Trinity RPG - Quantakinetics (might not be new for some)

[Adam]

Pulled this out of the Trinity Yahoo! group. Figured some people might like it.

The TPG only has the first dot of the 3 modes, as you've already been informed. But for the Fourth Millennium project, Deird'Re Brooks (our listmistress, who also helped come up with the Modes as they're in the TPG) helped me cobble together some ideas as to how to extend those Modes through 5 dots each. This is unofficial, but it fits what we know of QK so far, and it's how we're going to deal with it in Fourth Millennium, until and unless we're contradicted by canon.

-Lancelot

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ENERGETICS

O Energy Production: As written.

OO Energy Manipulation: Change and affect the flow or production of energy source. This can be used to make damage from attacks worse; dampen an explosion; or force a reactor to go critical. (The low range of the power makes this one not a good idea.)

OOO Energy Shield: Personal defense against energy attacks of all sorts. At higher levels it can be extended to protect others in contact with the user, or even a vehicle or an area.

OOOO Quantum Manipulation: Affect the flow or production of Quantum; drain Quantum or Taint from a target, or convert other forms of energy to Quantum.

OOOOO Psi Manipulation: Affect the flow or production of Psi energy; drain Psi from a target; convert other forms of energy -- even Quantum -- into Psi; transfer Psi from one target to another.

ENHANCEMENT

O Basic Enhancement: As written. At level 3, this boosts one Attribute by a number of dots equal to the successes on a Psi roll. At level 4, you can do it to someone else.

OO Focused Enhancement: Add 1 dot to all the Attributes in a group (Mental, Physical or Social). At level 4 this adds a number of dots equal to the successes on a Psi roll to all the Attributes in a group. At level 5 you can do it to someone else.

OOO Aegis: Fuel your body with raw Quantum to deflect damage. Add one dot to your Bashing and Lethal Soak. At level 4, add a number of dots equal to a Psi roll to your Bashing and Lethal Soak. At level 5, add your permanent Psi score to your Bashing and Lethal Soak.

OOOO Quantum Metabolism: Convert your body to run off of ambient Quantum energy, for interesting effects. Stop eating, endure hard vacuum, walk the ocean floor, get a tan on Mercury.

OOOOO Power Transfer: Transfer a number of dots equal to the successes on a Psi roll from one target's single Attribute to the same Attribute of another. The targets do not have to be willing, but they do have to be in physical contact.

TRANSMUTATION

*Note that none of these abilities work on objects with their own intrinsic Psi field, e.g., living things and most bioware.

O Molecular Scanning: As written.

OO Enthalpic Reinforcement: Reinforce the atomic bonds of an item to make it more durable and prevent breakdowns. Add 1 dot to the object's Soak; also, for the duration of the effect, ignore one botch on any die rolls the ST might impose for the item or object to break down. These effects are cumulative, if the QK wants to use it more than once on the same object. At level 4, the object is reinforced by a number of dots/levels equal to a Psi roll. At level 5 this can be used on complex systems, like a ship's jump engine, or an entire hovercar.

OOO Entropic Acceleration: Increase the rate of decay to cause something to break down. Drain 1 dot from an object's Soak; when it reaches zero, start subtracting from its structural (Wounds) level. No Soak applies. Each use of this power also adds 1 auto-failure to any applicable breakdown rolls. At level 5 this can be done at range.

OOOO Reshaping: Solid objects can flow like water or be reshaped like putty to take any shape the user desires, within the limits of the target's mass, volume and structural strength. The amount of matter affected is found on the freeform system's Mass parameter chart. No Soak applies. The object remains the same material, and depending on the extent of the transformation, may retain some or all of its original function (shaping a laser gun into a gauntlet, for example). These transformations may even add functionality --adding a working airtight door to a ship's bulkhead, for example. Depending on the complexity of the functionality added the ST may impose +1 difficulty on those rolls. At level 5 this may be done at range.

