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Aberrant: Quantum Zero - QZ - game mechanics


Asbjørn

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Its been since last friday i think since he last posted...

I hope he is ok. I hope wild boars havent tore through his hometown maiming and...ummm...hurting everyone in their way only to fine them selves breaking the poor prof's door, finding him asleep then eating him like a pack of hyena eats a sick wildebeast...

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Ok, I'm back. Sorry about that - just took a bit of an unscheduled holiday (it was either that or 'going postal' ::crazy at work - & that never works out as well as you'd hope... ::sly ).

I hope wild boars havent tore through his hometown maiming and...ummm...hurting everyone in their way

Funny you should mention that - a local farmer from the village was gored by a boar the other day ::nervous - very nasty it was too. Damn things just 'spark off' for no reason, & without warning ::angry . Took a huge chunk out of his arm - poor chap ended up in hospital. Still, the boar stopped with him & spared the rest of the village ::wink .

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Ok, I have a rules question I'd like some input on:

The description for a duratiuon of 'Maintenance' appears to indicate that you can only have that power going on one target at a time - after the time limit is up you either renew the power (with the same result level), renew the power (& re-roll the result level) or let the power fade. I've been presuming that if you wanted to use such a power again (on a seperate target, for example) then you'd need to 'cancel' the power prematurely in order to re-roll the result.

This has always seemed logical to me, especially considering which powers have the Maintenance duration - no-one wants to allow guys with Force Field to activate the thing ten times & stack the Soak.

However, Nullifier brought up an interesting point - maybe such powers can be used again, but can only be used to effect each target once. So, for example, a guy with Force Field & the Extra to effect another person at the same time, could use it on as many people as he wanted (presuming he has the QP), & all those Maintenance durations would be going on at the same time?

What do you guys think - I'm not as sure about this as I once was. ::confused

A specific question was raised about the Disrupt power in particular. Can the Disrupter use the power many times on the Disruptee, & expect all the powers he's targeted to be Disrupted for their full Maintenance durations? Does the 'one power at a time' just mean the number of powers effected 'per shot', or is it refering to the number of powers effected in total?

How does this then relate to Concentration duration powers? Can you use such a power on as many targets as you can spare the accumulated dice pool penalty on?

Comments & opinions will be most appreciated, since the way I rule on this one will effect a lot of powers in the game.

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For maintenance powers I'd leave them alone, could you imagine someone with claws having to activate claws for each oponent he/she is facing? I say once the power is active it lasts for the maintenace duration which is; in combat: quantum plus power rating rounds. out of combat: usually one scence unless storyteller disaproves. This saves on having to roll for powers every few seconds and spares precious quantum points, plus it puts the QZ-Elites characters in a bind, they're taking on a military base they can't afford to spend 100+ QP to protect themselves against all 700 troops, and the tanks and choppers, and then spend another 100+ to be able to take out the place.

As for disrupt I always assumed it meant each time it was 'fired' at a target it cancelled one power. No idea for what to do with the concentration powers though.

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No, no, no... The question I'm asking is "can you activate a Maintenance power more than once (whilst the previous activations are still going)?"

E.g. if you have Force Field with the Others Extra can you only use it on one other person at a time, or can you activate it on one person, leave it running, & move to the next person to activate it on them as well?

In other words, does Maintenance mean "fire & forget" - it keeps running for it's duration no matter what (even if the power's originator uses the power again, is ko'd or killed, or leaves the power's normal range)? Or does it mean "maintenance"?

Is a Maintenance power essentially independant of the character after it's "launched"?

Any actual book examples of a character activating a Maintenance power against more than one target at a time would be good (if unlikely - WW not being very big on helpful examples).

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I see what you're saying might be possible: that you can activate as many force fields as you want, but you still can't stack them because they erase the previous one.

The question this brings to my mind is, wouldn't this imply that you could knock out one of the defenses of someone like, say, Pax, by using a force field on them and having it erase their uber force field? Or would the victim be granted a resisting roll, or what?

