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Trinity RPG - Why bother?


Asbjørn

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When I first read the Trinity core rulebook, I thought: "Wow! This world is so cool! But what the hell are all these kickass psychics doing there?"

I still think that the setting is very playable and relatively believable, but why bother with the psions? Do gamers outside my social sphere have to play superheroes in every game they play? Trinity offers a possibility to play almost any imaginable genre of science fiction. It's a gateway to a million stories in a hundred different settings, so why limit yourself to playing the brainwashed elite when there are so many other real people to focus on?

Where's the challenge in playing an Æsculapian at work in the shatter? Imagine the problems and difficulties a normal human would have in the same job. Why only play the sunny side of an elitist society? There's no way humanity can cope with these chosen, better-than-you übermenschen without conflicts arising, no matter how good Aeon spindoctors are.

I'm not saying Trinity would be better if you threw out the psions. I'm saying that idolization of the gifted should be toned down, and that focusing on playing the unprivileged class is much more interesting.

I just don't get why a setting with the potential for so many good human stories insists on focusing on the superhuman.

Can you guys explain that to me? What's so cool about playing psions? Honestly.

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The appeal of playing a psion/abberant/inspired is that it gives people who have pretty boring or uninfluential lives a chance to make a major difference in a fictional world. While I agree that playing as a non psion is interesting, the dynamics of playing as a superhuman in general are more interesting. This is because of the scope of the influence ones character has is magnified by adding superpowers.

The important thing though is the actions that the people take. A psion with uber powers and a cool space ship that wakes up every morning, goes to a boring job for eight hours, rents  a movie and plops on the couch before going to bed is no more interesting than if a normal person does it.

Dr. Arbitrary

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Quite honestly - being a psion is generally an excuse for having a cool job ;)  Psions are acknowledged as having great potential and are thus given the opportunity to do more.  There are plenty of pure human stories out there.  Actually - I recommend playing all neutrals in your first game at least.

There is less to worry about and you do get the human feel of the setting.  On the other hand - once you're a kickass psion you also get the hubris part of the setting - which is also quite nize.

-knave

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Having played both neuts and psions along with a smattering of "other" I see no problem with either.  I think what it boils down to is what the players and group want to do.

I think most people play RPGs for one of two reasons, either to bring some character they've had in mind to life, or to have fun pretending to be something other than themselves.  At least in the last case a person with special powers is more likely to be something other than who the player is in real life.

Great games can be played with both neuts and "elite" as you call them.  It all a matter of the game you are playing.

-Slag

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i'm with the above on all points but have a few of my own as well.  the psions aren't universally loved or even admired, and any decent trinity st will put that aspect to good use at some point.  fact is, in the world of aeon there are entire nations with intense loathing of psions in general.  on why people want to play heros in games, well, every now and again...why the hell not? you could play characters that work in account processing for some metacorp in the fsa, but that would most often amount to people getting up, going to work, comming home, going to bed, and repeating.  anyone can do that, nothing new, why pretend when i can have a real life thats just like it? one of the key words in the phrase science fiction is fiction.  sure, thats not all there is, and yeah, its great to play the average joe on occasion (done it a few times myself, got no qualms with the idea, found it to be quite rewarding) but the psion is just a little flavor that makes things slightly more interesting.  you aren't just a guy anymore(or girl, whichever) you're now a guy with psionic abilities.  presumably you have some set of morals and values that will dictate how you would use such abilities but thats something no one has real time experience with. so we pretend and try to work it out as if we did.  its fun, thats why people do it.  asking why psions is like asking why sci fi at all.  cause somebody somewhere thought it would be entertaining and others agreed. thats the best reason there is.

jake

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Points well taken people, but I want to clarify a thing. When I said 'normal' people, I don't mean 'boring' people. As far as I can understand, most of the orders and Aeon have an equal opportunities policy. The only cases where a psion would be allowed in front of the line for a job, is when the job requires psionic abilities, and normals just won't be good enough. That will of course lead to mutterings about special treatment, but that just adds to the setting. My point is: Neutral humans can occupy the same positions as psions in most cases, it would just be more difficult. Which means a greater challenge for the players.