OOOOO The Philosopher's Stone: Objects may be restructured at the subatomic level, transforming from one element into another. The user can affect a number of grams of matter equal to the KG on the Mass Parameter chart. Reshaping of object is not included in this, unless the item's material is already malleable, but obviously, physical properties can be radically transformed in this manner. No Soak applies.

[VictorHFrost KSC]

welcome to the boards, hope you have an awesome time here. btw, you might want to check out what we've been doing on india underground *i swear we're nearly there!* in the way of quantakinesis. its our own little pet project over here that's been in the works for some time.

jake

[Adam]

Thanks Jake. ::biggrin

I've actually been lurking as a Guest for some time now. I came across the QK stuff while delving the Trinity group on Yahoo! and figured I should post it for you guys to play with. ::devil

I've been checking in on InUn since December, and just last week my Trinity charafter picked up his second dot in Enhancement (he's a Legionnaire, don't ask...) so I've been doing some QK research for my St. Of course I would much rather use the modes from InUn ::tongue

Thanks again for the welcome. Having said my piece, I am retreating back into the shadows again....

-Will.

[Joseph]

Welcome to EONLand, Erebus. Hope you enjoy the rides and shows we have available. (Just be careful of that Senior Mal guy and the "candy" he hands out. ::tongue )

Thanks for reminding me of the Yahoo groups again. I almost forgot about those. I must be getting senile in my old age. ::rolleyes

-Joseph

[harlequin]

actually, i really quite like those rules for QK... copy + paste ::halo

[Alistaire]

Welcome as well!

First impression: Holy Carp! That's some powerful stuff! If that is what the creators wanted, I can see why you can't have QKs as PC's (I already think that my one 'porter PC in my game is a little over-powered)! Still, I like it; well thought out, follows a logical order. Plus it fills the gap until InUn comes out in case I need a QK (NPC, of course) in my game. So as harlequin said... copy+paste. ::halo

Speaking og InUn... still can't wait! Go! Go! Go! Go! (need a cheerleader smilie) ::thumbsup

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Actually the level 5 powers don't seem all that impressive to me, as far as 5 dots go the other orders' powers are more "kick arse"... ::devil

[Alistaire]

Actually the level 5 powers don't seem all that impressive to me, as far as 5 dots go the other orders' powers are more \"kick arse\"...

Come on! ::shocked Psi Manipulation?? You can't use ANY of your powers if I suck the PSI right out of you! And Power Transfer? I don't think you need all those Intelligence points, thank you very much. Oooo, now I'm SUPER smart! Or Philosopher's Stone??? Very handy for, among other things, and economy that is back on a precious metal standard! Plus you're armor won't work very well made out of tin, or argon.

All I can say is, that the other orders must have suffered some pretty big casualties during the purge, unless they had excellent inter-order coordination, maximizing the advantages of all the different aptitudes!

IMHO of course... ::halo

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Bah these level 5's are only useful against psions, so im starting to agree with the chib purge!!! ::tongue

[Joseph]

Only against Psions? Are ya pulling my chain? ::blink

Take another look at those 5 dotters, matey. "Convert any energy, including Quantum, into Psi," "Transer attributes, even if the target is unwilling," "No soak applies."

Them's some mean powers, psion, squid, or nota. ::crazy

-Joseph

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I read them again and i'm still not that impressed, sorry to disapoint you all, maybe if you could convert all forms of energy including psi into any other form of energy then i would be impressed but having a battery/leeching power might be usefull but not all that fantastic as to throw a party and dance in joy for this power.

Transfering attributes on an oponent is a great tool, I don't deny that in a fight with an especially tough individual that shifting all his stamina into apearance and charisma would be fantastic (you have to touch him first too, if it's an aberrant then ouch!), the social aplication is great too but I don't think this should be a level 5 power despite that it's the most usefull off all.

Finally the power that seems to deserve the level of 5 but only because it can simulate to a small degree some other powers both from psions and aberrant, and because it seems like it requires a fair chunk of psi to do it, since i can't find the mass parameter chart im not sure what amount can be affected.