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Since the Prof thought my arguments were at least a bit convincing, I though I'd share 'em, verbatim, because i'm lazy and don't feel like repeating myself. ::wink ::thumbsup

As for the disrupt thing, I'm not so sure about that, because it talks about it getting more difficult to disrupt more powers on the same person, implying that it's possible to use it more than once on the same person or to have it in effect and use it again on a different person. Also, with maintenance powers such as Imprison and Wall, I'm pretty sure can be used multiple times at once. Sure, I can't try to disrupt the /same/ power in the same person twice in a row, but different people should work as they would be different instances of the power. The reason most maintenance powers can't be used more than once at a time is because the second use is really just the same as the first, forcefield, for example. You centainly couldn't create more than one around yourself, because you're basically targeting the same thing with the same exact power, and the same results twice. However, you should be able to create a forcefield around yourself, and then using the Wall extra create a wall of force as well. This isn't 'stacking' of the effects of a power so much as it is creating multiple different effects using the same power, and maintaining them all at once, which should be doable given enough quantum points.

In my opinion, this goes for any Concentration power and many Special, Variable, and Fixed duration powers, unless they say otherwise. ::bigsmile

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However, you should be able to create a forcefield around yourself, and then using the Wall extra create a wall of force as well.

How could you do that? I thought if you bought an extra you couldn't just "turn it off"; you had to buy the powers seperately. Is that what you're talking about?

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My reading of the issue is as follows:

Maintenance powers require concentration to activate, but continue on their own once active - all they require you to do is to pay their maintenance cost.

Concentration powers require exactly that. Use another effect whilst you have a conc power going and you're either going to have to drop your concentration power, or, if your GM is generous make some sort of serious concentration roll. Having 2 concentration effects - even with the same power would seem like a nono to me.

-Knave

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RE: Extras.

Yeap, you are always stuck with them. If you have Q-Bolt + Area, you can't make select shots.

RE: Maintenance.

If you want to (for example) Disrupt several people at once? ... Disrupt might be the only power where this is applicable. ... I guess I don't have a problem with it (normally it should be pointless however). One comment, if someone does layer their FFs (i.e. with the wall extra), then the protected target should only get the better of the two FFs (i.e. it shouldn't stack).

RE: Concentration.

This should be the same as maintenance. I.e. if you can use a maintenance power several times, then you should be able to use concentration. HOWEVER, the 2nd Concentration power (Domination and/or Telepathy are the only ones that comes to mind) is at -2 succ (as normal). The 3rd would be at -4, etc.

If we allow this.

RE: Disrupt.

Regardless of the whether you can use it multiple times, I think the intention of the power's description prevents you from using it multiple times on the same person. I.e. you can Disrupt someone's Q-Bolt OR their flight, but you can't do both without an extra.

(page 191) "Disrupt can affect any power; the nova may, for example disrupt his target's Q-Bolt one turn, and his FF the next. However, without an Extra, it cannot affect multiple powers at once...."

(And yes, it is open to dispute).

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RE: Maintenance.

If you want to (for example) Disrupt several people at once? ... Disrupt might be the only power where this is applicable. ... I guess I don't have a problem with it (normally it should be pointless however).

It's also applicable for the Disorient power, among others, like Density Control with the Affect Others extra, for example...

RE: Disrupt.

Regardless of the whether you can use it multiple times, I think the intention of the power's description prevents you from using it multiple times on the same person. I.e. you can Disrupt someone's Q-Bolt OR their flight, but you can't do both without an extra.

(page 191) \"Disrupt can affect any power; the nova may, for example disrupt his target's Q-Bolt one turn, and his FF the next. However, without an Extra, it cannot affect multiple powers at once....\"

Erm. I think you may be misreading that. It specifically lists an Extra that allows you to Disrupt two powers at the same time with a single use of the power. I believe that's what the text is referring to there, the fact that normally you can only target one power per use...

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I'd have to agree with Nullifier on this one. The way I read it, Disrupt allows you to target any Quantum powers, one power affected per use of Disrupt. So, you can Disrupt QBolt one turn, then FF the next turn, then Flight, etc....all on the same person, but only at a turn-based rate.

Another important thing about Disrupt is that it doesn't actually negate the other's power completely; it just has the capacity to. Disrupt removes successes from the other Nova's use of the power, usually just making it harder for the Disruptee to use his power.

