Aberrant: Infinite Earth - Infinite Earth OOC: General Discussion

[SkyLion]

Profanity is not necessary, for starters. Really there is just no need.

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Second, it really shouldn't hurt to ask. You say it is no fix, but to me it seems like it could be a house rule, Just because in your mind it seems preposterous, doesn't mean that I automatically have the same perception. In other words, having no idea that merely proposing an idea would be offensive because I am not psychic and don't know what you think should be grounds for asking. In fact, I feel like discouraging people from asking genuinely curious questions is the wrong way to go. People should feel free to ask.

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Third, and lastly, beyond saying my idea for a houserule is "completely unbalanced" does not make it so. I really don't see how it is a balance issue at all. Even with a suite you are limited to one power per action, unless it is maintenance. You payed a higher cost in NP to even have the power...but using it is less effective than had you paid less NP for a *more* effective power.

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To pay a single quantum point less to use a power that for the same 2 qp *could* be having a greater effect with an all around cheaper L2 power is not really what I would call "game breaking."

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Yes the one benefit of having a suite is that when you buy the slot dots the dice pool/effect goes up for each slot dot. However those slot dots are still not equal to what a level 2 power, potentially with an extra could get you. You get a slight bump in versatility, but that is why you are paying the L3 premium in NP.

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I dunno...y'all may think I'm off my rocker here, and I'm not trying to have anyone freak out because I "argued" (presented an opinion or idea that is unpopular) or "Skylion is at it again!" cries.

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To put it plainly: It didn't seem an unbalanced idea to me. I've seen at least one game where this houseruie was used. You guys may feel differently. The notion probably dies here. Still doesn't make it wrong to put the idea on the table.

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:end rant:

[Dawn OOC]

I said what I said because to me, that isn't a fix. Just because another group does it or you don't think it's unbalanced makes it all right. I'm stating my opinion here, in straightforward, direct words. It is, in my opinion, not a fix. It is, in my opinion, unbalancing a power.

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Let's look at it this way: Propel and Blast vs Flight and Qbolt. Propel is not as fast as flight and causes you 3 q, not 2. Blast is not as tough as Flight and costs 3 q to use, not 2. But you can get both of them for one 5 NP, where you pay 6 NP at game start to even have access to the powers. If you pay 10, both of the powers gain the benefit of having a second dot, while you're looking at 12 NP to have the benefit of 2 dots.

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So when you look at it as a cost/benefit analysis (with a sad, pathetic table):

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Propel/Blast...........................................................................................| Flight/Qbolt

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Good: costs 5 NP at start for each dot, access to all the suite powers...| Costs 2 q (a renewable resource) in game, more powerful

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Bad: costs 3/5 q in game, less powerful.................................................| Costs 6 NP per dot at start, no access to other powers

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You decide if you're paying more at the start of the game with non-renewable resources or if you're paying more during the course of the game with a renewable resource. That's what balance is: making it so that if one player chooses a power for thematic reasons, they feel that they aren't hosed in comparison to another power. Or making it so that there is no power that everyone gets because it's too handy not to have (Jack of All Trades in M&M, I'm looking at you); that'd you'd literally be stupid not to take.

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And Sky, I don't think you know what balanced is. I've seen your play style in the past (yes, I know you've changed, but you seem to have meant in your own personality not in play style) and you like powerful characters that eek every advantage out of the system. Building a tightly-designed, efficient build not a bad thing, in and of itself. What is bad is not being able to see or understand where a change makes a power inherently unbalanced. I'm not freaking out about this conversation as much as I'm rolling my eyes. I believe that the other players will see things the same as Fox and I do. I believe that they understand, so ultimately, the purpose of this entire post was to explain to you, Sky, why I found your suggestion unbalancing. Not because it came from the OMG-EBIL!!!!ONE1! Skylion, but because it is balanced (or as balanced as this shit gets in Abby). Is there room for improvement? Fuck yes, as Reven more or less said, Abby's a decent system once your house-rule it to death. But 'improvement' doesn't always mean that it makes it better for the players; sometimes, it just makes the power better.

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And I'm going to repeat that last line because it's important: 'improvement' doesn't always mean that it makes it better for the players; sometimes, it just makes the power better.

[Marco Moreno]

Just to be all official-like; I vote no! Something else people seem to be missing. Once you have 1 dot in EC/EM, you can use any of the powers. Yes the ones you don't have through dots in EC/EM have a penalty to their use, but still 1 dot at 5 points (three if you take it tainted) gives you access to something like 7 or 8 different powers!

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Pay your god dammed 3 QP to activate it and be happy you have it...

[Mr Fox]

I'll add, that I have sometimes chosen to go with individual powers over buying a suite. But I really do feel that by taking the suite power you are getting something, versatility, and the cost is higher Q to use it. Sure you could take one dot in each of those powers and they would be more powerful and cost less, but then if you wanted to raise those powers to 5 dots, you'd spend a hell of a lot more to get them all to five, whereas if you buy them all as a suite power you only have to raise one power to 5 dots.

5 lvl 2 powers at 5 dots would cost = 75 nova points

1 lvl 3 suite power at 5 dots (which give you 5 separate powers at 5 dots each) = 25 nova points

That is a hell of a lot of savings by buying a suite power. Granted you wouldn't necessarily need 5 dots in all 5 of those lvl 2 powers for them to be effective, but you can see from the math above where raising one skill to 5 dots is a hell of a lot cheaper than raising 5 of them to 5 dots. That's the trade off and why I wouldn't house rule it to drop the quantum cost. If you wanted, you could always take Reduced Quantum Cost extra to bring down the per use cost.