[Adam]

I have to agree with Ayre. The powers just aren't all that impressive, espcecially since this is supposed to be the Aptitude that finally bridges Quanta and Psi. If I were to develop QK powers, this is what the outline might look like:

ENERGETICS

O Energy Production: As written.

OO Energy Control: You can change, augment, or weaken the flow and production of an energy source. This can be used to shut down electrical systems; fry powered devices; modify the damage from an energy weapon; or even force a reactor to go critical (though the low range of the power makes that not a good idea). At level 3, this control allows you to reflexively defend against energy attacks of most sorts (not pure Quantum or Psi). At level 5 this shield can be extended to protect an area.

OOO Supersymmetry: Gravity has become your tool. Increase or decrease the gravity within the area. At level 5, you can have some objects affected by increased gravity and some by decreased gravity within the area. **Though every object exerts nominal gravity on everything around it, this power only manipulates the gravity created by massive objects (e.g. moons, planets, celestial bodies).

OOOO Quantum Manipulation: Affect the flow or production of Quantum; drain Quantum or Taint from a target; convert other forms of energy to Quantum; and even inhibit Quantum effects.

OOOOO Psi Manipulation: Affect the flow or production of Psi energy; drain Psi from a target; convert other forms of energy -- even Quantum -- into Psi; transfer Psi from one target to another; and even inhibit the Psi powers of other psions.

ENHANCEMENT

O Basic Enhancement: As written. At level 2, this boost can affect all the Attributes in a group (Mental, Physical, Social). At level 4 this adds a number of dots equal to the successes on a Psi roll to all the Attributes in a group. At level 5 you can do it to someone else.

OO Aegis: Strengthen your body with raw Quantum to resist damage. Add one dot to your Bashing and Lethal Soak. At level 3, add a number of dots equal to a Psi roll to your Bashing and Lethal Soak. At level 5, add your permanent Psi score to your Bashing and Lethal Soak.

OOO Power Transfer: Transfer one dot from a target's single Attribute to the same Attribute of another. The targets do not have to be willing, but they do have to be in physical contact. At level 5 transfer a number of dots equal to the successes on a Psi roll.

OOOO Quantum Metabolism: Modify your body to metabolize ambient Quantum energy for all of its physical functions, for interesting effects. Stop eating, endure hard vacuum, walk the ocean floor, get a tan on Mercury.

OOOOO Psi Evolution: Modify your body to exist in a purely Psi state (much like the Doyen). You are incorporeal, are no longer effected by physical forces (e.g. gravity, radiation, heat), and are completely sustained by ambient Psi. While in this form you can not spend Psi points or use powers that require the expenditure of Psi points (even if they become free for you for some reason).

TRANSMUTATION

*Note that none of these abilities work on objects with their own intrinsic Psi field, e.g., living things and most bioware.

O Molecular Scanning: As written.

OO Residual Electromagnetic Modification: Reinforce the atomic bonds of a simple item to make it more durable and increase effeciency. Add 1 dot to the object's Soak; also, add 1 die to all rolls to use this item. At level 3, this ability can also be used to weaken the residual electromagnetic bonds between atoms, causing objects to breakdown and malfunction. Reduce the items Soak by 1 dot, and all rolls to use this item are at -1 penalty. If an item ever reaches 0 soak it falls apart. At level 4, the object is reinforced by a number of dots/levels equal to a Psi roll. At level 5 this can be used on complex systems like a gun, a minicomp, or even an entire vehicle.

OOO Reshaping: Solid objects can flow like water or be reshaped like putty to take any shape the user desires, within the limits of the target's mass, volume and structural strength. The amount of matter affected is found on the freeform system's Mass parameter chart. No Soak applies. The object remains the same material, and depending on the extent of the transformation, may retain some or all of its original function (shaping a laser gun into a gauntlet, for example). These transformations may even add functionality --adding a working airtight door to a ship's bulkhead, for example. Depending on the complexity of the functionality added the ST may impose +1 difficulty on those rolls. At level 5 this may be done at range.

