41 replies to this topic

[jameson (ST)]

Press Release Here

This comes barely a week after GR announced that they will be putting out a series of books for a DCU RPG starting in late summer.

[Chosen]

Wow, has it really been 8 years since the first edition of Mutants and Masterminds was released?

Are there specific things that people that use that system would like to see improved?

[jameson (ST)]

I've not been playing long enough for a laundry list but the two things that stand out are:

Kibosh or fix the Jack of All Trades feat.  Its stupid broken as it is.

Grappling could use some help, its a little overly complex given the way the rest of the combat rules are.

[SalmonMax]

The system is a bit vulnerable to "one unlucky roll" syndrome when it comes to making Toughness saves. Two guys of equal point values and comparable power...but if one rolls a 1 or 2 on his damage save, and bam...fight over.

Granted you can use Hero Points to mitigate that somewhat, but it'd be nice if the damage system somehow emphasized 'deterioration over time' better. I realize that repeated hits degrade your damage save bonus, but what I mean is the vulnerability one has to getting a bad roll that turns a cool knock-down drag-out brawl into an anticlimax.

[Mike OOC]

I'm certainly interested.  The leap from 1st to 2nd was fairly radical, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some big changes.

[Justin OOC]

and I was just getting comfortable with 2e

[jameson (ST)]

Behold the sexiness of Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition - DC Adventures Hero's Handbook

  

This will be published as a stand alone game but the rules are identical in every way to M&M 3rd Ed. making it (and its statted characters) fully compatible with the new version of the game.

[SalmonMax]

I heard that Superman is only PL15 in these rules.

It makes me curious as to what the power curve is, as PL 15 in 2nd Ed, while significantly above 'normal' heroes, isn't really the epic power one generally associates with DC's heaviest hitter...

[Dave ST]

Well they did have to nerf him awhile back.  Maybe it's post crisis Superman...

Not that is matters, Batman could be PL 5 and can still beat him anyway.

[jameson (ST)]

I assume that you are referring to the PL caps for damage/toughness and such rather than the PL:PP ratio which usually flies right out the window with NPC write ups.

I know that they are trying to write up the heroes and villains in such a way that the "classic core" of the character is there.  Superman has been all over the map in terms of power from back when he showed up and didn't fly and was strong but not epically so to the other extreme where he could move planets and snuff stars.  

Its also hard to tell what PL 15 will mean without first knowing what the baseline will be.  If the "just human" characters like Green Arrow, Batman, Joker, etc. only end up statted at PL 8 then 15 for Superman may work out.  Time will tell and if I can predict anything accurately is is that in the end fans will argue about the stats of the characters regardless.

[SalmonMax]

Excellent points to both Dave and Jameson.

And arguing is half the fun!

[Mike OOC]

Batman's superpower is that the writer is on his side.  This extends to the GM, who lets him peek at the monster's sheets.

I mean, come on.  He's a broody recluse who lives in his parent's basement.  Of course he's a gamer.

[jameson (ST)]

Aquaman, from the upcoming DC Adventures book (the first launch of M&M 3rd Edition):

http://grfiles.game-host.org/3e_files/DCAPreview_01.pdf

[Jeremy Noctis]

Just thought it should be mentioned, the DC Adventures book appears to be out. People's thoughts, if any?

[jameson (ST)]

I've had the digital version for close to a month now.  Haven't played with the new rules yet (but then they are pretty much the old rules as far as combat) but I've worked up character's for a game I'm going to run.  In general pricing has been adjusted so that IMO at the same number of points character's are going to be a little less capable and thus have more to look forward to with PPs.  

The biggest changes (actual changes not terminology changes) are the Attributes (8 now), Skills (only ~12 now), and power building.  Powers are no longer even a little bit prebuilt, instead they take the Ultimate Power approach of giving you a bunch of effects and allow you to build the powers you want by combining effects, modifiers, and descriptors.  This is nothing new but it see it in the core rules is a nice change.  

The effects list has some big changes as well.  Gone are the unpteen stun/dazzle/paralyze/confuse/ect powers and instead there is a single "Affliction" effect with a myriad of well balance choices for the 3 possible levels of failure.  Want to paralyze somebody with Atemi pressure points?  Affliction (fortitude save) (hindered/ immobile/helpless) .. translation 1/2 speed, 0 speed, defenseless and immobile.  Want to blind somebody with a psychic attach?  Affliction (Will save) (impaired/disabled/unaware) ... translation -2 to checks with that sense, -5 to checks, completely unable to use that sense.  Mind Control? Affliction (Will) (Dazed/Compelled/Controlled), etc etc its the most drastic change to the game but also hailed as one of the best.  

The DC veneer is just that, its clearly a set of generic rules that the DC artwork and polish has been added to with the only real DC content being a chapter on the DC Universe(s) and another with 28 of the biggest heroes and villains.  Superman, Darkseid, Bats, the Joker, etc. All were chosen because of their star status (I barely read DC and I think only 1 of the villains was foreign to me and none of the heroes), but equally all show off the diverse nature of the PL system (ranging from a PL 8 Robin to the PL 16 Darkseid) as well as the various ways that the system can make characters.  Hell just seeing how very different Robin (PL 8), Nightwing (PL 10), and Batman (PL 12) are is a nice touch to show you how diverse the same basic character archetype can be within the rules.

