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Aberrant RPG - Mastery: How would you rewrite it?


Mr Fox

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I'm glad that this thread has shown me the terrible amount of damage to the game that the 'Range Effect' aspect of Mastery I cause when combined with the 'Area effect' extra and employed on damaging powers like Q-bolt or Disitigration.

1000X range is just Too huge of an increase, but other than that I'd say Mastery makes allotta sence and I don't mind it since it gives players a little to shoot for.

I can't see my players ever reaching QR 7 or above with as little time (once a week... Maybe!) that we play, as I give out EP as per the rules in the book; 1EP for each game +1EP for creativity if any, Synergy if any, Wisdom (never been awarded :P ), etc...

Additionally they only get that EP at the end of a story or when games roll over too many sessions. At most per game they get 2EP... Although this last week saw my Sister in Law beat the all time High score for a single game session by getting a Retarded '6' EP (highest Was 4EP)in a single sitdown... And to boot, it was a Very short game.

Anywho, at that rate the players will have the ability to reach Q^ as earily as 5 Months from now if they just Bank "All EP" from this point on, 2.5 Months if they go Taint madd... I do Not see this as a problem since PC's are Always intended to be the 'Special Ones' above ANY npc's in a game.

But even with the EP they would need in MY game to play through [QR6x4] months In game, before Taint, to do this. Plus they need to have earned 40EP from MAXING one or more powers total, in addition to the EP needed to buy the new QR unless gotten tainted...

Then they still need my permission (a good/great reason, epic playing, etc...).

But now I CAN see that, if anything, Mastery I needs to have the Range increase be only x100 for AOE effects at most.

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I was unavailable most of the week so I'm catching up and want to address a few points that were made.

Good points about reasons for not requiring 5 dots in everything first.

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El,

Well said on the 'what Aberrant is all about' rant. smile I've always felt the same. The downside is that it doesn't always translate into the game well if players are looking for different things out of the game. I failed badly in my Stargate game on the recent plot arc about the Ascension device and saving the Asgard. I was trying to focus the players on the questions of what the device meant and how their decisions would effect not just themselves but all of Earth/Humanity. That wasn't what people were interested in, or perhaps more likely I didn't deliver it well enough. We had some great discussions/arguments outside the game in OOC venues but they didn't find their way into the story which was sad for me.

____

Just to address the points between Kaz and Dav... I don't think I've ever been in or run a game where there wasn't at least one person in the group that would squeeze every ounce of benefit out of the system math wise. Maybe that's just because half my friends that I've gamed with are either programmers or engineers and therefore math nerds. Personally I don't have any issues with the math guys, its part of what they enjoy so more power to them. (Pun intended) Neither view is right or wrong, it's simply different aspects of gaming. I like Caramel, my wife likes Chocolate, she's not better than me and I'm not better than her, we just like different things. There's only a problem when one side feels their way is the 'right' way and the other way is crap, and there's just no need for that. However you enjoy the game is the 'right' way.

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Speaking of math. I will freely admit to being one of the mathmatically challenged. I love the idea of including a comprehensive "Here's what it will cost" chart for easy reference. Kaz or El, would one of you be willing to put such a thing together?

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What we are are talking about will be non-canon so whether it is simply a revised edit of the original, or a completely new and improved system or combination of the two it would be up to the individual ST to approve or disapprove of it's use.

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by using Mastery as a power, you have to pay 12xp for the one thing you want. And that's if the aspect you want is covered by the first dot. If its not, then you have to pay more.

I like Dawn's idea, but with a caveat. Allow the player to buy the 'dots' of mastery just like they would the dots of a Suite power. They get to pick and choose which order they learn them. It just makes logical sense. If a person is focusing on going greater distance with Warp they aren't going to suddenly improve the size of it's opening or how much it costs.

The reason I bring this all up is that I am still kicking around the idea of putting out a Revised addition of the APG if I can ever find the time. No reason I couldn't include both the revised original and Dawn's optional system. (This assumes I ever have the time to do it. Life if very busy for me at the moment.)

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4) The increasing cost of purchasing each succeeding dot of this new "Power" would deter many gamers from ever maxing the Extra out at all. Instead, many players would choose the portions of Mastery that they want the most for that particular power (most likely the Scope, Effect, or Cost portions) for relatively little XP and then never bother purchasing the rest of the Extra (which they probably will feel they can live happily without).

This is true! If you want people to spend the points for all 5 dots of something there has to be an incentive one worth the cost of buying 5 dots of a Level 4 power. That's a lot more than 23xp by the way. So there better be a significant return for those expenditures, otherwise no one will ever do it.

Buying it as a 5 dot power:

12 + 9 + 18 + 27 + 45 = 111 xp total. (assuming we give that 5th dot a use) That's nearly 5 times the cost of buying the power as an extra. I could have skipped mastery and bought my way up to Q8 for that many xp. At that cost I'd want it to do even more than it currently does, and number wise that's why no one would ever buy more than just the dot or two that included the benefit they wanted.

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All of the Q6+ powers and such are DEEP into "negotiate with the ST" territory. All the powers are not equally broken or equally appropriate for all games.

A good point to keep in mind when thinking about mastery. It's going to be pretty rare that a game ever goes into these power ranges or that an ST allows mastery. I've never yet been in a game where Q7 was allowed. It's hard enough to balance things at the lower levels much less at the cosmic power scales of the lvl 5 and 6 powers. When you are playing something at these levels it really isn't about the dice, it's about having a grip on what the characters are capable of doing. The system and the lvl 4+ powers and mastery give the players and ST a framework within which to create their story. Even in a TT game at these power levels if you are relying on the dice to determine what happens, your game is doomed. When characters have the power to move continents and warp to other galaxies, it isn't about who can get the most successes, it's about exploring the possibilities, and about creating a story. These rules provide that frame of reference to know what is or is not possible.

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El, nice point on timing for buying these powers. We all form our likes and dislikes on our experiences.

Let me tell a little story, or maybe not so little. When I first started gaming in 8th grade my best friend and I (and various others over the course of high school), played AD&D. We played the same game and we ran the same characters over the course of basically 5 years. Those characters started out at lvl 1 and over time became practically demi-gods in the game world they were set in. We had fun. We created stories. The characters grew. It was a great balance of RP and mechanics growth. After high school that fell apart when he went off to the Air Force and the others we occasionally gamed with disappeared into real life.