OOOO Alchemy: Objects may be restructured at the subatomic level, transforming from one element into another. The user can affect a number of grams of matter equal to the kg on the Mass Parameter chart. Reshaping of object is not included in this, unless the item's material is already malleable, but obviously, physical properties can be radically transformed in this manner. No soak applies.

OOOOO Annihilation: Mastery of the quantum universe allows you to turn matter into anti-matter or vice versa. Unless contained, this anti-matter annihilates with an equivalent amount of matter in an extremely energetic and ultimately radioactive reaction, so you had best have safeguards in place (e.g. Energy Control) to avoid suffering catastrophic damage. The user can convert a number of grams of matter equal to the kg on the Mass Parameter chart. No soak applies.

Comments?? ::unsure

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I'm sticking to my guns on level 5 energetics, but the other two 5's are more like what I expected of Quantakinesis, something flash an powerfull and like the other level 5's absolutely impressive. As for energetics 5 replace the word 'psi' for the word 'energy' whenever it comes up and then you have a level 5 power wothy of the 5 dot rank. ::thumbsup

[phoenix]

As for energetics 5 replace the word 'psi' for the word 'energy' whenever it comes up and then you have a level 5 power wothy of the 5 dot rank.

Affect the flow or production of energy energy? ::smile

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I knew you of all people were gonna pick me up on that, phoenix ::biggrin . Despite the gramatical error, are you going to tell me that wouldn't be a great power?

[Alistaire]

Here's a question for you: Are you looking at this from a player's perspective, or a storyteller's? I can see where one might differ than the other, and why.

For me, as a ST, I would restrict access to even Erebus' original version for my PCs! But, on the flip side, I could see some of those new ones he posted as making some nifty alternates, since the higher levels of those always seem to be quite powerful (and super secret and restricted)!

But Annihilation, really? "Don't tick us off, or our mid-level QK here will just blow away your whole COUNTRY!!!" Do have any idea how much damage 1 gram of antimatter can really do? I probably wouldn't have allowed such a power in my game, even if it were published by WW, until I had seen some of the stuff that Atwan can do. That is one scary lady. I can only imagine that Bhurano was scarier...

But really, if she and her cohorts could have just NUKED the attacking orders, I think they would have. (now I can't wait to see how InUn depicts the Purge! ::drool )

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Me? From an St's perspective... lets face it if your players are at level 5 powers then the things they're going against won't be pushovers so i say let them have the power... As for annihilation i agree that it's too powerfull but what should determine if a player should have it is the GM, since they know what they're going to be throwing at the players... what i was getting at before is that it's closer to what i would expect from a level 5 power and it has the boom factor that should make the Qk's more frightening, remember they were an experiment ::madscientist (that'd be a cool smilley ::thumbsup )

[JEstr]

Also the QK's were supposed to be the most powerful Psions....

[Adam]

As for energetics 5 replace the word 'psi' for the word 'energy' whenever it comes up and then you have a level 5 power wothy of the 5 dot rank.

I can see where that would be reasonable (since they are controlling the subquantum universe), though in Trinity most of the Orders already use Psi to control and convert energy.

Take for example Legionnaires who can convert light into heat and vice versa (Radiative Manipulation), and who can convert potential energy into kinetic energy (Sling Shot). Or Orgotek who can turn Psi into coherent light (Laser Generation) or modify photon motion up or down the EM spectrum (Wavelength Remapping).

It would only be a two step process to convert energy into Psi then back into pretty much any other type of energy, assuming they have the Mode for it. Unfortunetly, in the game world that is not going to happen because the Doyen are tricksy. Well, that's my rationale atleast.

