Aberrant RPG - Can i do this?

[Simbiot]

Is abusing the system to consider as a special technique "Bodymorph" in the Elemental Mastery suite ...??

,,

According to my proposal would be that if I have 4 points in EM power rating could be 4 techniques (Bodymorph + any 3)

As we know in the description of the power in Elemental Mastery indicates that each technique is considered to have as many points as the general rank. (So now i have Bodymorph 4)

And in Bodymorph you can link a number of powers equal to your general rank... or less powers with higher ranking...

...I know this would be buying about twice normal powers in a way ....

Excuse my language but English is not my first language ...

So here we go again:

,,

The specific example of what I seek is as follows:

Elemental Mastery 4. (Bio Electricity)

*.- Enhance / Diminish

*.- Storm

*.- Shield

*.- Bodymorph (Warpbody + Immolate + Invulnerability + Flight)

What is your opinion on this subject?

who would allow it .... who do not ...

or conditions or systems that would adopt ...

Thanks !

Prof. Edison.

[SalmonMax]

*bursts into hysterical laughter*

No.

...

Waitasecond...SkyLion? Is that you?

[Dawn OOC]

I wouldn't allow a player to do this. They want BdM, then they gotta pay for it. If you're a player who finds an ST who'll let you do this, please let me have his or her email. I'd like to 'meet' them.

[Forge]

Abso-freaking-lutely not.

Build characters, not character sheets.

[Warren Verona]

Can you do it? Technically yes. The RAW states that any other power the ST declares valid may be used as part of the suite abilities. Bodymorph is a Level 2 power and several powers within suites duplicate Level 2 power effects.

If your ST allows it then more power to you both it's your game and you are welcome to do it however you please.

Would I allow it? Probably not, but only the same side of that coin if the player was a good RPer and brought more to the game than a character sheet, then I might consider it, if only as a test to see if it disrupts the system any.

If the concept was simply just to squeeze as many powers out of a single power as possible, than most certainly not.

["X"]

I would allow it, myself, but I understand why most people would not.

[Krul]

If I was going to allow this, which is unlikely, but if I was, I'd say that every level of bodymorph counts as a technique. So, if you want bodymorph 4, you have to have elemental mastery 4, and all of your techniques have to be spent on the bodymorph.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Krul

If I was going to allow this, which is unlikely, but if I was, I'd say that every level of bodymorph counts as a technique. So, if you want bodymorph 4, you have to have elemental mastery 4, and all of your techniques have to be spent on the bodymorph.

That makes absolutely no sense at all...

[El'Jinn Uu]

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

*bursts into hysterical laughter*
No.
...
Waitasecond...SkyLion? Is that you?

Heh he heh. I'm busting into laughter about you asking if Sky wrote that.

To the OP, Just like Rev said, Yes it is do-able "By the more liberal reading of the book". And Yes it's alright fer a player to ask this of your ST as long as it is fer logic or RP, but I'm going to have to argee with Dawn that the writers of the book would Rather you buy BM strait from the bottom up as a power. In the manner you've got down it looks to me that you're getting allotta power (by making BMorph into a technique') fer next to nothing.
Krul said it best that, if you want to take this as a Technique' than, each sub power which B-Morph gives you (past the first Dots worth) should count as a Technique' in and of themselves and, if you do Not have anymore free Techique' slots open than in all respect to the game, the players, and the ST you should Not take them.

And if you think I'm being unfair in saying that, just ask Rev and he'll tell you how much of a Munchkin he thinks I am and, he's likely right about that, but even I think you're pushing the definition of what "Can" and "Can Not' be considered a technique'.

["X"]

Feasibly, ANYTHING below Elemental Mastery power can and should be a technique for Elemental Mastery provided it falls within the realm of the element that is being controlled. The listed techniques in the books are not the sum total of what the power can do - it can feasibly do anything within the comparable range of the Quantum trait of the power's holder, it is merely harder to things on the fly as compared to things well-practiced.

Adding Bodymorph as a possibility really doesn't make Elemental Mastery more powerful than it already is. Make the player draw their Bodymorph powers from the known techniques of the book and limit their power to however many dots they've allocated in the transformation whenever possible.

For example, they cannot have Flight, but they can have Propel.

They cannot have Armor, but they can have Shield.

You can also halve the effectiveness of any Bodymorphed ability when Bodymorph is used as a technique.

Ways exist to make it work.