So I found a new gaming group for a few years. I was the youngest guy there by several years. They were much more mature gamers and RP'ed very well and the stories created were epic. But... (there's always a but), they had the attention span of A.D.D. monkeys on crack. The GM couldn't settle on anything and every month or two we'd be off to a new game (or game system). The games were fun. We created tons of characters, but then they'd get shelved never to been seen again. There was no growth. The characters never evolved (mechanically or storywise) because they never saw consistent play. It frustrated me to no end to constantly change characters and systems. The other problem was that as the 'new guy' I never got the spotlight in any of the stories. The GMs best friend or wife or other friends always had some 'something' in which their character shined and took spotlight. From this experience I developed two issues, first I hate learning new systems now, I like sticking with the ones I know, and second I developed a habit of trying to make characters who could fill any role in the party. It was my own version of Sky's uber character syndrome. Even with all that, I still miss gaming with those guys, the RP was the best I've been involved with.

Then I moved to Houston and found a new group and spent most of my time being the ST instead of a player. Most of my games have run 2+ years. I always start the characters out at low power levels but I'm generous with XP awards, probably more so than most STs. All of those games have progressed over a 2 to 3 year period from base level guys to epic power levels. It's a good mix from what I've seen. I'm only speaking for myself here, but part of the fun of a game for me is to see real mechanical growth in the characters (along with RP growth) over time. I've also found that somewhere between 2 to 3 years the players start to lose interest, or in some cases the game gets unmanagable at those power levels). Either way, it seems to be a pretty good balance, or has been in my experience.

I'd love to go back to those high school days when I could take a character and spend 5 years developing him, but the reality is it would take a special group with very stable lives to make that happen. In the real world in most places, even here on this site, characters aren't going to be played that long so the glacial pace of xp is something that often frustrates me greatly. It's disheartening to know going into a game that the character you create will never reach it's potential because the game will collapse long, long YEARS before ever reaching the epicness of the Q7s and such. Despite what some might think, there really are stories to be told in those power ranges, they just are stories that should not be relying much on dice, and when you have gamed together for 3+ years you should be able to trust each other and the ST to be working to make an enjoyable story. There is no 'I win, you lose' in RPG gaming, if it's advesarial then everyone is losing because no one is getting the great story that could have been told.

The result is that I think I have a tendency to try and make the characters as buff as I can make them going into a story since I know they will never get to the higher power levels and reach goals I have for them in my mind. I don't think I'm alone in this. I think many of us do it to one degree or another.

If you've stuck with my rambling this long you deserve the point of all this: My experiences have shaped the aspects of gaming that give me enjoyment, it also shaped the things that frustrate me with games. Each of us have had our own experiences from the extreme of VB and his keep it simple and F you if you don't like it style to Sky and his need to create the perfect character. None of us are wrong because this kind of gaming isn't about winning or losing, its all about enjoying the experience in whatever way works for you.

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Good Post, Fox.

I've been peeking in to this thread now and again, and I'd like to propose my own (half-formed) fix for Mastery.

Get rid of it.

Wait, hear me out. I fall into the school that believes that someone with more dots in something should be better than someone with fewer dots in the same thing. One of the things that annoyed me is: One guy spends the time working up to Armour 4 (36xp), and the other guy gets Armour 2 and slaps Mastery on it (16xp), which is just as good for less than half the value. That seems unfair, and that's not even looking at a power that uses the other aspects of Mastery. Btw, assume both guys reach Q6 at the same time, so there isn't any issue of who got what first.

Instead, let Novas buy dots in powers up to their Quantum rating. As dots increase beyond 5, the scope of power increases in certain respects. Crosstime Travel is 6 dots in Temporal Manipulation, Elemental Authority is 7 dots in Elemental Mastery, Consciousness Supremacy is 8 dots in Telepathy (or possibly Domination), Creation Ex Nihilo is 10 dots in Matter Creation, ect. Just increase the parameters gradually.

I haven't worked out the XP for the powers higher than 5 dots, so the multiplier after 5 dots might have to increase to stop people from getting them too quickly. If someone actually wants to 'Master' a power, have it have a wider ranging scope, let them work for it.

Just my two cents.

(Yes, I realize it would probably be more work, writing up tables for each power and what it does after 5 dots, but if there are kept relatively rare, then the players and ST can develop the ones they need, instead of all of them.)

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Originally Posted By: Mr Fox
and second I developed a habit of trying to make characters who could fill any role in the party. It was my own version of Sky's uber character syndrome.
HA!!! laugh I busted a gut when read this... No really, I hit the floor laughing, then it stopped being funny when I started laughing up dry blood, Then it was funny again when the blood stopped.

Gosh, I'm ZStIll giggilling. Anywho, thank you Fox for the RP history, I like it when peeps let me in on their gamming experiance since it let's me know them better... And it lets me know that I ain't alone in some of that good old crazyness that players and GM's/ST's and DM's will put you through.


Well, I guess it's my turn to be "revieling" with "The Story of My RPGing Life".
I've only been at GMing for 20 years now and it was Mostly Palladium stuff like NightSpawn, Rifts, Heroes Unlimited, TMNT, MacrossII, and Robotech but I've also run Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Cybergen, NightsEdge, Marvel FASERIP, Vamp:Masqu, Aberrant, and WW: Apock.
In all of this time I have had players promise to run me and never have done so more than a hand full of times and Never for more than 3 games. Add to that they always put me through the ringer with Meta-gaming, ULTRA M.D.C.-Munchkinism, Massive Min Maxing, Twinking, Stupidity of the worst kind, Annoying Rules Lawyering, Game Prosecutionism (The Opposet of Rules Lawyering) and All manor of bad.
Add to that; In game pervsion that gets out of the game, Fights, Racism (again, in And out of games), Girl players Hitting on me rather than bothering to play the game, Mass angst, 100's of cases of players playing the exact same kind of characters w/o any attempt to grow by trying something new (IE: I wanna play a Human Macross Mech pilot or I wanna always play an angsty Bishy-boy, or I wanna play... Fill in the blanks), or players that Never stick to a concept and want to switch/play/write-up new PC's every five minutes and, it has been a LONG HARD and generally Ungrateful road as a GM/ST/DM for me.