As for Annihilation... in reality matter/antimatter reactions of a few grams are not going to level a country (or even city for that matter). In real reactions, more then HALF the energy is carried away from the reaction in the form of fast moving neutrinos that are harmless to people. (As an interesting fact, it would take a block of lead a light year thick to stop a netrino emitted from the sun! That is how infrequently they interact with other particles.)

Also, almost instantaneously most of the gluons freed from annihilation reactions reform into unstable compounds, which then decay. The energy from the reaction itself would probably only decimate a few city blocks (much weaker then many Aberrent quanta powers).

,,

The math actually works out to about a 5x10^11 kJ explosion (after the 55% energy loss due to neutrinos) assuming 12 grams annihilate (6 grams of anti-matter with 6 grams of matter). To put that number is perspective: a 100 kiloton nuclear blast has about 4x10^11 kJ in it. www.atomicarchive.com estimates that a bomb of this size would probably level a 1 mile radius of city, with thermal and pressure effects extending as far as 3 miles (roughly). It is the radiation contamination that you would most need to worry about.

Granted that is incredibly destructive and incredibly flashy (compared to all the other Orders), and it is also pretty much suicide on the part of the Chib (unless he has another QK mode at 5, then maybe the ST might let him activate one of those to survive... maybe).

The better, and more reasonable, use of this power would be in very small quantities within magnetic containment fields for the purpose of creating clean, free energy. One Chib, working carefully, could probably power a country. Now what is REALLY nasty is that a powerful QK could turn all that energy into pure Psi or Quanta. Imagine what all the Orders could do with that kind of Psi production.

Anyway, that is just my take on how limited control of the sub-quantum universe could work.

-Will.

[Alistaire]

Ok, I won't dispute your science on this, mainly because this is just a game and we could blow all sorts of holes in it if we did, and I'm lazy (but the scientist in me is lookin' for a fight!). ::crazy

Still, I think that Annialation is too powerful, and ultimately useless to players. I recently came up with a better idea based on my next comment:

First of all, aren't the QKs supposed to be manipulating the quantum universe, not the sub-quantum? This means, as they say, weak, strong, gravity, and electromagnatism. Not psi. They use psi, like all psions use it, to manipulate their area of expertise, but do not manipulate it itself. Thus, if this is true, I would (sadly) say that Psi Manipulation is out. Secondly, how's this for a new power: instead of annialation, how about Disintegration? Simply weakening the "weak" force would cause your molecules to fly apart, just like phasers in Star Trek. Simple, fits the area, and much more useful to players than mile/city/country-wide explosion plus radiation, firestorms, and fallout. Still wicked powerful, though. Maybe number of kg as per chart mentioned earlier?

Just brainstorming here. I'm sure whatever InUn has in it will do just fine. ::tongue

[Guest]

Hello all!!!

I'm back! (I've been having trouble logging in so I've had to create a new and improved persona...bwah, ha, ha!!!)

On the subject of Quantakinesis, I would like to point out that my freeform QK article has been on EON for over a year now, and would only take a minimum of effort to convert from freeform to standard rules (I based most of the powers and techniques on Abberant powers anyway).

As a related issue, although I like the idea of being able to manipulate psi energy to the point of being able to interfere or enhance other psion's powers, that is not how QK actually works. The point is that QKs use psi to manipulate quantum energy indirectly, thats why there powers are not in the same league as the abbies, that is how they affect the world with their powers. Manipulating purely psi doesn't fall into the same catagory, its Quantakinetics NOT Subquantakinesis!

OK, rant over

Jackson Creed 2.0

::devil

[Telgar]

Not really relevant to Quantakinesis, but I've designed a Psikinesis Aptitude that is all about controling Psi. It still needs work, but I'm gunna post it later today.

I've also done enough of a conversion from the Freeform QK rules to allow it in games as an Aux Mode and it *really* is simple. I hope India Underground comes out soon or else I might have to get off my lazy butt and convert the whole thing.