[SeaEagle]

I'm against this on three different platforms:

1: Redefining suite powers will require much more work than a quick patch.

2: Anything that changes in IE will effect CN, A&A, Final Frontier, and other games run here under the IE umbrella. some places do better with the rules as written than others.

3: Issues with suite powers are simply patched with simple ST oversight.

I think that at least this issue should be discussed (if needed) among the STs of the various IE games.

A&A: Dawn & Justin

CN: Fox, Justin, and Tommy

FF: Tommy

I think that is a accurate representation of the "Founders" of each of the current sub-universes in Infinite Earth.

Addendum:

The other drawback of a suite is the fact that you can only use one power in a suite during a turn. If you're flying with Propel, then have to Blast someone, well I hope you got a parachute because you're falling.Simply put, suite powers have drawbacks that I think have not been mentioned yet.

[Mr Fox]

Actually, subworlds rules take precedent (within that subworld) over IE general rules. So even if we voted in IE to allow something, that wouldn't necessarily change things for the subworlds unless the players or ST for those worlds agreed to it.

Edit:

Also, I don't know that CN necessarily has a group of ST like founders. We've always handled it more as a majority rule of current active players. Pretty much any major change that needs to be made would require a vote.

[SeaEagle]

Oh.

I hope then that Dawn doesn't mind if I co-opt her device rules in A&A for Final Frontiers?

I'm also thinking of takign some things from other games that I think would be hella-useful in a space opera setting.

[SkyLion]

I forgot about being able to push suite powers for other sub powers.

Also, IIRC, some of the suite options are maintenance so you can use more than one at a time.

Dawn makes a decent case though. Thanks for hearing me out. Mainly what triggered me was the swearing, which did not come across as a cool headed or rational response. The second response (crappy table and all) was a much more cogent look at things.

[Dawn OOC]

Sky, I swear in general nowadays. I blame Reven for corrupting me. You don't need to worry until I break out the CAPS LOCK and the dirty words.

[Dave ST]

This also steps back to the 'Want vs. Need' scenario. There is no need to change the suite power's cost. You just want to pay less for the activation.

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Saying "I would really like to just pay less for this, so can we just house rule that I can?" That's the wrong reason to ask for a house rule.

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If you want to pay 2QP to activate it, buy it as a Level 2 power outside the suite and there you go. Problem solved, you have the power you want, and you pay less for it.

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I blame Reven for corrupting me.

It's just my way of giving back.

[SkyLion]

You have used this want vs need statement a few times now Dave and I really d not understand your point.

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There is zero that we need when it comes to playing RPGs. The entire enterprise is based on wants.

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Also, houseruling systems when you don't like them is like the golden rule of gaming. Most of my games and groups have some level of house rulings going on.

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I just think it is honestly stupid how they made the Suite powers work, and you are basically overjuicing for less effort...what should be *more* efficient IMHO is less.

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So yes...With a few exceptions I will be buying most powers outside of a suite since that is just plain better all around in such cases.

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But please...don't use this silly idea about wanting and needing. All I really *need* are some warm clothes, food, a roof, and maybe a hug, but I play RPGs because I WANT to.

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Silly Dave is silly.

[Marco Moreno]

And silly skylion is missing the point. again. and being condescending while doing it.

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His statement is about needs and wants withing the context of playing a role playing game. I would have thought that to be an obvious conclusion, but apparently it is too obtuse for some.

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In the context of an RPG system you (the collective you as opposed to you, skylion specifically) need rules that are fair for everyone involved. Otherwise you will have unhappy players and eventually the game will tank as those getting the short end of the stick will eventually get annoyed with the disparity of treatment and either ruin the game for everyone else or just quit.

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The desire for more power is a want. You (again collectively) want to have a character who can perform their intended function and perform it well. This generally makes the character more powerful.

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In context to this discussion (and not some off topic theoretical about what a human being needs for basic existence) the desire to have suite powers cost less to activate is a want. It doesn't need to be that way to make the character functional. You just don't like the cost to power/versatility ratio and wish it were different. Want vs. Need.

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Oh and as a side note. Using an argument like you just pulled above knowing full well what we are talking about is why people get pissed off with you and not want to deal with you.

[SkyLion]

Not being condescending. Being whimsical.

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And it *would* be fair to everyone if it was applied across the board for everyone. It wasn't like I was asking for a special exception or something if that is what you are implying.

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Again, in a number of the current games I play in, the players or DMs will often observe a particular rule or mechanic that doesn't seem right, or well thought out, so...we all discuss it and agree on a fix.

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What is funny to me (and which fuels my whimsy) is how so many people on here seem to love to lambast the Aberrant rules (which I love btw...lots of ways to get creative with it)...and even in this case several people all chiming in to agree that the suite power setup is silly and could be better...

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Yet when I suggest what to me seems like a step in the right direction *I* in turn get lambasted for *wanting* to change things.

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If we all agree it could be better, why cling to what is not better?

[Marco Moreno]

You aren't looking at the rule you'd like to put into place in comparison with the greater scheme of things that's why. It isn't about being fair to everyone who has a suite power; it's about not being fair to everyone who doesn't have a suite powers. Yes, the suite powers are poorly executed; we all agree. they are however, balanced for what you get. the benefit to the suite powers is that for only a few points you get access to a lot of effects, but they are generally less powerful than powers bought individually and cost more to use. For 5 points in EA/EM you get the use of 8 powers. 1 that can be used for 3 Quantum points and 7 others that can be used for 6 quantum points (and an increased difficulty). As you add dots to either EA or EM you get more powers that can be used for 3 Quantum Points and without the difficulty increase until the ratio is 5 and 3. That is a lot of versatility. To get 8 level 2 powers even at 1 dot is 24 Nova points. The trade off is they are more powerful than suite effects and cost less to use. Balance. Not great balance everyone admits but balance none the less. Your solution basically removes one of the balancing features between suite and non suite powers, thus is bad.