Example: NovaQ has QBolt, NovaD has Disrupt.

NovaQ has 3 Quantum and 2 Node, and QBolt 3. Quantum plus Node gives him 5 dice to resist Disrupt.

NovaD has 4 Intelligence, 2 Disrupt. This gives him 6 dice to use Disrupt.

NovaD rolls, gets 4 succ. NovaQ rolls, get 3 succ. This means that for the Maintenance duration of Disrupt, NovaQ's QBolt is now reduced by one, taking it down to QBolt 2.

Okay, so next turn, NovaD wants to Disrupt NovaQ's FF(of 3). Since he is targeting the same person, NovaD's difficulty goes up by one, making his diff 8.

So, they each roll again. This time, due to the higher difficulty, NovaD gets only 2 succ.

NovaQ, getting lucky this time, rolls 4 succ. Ha! NovaQ promptly tells NovaD to bugger off.

So, yes, you can use Disrupt on the same person over and over again, affecting a different power each turn for your Maintenance duration. However, for every subsequent use of Disrupt on the same target, your diff increases by 1. Also, Disrupt only reduces the power level of the affected power by 1 per success above the target's succ.

Man. I think that was my longest post yet. ::dontgetit

I hope it made sense.

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Okay, so next turn, NovaD wants to Disrupt NovaQ's FF(of 3). Since he is targeting the same person, NovaD's difficulty goes up by one, making his diff 8.

Now you're stuck in World of Darkness. In the Aeon games, higher difficulty means more successes needed. The number to roll is always seven.

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As far as I'm concerned, you can fire off a Maintanence power as many times as you feel you can afford.

Regarding stuff like Force Field, multiple uses don't stack. You're Turning On your FF, essentially just charging it up again with each use, so to make it complicated:

Round 1, FF1 +6 Soak, duration 5 (Nova now has 6 Soak)

Round 2, FF2 +8 Soak, D 5 (Nova now has 8 Soak)

Round 3, FF3 +4 Soak, D5 (Nova still has 8 Soak)

Round 4, Dum de dum....

Round 5, FF1 expires (Nova still has 8 Soak)

Round 6, FF2 expires (Nova now has *4* Soak)

Round 7, FF3 expires (Nova runs like a girly-man)

The durations are well open to ST decision about at what point durations expire.

Regarding concentration, I also believe that the Nova should be able to handle whatever s/he can handle.

Tis far more interesting to Telepathically contact 4 mates, and hold a networked conversation, with the Nova in the middle concentrating for all s/he's worth, than to simply be able to contact one mind at a time.

As for Disrupt, I think it should follow the above guidlines. IE I'm able to hit Bob with Disrupt as many times as I like, so long as I pay the cost for each hit. But only one power gets affected with each attack, the Difficulty goes up each time (as per the description), and he's affected by all the attacks as long as it lasts. Nasty, but it's still quite expensive to do, and you're only shutting down one Nova (if you're lucky) out of a potential group, and it's taking a while to do.

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(page 191) \"Disrupt can affect any power; the nova may, for example disrupt his target's Q-Bolt one turn, and his FF the next. However, without an Extra, it cannot affect multiple powers at once....\"

To clear this up...

Im sure this means that you can affect 1 power a turn. But not more then that in a turn.

I.e.

Person 1 has Disrupt, Person 2 has flight, Force Field and Q- bolt

turn 1...disrupt Q-bolt

turn 2...disrupt Force Field

Turn 3...Disrupt flight

However....

Person 1 has disrupt (extra powers(x1) extra), person 2 same as above

Turn 1...Disrup Q-bolt, Force Field

turn 2...Disrupt Flight

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Interesting comments all.

The issue did arise with the Disrupt question, but the implications are actually quite far-reaching. If you can Disrupt a guy's power, then walk away (for example) with the Disrupt still in place, then shouldn't the guy who's knocked-out on mid-Flight (another Maintenance power) get the same benefits from having his power's effects independent of his own state - & stay in the air?

The duration of Maintenance is fairly common amongst the powers. Whilst most such powers only effect their owners, the rules applied to one should apply equally to others.

I agree (naturally) with the no-stacking rule (infinite Soak does not a good game make... ::wink ).