I object to the anti-matter power not because its too strong or not handy (i disagree with both), but because I don't see how it fits. How does manipulating gravity, electromagnetism, strong or weak forces allow you to convert matter into anti-matter? I'm not too strong on nuclear science, still taking chemistry, but I don't see the connection.

[Alistaire]

I object to the anti-matter power not because its too strong or not handy (i disagree with both), but because I don't see how it fits. How does manipulating gravity, electromagnetism, strong or weak forces allow you to convert matter into anti-matter?

Hmm... Good point. You'd have to change things like charge and spin, properties which I don't think have any relationship to the four forces.

Errg, I can almost smell a new aptitude coming... but what is it? And how would it be useful? Aside from creating antimatter? {dives into old physics books} ::lookaround

[Adam]

How does manipulating gravity, electromagnetism, strong or weak forces allow you to convert matter into anti-matter? I'm not too strong on nuclear science, still taking chemistry, but I don't see the connection.

...

To answer your question Telgar, matter can be changed to anti-matter (which look and behave exactly like their corresponding matter particles, except they have opposite charges) by two different methods involving manipulation of Strong and Weak forces.

When a fundamental particle decays, it changes into a less massive particle and a force-carrier particle (always a W boson for fundamental particle decays, which is the force-carrier for Weak forces). These force carriers may then re-emerge as other particles. So, a particle does not just change into another particle type; there is an intermediate force-carrier particle which mediates particle decays.

These force-carrier particles can be massive, and thus seem to violate the conservation of energy, but Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle explains that they are actually so short lived as to be "virtual particles", thus they don't violate the laws of physics.

Anyway, these force-carrier partcicles re-form into a matter/anti-matter particle pair (like a electron and positron along with their corresponding neutrinos). usually these type of force carriers only occur from very, very energetic reactions (like particles striking each other in a linear accelerator), but since quantakinetics use psi to manipulate quantum forces (gravity, electromagnetic, strong forces and weak forces) then it is logical to assume that psi (being the "true" fundamental particle) can produce and direct the necessary force-carrier particles to decay into an anti-matter particle.

The second method (and much simpler in my opinion), is the manipulating of gluons (the force-carrier particle for Strong forces) within a hadrons (group of quarks) "color-force field". The quark is the fundamental particle that makes up protons and neutrons. One proton is comprised of 2 up quarks and a down quark for a total net charge of +1, while a neutron is comprised of 2 down quarks and an up quark for a total chage of 0 (up quarks have a 2/3 charge and down quarks have a -1/3 charge).

Each quark also has a anti-quark conterpart. Interestingly enough, quarks do not annihilate with their anti-quark conterparts, but for example, if 2 anti-up quarks and an anti-down quark bind then we have an anti-proton which will annihilate with a normal proton. I guess quarks only like to fight in groups. ::sly

Anyway, Standard Model says that quarks constantly exchange color charges (which is just a convenient naming convention for a previously never before seen quality, and has nothing to do with actual color) as gluons move between them. These gluons contain the charge information of all 12 types of quarks (normal and anti-quarks), and travel in paired particles of color/anti-color charges.

Because the charges are paired, and normal quarks already have a normal color charge, the gluon will never cause them to turn into a anti-quark because of conservation of energy. However, if someone is talented enough to be able to manipulate Strong forces (which basically means gluons, since that is the Strong force force-carrier particle), then it follows logically that they can change the color charge of a gluon such that the paired particle would be a anti-color/anti-color pair and would consequently change the affected quark into an anti-quark.

See my explanation 3 paragraphs up about what that could do.

I hope that explains how anti-matter is actually the result of quantum forces at work within particles. ::blink

-Will.

[Telgar]

*watches that fly right over his head* Uh, yeah. Ok.

I still don't think it really fits the theme, but I guess it technically does.

[Alistaire]

And today's lesson folks, is that if you're going to become a QK, you'd better get your M.Sc. first!