So, I gave up gaming fer the last few years (aka everyone bolted on me fer greener pastures cuz they saw that I had Lots the "Stuff". That was years ago now and No games have gotten anywhere and Everyone has avoided me like the plauge.

That was until about 6-months ago when the player, who was my Best and Only friend since childhood AND my brother in law (After I married his sister... always a No No- I know) who'd done the Most damage to me as a GM called me after 3+years. He called to say that he'd been 'stuck' running all the games since he and the 60+players I'd been running all took off. He said that the many groups had run him into the ground and torchered him sommin hard. He was calling to "ask for forgiveness" cuz he finally realized "what he and other had done to me was wrong". He was sorry.

SO, he said that he was scared to run me through a game but that he felt he owed me and that he wanted to make up fer all that stuff he put me through and that he thought I was the Bestest GM he'd had, and that he ruined a good thing by never keeping his word about running me through a single game. Turns out that everyone saw "How good a GM I was" and thought that I'd run ramped over their games cuz of it.

Turns out though, as I told my friend, I Never play Munchkin, Meta-gaming, Twickers or Lawyers OR min maxers JUST cuz of what I had to go through as a GM. I always perfered to play 'low-key' PC's that helped out the ST/GM/DM by Not going nutz cuz I knew how hard the GM's had it. So he asked me what I wanted to play and, I said that I had ALWAYS wanted have Someone, ANYONE, run me through at least One game of Aberrant ever since it came out... BUT that since I had Never gone Game Crazy I'd like to this time by Min-Maxing, Lawering, Munchkining, and Massive (what I thought was cheating) usage and abusing of the Merits/Flaws and Strengths/Weakness systems... Just once in my life.

He said yes and we played for 1HR, once every week or so, but only ONE day passed in game since I'd erupted...
Then he gave me my total EP... For one day in game... It came to 48EP!!!
Why, cuz he felt that I A)deserved it, B) In all of the Games he played here throught-out the West coast (WA, OR, ID, NV, CAL..etc) they all gave out Bulk EP each game, and C) cuz that IS in fact what the EP totaled out to in the end due to how the games were so broken up over 6 months.

Net result was for me...
I had Never played a Min/Maxed Munchkin before so, I just ended up playing him just like I would have played a weaker person (relaying on Creative use of skill rather than powers) and next of all I had SOOOO abused the M/Flaws system AND the Strength and Weakness system that I ended up with ALLOTTA really weak as He11 powers that ended up sucking badly...
Go figure!


The moral(s) of the story are that
A) Even if Others fail to continue running me through games, as long as THEY don't bone me too very much, or rake me over the fires, I will ALWAYS continue the Same game with the Same PC's (if they wish it) untill years have passed of real time and they feel that they have been fulfilled and theeir PC's got the chance they wanted to so as to grow out to Their potential.

B) I am NOT, nor have I ever been a great GM/ST/DM... I was just the only one that would GM/run Others local GMs through games since They were ruling over their Own groups, Thus they only really had me to run them and thus i sounded pretty cool compaired to the option of them Not having a GM...
And of that I was happy to be helpful.

C) Saying sorry to someone can go a long way to taking Others out of the dumps that you may never have known that you left them in.

D) RPing and art are pretty much my only thing... Well, that and Meat and Sarcasm. Yup, I'm just known as Steeler49er/El'jinn, the Meat and sarcasm guy.

E) Just because you think you're gonna be getting off good by cheating and using the Strength/Weakness rules, does not actually mean that you'll awlays come out on top... Since my PC is using them, SURE I have got some CrAzY and unique-ly weird looking powers but, in the end I just ended up giving away one ability and gaining another that I was less familiar with using. My PC looks pretty messed up (albeit interesting), and Sure I bent the rules quite a bit to make him work but, he's Not the power house one expected...
Guess I'm just not too very good at the whole 'Munchkin thing' after all. I should have watched how my players did it better.
Live and learn (to cheat that is).

F) I feel your pain about not getting to develop your PC's out to their fullest due to other bad players/gm's and low ep... But I will always try to be there for my players so that doesn't happen to them, thus is why I give out such low EP as per the books... Cuz otherwise my players will play fer Just the power and they end up sad that they never really got to fully explore their characters Full potential, which as it turns out was their personal growth as a person.

G) and IF in the end they just want the power... Yeah sure, I cut out the personal squishy touchy feely sht and Break-out the MEGA-XP and let them go all COSMIC nutz...
Cuz, after all, it IS just a game...
And the word 'GAME' should Equal=FUN!
And Aberrant is fun.

Yee Endith...





P.S...
We all love Sky on this end as well.
Cuz 'SkyLion' Equals="Break out the Aberrant RPG and let us have some Fun" as well. And so do you Fox, you equal fun as well.
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Thanks!

Just for the record I don't have an issue with Sky. Not to say that he didn't get on my nerves now and then with the Star Gate thing, but I don't have a problem with people wanting to enjoy the game in the way they enjoy it. We just need to be careful to mesh with what the others in the game are wanting as well. I know I've been guilty of that before also.

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Never crossed my mind that you and Sky had even a little issue. personally I like Sky allot. You, he and only a small handfull of others here on the boards are personable enough to chat with.

In other words, you're a likeble Chap.

(That's brittish talk fer dude :P)

Anywho, I was reading up on Gabrial Melchior to get an idea of what the shortest Reasonable time frame one should get from QR 5, to 6, to 7 in.

•The books listed him erupting in 2004 at a pressumed QR 5 after his car went off the road.

•He reaches QR6/taint 7 in 2006 due to way too much pushing of his powers (Extra Taint may have been from trying to reach QR6 too fast, or just as likely from Miss using "Rapid Recovery", which fits with his fluff text).

•In 2009 he is again pushing his powers (by force of other, rather than perpressure), this causes his to Re-erupt for a third time and reach QR7.

Given that he was Not intentionally/consciously trying to ever reach higher QR states, but likely rather he did it as a subconscious act, I would wonder how fast a Smart Nova who is aware of higher Quantum states (and who is in deep desire to reach one fast... w/o tainting to do it) would be able to do so in your game.

As above I went for [intended QRx4 monthes]. I thought that this was the likely okay story speed but, I'm still wondering if that sounds reasonable.

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So 28 months to Q7?