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If you want to find a way to fix Suite powers you basically have to start from scratch. Something that gives you as many effects as Elemental Anima or Elemental Mastery does for just 1 Dot needs some major nerfs. Those effects should not be as easy or as efficient to use as the level 2 powers they are based off of.

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As for your attempt at whimsy. Stuff like that translates poorly over an electronic medium. Emoticons help with conveying "hey I'm just being silly here" but even still often times you just end up coming off like a douche. Again, you in the general rather than specific sense. I don't know you and I don't really know your sense of humor so that post I found offensive (Hence the somewhat hostile nature of my last post). It doesn't help that instead of directly addressing Dave's points you tried to circumvent his argument with that bit about what people "really" need, as if we don't understand this is just a game. That was douchey dude; just sayin'.

[SkyLion]

If you say so. I honestly did not get his intended meaning of want vs need.

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It is true this is one of the most...volatile forums I've been around. People get touchy here. But for now and future reference if I am genuinely upset or whatever I will say so. When given the choice between an interpretation of "Skylion is having fun, or simply doesn't understand something" and "Skylion is trying to be a douche" it is safe in all cases to assume the former. Hence, smiley.

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As to the topic at hand, I ALWAYS ask my DM/GM/ST for what I want. Sometimes they say no, sometimes they say yes, but usually the answer is not "no just *because* you want it". In many cases they are happy to give me what I want. So, I am of the mind it never hurts to ask.

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Now, since there is no ST to ask here, but an OW community, it gets trickier because people can different tastes and styles and there isn't one firm hand setting the pace (looking at MH). Mod-wars have flared up in the past because different people had different notions of what they wanted from the game.

[Marco Moreno]

Fair enough.

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I am curious though. Why do you love this system? I mean, everyone agrees that it is flawed in the extreme, is not at all customizable without major effort, and poorly executed and presented. Is it just the setting that you love or am I missing some hidden gem in the system somewhere?

[Dawn OOC]

I was going to post another rant here, Sky, about your douchy ways. However, I'm literally so pissed right now that I'm having trouble typing. It's taking so much concentration to find the right keys that I'm literally mistyping entire words. And since I've said literally twice in two sentences, you can be sure I mean this. So let's bullet point the high points:

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1. You took Dave's argument completely out of context but Marco covered that already.

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2. Calling someone 'silly' in a debate/discussion between two adult is fucking condescending. Fuck lack of internet tone. Its just fucking rude.

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3. I admit that I look more closely at your suggested house rules; I do that with other people too. Mala is one, because she has a natural eye for creating broken power combos unintentionally (which she is always willing to fix/neuter for the game, I should add). But I don't dismiss them out of hand because they came from you. I look at them closely because you are a twink and we have a looooooooooong history, you and I.

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4. Before you call it unfair that I'm holding your past against you, consider this: YOU FUCKING EARNED EVERY OUNCE OF THAT HISTORY THROUGH LONG DOUCHERY ON THIS SITE. I have given you your second chance years ago, so I have zero patience for your antics, for the fact that you seem to feel entitled to get your way just because you're a player and because you're a pain in the ass.

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5. I could give two shits about what you've done with house rules in other games. Those are OTHER GAMES. What might work for one won't work for another game. You always bring up what other STs have allowed you to do, as if you expect us to go, "Oh, you mean you've done this in another game?! OH, GOD, I'm sooo sorry! I didn't realize someone else let you pull of this asshat move! Here, I'm going to let it into my game so you can fuck my game over, too. Do I need to remove my pants for the virtual reaming, or can you just do it through my clothing?"

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6. I'm sure there will be more if I calm down. Or, you know, the next time you post.

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And just to bring this full circle: ANGRY DAWN IS ANGRY.

[SkyLion]

Wow. Overreact much?

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This place is a powder keg I swear.

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Silly Dave is Silly was meant to be playful, not douchey. Just like I had to tell Saku the other day: chill. You are reading meaning and malice in my posts that simply is not their from my end. It's paranoid and frankly unwarranted.

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I figured I could be playful, because in spite of the rows Dave and I once had, he has shown a remarkable ability to let go of the past and has shown me that he can take a bit of playful joking. If he comes in here and tells me he was so offended by my posts (and like me I really don't think he lets it get to him), then I will forthrightly apologize.

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And seriously? What is with this intense reaction? Name calling, yelling, swearing.

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Saku freaked out at me the other day, and I had to call him on his overreaction, and you know what? He came back and apologized.

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You guys are all entitled to have whatever thoughts you have. If you want to believe I am a douchey twink as Dawn does, then I can't stop you.

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Just realize that all of those judgements are in you, and on you.

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Once again I have to say this: I'm doing my damndest to play nice and have fun with you guys, so please stop acting like I am intentionally trying to ruin your day.

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Regarding point #5: This may surprise you, but in spite of the reputation I seem to have here...this is the ONLY place where I have it. On EON before NPrime I was a respected member. On the Cthulhutech boards I am a mod. I play in something like 12 other DnD or Vampire games and every one of those players and DMs/STs would give me a glowing testimonial....