[Warren Verona]

The whole 'buy Body Morph as a Level 3 suite technique that consumes slots on a 1 for 1 basis' (which leaves you effectively with a Level 2 power that you just spent XP to increase as a Level 3 Power) makes no sense at all.

Give it to them as a suite technique for one dot that grants [EM Rating] in additional powers. That, or you're better off just saying 'no' and telling the player to use the Level 2 power as it is. It will save the player experience and not make you sound like you can't do basic math.

"X" is right though, feasibly you can make anything work within the realms of the powers and the suites, hell, no matter how you slice it (full strength or half strength) the character still has to pay to maintain every power he's activated and they're all drawn from the same pool.

If you take Bodymorph as a Level 3 suite technique, then you can't drop RQC on it to make it cost less. Maintaining powers while Bodymorphed is relatively cheap, since powers are activated by the transformation and maintained by the Bodymorph power. So if you transform into fire and gain Immolate and Claws (Fire) you're only paying 2qps to maintain three powers (Immolate and Claws and Bodymorph) not 5qps (Immolate, Claws, and Bodymorph). With RQC You're now paying XP for it as a Level 3 power but it only costs you 1qp to maintain all those powers.

If you take it as a suite technique you've now upped the cost to 3qps and you can't pop any extras on it until you've hit Q6 and even then, you've lost an additional extra you could have placed on it if it had been Level 2.

So can you? Sure, but it's not worth it.

[Simbiot]

Its strange, I thought the answers were more likely that the tendency of a ”maybe” you can than a resounding NO YOU CANT, AND YOURE EVIL SO COME HERE TO SPANK YOU!!!… .

,,

And it seems odd because the same text states that when you have 5 or more Quatum .... practically reality bends to your will, you can do whatever you want; and deny a technique of a minimum quantum lower in the suite is somewhat absurd.

… yes its absurd because why cant I do someting with Quantum 5 that is (Only?) possible to do with not Quantum 3.

Krul.

To discuss (no offense)

That what youy say is precisely the concern that I have ....

If I have Elemental Mastery 4 …

I can chose 4 techniques

And

EACH of those techniques will be ranked at 4.

Would some of you could accept as having 4 techniques and BM at half power ??? count as 2 dot rank?

You'd say that every level of BM counts as a technique... So, if you want bodymorph 4, you have to have elemental mastery 4, and all of your techniques have to be spent on the bodymorph.  I DON’T UNDERSTAND here ??¡?¡? That’s correct… but, Elemental Mastery denotes that each dot is a technique ranked at your EM power rating so…

I think for my convenience (Thanks “X” and Rev) I will negotiate with my GM that if even a fraction or rounded like slicing says it or adjusting as taking 2 o 3 dots in BM as my 4 elemental mastery ranks

[SalmonMax]

Each EM technique is one power. Making that one power Bodymorph, and therefore equal to many powers is cheese.

Cheese, with cheese sauce on it.

That's my opinion. Others have other opinions, and that's cool.

It's a game, and no one's getting hurt, so hey...whatever.

...

But it's still cheese.

["X"]

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

Each EM technique is one power. Making that one power Bodymorph, and therefore equal to many powers is cheese.

Cheese, with cheese sauce on it.

That's my opinion. Others have other opinions, and that's cool.

It's a game, and no one's getting hurt, so hey...whatever.

...

But it's still cheese.

Actually, this is not true. EM is anything conceivable that can be done with the element in question within the limits of the Quantum trait of the nova.

Techniques that occupy dot slots on the paper are simply things they have done repeatedly and can perform at a lesser difficulty. Even after you fill up your 5 slots on paper, you can still perform any technique you do not have, and anything that falls within the realm of your element but there is no book technique for. You just roll at a higher difficulty and spend a bit more juice.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Simbiot

Its strange, I thought the answers were more likely that the tendency of a ”maybe” you can than a resounding NO YOU CANT, AND YOURE EVIL SO COME HERE TO SPANK YOU!!!…

I'm not saying you're evil, just that I wouldn't allow it as a GM. The meeting your GM was mostly a joke.

That said, IF I understand right that you want to buy or use BdM as a power to fill a single slot as a technique, and be allowed to have dots in BdM equal to your total dots in EM technique... that I find unbalancing. This falls under a little rebuttal I have that is sung something like this: 'just because you can do it by the rules doesn't make it right, fair or balanced or that I will allow it in my games'. If you find someone like "X" who'll allow it, awesome, I hope you enjoy the character. If you're getting a dot of BdM for each dot of your technique, I agree with Reven, it's not doing a great deal for you. And while I see "X"s point about the nature of techniques, I still feel that BdM as a technique as I described it above is terribly broken and cheesey. Again, that is my PoV, and take it as you well.