Nearly 2.5 years. I wouldn't have any problem with that at all. In fact depending on your playing frequency or generosity of xp dumps, it could happen faster than that. I could see getting to Q8 in 3 years. It really depends most on what your group wants. (I am talking OOC time here, not IC time.)

Reason I say this, is that I find most groups will want to move on to other games in that kind of time frame. As I talked about in my history above, it takes a special group to stick to a single game longer than 3 years; in my experience at least.

Some of the stories on this site are an exception, but even here the longest running ST games were mine and Jameson's which ran just over two years. DR looks like it will keep going, but only one original character is left I think that was there at the beginning, all others are newer and have only been playing a year and a half or less I believe. The Open Worlds are an exception, but even there many of the characters come and go over time. If you look at the games on the site most have folded pretty quickly, some last about a year and just die of apathy because we have Magpie syndrome. Someone announces a new game idea and everyone flocks to the new shiny leaving the old game to flounder because everyone's energy and interest has been captured by the newer game. This is one reason I've got no problem giving out big xp rewards in my games on this site. The reality is the games won't last long enough even with my big rewards to get up into the Q7 and Q8 ranges. DR might be an exception since new players have joined the game pretty steadily over time and Dawn's is a good ST, but at the rate XP is given there no one will ever hit those Q ratings even if she allowed it which I don't think would happen.

I guess, part of what I'm saying is that the talk of Mastery 2 and 3, and Q7 and Q8 are almost a moot point since no game here has hit those levels (I don't count the original open world since there were no rules to it and you could create your character however you wanted.). The only one that I've ever been in that might have a chance is MCoH with it's 20 xp per month, and it started out allowing Q6.

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Humpf...

Based on last weeks game not even happening (They want to play the Rifts game of all things) I may have to go with your assesmt of high EP doll-outs after all. They are Very pampered in their other games and add to that the fact that they are seeming to be ALLOT more fickle (Jumping from game to game to mmorpg to mmorpg and on) than when I used to run them, this may be prudent.

If I just take a look at how my Aberrant game went (One hour every saturday for 6 months), I Never got anywhere and only a day passed In game... But the ST totalled up my EP and I got 45+!!! Yikes I told him, I should only have 6 Tops as Only one day had past. He said that my RPing was "exemplary on every level" and that I deserves it...

I said "Yeah! Of course I'm RPing great, that's because I'm RPing MYSELF as Nova... How hard can that be?". tHen he told me about the ultra high EP awards he gets in other WW games and Now I can see I should do the same fer him and This gaming crew, or else they may never grow.

Danka fer that advice FOX.

And sorry fer the bad spelling, but I just awoke. And I stayed up to late last night.

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Yeah, that's one thing that has frustrated me about games. I don't care about how much time passes IC, I give out xp based on actual play. So what if only one day has passed in game, if you've put 6 months of effort into RPing that character then it deserves 6 months of xp reward not 1 day's reward. I know others here will disagree with me on that, but that's how I feel and it's one of my frustrations with some of the games I've participated in.

The up side is that everyone gets to run their game based on how they want to run it and no one way is right. What is right for me might not be for someone else and that's fine. It just means I shouldn't participate in those games, or that I should accept going in that there will be little or no mechanical growth over long periods of real time.

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Originally Posted By: Mr Fox
DR might be an exception since new players have joined the game pretty steadily over time and Dawn's is a good ST, but at the rate XP is given there no one will ever hit those Q ratings even if she allowed it which I don't think would happen.

Just to clarify, Q6 is allowed already, with some caveats that are linked to the world setting. Q7 will be allowed soonish, probably when I do my next bump. I plan to allow Q10 by the end of things.

However, I'm not allowing Mastery. Even if it were appropriate for DR (which it so isn't) I don't like the power as written, so I don't allow it. I did once, and it ruined the game. Given that Q6 has restrictions on it, and no Mastery, I've had no PCs tell me they were interested in it. I think that speaks volumes about power-ramping and what people value in the higher Qs.

Of course, if all my PCs come here and say, "But I didn't know!!!!" I'll have to start beating people. laugh
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LOL!

I agree. I think mastery is one of the biggest attractions to higher Q ratings. I'm also not too fond of Mastery 2 and 3 but if since you can't even get 2 until Q8 it's really not a big deal I think.

Still, mastery isn't the be all end all of going to the higher levels. With Elspeth in MCoH, I'd like her to get to Q8, but that's because of what I want her to accomplish. That is a game about what happens leading up to the Aberrant war, and for Elspeth that means taking her people to safety, ie finding another planet to settle on. Which in turn means she'd try to develop powers like geological supremacy and ecological supremacy. I couldn't see her purchasing Mastery 2 on anything though since that would just be pure cheese.

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I've run Aberrant once, a friend of mine once. From starter 30pt characters to Q6 Mastery types.

Introduction of Mastery brought about destruction of the game. And if it doesn't do the same in your game you're probably ignoring half of the rules involved in Mastery and Extras.

If you have the Area extra on a power that's always on. If you have a range of 100 kilometers and you miss that power is going to go for 100 kilometers until it hits someone or passes far enough along the curve of the earth to not be a problem.

If you have an Area or Explosion extra on a damage power and you have Mastery you wipe out cities with your first k'boom.

Mastery is a mistake and one of the many examples of how little White Wolf gave a damn about the game when they released the player's guide.

Oh, and IMO, if you believe that PCs should ALWAYS be cooler/better/more special/etc than NPCs I think you need some help with your self-esteem. I have no problem with the idea that the characters should be cool, a lot of us play out of some sort of fantasy-fulfillment need. But always? Bullshit. That way leads to bad stories.

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I agree with you about the APG, WW was definitely phoning it in when they published that thing. It's one of the worst organized collections of stuff I've every seen. It's like they had this file full of rules corrections and additions and just handed it to a high school kid or summer intern and said put it together. I got better work out of most of my journalism students back when I taught school.

I will give them this one bit of credit... it IS a mishmash of junk so there is only so much organization you could do, but even so I think they did a piss poor job.

As for mastery, I mostly agree with you on that too, but like I said previously, when you get to the higher Q ratings I view that stuff more as a framework for what the characters are capable of more than a set of rules on how many dice you should be rolling.