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It is only HERE where things have gotten so out of proportion, and Dawn's post I think is why. This place can be very cliquish. People have a tendency to blow up here. it is a very emotional board. I don't know why...it just is. And in my early days here when I had less experience dealing with that kind of stuff I often let my temper get the best of me and fed into it.

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Well guess what: when I came back this time I SWORE to myself not to get involved in any of that drama. I am here to have a good time, and would like to have a good time with y'all. So please: Can't we all just get along, stop with the name-calling, and not assume the worst about people?

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Moving on:

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Thank you Marco for getting where I was coming from.

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To answer your question: I have always loved the elegance of the Storyteller based system.

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I cut my rig teeth on AD&D 2nd edition, Traveler, Champions, Palladium...all ridiculously complex systems. It would take hours of tweaking and crunching math to come up with characters.

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When my buddy introduced me to Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf I fell in love with how simple it was. Dot ratings from 1 to 5 or 1 to 10. A simple priorities based point buy system and enough flexibility to tweak those numbers when needed (such as an Elder Kindred game).

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With Aberrant I am all about player defined powers, and finding new and interesting ways to combine and simulate those powers. Unfortunately my clever ideas often go unappreciated around here.

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Regarding the setting, my favorite aspect of it is the celebrity angle Aberrants get to play with. The notion of how the world would react to super mutants reminded me of the Ultraverse Line which I collected religiously when it came out. There was this awesome character Choice, who was a spokes-hero for the Choice Corporation (cola, fashion etc.). She had flight, force fields, and strength, but she had to choose which to use at any moment. Another character in that universe was Hardcase who was a movie star in the vein of Wonderman. And of course Prime, who is the inspiration for my favorite Aberrant character ever (who again sadly goes woefully underappreciated by everyone here save for Titan (the ST) who loved him.

[The Story Guide]

"Silly Dave is Silly" is a condescending statement. That's the equivalent of patting someone on the head like they're a five year old and you're the wise elder showing them the way. If you can't grasp that, then....I don't even know where to go there. Find some etiquette classes before trying to interact with others again.

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"Unfortunately my clever ideas often go unappreciated around here." This is also condescending. We don't find your ideas clever, we find them to be the product of a twink monkey that uses gaming as a virtual penis and has serious narcissistic issues. Go play somewhere else.

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Please.

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Now.

[SkyLion]

*Sigh*

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You know what.

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I will not succumb to being bullied off of this site again by you Mala.

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You guys can go through my whole post history and read how much I have being putting forth every effort to get along and participate in a fun and creative manner.

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If I get any more of this bullying from you or anyone, here in the forums or in chat, I am going to take it straight to Chosen.

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This is supposed to be a welcoming community of gamers.

[The Story Guide]

You are more than welcome to take these posts to Chosen. He has access to the years of behavior that have earned you this response, as well. We were welcoming, until you threw tantrums, cussed at STs, refused to follow the rules of the game because the character and player involved was female.....I believe I still even have the chat log when you, when denied a custom-built powerset for a game run by Carver, your response was "Well, you're just a girl!" which was then followed by several gender-based cuss words I don't care to repeat here.

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You have earned the emnity you find here and your posts so far have shown zero change in your attitudes or gaming style.

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So I will state my preference again, without cussing, caps shouting, or referencing your genitalia:

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I, personally, do not want to you here and will not game with you. Ever again. Please leave.

[SkyLion]

:Deep Breath:

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I have PMed Chosen about your bullying Mala.

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Do as you will but do NOT tell me what to do, or try and bait me into fighting with you.

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This is not your turf.

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This is a community.

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You don't know me. I am not the villain you have constructed in your mind.

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Lastly, your record here is not perfect either, this ongoing vitriol included. The tragedy here is that it doesn't matter how I behave. You will only see me through a warped filter. I could be the saint of gamers in reality and you would see only the devil. It's sad to me, because there is such a huge disconnect between your perception and belief and my reality.

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Post a list of your characters and accounts and I will not interact with them.

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Everyone else: I look forward to some good story-telling/gaming.

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I will be ignoring any further pejorative posts about me.

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Conversations about gaming, characters, rules, movies, media, and popular culture welcomed.

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Thank you.

[The Story Guide]

I have never told you what to do. I asked, even saying please, for you to leave. I am not going to play in games with you, nor am I going to make up a list for you. It is easy enough, if you take the time to look over the site, to see which accounts are linked. You can do that on your own time.

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You are, also, exactly the person I have constructed in my mind, as all I have constructed is based off your own actions and words here on the site. Leaving for a time does not erase your previous misogynistic and narcissistic behavior. Life doesn't work that way. Returning with statements like "While you didn't make Jon as deadly as he should have been in such a circumstance (leeches should have had mega str)" when you were not running the game or the character and had in fact been removed from the game for refusing to abide by the rules of said game because "Jon would never be afraid of a girl" shows that you have not, in fact, changed in any significant manner.

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I did not want to deal with you, in games or on the site in general, then and I do not want to now. I have not demanded you leave or said that you were required. I stated my desire, my request, that you leave. You have ignored it. That was not unexpected. It does not invalidate my opinion or the request itself. Such is life on both ends.

[SkyLion]

I prefer not to live in the past. I have apologized for every offensive thing I have ever said. It does not seem like the apologies were accepted, because the same old shit keeps getting dug up and thrown. Dug up and thrown. And I will not get dragged into the he said she said with you. If I am the villain you think I am, how do you account that nowhere else on the internet do I get this reaction? If it were universal you could make a good case for me taking a hard look at myself. However, since it is only you, and for the same years old grievance it was last time, I think it's safe to say that you are just holding a grudge.