I guess my arguments against multiple uses of Maintenance powers stem from both the way the text is written (especially the use of the term 'Maintenance'), & how I see the powers working in a game-setting sense:

With something like a Quantum Bolt the Nova focuses for a moment, generates the energy for the bolt, let's fly, & the results are up to physics to decide.

With an Immobilize (that has a pre-set Duration) the Nova focuses for a moment, creates the Immobilizing stuff (be it ice, poison, or whatever), then, again, leaves the rest up to physics (it just so happens that the created stuff naturally breaks-down after a scene).

With a Maintenance power I always presumed that the Nova focuses on the effect he wants, turns the power on, & then lets it stay on with mimimal effort. Unlike the 'fire & forget' effects of a Q-Bolt or Immobilize, I saw it more like a light switch in the character's head - it's either on or off, it can't be turned 'more on'.

For Concentration powers the Nova has the same lightswitch, but he has to keep his finger on it, or it'll automatically shut off.

So, our Instant power is a flashbulb - one pop & it's done; our set duration power is a flare - fire it off & it lasts for a set amount of time; our Maintenance power is an on / off lightswith; & our Concentration power is a pressure-sensitive lightswitch.

In this way I saw powers like Force Field or Flight being either on or off, but either way you've only got a single switch & bulb per power. I felt the same should be applied to all Maintenance duration powers, even the 'attack' style ones like Disrupt.

Is this how you guys picture the powers working? Or am I being a bit far-out here? ::confused

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(as per pages 179-180, corebook)

RE: Concentration

+2 Diff per any other actions...Presumably towards any other concentration-type powers as well...

RE: Disrupt

Can be used multiple against the same target (+1 diff per), just not in the same attack, unless you have the appropriate extra...Disrupt works differently than you may think; it reduces the effectiveness of a power, and doesn't necessarily shut it off...So Flight may be harder to do (as the the Disrupt successes would make it harder for the nova to fly), it would not be "shut off"....

Side Note: Yet another power goes to my "Needs Editing" pile...On a hard look, the ST and the Player need to sit down and decide how many powers are ultimately effected, and if a power can be affected more than once...

RE: Maintenance

Once paid for, the power remains in effect for a period of time (Q+Rating) turns, or a scene if not in a stressful situation. If going from non-stress to stress, you need to start maintaining it after (Q+Rating) turns (it's presumably already paid for for that initial time).

As far as variable powers (like non-APG optioned FF), you can start the power over (ie, new roll) by paying the maintenance cost again.

However, there is nothing said regarding stacking effects...ie, there is nothing in the rules against, say, using the same force field and creating six times on yourself; however, keep in mind the Q-cost (12 QP in this case, every Q+Rating turns...As an ST, however, I'd probably frown on it....

FR

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However, there is nothing said regarding stacking effects...ie, there is nothing in the rules against, say, using the same force field and creating six times on yourself; however, keep in mind the Q-cost (12 QP in this case, every Q+Rating turns...As an ST, however, I'd probably frown on it....

I guess that's the point - there's nothing in the rules to say either way. You can also interpret the Maintenance text as saying you can't roll again (or maintain the current level of effect) until the first use of the power has run it's course.

Are there any examples (in the books) anyone can think of either way? (If Aberrant needs one thing, it's lots more examples of the rules in use).

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It makes sense to me that the flier should fall no matter what, because it should take some concentration to fly (just to dictate direction), just a negligable amount as far as dice pool penalties go.

Right. So shouldn't that then apply to all Maintenance powers? Therefore making things like Disrupt not 'fire & forget' at all, but requiring constant (if minimal) effort on the part of the attacker to maintain?

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phoenix Posted on Jun 17 2003, 07:47 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It makes sense to me that the flier should fall no matter what, because it should take some concentration to fly (just to dictate direction), just a negligable amount as far as dice pool penalties go. 

Sorry phoenix, I can only agree with that if the flyer was using Bodymorph: Wings.

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Prof Potts:

I guess that's the point - there's nothing in the rules to say either way. You can also interpret the Maintenance text as saying you can't roll again (or maintain the current level of effect) until the first use of the power has run it's course.

