yeah - I see / saw most of the stuff you're saying - but you have to admit that there is no originality to any of that - which was my original gripe about the plot. Also - did you not find the acting a bit ott. esp Kraven. Also - 'Craven' means cowardly - so a vampire called Kraven is a lot like a cowboy called 'Yellow'.

[ProfPotts]

Ah - there are no original plots - just well or badly executed ones. ::wink

I actually thought the acting was ok - the characters needed to be stereotypes / archetypes to a certain extent, to get the point of their roles across in the realatively short time allocated to each (what with all the required action / special effects scenes, et al).

The whole 'Kraven' thing I kinda' missed at the time - it is an Eastern European name, after all (plus I kept thinking of 'the hunter' from Spiderman ::wink ). 'Selene' is also a name for the moon - which could be a link to the lycans - but I doubt it. 'Victor' made me think 'Frankenstein' - go figure ::confused .

It's not like Kraven is meant to be anything else, even from the start - Celine refers to him as a 'bureaucrat' not a 'warrior' the first time he's seen. Some of the 'plot twists' aren't really meant as such, as far as I could tell. The fact that Kraven is a plotting wimp isn't meant to be a revelation, just a character type.

[knave]

Ah - there are no original plots - just well or badly executed ones. 

Maybe not in a an absolute sense - but it is possible to mix it up a bit. For example: the Matrix managed to mix computers with philosphy/mysticism/fantasy questing with long coats and gun slinging and kung fu - things mainstream cinema doesn't generally expect to find together. Dusk till Dawn did a classic flip from gangster movie to Schlock Vampire movie in seconds.

Other films are surreal enough that you tend to suspend disbelief to a degree. The Crow for example. The world that that film happens in IS a world of darkness. The crimelord and his mountain of cocaine, his incestuous relationship with his seer sister - the extreme halloween. The general normality isn't normal. The same for something like Natural Born Killers. Underworld could have gone for this - but it didn't.

Anyway... other points.

I actually thought the acting was ok - the characters needed to be stereotypes / archetypes to a certain extent, to get the point of their roles across in the realatively short time allocated to each (what with all the required action / special effects scenes, et al).

Ok. Number of characters: Selene, Michael, Viktor, Kraven, Lucien, the blond = 6. Compare that with something like Dusk till Dawn where there are 5 (not counting Sex Machine or the Marine whose roles are about the same size as the blonde's) characters and half the movie is almost solid combat. Which set of characters do you know better by the end of the movie? My money is on the Gecko boys. As I've said - my problem with the movie stems from the fact that the characters are cutouts. They are exactly the sort of thing I cringe about when someone offers to GM vampire and someone pipes up with "I'm going to play a Tremere."

It's not like Kraven is meant to be anything else, even from the start - Celine refers to him as a 'bureaucrat' not a 'warrior' the first time he's seen.

Granted. Still, he wasn't even a good bureaucrat.

bottom line -

When I went to see Underworld, I wasn't expecting poetry, but I wasn't expecting doggerel either. I can see it was aiming for the poetry - but it got side tracked by 'film fashion'.

You liked it though - which is good cause it means one of us wasn't disappointed ::crazy

[SnakeEyes]

Maybe not in a an absolute sense - but it is possible to mix it up a bit.  For example: the Matrix managed to mix computers with philosphy/mysticism/fantasy questing with long coats and gun slinging and kung fu - things mainstream cinema doesn't generally expect to find together.

But wasn't the Matrix based on the Anime movie, 'Ghost in the Shell'? At least, that's what the Wachowski brothers said...

That would mean the Matrix isn't as original as many people believe...

[ProfPotts]

You liked it though - which is good cause it means one of us wasn't disappointed 

::biggrin Yeah! ::biggrin

Still - I like ol' Dolph's version of 'Masters of the Universe' - so I guess I'm easy to please... ::wink

[knave]

But wasn't the Matrix based on the Anime movie, 'Ghost in the Shell'? At least, that's what the Wachowski brothers said...

That would mean the Matrix isn't as original as many people believe...

I think you missed the part about main stream cinema.

[knave]

Yeah! 

Still - I like ol' Dolph's version of 'Masters of the Universe' - so I guess I'm easy to please... 

Lol. And I have all the evil dead movies and would happily pay quite a bit to get hold of Ford Fairlaine - Rock and Roll detective on DVD... ::cool

[Ayre el KaBeer]

There were people who thought the matrix was original?

[Bahamut810]

I dont see who cares what is origonal or whatnot...

As long as its good and presented good, isent that all that matters in the end?

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Certainly all I cared about. ::withstupid

*not calling you stupid but it's the closest one i am after. p.s.

Lightsabers are always cool! ::jedi ::sith

[Asbjørn]

Lol. And I have all the evil dead movies and would happily pay quite a bit to get hold of Ford Fairlaine - Rock and Roll detective on DVD... ::cool

Are you comparing Ford Fairlane to Masters of the Universe?!?!? ::shocked

Un-f*cking-believable! ::smokin

[knave]

So we're gonna do this mano-a-mano are we?

Someone break out the ****ing sambuca milkshakes ::smokin

[SnakeEyes]

::offtopic (why does he look so angry? He's the one doing off topic- so maybe there should be a lynch-mob smiley for replies)

Sambuca... good for burning. Better than pure butanol or isopropyl alcohol...

::lookaround Did I just say that? ::ninja I'll be going now...

[Quasar]

OK ok I know i'm going to get slapped for this ::crazy

What the hel...err heck is PVC? regardless of the colour, what is it *ducking*

[ProfPotts]

Polyvinyl chloride or polychloroethene: the most widely used of the vinyl plastics formed by polymerization or vinyl chloride chloroethine (H2CCHCI). PVC is used for pipes, ducts, mouldings & as a fabric in clothing & furnishings. (Geddes & Grosset - Dictionary of Science).

Or...

Shiny, tight-fitting, plastic clothing favoured (along with leather & rubber) in the fetish scene.

Or so I've heard... ::halo

[Quasar]

Thanks Prof.

[Asbjørn]

So we're gonna do this mano-a-mano are we?

Someone break out the ****ing sambuca milkshakes  ::smokin

Mano-a-mano? What the hell does mano-a-mano mean? Use your head, snapperhead! ::wink

Aww, man! I could quote Ford Fairlane for hours! ::smokin Come to think of it, I have... On more than one occasion... ::confused

[knave]

However you look at it - that movie kicks butt... I can't believe its not on DVD.

[Asbjørn]

Says who? It's on DVD in Norway, anyway...

[knave]

Amazon US seems to think it's only being released in december.

I've been looking for ages.

The Adventures of Ford Fairlane (1990) ,,,,

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