In any game I run, Mastery is by ST approval only. Some powers with mastery would destroy a game. If it was a game of espionage and intrigue and you stuck Mastery on your Telepathy 5 giving you the ability to spy on anyone's thoughts on the planet without a chance to be resisted, that would end it.

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The problem with mastery is that it's cannon. I don't mean the power itself in the APG, I mean all those throw away lines in *Trinity*.

*One* Nova makes *one* mistake and destroys Florida/The Op-net/Something-else-as-big.

Yes, it's a game breaker. But with *that* as the cannon background, it's supposed to be.

Mastery leads to some stupid kid making a mistake and destroying a large city (probably New York) and instantly resulting in the Abby War (Marvel Civil War anyone?). If you the ST don't want to deal with that (and there's a ton of arguments why you shouldn't), then don't allow it. But if you want to run a cannon game where the PCs have the option of doing this, then that's the tool for it.

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Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC
Originally Posted By: Mr Fox
DR might be an exception since new players have joined the game pretty steadily over time and Dawn's is a good ST, but at the rate XP is given there no one will ever hit those Q ratings even if she allowed it which I don't think would happen.

Just to clarify, Q6 is allowed already, with some caveats that are linked to the world setting. Q7 will be allowed soonish, probably when I do my next bump. I plan to allow Q10 by the end of things.
QR 7, and 10... I Never saw that coming.
I Only ever wanted Mastery I in the game I play so as to double my Molecular Mastery Die Pool... That way I can Mold more than 10Kg per success! Then I'd be able to Mold 20kg per succ. My PC likes sulpting stuff.
That and I get to reduce my powers high cost down from 3 to 2 QP... It's expensive to use.
FYI-My power has no range (touch) so the Range mastery option is useless to me.


Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC
Of course, if all my PCs come here and say, "But I didn't know!!!!" I'll have to start beating people. laugh
I knew you'd allowed it, and I ain't even In your Zombie game. I just read your bulletin.
Awsome game (Like Zombie meets X-men Fan fiction)
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Originally Posted By: El'Jinn Uu
QR 7, and 10... I Never saw that coming.
I Only ever wanted Mastery I in the game I play so as to double my Molecular Mastery Die Pool... That way I can Mold more than 10Kg per success! Then I'd be able to Mold 20kg per succ. My PC likes sulpting stuff.
That and I get to reduce my powers high cost down from 3 to 2 QP... It's expensive to use.
FYI-My power has no range (touch) so the Range mastery option is useless to me.

See, that's part of the issue I have. PCs always have a reason for Mastery, that usually starts with "I only want Mastery because..." and usually sounds not-at all game-breaking. I'm not saying that it should never be allowed or that you're not justified in wanting it; only that your remark would not sway me as a storyteller one bit. There are other ways to get RQC, even for a level 3 power, that don't involve Mastery. Just getting Q6, for starters. That doesn't help doubling the sux, but that's one of the dumbest rules ever, in my opinion.

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC
I knew you'd allowed it, and I ain't even In your Zombie game. I just read your bulletin.
Awsome game (Like Zombie meets X-men Fan fiction)

Thanks! Glad you're enjoying it. smile
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Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

See, that's part of the issue I have. PCs always have a reason for Mastery, that usually starts with "I only want Mastery because..." and usually sounds not-at all game-breaking. I'm not saying that it should never be allowed or that you're not justified in wanting it; only that your remark would not sway me as a storyteller one bit. There are other ways to get RQC, even for a level 3 power, that don't involve Mastery. Just getting Q6, for starters. That doesn't help doubling the sux, but that's one of the dumbest rules ever, in my opinion
No... really. I ment it when I said that about the Double sux. See, My favorite aspect of MM is the Molding power, But it's Really weak. To create/mold/shape a 10 ton (about a 5x5x5ft block) chunk of granite into modern art would take me anaverage of 333 uses of the power and cost me 1,000QP! Which at an average of [Node2]+[4QP for rest] equals 6QP per hour or 166 Hours of work (That's one week)!

But With Mastery I, At the Very least I could cut that down to about 167 power uses, and with the included RQP aspect of mastery it costs 2QP per use instead of 3QP. Now it would cost me 335 QP+/- and take me only 55 hours (lil over two days) to create the statue.

As is, just by reaching (as you said) QR 6, that allows me to by One extra at almost no cost and still keep MM at the level it was, Plus I could by an extra that Bumps the level of MM to L4!
So, since it's there... Heck yes I'm gona wanna cheat and buy Mastery One...
Well... When I reach QR6 in a few more years of game play that is... frown

But hey, at the New average rate of 4E per game, and playing once per month, I'll easily get there in 40months from now! (just under three years)
Boo-Yah!

In the mean Time, I'm just gonna mold the out sides of stone and metal (Less work... Almost the same effect).
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Originally Posted By: El'Jinn Uu
My favorite aspect of MM is the Molding power, But it's Really weak. To create/mold/shape a 10 ton (about a 5x5x5ft block) chunk of granite into modern art would take me anaverage of 333 uses of the power and cost me 1,000QP! Which at an average of [Node2]+[4QP for rest] equals 6QP per hour or 166 Hours of work (That's one week)!
Try Elemental Anima or Mastery if you want to do this sort of thing.

Shaping (page 194) has an area of "Special" and a Duration of "Maintenance", and we know Tremor can use it to create islands with Elemental Mastery: Earth and some Teen2M guy can use it to create superhard ice statues.

The confusing part is it says "No more than (three cubic meters of the element x power rating) can be affected at once."

It's implied, *strongly* that "at once" means "per action" and not "per quantum expenditure" (otherwise the duration would be instant and not maintenance.

So in theory someone with Elemental Mastery: Stone could crank out statues at an absurd rate without spending much juice.
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Because who wants to take time and do the work, right? As a nova everything in the cosmos should be handed to you...

It took Michelangelo 4 years to paint the Sistine Chapel. Anything a nova could do, regardless of successes, would pale in comparison to such a work. He did it with time, talent, and perseverance. Those are things novas don't have. They rely on their quantum as a means of taking the easy route and getting their way now instead of working hard accepting the fruits of their labor later.

That's not only my opinion but fact based on how I see 90% of players play their novas (both here and at the table). The think quantum is the perfect solution to any situation. It's kinda sad.

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Quote:


That's not only my opinion but fact based on how I see 90% of players play their novas (both here and at the table). The think quantum is the perfect solution to any situation. It's kinda sad.