[VileBill]

You know what? If I really trusted the player and wasn't concerned about game balance I'd allow pretty much anything. But I'd also expect a player to accept the response of "No, this will affect game balance" as a reasonable response.

[Courier]

Reasons against:

1) Game balance.

2) By what passes for abby-science, Elemental Mastery is an external power (i.e. projecting your power into elements) while Bodymorph is an internal power (altering yourself). Meaning they're not related except perhaps by theme.

3) This idea is better proposed as an argument for characters with different amounts of points, i.e. Batman having 50 points and Superman having 250.

This can work, it can even be fun, but (for the extreme example) not all players are up to playing a Q1 when Joe is playing a Q10, nor are many players up to playing a Q10 without squishing the activities of the Q1's.

(In my experience the later is the harder problem).

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Courier

Reasons against:
1) Game balance.

Coming from the guy who argued 'Bodymorph: Time' was acceptable.

Quote:

2) By what passes for abby-science, Elemental Mastery is an external power (i.e. projecting your power into elements) while Bodymorph is an internal power (altering yourself). Meaning they're not related except perhaps by theme.

But Elemental Anima and Mastery powers are listed as viable options for Bodymorph powers... it says under the power's description.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Coming from the guy who argued 'Bodymorph: Time' was acceptable.

That should tell you how far out there this is.

IMHO WW's definition of "element/energy" is broad enough that Bodymorph works pretty good for "generic concept". I.e. Bodymorph: Werewolf, or even Bodymorph: Warp. Mechanically it's a pretty good fit.

And yes, I know some people disagree, and I'm not trying to fire up that discussion again.

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Quote:

2) By what passes for abby-science, Elemental Mastery is an external power (i.e. projecting your power into elements) while Bodymorph is an internal power (altering yourself). Meaning they're not related except perhaps by theme.

But Elemental Anima and Mastery powers are listed as viable options for Bodymorph powers... it says under the power's description.

All dogs are mammals, all mammals are not dogs.

Bodymorph changes your body, sometimes having effects that extend (such as poison, immolate, or even storm). But fundamentally this is always supposed to be from changing your own body.

Elemental Mastery on the other hand AFAICT doesn't have any techniques that represent changing your own body. Even things like "more soak" involve putting a shield of your element around yourself and not changing yourself.

By abby rules the ability to control "X" isn't the ability to become "X". Sometimes you find both powers walking around in one set of boots (Iceman, Human Torch), more often you don't (Pyro, Magneto, Colossus, Storm, Sandman).

["X"]

Originally Posted By: Courier

By abby rules the ability to control "X" isn't the ability to become "X".

Hey now, nobody controls "X" around here.

[Krul]

Hmm.. but what if I have Elemental Anima X?

[Noah Weston]

LOL!

I have to agree with Courier on this one. Elemantal Anima allows you to control that element if it's already in the environment. Elemental Mastery allows you to create the element as well as control it. Neither one is an internal power or allows for transmutation(of self or of the element in question).

[Mr Fox]

I wouldn't see any problem with a special effect that you're body is covered in flames when you control fire using EM. However, it would just be a special effect and would not provide any mechanical benefit.

IMO, this falls into the category of, "there is a specific power to do exactly what you want, therefore you should buy that specific power." If you want the other things that go with EM then buy it too. Nothing in the rules or in any game I've ever been in that says you can't have both. It's just when you try to cram too much into one power that people start having issues.

As ST, I've turned TK and Telepathy into Suite powers in games I've run. Don't see any problem with that, but then that takes a level 2 power and turns it into a lvl 3. With BM it seems to me you are wanting both BM and EM, but EM is already a lvl 3 power suite. Moving BM up to lvl 3 and bumping it up a little would be fine, but putting it into an already lvl 3 power is where I'd have a problem.

["X"]

Originally Posted By: Noah Weston

LOL!

I have to agree with Courier on this one. Elemantal Anima allows you to control that element if it's already in the environment. Elemental Mastery allows you to create the element as well as control it. Neither one is an internal power or allows for transmutation(of self or of the element in question).