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The last time I came back it was this bullying of yours that had me leave but I'm not going to let it this time.

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You want to hold a grudge? Fine. Your prerogative. But I don't think anyone appreciates this drama (that I didn't ask for mind you, this is you and Dawn taking a rules conversation and making it into a personal attack on me) cluttering up this thread.

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If anyone has anything further to say on this matter, please send it to me in a PM.

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This thread is for OOC discussion of IE, not a place to bring up old beef.

[The Story Guide]

I couldn't care less how "the rest of the internet" treats you. You are here, in the space I come to relax and tell stories with people I enjoy being around. I don't need to "make a case" and yes, I hold a rather high level of dislike and disgust for condescending, misogynistic and sexist individuals.

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I play in this forum. You are a known disruptive element seeking entrance to this forum. I do not want you or your twinked out, specialist-snowflake-ever-and-ever-because-I'll-twist-the-rules-until-they-scream-for-mercy characters here. That is the relevance of my posts thus far.

[SkyLion]

Tut tut. Name calling is not nice. In most places on the internet what you are doing is called flaming and trolling and will get you moderated or banned.

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You have the right to not interact with me, but creating a scene is uncalled for. You are deliberately creating a toxic atmosphere around me in this thread and I do not appreciate it.

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Again: I did nothing wrong or untoward. I was having a civil discussion about one aspect of the rules I always found puzzling. Dawn and Marco and Dave made excellent points that I accepted as valid.

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And now this...you come in spewing your hatred. Not cool. If you have nothing nice to say really just keep your feelings to yourself. I didn't ask for your drama or prejudice and I don't want it now.

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Now it is my turn to ask: please leave me alone.

[The Story Guide]

"Tut tut."

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....and we're back to condescending.

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I did not "name call". I use descriptors that are accurate based on the behaviour you have displayed on this site. Libel only applies when it is false.

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Nor will I "keep my feelings to myself" simply because they are uncomplimentary to you. As I have stated and will continue to state, I do not want you in this game nor particularly anywhere on this site. But most pertinently, not in this game or any I am in.

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As for not wanting my "drama or prejudice", a good precursor to that is not acting in ways that I find highly offensive. Being unable to change your past, my best secondary suggestion is to not be involved in areas where I am already involved. I care nothing for your wants at this point, as you showed repeatedly in the past that you cared nothing for the wants or enjoyment of other players or storytellers.

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I will leave you alone the moment you vacate my gaming space.

[SkyLion]

You are being a bully.

This is not *your* space. It is *our* space.

Kindly leave me alone.

[The Story Guide]

Disagreeing with you and calling you on your behavior patterns is not bullying.

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My gaming space is the space in which I game. I share it with many people and they share their gaming space with me. I do not want you included in the spaces that I game in. I in no way want an "our" space with you. I have experienced that before and do not wish to be again belittled for my sex/gender, ignored rules-wise when you feel the rules are inconvenient, or trampled on by your broken, showboating characters.

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To use your own words about me - you are a gaming and character bully, including informing STs how they didn't do something "right" in their own game because it is not what you would have done. You are so self-absored and self-centered that you seem to lack the capacity to even be aware of this. That is not something I want, nor have to, put up with.

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As I have stated repeatedly, I will leave you alone when you are no longer intruding in my gaming space.

[Vivi OOC]

Hokay, wow. Look, guys. I don't even play in the IE sandbox (yet), but please, please, take a deep breath, have a smoke, have some sex, listen to some smooth jazz, take a walk, or whatever you need to do to calm down. Please?

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To some extent, Sky is right. This is a shared forum. On the other hand, everything here is done with player consensus, which means if every other player shuns you, your games are going to be very lonely ones indeed. Sky, I know you've said you're trying really hard to move past your history here, but some people were more deeply affected by your behavior last time. It's not "on them." They were the ones impacted and hurt and disappointed because of your actions. That's your responsibility, in much the same way it's your responsibility if you cold-cock someone; you don't break their jaw and then say it's their fault for having such breakable bones. If you want things to be right with these people, you need to not just apologize, but be accountable. If you want to maybe make a difference, you need to ask: "Okay, Dawn/Mala/Whoever. What can I do to fix this?" and then really listen, understanding that they are deeply frustrated and that the wounds you've left (even unintentionally) have not healed.

,,

I'm willing, personally, to hear you out, based solely on the fact that I've been given chances here before when I didn't feel I deserved them. The biggest issues that I see are perception and communication. Most people are convinced you "just don't get it" and that you are repeating old patterns, particularly those dealing with "twinkery," your perception of women, and your relationship to an ST. I'm not raking you over the coals, here, but one of the biggest problems I had with you last time you were here was that you just flat-out refused to accept that you were wrong, or that you even treated people the way you actually did. You always claimed you didn't see it that way, and called them paranoid.

,,

The world doesn't always see us the way we see ourselves. While it may or may not be accurate, if you want to function well in the world, you have to work with an understanding that, to everyone else, that perception is valid. It doesn't matter, on this forum, how other forums or people perceive you, because people here haven't had that experience, and there's no way of knowing if the others've had the same experience the players here have. We've seen what we've seen, and no amount of claiming other people are fine with you is going to change that fact. What (maybe) can be changed is how this group of writers and players and dreamers and artists and STs will view you in the future.