Lots of RPGs have some element of magic in them. 'Magic' in this case means anything we would regard as supernatural or unexplainable in our own day and age. Fantasy rpgs have it by definition, CoC has demons and unspeakable evils, WoD has all kinds of supernatural s h i t running around, and all sci-fi games have it. I agree that that element is essential to the escapist aspect of roleplaying. My problem with psychic powers in scifi (which isn't a big one, even if it might sound like it here), is that it's on top of the other magic. Spaceflight, supercomputers, maglevs and biotech are magical in themselves, but that feeling gets lost somewhere between the orders.

I know, I could just play a different game. But I won't. I just want to rant a bit. Cause I really like the setting, and I will ST it, with my own twist. I just wish they'd made it easier to play something else than a psion. The better the game developers' do their job, the less I have to do as a storyteller.

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i get what you're saying, but i don't agree w/ you. I've seen a couple of neuts played and i've heard the stories of at least one more (that belonged to slag) that was an all around bad ass....it's just as easy to play a neut i think.

yeah, giving people powers to compliment their abilities can make some things easier, but at the same time it takes energy and points away from their natural abilities. it seems an even trade to me.

beyond that, i can't see the technology as magic as you put it (and yes i understood that) it's part of the setting. it'd be like trying to play fantasy w/out the odd creatures, or vampire in space......it's part of playing a futuristic setting, otherwise, what's the point in playing scifi w/o that kind of stuff...it's no longer trinity then...

...just my take on it...but like you said it's your choice on what you like or not in the game.

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i'm confused how having psions makes playing neuts harder in the games. i've yet to see an instance where a neut can't make just as decent a character (even stat wise) as a psion. there's a difference sure, but i've seen just enough badass neut characters that we have one in almost every game these days (come to think of it, outside of my first trinity game, all of them have had at least one). if anything i find that psions get the short end of the stick. depending on locale and circumstance they can't even legally use their abilities. past that anti psion sentiment runs rampant throughout many of the nations and the public in general. after huang marr there's gotta be an upsurge in anti psion mentality.  the developers did their job and then some on these books, if you can't find ways to make normal people take center stage you haven't read enough of the material.

and tiff, yeah, xavier is a total badass, mayhaps you'll get to see slag play him if we start that game next semester (hopefully)

jake

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Statwise, psions and neutrals can't be compared if you follow standard guidelines for character creation. That's one of the effects of the prometheus chambers. But that's not the point. Being a badass or not doesn't enter into it, that just depends on the game you are playing.

Finding ways to let neutrals take center stage is a piece of cake, but not because the developers have had that in mind. It would be nice if they'd written more on playing a neutral human than a half-page textbox. But then again, that's white wolf.

Aninemity: That's exactly my point. There's no point in playing scifi without the technology. That's the magic of it, what makes people want to experience the setting and makes it appeal as an escape from our everyday lives. Good scifi doesn't need more than that. In trinity, psions are an added, different kind of 'magic', that I feel get too much of a focus.

By the way, vampire in space is kinda fun...   ;)

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you haven't read anything but the main book have you?

no disrespect but you are completely neglecting the entire SECTION on neuts in the players guide and ALL the sections on neut activities in the spats and order/region books. the stats do compare, and i can prove it. allowing merits flaws and the added freebies the humans and psions come right around the same power level. the developers DID have it in mind, you DIDN't read the full extent of the material. if you don't have access to it its one thing, i can understand that, but the material is there, it does exist, neuts were given ample room and characterization to be viable players in trinity. and the psion thing, of course they get focus, the whole running theme in the trinity universe (from aeon to adventure) is extreme individual power beyond the norm and how it is dealt with by the people that hold it and the people around them. the reason psions are in trinity is because they are as much a thematic element as a system one. if all you need was sci fi tech for your magic why not play any of half a million other games out there from star trek to battle tech?

jake

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okay, what i was getting at is that technology isn't a form of magic, even in the sense you're using it...it's simply the setting. no, there doesn't have to be that special something, but it makes it nice.

jake's right though...there's a lot of info in the other books and starting level characters psions and neutrals are comparable.

I agree w/ knave too...it's making it more personal..

::thumbs-up

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No, I haven't read the player's guide. But unless they've changed the system from the main book to the PG, I don't think they balance the two character types enough. I'm not gonna go into numbercrunching on this on, though. Like I said, that's not the point. And I already told you why I don't play some other game: It's because I like trinity.