And yet, Shapeshift which actually transforms the Body is a Q4 power. Bodymorph is a mere Q3.

At the point where you have Elemental Mastery, at Q5, you have the potential to perform all of these powers within you. Part of Elemental Mastery's advantage is the fact that you can attempt things like a Bodymorph on the fly.

Can you do it? The potential to do it is already there within you. Saying that you have to purchase another power, one two quantum ranks down from the one you currently possess, to do so seems awfully restrictive when you already control the element in question.

An argument for this would be that of the power Transmit, which is certainly a candidate for a Elemental Mastery technique. A nova who travels through electrical networks conceivably breaks their body down into electricity in order to do so. If you can change your body to electricity in order to move through copper wire, why can't you do so when you aren't?

Storyteller mileage varies, of course, but it isn't as cut and dry as you're making it.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: "X"

Saying that you have to purchase another power, one two quantum ranks down from the one you currently possess, to do so seems awfully restrictive when you already control the element in question.

The problem isn't controlling the element, the problem is controlling your body. Elemental Mastery gives you the former, not the later.

Quote:

An argument for this would be that of the power Transmit, which is certainly a candidate for a Elemental Mastery technique.

Its a candidate for an Elemental Mastery Technique only if the ST says (as a house rule) that EM lets you transform your body into your element.

Further, since EM is so variable, letting someone with EM use that as Bodymorph gives them a variable Bodymorph. I.e. if I have one dot of EM:Light then I can create any BM:Light that I can imagine. Flight, Immolate, Teleport; Everything L2 that's in theme is now in reach.

[Krul]

Actually, the Q5 Power, Matter Chameleon is the ultimate version of Bodymorph, not shapeshift.

["X"]

Originally Posted By: Courier

Its a candidate for an Elemental Mastery Technique only if the ST says (as a house rule) that EM lets you transform your body into your element.

Further, since EM is so variable, letting someone with EM use that as Bodymorph gives them a variable Bodymorph. I.e. if I have one dot of EM:Light then I can create any BM:Light that I can imagine. Flight, Immolate, Teleport; Everything L2 that's in theme is now in reach.

Well, if you're going to get that particular, anything you take is up for ST approval as well. They can approve or deny anything including standard powers if it is out of flavor for the story being told. There's nothing in the book that denies Transmit as a technique for the reasons you are describing - Transmit doesn't actually say the body transforms into anything, only that you can move through the element instantaneously. I used the electricity example as a possibility.

Whether you would allow a fully variable Bodymorph as a technique is again up to the ST. Personally, as an ST I'd make the choice be a static one after the first time it is used rather than a dynamic one.

[Simbiot]

Originally Posted By: Courier

Further, since EM is so variable, letting someone with EM use that as Bodymorph gives them a variable Bodymorph. I.e. if I have one dot of EM:Light then I can create any BM:Light that I can imagine. Flight, Immolate, Teleport; Everything L2 that's in theme is now in reach.

Its soo strange; i think that EM is excatly that.. you can manifest anything in your theme because your Q5 is higher than any level 2 quantum minimum so your conciousness lets you shape the element and the continuum to your will...

Its easier for the technices you use all the time and are well trained (so you have specific dots in it...)

But if you dont have it "trained" its harder (+1 diff) and a lot difficult to maintaining it (Double quantum expenditure…)

[El'Jinn Uu]

I'd wanted to comment of this post of yours' earlier, but I've had NO access to the net fer months now.

To everyone, the book clearly points out (Players Guide Page 98, left hand column) that Techniques should be Weaker versions of those level 2 powers which they are duplicating.

This is self evident in the Aberrant Main books write ups of power techniques in that almost none (None that I can find) given techniques listed, which mimic existing powers, are truly as powerful as said level two abilities.

Example: The Sheild, Blast, and flight techniques are far less powerful than the Level two powers of Force Feild, Quantum Bolt, and Fly!!!

ADD+ flight techniques are Not allowed to mix with Hypermovement.

Body Morph is a SUB version of Shape Shifting and or Matter Chamelion and IT can use it's nature for Out growths of power into the realm of Elemental Anima & Mastery powers... But Body Morph is Not an outgrowth of E-Anima & E-Mastery, they are environmental manipulation powers, and therefor not viable Direct means to develope(technique, or the actual power of) Body morph.

To pull that off you'd need to have a Self, bio-manipulation power (like shape shift, or Adaptability) and then find some way to work your way into Body morph from there.