,,

You are an intelligent person, and a fellow human being. Try saying to yourself, "Okay. Quite a few people all have this opinion of me. These are the behaviors they've cited that led to this opinion. Is it possible I actually behaved this way?" and consider the possibility that there might be a major disconnect between how you view your actions and how those actions are coming across to your audience.

[SkyLion]

Wow Vi...that was amazingly cogent.

Posting from my phone so will be brief:

I do get it. I get that people perceive me in this way that colors my every word to them.

Believe me, if there was a way to reach out to Mala to heal old wounds I would do so, but frankly I don't believe it is possible.

Its like a guy who has an alcohol problem, does a bunch of shit an people think he is a dirtbag. Later on he cleans up and comes back but all people see is the old dirtbag. Even though he has changed, in their minds they will not let him change. They will not see all the days of introspection and they give him no chance to even demonstrate different behavior, because he is damned in their minds before he opens his mouth. Then, when he does speak, and tries to kid and be friendly, his words are warped through that perceptual filter...

I admit: I have been a downright argumentative bastard in the past. That is why now I will always as for something once and if I get a no I allow myself one instance of coming back with an argument in favor. If the answer is still no, I accept it.

[Dawn OOC]

Sky, I'm glad you read and understood Vivi's post. Let me address one of her points that particularly struck me, because it is at the heart of whether I cut you slack or even desire to have you around me (because there are people here I don't care for, but I don't intentionally ignore them or talk to them like I talk to you).

If you want to maybe make a difference, you need to ask: "Okay, Dawn/Mala/Whoever. What can I do to fix this?" and then really listen, understanding that they are deeply frustrated and that the wounds you've left (even unintentionally) have not healed.

,,

This part right here. I feel that you have never asked me what you could do to fix our broken relationship. And we did have a relationship at one time. We talked about stuff that had nothing to do with gaming a lot. In my perception, I invested time and energy into helping you fit into the site, while you insulted and belittled my beliefs, my gender and my other friends (you were someone I thought of as a friend, once).

,,

My religion puts little weight in what a person says, but a great deal of weight in what a person does. I judge you by all your actions. You may have said the words "How can I fix this?" and I may have answered them, but you have not done anything to correct them. Until you show me that you are not the person who broke our friendship by his deeds, then you will be treated as someone I cannot trust.

,,

I have never said we cannot be friends again. But I cannot be friends with the person I perceive you are today, and that perception will not change until I see you behaving as a different person. I am willing to give people another chance to prove they have changed. But words are not proof; behavior is, and I do not trust blindly.

,,

Just to be clear: I'm not angry, and I took care not to cuss too much. I'm just... tired and sad more than anything else right now. Vivi's post opened that door for me to express myself that way, so thank you Vivi. I appreciate you.

[Mr Fox]

Hello all.

I just read everything here and have some observations if you guys don't mind me making them.

1) Some over reaction is happening.

2) Sky has earned extra scrutiny due to past actions and it is incumbent upon him to make up for them, not by words but by actions.

3) I think he is trying from what I've read here. I've never seen him give up a character concept in the past the way he put aside TO when told it wouldn't work. Sure he argued a bit for it, but when it was plain that it wouldn't be welcomed he dropped it. That is a change from past behavior.

4) Perception is everything. Trying to be silly and adding emoticons to show no malice intended doesn't necessarily mean it won't be perceived as malicious anyway.

5) I understand that Sky has been responding more to the responses than to the 'discussion' of the suite mechanics, none-the-less I think it's pretty obvious that no one is going to agree that things should be changed, and like the T.O. character concept, the topic should be dropped lest people 'Perceive' this to be doggedly arguing for something that has been denied.

6) Sky mentioned that he will respond to discussions by questioning once, and then making a counter argument and then dropping the subject. This might be an excellent time to do just that and show that actions speak louder than words.

7) This site can be volatile. It can be cliquish. This is not a good thing. On the other hand, it is also community, and it has survived some big flare-ups, and we've proven we can move past the flames and still write together and be friends even if it does put a strain on relationships. When someone has burned bridges, it takes a lot of effort to build new ones, like it or not and there is no automatic guarantee of acceptance just because we all want to play together in our shared sandboxes.

[Krul]

I was going to keep out of this, but I feel I should speak up, as I believe in being fair and merciful with people, and while some of what has been said is unfair, it is not unearned, maybe you don't have a bad reputation elsewhere, sky, but, it doesn't matter what goes on elsewhere, so much as what has happened here, if you want a different reputation change the way you interact with others in the forums. I think perhaps some people have difficulty forgiving past words, deeds and actions, but when you cause some of the wounds you have in the past, I can understand that, even if I think it's a bit unfair when you become interested in other games, it's a problem you caused in the first place.

,,

You need to face up to one fact though, a good number of the characters you create are broken, in one way or another, if not unworkable for the group, loners who won't fit into the group, or unworkable for ST running the game, which is part of the problem in some cases, and I think if you ask the majority ST who you have created characters for, they would agree with me.

,,

Now, I do think you've gotten a bit better about it, but bringing back old broken characters that created problems in previous games and left bad feelings all around is not the way to repair your reputation around here.

,,

In a consensual group game like this one, reputation matters even more, because players know that they are going to have to work with you and your characters, and sense both Dawn and Mala have characters in this arena, it's fair for them to have reservations based on your past behavor, but to be fair to you, it's also fair to let you try to fit in a character...

,,

One bit of advice though, try making characters who are more organic then mathematical, if you need me to clarify.. instead of looking at powers that you want .. look at it from a more personal level, try to create a person first, then a super-powered person who fits with their midset, and don't feel like you need to be able to do everything..