Overall I'd say its largely a step in the right direction and an improvement in general.  The nitpicks I have are either minor (they still haven't made Charisma/Presence point balanced) or easily fixed (I can slow healing times down easily enough and break the skills up or require specializations), and the positive changes are significant to say the least.

[jameson (ST)]

Had a chance to play a little last week.  I was teaching new people so it was hardly a stress test for the rules but it by the end of the afternoon they clearly had a grasp on how things worked so teach-ability isn't a problem.  

Overall I like that there is a clearly defined degrees of success and failure in DCA/3E defined by increments of 5 from the DC.  This works well and when you apply a circumstance modifier (now limited to +2 or +5 for minor/major advantages and disads) you know that you are are basically adding/removing half or 1 full degree.  Combat runs quickly, as it did in 2nd ed.  The new dazed condition hurts a great deal less than 2E stunned and makes for a more fun combat as you can't suffer from "stun lock".  The 1 time free recovery maneuver is also nice as it encourages extra effort be used.  This is especially true since fatigue is now only a speed reduction and imposes no other penalties.  You can basically get 2 free stunts/extra efforts per combat which is nice.  

Negative changes are the single damage track. Gone is the lethal/nonlethal split and I may house rule that back in some form.  The other thing I don't care for is healing times.  This is a matter of taste and the fact that I don't run a lot of 4-color type supers games.  Healing is automatic on a per minute basis with long term wounds being considered a complication (and thus garnering the wounded a HP).  I'm sure this works for a Justice League game but it doesn't work for a vigilante/spec. ops. type game.

Overall I find 3E to be full of steps forward and only a few missteps.

[metaphysician]

OTOH, the change to how Impervious works is just plain a bad idea.  Its now nerfed to the point of uselessness.

[Jordan]

I actually prefer the Impervious change.  I always hated that a PC could render him/herself completely immune to even the max power level damage for their PL.  This way lower PL bad guys still have a chance to hurt the good guys and the players will still have a chance to affect Impervious based NPC opponents.

[SalmonMax]

Of course, that's what made Penetrating attacks worth it...the lingerng spectre of a high-Imp bad guy.

Now Penetrating is still a little worth it, but only on low-rank attacks that might ping off the revised Impervious.

[Jordan]

I know some people aren't happy with it, but to me it makes more sense than everyone and their grandma buying Penetrating "just in case"

[Travis Kincaid]

In third edition they basically made Impervious only useful for people with Toughness shifts and Penetrating only useful for those with Attack Bonus shifts.  

TBH It's a good change.  You don't see people with Toughness +5 bouncing bullets off their abs, they reply on their dexterity and defenses.  Likewise, you almost never see people who can pop tanks open like Budweiser cans having attacks that cut through armor, they instead rely on brute force to get the job done.  

Impervious does the job it's meant to: it makes those who are supposed to be really tough, able to ignore the little people.  

Penetrating does it's job as well: it provides a counter to impervious for concepts that need it.

In rare cases where a concept is such that a low toughness character is immune to damage it is almost always a specific form of damage and would best be shown via Immunity.

[Chosen]

A few months ago I ordered the paperback version of the 3rd Edition Mutants & Masterminds Hero's Handbook.  At the time of my order it was supposed to be delivered in February.  Then it was pushed back to the end of March.  Last week I was notified that it would be shipping next week.  And finally today I received notice that it would ship in the middle of July.

The PDF version is already available and according to Green Ronin's website the book is available at stores.  Has anyone seen the paperback, non DC version?

[Ouroboros]

Did you order from Amazon?  Amazon has been known to be ... terrible, when it comes to dates.  Physical product has been in players hands for about 1-2 weeks now for those who ordered direct from Green Ronin which means that retailers will be receiving and shipping accordingly.

[Chosen]

Yeah, I ordered mine from Amazon.  The book is much cheaper there and I don't have to pay the $11.20 shipping from Green Ronin.

Good to know that the book is out.

[Ouroboros]

Proof that pre-orders from GR are shipping.

[Chosen]

I noticed your "Never trust Amazon" post in that thread.  I rarely purchase any gaming related books prior to launch so I never encounter problems.  

I wish you could also get the PDF for an additional $5 other places.

[Ouroboros]

Actually you can.  If you talk to your FLGS they can sign up with GR and will be able to see you the pre-orders and PDFs through their brick & mortar.  You get a code to be entered online for the PDF.

I'll see if I can find a link to their site for more info.

Edit: I should also clarify: My "never trust amazon" is really in regards to release dates.  Amazon has been known to make up dates outright in order to have something listed for an item.  A practice which has ended up generating a lot of posts with angry tone on the ATT forums when those dates come and go even though GR never gave a date to anybody.

[Ouroboros]

Green Ronin Pre-Order Plus

[Chosen]

Very cool.

I'm not entirely sure why I am even getting the book.  I bought first and second edition and haven't played either of them.  Perhaps it is just because I run a RPG site and want to know how the games on here work.  Or perhaps I am just delusional and think that if I buy it I may play it at some point.

[Ouroboros]

You're always welcome to join us Chosen!