I think you are absolutely right about this, but I also think that is actually a theme of the game and true to human nature. I think it is exactly what real novas would do if novas existed. Not saying it's right, just that it 'is'. Also, I think you are right in the implication as well, that a nova that didn't rely solely on their quantum would have an advantage over one that did given two otherwise equal novas.
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Originally Posted By: El'Jinn Uu
No... really. I ment it when I said that about the Double sux. See, My favorite aspect of MM is the Molding power, But it's Really weak. To create/mold/shape a 10 ton (about a 5x5x5ft block) chunk of granite into modern art would take me anaverage of 333 uses of the power and cost me 1,000QP! Which at an average of [Node2]+[4QP for rest] equals 6QP per hour or 166 Hours of work (That's one week)!

You're quibbling over the fact that it would take a full week to do a 5x5x5 statue? You know what? You've swayed me. You should get mastery so that you can do it in two days. It's not enough that you make something in one week that would outshine anything it would take a baseline months to do, you need to have it in two days. I have seen the error of my ways.
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Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC
You're quibbling over the fact that it would take a full week to do a 5x5x5 statue? You know what? You've swayed me. You should get mastery so that you can do it in two days. It's not enough that you make something in one week that would outshine anything it would take a baseline months to do, you need to have it in two days. I have seen the error of my ways.

As well you should! Shame on you Dawn! wink
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??? frown

Ummm, k

Im sorry... I didnt know that what I said was offensive so as to illicit such harsh responces and near accusations of cheating.

Never mind the Mastery already. If by me taking it is such an issue then heck, its not really something i need.

It always did seem to me that taking the None violant and more aristic classes (or character builds) in games tended to be so much more trouble thsn they are ever worth.

Listen, I like roleplaying characters and all but, I'm getting kind of tired of all the (when you play this game or that game, its ALL about the RP").

Heck, im just gonna cut this Aberrant game loose and ask to play a hack and slasher with mega attributes that can slaughter tens of thousands of peeps in an instant and canlevel buildings... Then I wont have to worry about being called a power gamer or "too powerful" for having the powers to create and distroy cities in an instant, and rather choosing mold a statue instead over a few days time.

This RP stuff is Way to innane.

And if Im gonna get butt rammed over being Lazy for wanting to create modern art in half the time of a baseline, or getting hammed for darring to rely on nova powers over mundane baseline powers of sculpting (like asthough it is always somehow Game Breaking), then ill do something Actually fun that can cause MASSIVE damage and where I get to play a None wuss who is for Once powerful.

Im just gonna max out on mega stats and invulnerability, or mindraping powers like telepathy, or take TK and play cosmic pool even at low levels. All this Trying to play better/pc never sees me grow, and if im just gonna get to QR6 and Only have reduced QR to show fer all my troubles (still end up with a power that costs me 1QP to use) than i guess ill go with the TK power house and be the bad guy for once by popping heads for 0QP! (RQCx2)

After, why play the good guy or nonviolant artist, when ya just get hassled for it? RPing sucks and so does playing the whimp when you get hassled if you wanna sculpt a dragon statue or a tree. Blah...

TK and villiany is where the Real power is. People who play that stuff Never get hasseled.

Plus, I think I Will try for Mastery and higher QRs with this dude, and none of that hemmed down (im not gonna use it to cheat stuff) stuff Ive been looking forwards to trying out. Im gonna take Mastery at full power and have some F.U.N.

Itll rock. Just gotta come up with a good name is all. I wonder why people ever Do try and be good in the first place. Its not like you gain anything from it anyhow, and peeps come down Way harder on good guys when they do anything the people dont like than yhey do the bad guys. Plus the bad guys always get all of the good stuff and Dont have jerks that could careless if you truly died, always asking for you to do stuff for them for free, or even better is in return for the Continued worthless adoration of some fair-weather fans.

Blah.

In fact, i think ill join the Teragen too. Id always hated their anti human attitudes but, face it, humans are assholes with Nothing Truly valueble to offer (although theyll always profess otherwise.

Got it...

Hows about Ghost Black! That sounds perddy Swanky. IIIIIIIIII like it. Buwa ha ha. So okay, TK, got that... But since Im a bad guy now, I'am free to use Weaknesses as much as I like so, I'll just reduce the duration down to one turn (since I'm Not a good guy out to save peeps from burning buildings and who needs long durations of TK to help move buildings off of people after eathquakes), And since I'm only in it for the Kill Effect. That'll dip the cost to buy TK down to that of a level one power [5NP to Buy]. That leaves me with 25NP.

Invulnerability to both KE & ENERGY, thats 15NP left. 3 on ATTS and 3 on skillz. And some on MegaDex.

It's about time I Just played fer the FUN and not that angsty elitits RP crap. So I'ma gonna goofy around with this with this super.

Way better than a looser sculpter good-for-nothing that takes a week to do with his useless powers what normal Human baselines can do in the same time frame... Yeesh.

Originally Posted By: Courier
He said "modern art", not "the Sistine Chapel". wink
Thank you smile

But, like I'm saying up above, I'm gonna try something new for once and play a munchkin (Never done it before, sounds fun) wish me luck.

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Originally Posted By: El'Jinn Uu
...I'm gonna try something new for once and play a munchkin...
If you really want to kill people, Poison+Area is probably the way to go. Go to a football game and powermax for "Extra Range" (line of sight). It doesn't even need to be "people" either, you can destroy crops and the like too.

Originally Posted By: El'Jinn Uu
...wish me luck.
Good luck.
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heh. He has a point.

With the Fast Tasks enhancement a nova can do in a fraction of the time what a human can do at normal rates. Carving a statue that would take a human months? A nova with Fast Tasks could do it in days or hours. The precedent is there and for a very very low cost; a mere 6xp, or 3 NP, or half that if bought tainted. Compared to mastery's 23 xp + the cost of Q6, I would expect it to be impressive and reduce the time it takes. So what if the nova is already doing his sculpture with his MM faster than a human artist.

I'm an engraver (hobby), takes a hand engraver like me days or even weeks to do a complicated project. There are machines that can laser engrave things in minutes that it takes me days to do. There is a price difference though. My work would sell for much more than the laser engraved piece. The two might be equally beautiful, hell the laser engraved one would be technically perfect, but it would lack soul. People who care about such things and collect it for the art it is, wouldn't buy the machine produce piece even though it might be 'better' because the machine piece isn't art.