[Dawn OOC]

Krul, you couldn't know this, but I feel I should mention: Monday night Sky and I spent quite of bit of time in a private conversation hashing over his concept for CN. I would do no less for anyone in this community, so I feel that I have been accommodating when I don't have to be--or even want to be. As I said, he can earn back more esteem from me, but I would see that play out in actions and not just in one action. Not just pulling a character, but in how he treats other people and how he acts in game.

,,

This will be a long term, hard project for Sky, if he's interested. If not, I'll tolerate him as much as I tolerate anyone else on this board who I don't like, and that includes calling him on bad behavior when I see it. Not that he'll acknowledge or apologize for things that offend, but I can't be silent when I see it. They have a word for women who speak their mind, and I'll own it proudly.

[Dave ST]

They have a word for women who speak their mind, and I'll own it proudly.

Accomplished? Acquainted with? Brainy? Civilized? Coached? Corrected? Cultivated? Cultured? Developed? Enlightened? Enriched? Erudite? Expert? Fitted? Formed? Informed? Initiated? Instructed? Intelligent? Knowledgeable? Lettered? Literary? Literate? Nurtured? Polished? Prepared? Professional? Refined? Scholarly? Schooled? Scientific? Shaped? Skilled? Tasteful? Taught? Trained? Tutored? Versed in? Well-informed? Well-read? Well-taught? Well-versed?

,,

C'mon help me out here, am I close?

,,

I'm glad everyone is now a healing path, really, I'm all squishy inside. I appreciate everyone coming to my defense as well, it's certainly appreciated.

,,

Now, on to the problem:

,,

Suite powers suck and need to be fixed (well they suck for you guys, they rock for me). As a suggestion, in my TT version of the game, I took each power in the suite and assigned it it's own cost based on usefulness or utility. Some where only a single point to use, while others still cost 3QP to use. Shaping for example was only a single point if used in a relaxed environment but was increased to 2 in a combat application because the nova had to think quicker and make the effect happen on a NOW time scale so it required a little more juice. I also made Clone a suite power too, which didn't get a lot of acceptance from the people around here. If you don't like the costs, then simply change them, BUT propose an entirely new method or resolving the suite power issue, not just a simple "lower the cost" solution. That doesn't resolve the issue because the suite power mechanic as a whole, still sucks.

,,

The Elemental Anima I use as a home brew has over 13 powers available for it, that's a lot when you only get 5 dots to fill, but it works a hell of a lot better than what they have as a system. Guy's it's Aberrant, it's meant to cheesy and super heroey... just find a way to make it work.

,,

Another example are Extras, once applied they have to always be used. I resolved that issue by simply assigning a QP cost to extras and when you wanted to use an Extra in conjunction with a power it cost you more. So if you had Teleport (2 QP to use) with the Combat Teleport Extra (+2 increase in cost) it would cost you 2QP to teleport normally, but in the event you needed to combat teleport, it would cost you 4QP. Each character was more versatile and actually spent XP on their Quantum Pools once in awhile. We had character with pools in 70s and the 130s and after a decent mixer in the streets would have used at least half of it.

,,

Something to consider folks. Propose a fix for the problem, not just a convenient solution (lowering the cost to 2 is just a convenient solution).

[Doryoku]

I think it is now just convenience, but also the fact that some people just want to dive into the game with speed.

This is something to consider.

[SkyLion]

This part right here. I feel that you have never asked me what you could do to fix our broken relationship. And we did have a relationship at one time. We talked about stuff that had nothing to do with gaming a lot. In my perception, I invested time and energy into helping you fit into the site, while you insulted and belittled my beliefs, my gender and my other friends (you were someone I thought of as a friend, once).

My religion puts little weight in what a person says, but a great deal of weight in what a person does. I judge you by all your actions. You may have said the words "How can I fix this?" and I may have answered them, but you have not done anything to correct them. Until you showme that you are not the person who broke our friendship by his deeds, then you will be treated as someone I cannot trust.

,, ,,

I am happy to mend whatever bridges we can, but I also want to put it forward that Mala's extreme reaction had the exact opposite effect upon me. It made me feel that there is nothing I can ever say or do that is going to make her (and perhaps you and others) not hate me.

,,

I feel like if I ask Mala "How can I fix this?" her response is just going to be more "leave and never come back."

,,

The other aspect is one of "walking on eggshells." This is the perfect example...I brought up a ruleset I felt could use some work. The response I had been hoping for was more along the lines of what Dave just posted...a cogent critique of the system.

,,

...what I got instead was "GODDAMMIT SKY YOU %^&*% TWINK!!! HOW DARE YOU QUESTION OR PROPOSE TAKING A LOOK AT THE RULES."

,,

I'm exaggerating there of course but that is what it felt like from my end...a response entirely disproportionate to my inquiry.

,,

As Fox pointed out (and which I hope is being seen and acknowledged because I feel like it has been overlooked by many), I HAVE been changing my actions:

,,

I had a character I LOVE and wanted to play...but I KNEW he might be controversial...so I asked. I received the expected negative response, but yet still came from a place on inquiry...how could this be made to work? When it was still rejected, I packed it up and moved on. Until now no one acknowledged this.

,,

The I had another idea for CN, but again, not quite a fit. The I realized it would be better in A&A so I am revamping...again demonstrating flexibility and cooperation.