Aninemity: It sounds like my definition of 'magic' wasn't clear enough. 'Magic' is what makes you want to play, what makes the game stand apart from our own life and gives you a sense of wonder. If you're saying biotech in trinity isn't magical (by my definition), you're saying you wouldn't react to seeing a living machine plant trees in the city park or clean up the streets today.

Knave: Good point. My personal experience with force in starwars is way too powerful goodygoody characters, but I see exactly what you mean. It raises certain questions about morality and responsibility.

And Jake: What do you mean 'all the sections on neut activities'? Are you talking about the general setting descriptions, or occasional comments on neutral characters, or something else entirely? Keep in mind that I haven't read everything WW has published, but if you could give me an example from Trinity, AuAu, SE or the tech manual, I'd be happy.

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Absjorn, obviously, you're not understanding what being said. i understood what you mean. but as per your example of the tree planting machine, _today_ it would be odd, but in a futuristic setting it wouldn't.... those are things that _define_ the setting, not necessarily add to it...

also, how can you say that what the PG has to say about neuts (as well as other books) is irrelevant when you've never even seen it?? that's just not even fair. no, it doesn't chane the system, but it compliments and adds info to it...one of the things i've learned from trinity is that you _can't_ rely on just the main book and think you've got _all_ the information.

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you _can't_ rely on just the main book and think you've got _all_ the information

Sounds like a marketing ploy!  :D

Anyway's it's all been said by the time I got here... The reason that me, personally, would want to play a Psion over a neut? My boyfriend has this PSX game 'Psychic Force'...

:D

Chloe.

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Absjorn, obviously, you're not understanding what being said. i understood what you mean. but as per your example of the tree planting machine, _today_ it would be odd, but in a futuristic setting it wouldn't.... those are things that _define_ the setting, not necessarily add to it...
We obviously both misunderstand each other or disagree on this. If you read my first post about 'magic' one more time, I hope you understand that that is exactly what I mean. Wether it defines the setting or adds to it, these elements make the gamesetting more 'magical' than our own everyday life.
also, how can you say that what the PG has to say about neuts (as well as other books) is irrelevant when you've never even seen it?? that's just not even fair. no, it doesn't chane the system, but it compliments and adds info to it...one of the things i've learned from trinity is that you _can't_ rely on just the main book and think you've got _all_ the information.
I've never said that. I have accused WW of being too one-sided in their presentation of possible player characters. Maybe I'll change my mind someday, possibly after reading the PG, but I doubt it. As for changing/adding to the system: If the PG adds to the setting, describing more options for players, then great! I'll have to read that. But if that book really puts neutrals equal to psions, they would have had to change the system. The technical side of it is clear: Psions are better/stronger/more skilled/have better stats than neutrals. On the other hand, of course it is possible for an individual neutral to be more powerful and badass(from a certain perspective).

And no, of course you can't assume all info is in one book. Why would they make more books if it was? But it shoulde be safe to assume that the main book contained enough info. And in my opinion, there should be more on neutrals.

Am I making myself clear now? Please?

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Am I making myself clear now? Please?

okay...i understood what you said from the begining...said that before...

and to put it quite bluntly, you're wrong. Psions are not naturally better at *everything* i think that point has been made already...a few times...

...either way, i'm tired of beating a dead horse. i'm done w/ this i think....

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The point of the game to me is playing a psion, as is playing a werewolf in Werewolf, and a vampire in Vampire, but WW recognizes that not everyone plays the main focus of the game and some like the challenge of playing at a slight (or not quite so slight) disadvantage.

There are three basic things to keep in mind:

Looking at just the main rules, neutrals don't have psi powers, hence their only disadvantage.  If you want to make the difference, give them more bonus points.  That and technology should fill the gap.  Our group lost interest because the rules were so "restrictive" in the basic book.  Usually within the first few turns of combat everyone (except me) ran out of psi points to throw around.  They quickly became equal with neutrals, while I reserved my powers for more dire situations (and therefore ended up saving their fat from the fire).  I was playing an EK.

Moving on next to the setting.  Aberrants far outstrip psions in powers.  It took whole armies to take down some of the most powerful during the Aberrant War.  They've grown in power since they left, and now they're back.  Without psions Earth doesn't really have a hope in hell.  Even then some aberrants have powers than can destroy whole armies of psions.  The main book doesn't state it, but psions aren't all that proliferant.