Actually, the rules state explicitly that you can re-roll the current result (for the maintenance cost).

Phoenix:

It makes sense to me that the flier should fall no matter what, because it should take some concentration to fly (just to dictate direction), just a negligable amount as far as dice pool penalties go.

Qualifying this statement: I'd make this happen only if the successes had been nailed by the Disrupt (basically, as if you had rolled no successes).

Prof Potts:

Are there any examples (in the books) anyone can think of either way? (If Aberrant needs one thing, it's lots more examples of the rules in use).

Yeah, but then people would have less to be argue about ::bigsmile ....

FR

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Actually, the rules state explicitly that you can re-roll the current result (for the maintenance cost).

No, they state that implicitly, not explicitly -

"... the nova can choose to keep the same level of effect or can reroll the power upon spending additional quantum."

comes after the whole,

" 'Maintenance' indicates that the power, once activated remains in effect automatically for a period of time. Thereafter, the nova can automatically pay an additional number of quantum points to maintain the power..." thing.

The important word is "thereafter" (meaning - "after the duration is up").

If you take the wording literally, & in the order it's written, then it means that once a Maintenance power is switched on you can't pay more quantum to re-roll the result until after it's run it's normal duration. However, we presume that a nova can turn off his own powers whenever he wants to, so he could (in theory) cancel a Maintenance power prematurely in order to be able to spend more quantum points & re-roll the power. This is the way I've been running things so far - hence no multiple & simultaneous uses of Maintenance powers.

A good example (I hope) of how all these questions can effect the game is the Telekinesis power. It varies greatly depending on how you define 'Maintenance' powers as working:

A) 'Maintenance' means that the power is an on / off proposition - when 'on' the Nova is constantly powering the effect via a stream of Quantum energy through his MR node (although this is taking no more effort than it takes the average guy to, for example, stand up without falling over).

Our Nova uses her TK to lift a car in the air. She can now do other stuff, & if she does nothing else with her TK then the car stays in the air - unless she moves beyond the power's range, passes out, or is killed - for the normal Maintenance duration. She could also choose to use her (still active) TK on something else, in which case the car drops (since the TK is now being focused elsewhere). To effect more than one object at a time the Nova would need an Extra like Area or MIRV, or would need to buy the Telekinesis power more than once.

B) 'Maintenance' means that the power is 'fire & forget' - once it's activated it's effects are independent of the Nova.

Our Nova uses her TK to lift a car in the air. It now stays there, no matter what she does, or what state she's in (kill her & it still floats there) - for the normal Maintenance duration. When the duration is about to run out she can add more 'juice' to the effect (like a guy spinning plates on top of sticks, she can run back & add a little more spin to one that's about to fall). In this case, if she wants to effect anything other than the car she'll need a seperate use of her TK power - since the effect, once activated, has little to do with her.

Now, I've been going for "A", which is how I interpret the text & how I feel Maintenance powers are defined in the setting. Nullifier was expecting something closer to "B" (hence this discussion in the first place). Which do you guys feel is how you see powers working in the game (or do you have options "C", "D", & a zillion more to add)?

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B) 'Maintenance' means that the power is 'fire & forget' - once it's activated it's effects are independent of the Nova.
Meaning that if the power is disrupted then the power isn't disrupted? For TK: the car doesn't fall. For FF: soak isn't reduced? That doesn't sound right.

Some kind of minimal concentration seems appropriate. I don't mind what the rule is as long as I know what it is.

Does FF drop if the nova is Stamina stunned? - I'd say no.

Does FF drop if the nova is knocked out? - I'd say yes.

Very much on a side note, "Storm" doesn't slap a -2 diff on people, it just removes 2 dice. Against novas with megas, megas would go first. The "Cover" rules may also apply.

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Okay, so I officially hate the ST editors ::crazy ...

Point made, Prof. Potts...

Alright, are you going after a Marvel-type universe (psuedo-scientific physics, definite power definitions, and cohesive theme), or a DC-Type universe (semi-consistent physics, generalized power definitions, and theme not an issue)?

Not saying that either is necessarily wrong, but I think your answer is probably the Marvel-type...Which means, thanks to Jean Grey (whose TK has been shown to die off immediately upon unconsciousness), your answer will probably be A....