I'm not saying the nova produced sculpture isn't art. With enhancements like Artistic Genius and mega-wits, it might be among the most beautiful and artistic scupltures on the planet and command mega bucks. But... in a way, it wouldn't be as impressive as something a human did the old fashioned way. Elspeth has mega-cha 5, and has mega wits with artistic genius. She puts that to use writing speeches to inspire her people and garner the sympathy of the world to her cause, but just because she is able to make speeches that leave her audience in tears or with hope, doesn't take away the achievements of the humans who came before her like the founding fathers and their "Give me liberty or give me death!", or Henry V and his Saint Crispin's day speech.

Now, I'm not saying Dawn should allow Mastery into her game even for a power that is only to be used for creating art. It's her game and she can do with it what she will, just as I will do with my games what I will. On the other hand, I can definitely see where El is coming from. I've been in a number of games where I tried to play crafter characters and got all kinds of shit from the ST's over the things my character would try to create that didn't effect game balance when those same STs wouldn't blink over the fighther/wizard type taking power combos that would level whole city blocks.

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El, you missed the entire point of my post. I'll make it super-simple for you.

You don't want your PC to have to work for something.

I don't know if that's what you mean to say, but that's the message I get when I hear "but then it'll take me two days to create master art!" Why shouldn't your PC have to work for something? Why can't they struggle and toil for seven days instead of two? Your character can already whip ass on his sculpting skills; why does he have to do it so damned fast, too? I really don't understand that.

I appreciate that you want to create an artist rather than tripping out the latest numbers-wrenching combat combo that can PWN everything. Having dealt with both, I can say I like neither more than the other. I love Mala's twisted PCs who are often a little hamstrung for RP reasons. I love Cent's efficient builds.

Now, why did I single those two out (though I should add that they aren't the only ones who do what I'm about to mention, only the two that seem most different)? Because while they have dynamically opposite styles of PCs, they also have themes. They don't consider a power unless its part of the character. They don't buy skills past certain points because it isn't right for their PCs. And they don't buy Mastery just to be faster at what they do unless its in theme for the PC.

Is your guy the Speedy Gonzalez of the art world? Then take Fast Tasks. Is he supposed to be able to manipulate massive amounts of stone? Then EM or EA. There's no need to have Mastery to get the same (or better) effects. And if being super-fast is in your PC's theme, then don't rattle off the numerical advantage of having something that is the cheesiest way to get power in the game. Theme can incorporate numerical advantages, but it shouldn't be the first thing mentioned in a conversation.

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Originally Posted By: Courier
Originally Posted By: El'Jinn Uu
...I'm gonna try something new for once and play a munchkin...
If you really want to kill people, Poison+Area is probably the way to go. Go to a football game and powermax for "Extra Range" (line of sight). It doesn't even need to be "people" either, you can destroy crops and the like too.
eekGak!!!
I hadn't even considered something that simple (and yet creative)...
Man... I Suck at this bad guy stuff something fierce!! All I have ever played is super EMS workers at best, I just lack the creative edge so, I didn't even realize you could do this with poison. I've Got to add that to my next game since I Still haven't gotten around to nailing the parties Main villian down, and I've tried to not let them know that fact). Courier, you are a mad genius. Danka wink
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And dawn, you Are correct that (after a couple of years in game And real time) I had hoped that my character would get faster with age, and that I considered QR6 and Mastery to be a kind of 'Pay-off' or goal, an Acheivement like in a video game for hard work. I just had never even considered how much faster and efficiant it could have been if I had taken EA instead.

Doopy me but, I'm a newb player (I only ST, never Actually play) so I'm not to efficant at it yet.

And the art that my character was hoping to make was the cheap stuff you put in malls, outside of coffie shops, town halls and on lawns. I wanted to go into business by mass producing the stuff as my characters Thing.

But as the game has now slowed down to 1HR, once every other week (if that), AND I keep getting caught up in weird combat situations (Hunted by Utopia, A Mad scientist, and played around with by my dreaded enemies the Teragen), at this rate I'm just Not having any fun anyways...

Being New to the Whole RPing supers thing, as All I have everplayed out fully are normal humans, I usually end up playing Superhumans that the ST/GM would like to get rid of becuase they feel that I should 'Stay human' while everyone else plays the supers (can't tell you how manytimes I have LOST all of my powers shortly into a game due to poison, nanotech, or permanent power-negation). Once playing a (Pregnant) Mage girl in Rifts I got blasted in half by a partical beam weapon after just 1hr of play!

Yeah, the GM shot me Right in the womb!!!

WHY I ask... WHY?

Cuz I was playing Smarter than the other players who Jumped at the enemy in a suit Freaking GlitterBoy power armor while his lessers (all well armed) were pegging us with PBeams. I said Let's take Them out first, but the players kept going after the Glit, which has 700MDC, with lasers! This went on untill whipped out most of my mana and cast the spell 'Phobia' on the GB. Despit the guy being in armor that offered him nearly no chance of being affected by the spell, he rolled Very low and the GM had ruled him affected. The players thought I was Stupid for not helping by casting 'anouther' 1D6 damage fire ball spell and holding up the game to go over things with the GM over a stupid usless spell. When asked what phobia I was going for, I said Claustrophobia!

The GB-Pilot stopped everthing and jumped out of armor freaking out. The players (realizing what had happened) shot the guy in the head. Hoping that this would FINALLY get the players to realize that the Minions were the Real threat, and with the GB out of the way, the players would fight smarter.

Nope

They all started fighting over WHO GOT the shiny new armor, all while Still under fire.

The GM did NOT like how I had used the spell so creatively and in a way that he had never considered possible. The players liked my creativity cuz it got them New armor, but the ST argued that he didn't like that because he felt it was too game imbalancing and that it

"Didn't feel right".

Then (Somehow) after we/I Finally killed all of the NPC villians and we were walking away, ONE of the dead guys on the ground managed to raise up his PBeam and fire it at me out of "Revenge"! I argued that I had the spell "Impervious to Energy" up and that I was uneffected. He/the GM, argued that Partical beams are Not normal energy and it somehow bypassed the spell. I argued that I had magical Armor (AoI) up as well. He argued that it was powerful enough to go through.