Very impressive, Erebus! There were a couple of things about quarks in there I didn't know (like not annialating each other). Just goes to show, though, that good sci-fi needs a good tech consultant or two to see if something is feasible (or at least fakable) because sooner or later those geeks will tear you apart. ::biggrin

ps I don't consider that an insult, BTW

[Adam]

Hehe, thanks Alistaire. For as much silly techno-babble as I spout, I think I am kind of tame compared to the good people at the Mad Sci Network. Those people are really cool!

In Trinity, though, I do believe that Psi should be matched with a skill then rolled (at +1 difficulty). So a Doc will do a better job healing someone if he actually knows some medicine, and a EK will fire a laser better if they know how to use firearms... oh wait, that power is normally paired with that skill- genious!

So your comment about a Chib needing a high science skill would be true.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment (I think). ::blush

-Will.

[JEstr]

(read with Valley Girl accent)

So you could be like this waitress right and like this customer totally pisses you off...but you like are "Whatever", but he keeps like messing with you and says like "Biatch my toast is burnt" an you could be like "Ok, this loser is goin down gfriend". So you like bring him some new toast and you be liek "Hey man, liek here's you toast douche bag!!" He'd be like "Thanks alot Minimum Wage Slave" then you'd be liek "I hope you liek your toast....you're antimatter toast!!" and laugh maniacly as his head just totally explodes!!!

[JEstr]

I.....I'm so sorry, I don't know what happend to me....I couldn't stop!! Drat those pesky telepaths!!!!

[Adam]

I.....I'm so sorry, I don't know what happend to me....I couldn't stop!!  Drat those pesky telepaths!!!!

Don't even get me started on the ludicrousness of someone using natures true, fundamental particle to read noetic waves emanating from a person's brain, and they CAN'T defend against that unless they have Psychbending 3?!?

What exactly does subverting conscious thought/control have to do with creating noetic brain static?!

Sigh... some storytellers... I tell you...

Hehe... anti-matter toast... sigh...

-Will.

[JEstr]

As your Storyteller I say NUTS!!! You will realize the superiority of Telepaths or I will destroy your little paper man!!! I'm the God, me, I'm the GOD!!!!

[Adam]

Sigh...

I think my little paper man needs a new god...

Anyone out there know any good ones?

[Alistaire]

Hehe... anti-matter toast... sigh...

Ah, reminds of my (brief) days in Sea Cadets; my company called itself Atomic Toast. I guess maybe that's the precursor to anit-matter toast?

For as much silly techno-babble as I spout, I think I am kind of tame compared to the good people at the Mad Sci Network. Those people are really cool!

I've been looking at the site briefly; it looks like fun! Although they weren't able to answer one of my long standing mysteries to my satisfaction, though. ::cry I won't mention what that is here because we are seriously getting off topic. ::blush

I think my little paper man needs a new god...

Anyone out there know any good ones?

I'm a pagan; I know several. ::smile

[phoenix]

You know, if my knowledge of physics encompassed any real knowledge other than the fact that "quark" is a real word ( ::blush ), I don't think I would be able to put up with the Aeon continuum - a lot of the science in it seems pretty shaky to me.

Although they weren't able to answer one of my long standing mysteries to my satisfaction, though.  I won't mention what that is here because we are seriously getting off topic. 

Oh, come on. Since when is topic drift a bad thing? ::notify

-Phoenix

Dyslexic man sells soul to Santa: film at eleven.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Oh, come on. Since when is topic drift a bad thing?

Please refer to Aberrant general discussion thread 'who are the good guys?' now that's a really bad situation!

[Alistaire]

Oh, come on. Since when is topic drift a bad thing?

Hmm... I guess I may confuse the rules on different boards sometimes. Either way though, you asked for it!

My question, which, while it has been answered, has not been answered to my satisfaction (and I can explain why), it this: Is gravity a violation of the law of conservation of energy?