FR

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I say A but with some of what's in the example for B, for example. You lift a car (again) with TK, if you lift something else the car drops because you're redirecting the power. However if you're knocked out, the power/effort has already been put into lifting that car and should last the whole durration before falling.

I don't believe that you can spend more points to stack your successes, I think it was refferering to powers like force field, where if you weren't happy with the roll for the previous activation then you can try it again and hopefully get more successes than before.

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Right. So shouldn't that then apply to all Maintenance powers? Therefore making things like Disrupt not 'fire & forget' at all, but requiring constant (if minimal) effort on the part of the attacker to maintain?

It would, which is why I think Disrupt should be instant, lasting for a single scene on the target. I agree that it doesn't really make sense for the power to return if the disruptor is knocked out or killed.

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Now, I've been going for \"A\", which is how I interpret the text & how I feel Maintenance powers are defined in the setting. Nullifier was expecting something closer to \"B\" (hence this discussion in the first place). Which do you guys feel is how you see powers working in the game (or do you have options \"C\", \"D\", & a zillion more to add)?

Actually, I think both are valid models. Let me present perhaps another model. First, I think it's necessary to analyze the analogy you made between standing without falling and Maintaining a power. They're both automatic actions in game terms: you only have to be conscious and a desire to keep 'em going, and they'll keep going, with periodic adjustments in both cases. However, I'm not sure that the analogy goes much beyond that. Mainly, in that you only have one set of legs to stand with, while you have an M-R Node to Maintain a power. The thing is, M-R Nodes are certainly capable of maintaining and activate multiple powers simultaneously, so long as the character stays conscious, at least. It seems like it would be the case that doing so for the same power would work just as well. In the case of TK, I would say that the Nova could lift the car, have it stay there for the Maintenece, and have him be able to lift and/or other objects with his TK without the car falling, so long as he was conscious. Knock him out, Disrupt the power, or drain his QPs, and watch the juggling act end. ::crazy So sure, Disrupt isn't fire&forget, but since a node is quite capable of maintaining multiple powers, it should be possible to use it against multiple targets/powers, one after another without dropping the previous effect, provided you've got the QPs... Same goes for Disorient, btw.

::bigsmile

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Ok, the new guy will weigh in...

The thing is, M-R Nodes are certainly capable of maintaining and activate multiple powers simultaneously, so long as the character stays conscious, at least.

100% agree.

It seems like it would be the case that doing so for the same power would work just as well.

Not so sure about this, though... While it is clearly vague in the rules, hence this whole discussion, I think it is in the "spirit" of the rules that this is not the case.

1. All of the verbage in Chapter 5 "Power Descriptions" seems to imply that a power can only be used once simultaneously (poor grammar but trying to say that the nova can only have a power functioning once).

A. An instant power clearly can't be used simultaneous with itself simply by the fact that it is instant.

B. Constant and maintenance powers give very explicit rules about how to handle single instances of powers without even referring to the possibility of doubling them up (I would specifically expect to see an example using nested FF if this was possible).

C. Under the "Multiple Actions" heading it explicitly states "Some powers... have many applications. If such a power is able to be used in a multiple action, the nova may use several aspects of the power simultaneously..." In my opinion, if using a power not covered by this heading simultaneous with itself was intended to be allowed they would have included something in this heading.

2. I whole-heartedly agree that this is not the most compelling argument (using lack of rules to imply rules), but I think it fits the spirit of the game (otherwise you could have someone with density increase 1, str 1 and a lot of quantum, keep pumping until they hit str 5 meg-str5).

3. My recommendation would be to allow the mulitple uses, but only use the amount of dots you have in the power (ie. with Disrupt 5, use 2 dots on one opponent and 3 dots on another).

4. One way to get around this is a character I've been working on with Clone 1, Disrupt (Merged), and Mega-Int (taint Resist) with 5 Node. You make all of your clones (6) and have them attack opponents in groups of two with the merged disrupt. You'll burn a lot of quantum but it's worth it.

A. A rules question related to the above: If you have a eufiber suit with 5 quantum stored and Clone, does that suit and stored quantum also clone? Per the rules, all equipment is cloned.

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