Later one (Master Buck) of the players told me that the reason why i got blasted was because the GM thought I was too powerful and he felt that I needed to go. And that is just one of many stories like this.

See, I have always Been the GM/ST and players think that "Based on how Creative he is at That, I'm afraid to have him actually Play the game"... 15 years of that got old fast and, now after 5 years of me being retired from gaming, I'm finally in one and trying to get past all of the violant aspects of the plot.

I have No problem with a Nova being able to create modern art (even the good stuff) in a week, and Once i had reach near GODHOOD at QR6, I should have been a match in power with heavy hitters like Pax... Only as an artist.

But this game is taking Way to long and after 20 years of Gaming (Yes, I started late in the RP game), I think that i should just cut loose and do something crazy. In fact, that is what This present character Was intended to be, and Again I ended up trying to turn him into a strait RP man. This is my only chance to play and I Should be powerplaying, yet I'm Sucking at it.

If I had taken Matter Manip With out the range reduction weakness, I could have been pretty Nasty in combat (Melting or blowing stuff up at range), but I didn't. IN FACT, If I just use the Main ability of MM [Molecular Alteration-Technique] I can turn parts of that said aforementioned Stone I worked with into silly putty or scilpting clay, I could EASYILY make the Same exact art in a day or so.

But I didn't want to because, even I thought that was Way to easy.

Let's face it, weaknesses and flaws Seem like cheating (which is what I Thought I was going to be doing) but when you are still inlined to Not cheat, you just end up limiting yourself W/O the ST telling you to do so. And frankly, lastnight my ST said that he was sick of me doing that cuz he Thought this was going to be my first ever Cut-Loose PC... And he thinks I'm doing it all wrong.

So he has suggested that Maybe I may have More fun if I go all DBZ in the game and take a powerhitter. I Still do not like the idea but... Who knows, I May end-up liking it.

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Quote:
Listen, I like roleplaying characters and all but, I'm getting kind of tired of all the (when you play this game or that game, its ALL about the RP").
Heck, im just gonna cut this Aberrant game loose and ask to play a hack and slasher with mega attributes that can slaughter tens of thousands of peeps in an instant and canlevel buildings... Then I wont have to worry about being called a power gamer or "too powerful" for having the powers to create and distroy cities in an instant, and rather choosing mold a statue instead over a few days time.

This RP stuff is Way to innane.


Quote:
See, I have always Been the GM/ST and players think that "Based on how Creative he is at That, I'm afraid to have him actually Play the game"... 15 years of that got old fast and, now after 5 years of me being retired from gaming, I'm finally in one and trying to get past all of the violant aspects of the plot.

So... you don't think RP is a good idea... and you don't think conflict (combat) is a good idea...

What kinda game do you play?

Most any RPG is one or the other and the really good ones are both.

And, in a way, I can agree with your GM. Sometimes a GM wants you to play the game and go through the story. Not everything requires that someone out there thinks up something new and exciting for every object during every encounter. It'd irritate me too. Killing the PC might have been a bit extreme, but a my table I love it when characters come up with ideas that make things fun and interesting. When they start to slow down my game, or begin to irritate me with their ideas I let them know that it's time to shelf the creativity for a bit just play. If they argue, they learn where the door is.
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You're welcome. smile

And as long as we're talking about creative ways to make things, much underrated are Claws (or Claws+Aggravated). Define them as "Temporarily liquefying whatever you touch" or something like that.

Out of combat you pay for Claws per scene, so juice isn't an issue. In theory you could take a bank vault door and, over the course of a scene (with Aggravated or enough M-Str), do enough "damage" to it so it's no longer a bank vault door.

What happens to it after that is just a special effect, and special effects are both free and player defined. Fire would melt it (etc), but if you're liquefying it and then (with the help of Fast Tasks and Artistic Genius) molding it, then I don't see why you couldn't shape it into whatever art-ish object you want (assuming the ST agrees).

Moving back on topic, most ST's don't like Mastery because of the "destroys cities with a botch" potential. If that's not what you want, then there are normally non-Mastery ways of doing things.

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Originally Posted By: Courier
Moving back on topic, most ST's don't like Mastery because of the "destroys cities with a botch" potential.

With a botch? You can not turn off Extras Courier. That means that when you use any power with an Area, Explosion, Burning, etc... that it always works and destroys everything in the specified area.

You can't pull your punch on an Extra'd power. If it has the potential to wipe out 4 miles of area, then every time you use that power, 4 miles of area is gone.
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That's actually something I've never understood. Doesn't make logical sense to me. If you know a power, say Qbolt 4, and you add the extra Area, why couldn't you continue to use it as a regular Qbolt at will. You've known how for ages, and you've 'improved' your power by adding something to it, but that shouldn't mean that you suddenly forget how to do what you've always been able to do. Just doesn't make sense.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying you are wrong about the rules Rev, I'm saying the rules themselves don't make any sense to me in this respect.

Now if you bought that power from the beginning with Area, then I could understand it. I guess that in a game I was running I'd house rule it in that you could choose not to employ the extra. That is unless someone can explain it to me in such a way that it would make more sense.

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Even if you bought the power from the beginning, it doesn't make any sense. Using my own PC for an example, his Q-bolt does [8]+4d10. He can drop that down to a mere 1d10 before he fires it. But, according to Rev, he can't make it any smaller than 25m radius. I can see putting some limits on it for thematic or cinematic purposes, but no reason why you couldn't pull your punch with an extra like that.

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Originally Posted By: Courier
And as long as we're talking about creative ways to make things, much underrated are Claws (or Claws+Aggravated).

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox
LOL! That makes me want to create a bank robbing artist who leaves beautiful statues as his mark. grin

Been done, sorta. laughCarver

grin
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Originally Posted By: Dave ST
With a botch?...
There are other powers that let you destroy cities, the ST presumably allows them to be used (and if he doesn't then he can say no up front). But with Mastery *sooner* *or* *later* you will destroy a city. It's not a matter of *if*, it's a matter of *when*.

And it's not just "botch" as in "one bad roll". It's "botch" as in "one player screw up". Even with Poison+Area you have to work to murder millions of people. The ST and probably the players have warning. With Mastery one blown roll or misjudgment and poof. You're always juggling nukes all the time.

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC
Been done, sorta.
wink
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