Lastly, if you don't like it throw it out.  If you want it, add it in.

corbain

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As far as game balance goes with starting Psion and starting neut.  If it came down to a spur of the moment fight - its probably only about 55 to 45 (if that) in favour of a Combat Psion (Legionnaire, Orgotek Ops, Norca or ISRAN) - provided the neut has a decent weapon.  Give the Neut a Coil Carbine and make the Psion unarmed and they're even.  Give the Neut bioweave and the Neut is winning.

At the upper end of the spectrum, Psions are a lot more powerful.  A combat Psion can take down maybe six to ten Average Neuts in a spur of the moment fight.  A good neut can do the same with enough coil carbines, underslung grenade launchers and combat armour - better if they use code indigos.

But really - most psions will be on the low end of the scale.  I also think psions will only have a very slight edge over nihonjin superiors.

-knave

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the players guide does alter system, flat out. neutrals (not latenets) get a total of 27 skills, and 21 freebies. they start with 2 lower willpower and one psi maximum along with a 2 attribute loss and they get equal backgrounds. the stats are comprable. there are also nine pages of info on nothing but playing neuts and latents in game, everything from game balance to character suggestions. this is all right before they go into stuff like the un and other organizations. past that, unless its in and order there is no proffession in trinity that cannot be done by a human. not a single one. even within the legions they have positions for "normal" people. and yes, i'm referring to the mountains of information on different organizations outside the orders, organizations that are human run, human maintained and human founded. you know, like the aeon trinity. i view that as characterization on both halves of the coin. the psi orders are big, yeah, fine, you got us all there, but by no means does that make them the only playable viable options in the game. the developers gave us so much data that an all psion group is nearly uncalled for in most games. half the orders don't get along with eachother well in the field and the natural number of psions isn't all that staggering in light of the billions of normal humans. ok, you might be correct that the main book needed more on humans, system wise. i'll give you that one, the system end is pretty shallow, however, the nature, backgrounds, origins, allegiances, etc etc are all multipurpose. just cause they didn't wave a flag saying at every junction *you can play neuts too* doesn't mean they didn't give the info. if you reread that book and actually look for the parts pertaining to psions and psions alone you'll find they are absurdly small sections as well. like the powers section, and a few of the order allegiance descriptions, thats about all i can recall offhand. oh and i suppose one or two of the bioware devices, though humans can use those too (and a lot more of them if you use zero tolerance like i tend to). maybe i'm just still confused somehow. there does exist system, there does exist normal human oraganizations that wield as much power as the orders, and there's pages and pages on just what kinds of humans exist in the world all over, even in the dramatis personae and character templates. am i missing something obvious here? i see a book that allows you to play psions, but has no bones against you playing neuts either. mayhaps its just a problem with my understanding, after this can you tell me what they've left out that you're wanting?

jake

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the players guide does alter system, flat out. neutrals (not latenets) get a total of 27 skills, and 21 freebies. they start with 2 lower willpower and one psi maximum along with a 2 attribute loss and they get equal backgrounds. the stats are comprable.
Agreed. With those changes, they're as equal as they get.
i see a book that allows you to play psions, but has no bones against you playing neuts either.
I see a book that expects you to play psions, and doesn't help in fleshing out play options for neutrals. I agree that they don't make it impossible or even difficult to play something else than a psion, but they don't help either...

The thing I miss is a setting description that sees both sides of the (possible) conflict. Yes, there are individuals, organizations and even nations out there that don't like psions, but in all the material I've read I get the impression of a 'them' and 'us' division. Psions are mostly good (except for a few rotten apples), and neutrals just don't understand us. Black and white, and always seen from an Aeon/psion perspective. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a powerful, worldwide organization like Aeon actually being a force for good for once. That's rare in RPGs. I'd just wish the book showed us clearer what the world looks like to normal people.