To explain a little more, this law states that energy is neither created nor destroyed, only transformed. Sometimes it comes from energy stored in chemical or nuclear bonds, or in small amounts of matter actually turning into energy (like matter-anti-matter reactions). Most events on Earth can have their energy traced back somewhere. E.g., your muscles use energy gained from food plants and animals, which get energy from other plants and animals, and that ultimately comes from the Sun. The Sun gets its energy from nuclear reactions and will run out due to the matter being transformed into elements that cannot be fused (fusion).

However, gravity is a never-ending supply of energy, isn't it? It will always cause things to fall, as well as counteract any attempts to prevent or reverse this. Gravity provides kinetic energy to objects in its vicinity. My question is: where does this energy come from? Matter causes it, yes, but the matter is not transformed (like the Sun) in the process. It will never "run out."

Thus I see only two possibilities:

1) I'm wrong, and gravitic energy does transform its host matter in some way I am not familiar with, or

2) Gravity violates the law of conservation of energy by "creating" energy from nothing, invalidating the law.

There is a third possibility, I suppose, that would be that the energy is "syphoned" from other parts of the universe by processes we have yet to understand, i.e. micro-black and white hole pairs making quantum tunnels and allowing access to seemingly "free energy". Of course, to confirm this, there would have to be energy getting "sucked" out from somewhere else, something we have yet to observe. Or is this what happens to matter inside cosmic black holes?

I've asked Scientific American this question "on Ask the Experts" and they have yet to even propose and answer. These guys at the Mad Sci Network at least have tried, but failed. This makes me think that either the answer is so complicated that it cannot be explained to laymen, or no one simply knows. ::unsure ::whatsthat ::alien

So there you have it. Do with it what you will. ::teleport

[phoenix]

You're over-complicating it. The energy that gravity provides is potential energy, and it is limited - eventually, everything stops falling when it hits the matter that it's attracted to. You can only get gravity to exert more force on that object by exerting force to lift it away from the pull, which is comparable to charging a rubber band with potential energy by stretching it.

It's hard to explain, but basically, the energy is not created out of nothing - it always existed as potential energy in the form of simple distance between matter.

[Alistaire]

Yeah, that's the response I usually get, but I don't buy it. I'm not over-complicating it, I'm looking at the essential elements rather than abstract models of behaviour. "Potential" energy isn't energy at all, but an abstraction that makes some calculations more convenient, which is why so many people are familiar with it. I'm not saying that it is not handy, but it is simply not what is really going on. Much in the same manner that we like to think of electrons revolving around a nucleus in an "orbit" much like a planet, this is simply not the case. It's just easier to think of it that way because an electron's true behaviour can only be decribed mathamatically.

When something hits the ground, gravity does not stop having an influence on it, energy is continuing to push the item into the ground, much like you "pushing" on a wall, it may not move, but you are putting energy into it. This energy of course goes elsewhere other than kinetic motion (heat, friction, molecular tension, whatever) but it is still being supplied. It is for this reason we have air and water pressure. The energy does not come from the air itself, but rather from gravity pulling it down.

So, while something may stop falling, gravity itself still supplies a never-ending amount of energy to everything. Where does that come from? ::confused

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Ok, if the standard example isn't enough then try looking at it like a type of radiadtion (it's not, but anyway) emitted by all mass, so the greater the mass the greater the field of radiation, sort of like everything has an electric field; what's causing it "ATOMS!" ::laugh

[phoenix]

Well, the classic explanation suits me fine, though I agree that potential energy, when thought about for long enough, is a pretty staggering concept.

the greater the mass the greater the field of radiation, sort of like everything has an electric field; what's causing it \"ATOMS!\"

Oh those pesky atoms ::biggrin

But okay, that explanation makes no sense to me.

I don't think it counts as energy unless it involves movement of some sort. Potential energy does involve movement when it turns to kinetic. So if we accept that as our definition of energy (and I'm sure that there's more to it than that - anyone with knowledge about science, please enlighten us laymen) various forms of pressure aren't energy because they are cancelled out. The point is that once all these forces find a happy medium, which there always is, they stay there until some other force takes effect.