,,

I was going to keep out of this, but I feel I should speak up, as I believe in being fair and merciful with people, and while some of what has been said is unfair, it is not unearned, maybe you don't have a bad reputation elsewhere, sky, but, it doesn't matter what goes on elsewhere, so much as what has happened here, if you want a different reputation change the way you interact with others in the forums. I think perhaps some people have difficulty forgiving past words, deeds and actions, but when you cause some of the wounds you have in the past, I can understand that, even if I think it's a bit unfair when you become interested in other games, it's a problem you caused in the first place.

,, ,,

hey I get it: once bitten, twice shy. People who have been attacked by Pit Bulls tend to be forever afraid of them, even if the vast majority of them are sweethearts.

,,

My point about other sites was simply along the lines of it takes two to tango. I've never had these problems on other sites but I feel like most other sites are not volatile and cliquish like this one can be. I admit to have said and done some douchey things in the past, and I'm not saying anything excuses that...but the fact that it ONLY happens here is a clue that I was ALSO reacting (poorly) to what I perceived as douchiness thrown at me. Again, I'm penitent for my past here...truly. But can we at least acknowledge that I am not the only one who has garnered beef and ire around here and that maybe, just maybe, part of that stems from that certain atmosphere of cliquishness?

,,

A perfect example is the pejorative "twink" or "power gamer" that gets thrown around a lot. I identify with the latter but not the former. Others have their own definitions and may disagree but I would point out that power gaming in and of itself is a perfectly viable way to enjoy RPGs....it may not be to YOUR tastes, but it is wrong IMHO to be judgmental about the kinds of characters and stories that other people like just because they are different than yours...that it just simple elitism.

,,

Now...that said, I HAVE really (really!) taken much of this feedback to heart, and as Saku can attest I have really toned down my power gaming urges in favor of character and story...

,,

Which brings us to:

,,

You need to face up to one fact though, a good number of the characters you create are broken, in one way or another, if not unworkable for the group, loners who won't fit into the group, or unworkable for ST running the game, which is part of the problem in some cases, and I think if you ask the majority ST who you have created characters for, they would agree with me.

,, ,,

I fully own up to this, and it has been an evolution for me to create characters for cooperative play. I often have these AWESOME ideas for characters...where they have a lot of interesting parts and plot hooks and potential...but really they are best for solo games because they are so about their own thing that it would force the game to revolve around them or their exploits. Again this is not necessarily a bad thing, but I have become much more attuned to how some of my ideas, while great, just don't fit in with particular games or stories being created cooperatively.

,,

One bit of advice though, try making characters who are more organic then mathematical, if you need me to clarify.. instead of looking at powers that you want .. look at it from a more personal level, try to create a person first, then a super-powered person who fits with their midset, and don't feel like you need to be able to do everything..

,,

This I'm afraid is a habit or style that will die hard if at all. I grew up on comics. I love coming up with interesting power sets. It is genuinely part of the fun for me. I usually come up with a power theme first and then work back from that to create something unified. I know that many of you work in the opposite way, but I would put it forward that just because my creative process is inverted doesn't mean I can't come up with cogent characters.

,,

Case in point: For MH I had a few ideas but eventually settled on a warper. I had a loose idea of the power framework, but nothing else.

,,

As I thought more about what kind of character I wanted to play from the organic personality sense, it began informing further decisions, about appearance, theme, which skills to take and which mega attributes. For the record Dave really liked the character concept I came up with, though we are still hashing out a few of the finer points.

,,

The point being: just because one's creative process starts with "I want to play a character with superman's powers" doesn;t mean that the end product can't be just as fleshed out and well done.

,,

As to your last sentence, I am fine not being able to everything, and really most of my characters I try to make both having a solid theme and cover the 3 bases of movement, defense, attack. I enjoy the tactical "game" aspect as much as the writerly "storytelling" aspect. And that should be ok...

,,

Without quoting his post I'll just say again that Dave totally has the right idea when it comes to modding the system, and I think his way is much better conceived than my simple "flat 2 QP" idea.

[Dawn OOC]

Sky, your storytelling hasn't been the greatest in the past. It focuses a lot on your PC and not enough on the story. You're not the only one like that, which brings me to cliques.

,,

We're a welcoming group. We welcomed you, at first. What you perceived as 'cliqushness' was the first steps of us realizing we didn't enjoy gaming with you. At the core of matters, I'm not here to make things fun for you, Sky. I'm here to have fun. Often, that means doing fun things in games with friends, making my character look dumb or any other number of things that look like losing and wouldn't be fun for the kind of player you have been in the past. Sometimes that means I'm running a game. There are a lot of fun things I can do in gaming, that are easier to do here than in TT, so I love being here. Honestly, the depth of story I can gain here is what brings me back, over and over. I really enjoy that. And I like to play with friends whom I have fun with, which is any number of people on here. You call it cliques; I call it friendship, and I count most people on the site as friends, because I have fun with them.

,,

On the flip side, the brutal truth is that playing with you isn't fun, so I don't do it. I don't enjoy the stories you have told in the past. That may change, but it hasn't yet. Until it does, I don't want to interact with your PCs. If you think that makes me a bitch, so be it. Remember, if you're not having fun in the game, why bother doing it?

[Dawn OOC]

I'm going to add one thing really quickly. To me, a clique is a group of people who are completely uninterested in letting people into their circle of friends. Dictionary.com describes them as "exclusive". That implies we don't want anyone else to join us.

,,

That's just not true. I'd love to have more friends on the site. More friends = more fun. Those of us whom you see as 'cliquish' aren't excluding everyone else; we're excluding you. There is a difference. Perhaps not from your PoV, but again, we're talking about perception, which is how we got to this point in the first place.