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considering nearly 90% of the news clippings, field reports, alien status news, media coverage, organization propaganda, world info and most everything else that's in character written is written by "normal" people, i respectfully disagree. the game may expect you to play psions, but then thats because they also expect people to have the most fun that way. i don't think they make this expectation at the handicap of neuts. and the slant, it isn't there in any sense but an in character one after the main book. in the core yes, it has that *feel*. thats because its a corebook and gives you the absolute basics (in this case things like assuming that ww fans will go for the characters with powers first like marketing told the developers they would). every book after that complicates the issue further. every order has a questionable underbelly, as does aeon and just about everything else. its a human setting. the idea not being about powers so much as actual human interaction on various levels. honestly, the them vs us division is i believe a product of this. think about it, if you had special abilities along with about 20000 others and you guys were the only ones in the world who had them and were expected by everyone else to protect serve and better them, wouldn't you adopt an us vs them attitude? it seems like an appropriate portrayal of human falacy don't you think? i see where you're comming from now i think. but the further you dig the less and less it actually holds true as a flaw in the game or the games writing and more seems to be a vantage point issue. i think the discrepency might be in a lack of supplemental material or simply overlooking what is there. if so thats totally understandable. if not, then i'm still lost as to what i am missing in the arguement.

jake

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Bottom line Asbjorn, you should really find the Trinity Player's Guide and read it. It's probably the best addition to any game in a long time. With the high expectations this gave me I was a little disappointed in the Aberrant PG. But I digress, the book is full of world info, advantages to playing neuts (which isn't about giving the player advanced technology, that's just artificial compensation...psions can have guns just as much and maybe evem more so than neuts.) The psi-freeform rules are in this book...actually I kinda miss my books now...back home in a month!

Really, the trinity PG is THAT good. It's the only book I'd absolutely recommend buying, the other books are fluff for unimaginative st's (like myself...)

On a technical note, I remember reading somewhere that the developers included the Psi-Orders (maybe I read this in the PG?) in only because WW's "trademark" is to have Clans, Tribes, Orders, etc. If it wasn't for this, the line between psi's and neuts would probably be more blurred, like in "Rifts" (a great game, if only it wasnt for the so-so system...)

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Looks like we understand eachother now, Jake. I completely agree that the general psion attitude towards the rest of the world is very natural human behaviour. The whole 'with great power comes great responsibility' thing and the set of moral/egoistic questions it raises is what makes psions interesting from my point of view. My point really boils down to that I'd like to see that explored from both sides. Maybe that's done in the PG. I'll find out on monday when I buy the book ;) .

And yes, it really is largely the 'feel' of it that gets to me...

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And if anyone has been searching in vain for a long time, just drop me a line. There were two more in the store...

Oh! Line! Line! Oh! Oh! Me! Me!  :)

If there are still some left could I get one? I've been unable to get one for ages! I really want more Trinity books! There are none here... Just tell me how much!

Feel free to use my email,

chloe_irnes@yahoo.co.uk

Chloe.

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Hey it's the new guy again. On the psion and normal discussion Trinity is one of the few WW games that some one with out powers can readily take down someone with powers. Also everyone and I repeat everyone is human (unless you're playing a alien). This is almost like saying blacks are better at sports, asians are smarter, whites have the power and hebrews have the money. Being a psion has it's drawbacks. Backlash for example or one of the things I plan on doing which the core book states is that psions are more sensitive to EVERY thing. One of the reasons the Ministry agents are so aloof is for them to create personal ties hurts. Imagine being able to feel peoples strong emotions and not always being able to block them out. How would you deal with that? Knowing that your lover or friend is lying to you. Is there a reason, should I ask?  And these would be the people close to you. Walking down a crowded street can be hell. There is your drawback and the humanity. This is basicly like the difference between non-commissioned officers and commissioned officers if you've been in the military or know people in the military.  I don't have as many books as most so I'm slowly collecting them so I can't comment on the Trinity PG, but I was planning on giving nuets a few more points to play with not unlike what was commented earlier. The trade off is, at what cost do these new powers come? Obviously this is all up to the ST discretion but I'm trying not to limit my player scope or imagination. As long as I can create a storyline or plot or metaplot around it then great. Well that being said, Bye!

" Ow... that hurt my rumpshaker" he he he

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  • 2 weeks later...
This is almost like saying blacks are better at sports, asians are smarter, whites have the power and hebrews have the money.

I think that, for better or for worse, the difference between psions and neuts is a little more extreme than Earthly racial distinctions. Mostly, though, I agree with you.

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