Terrorist Attack

[Avenger]

So, unless you've been living in a cave (or...y'know...another country), you've heard about the bombings. For those who haven't, I'll sum up:

Two jet planes slammed into the world trade towers this morning. Yeah. Bigass jet planes broadsided the buildings. And then something blew up a significant portion of the Pentagon. The Pentagon. That's US intel resource number one. This is going to be a lot of dead fucking people.

Since we probably won't know for awhile, I'm curious as to who you people think did this, and what your thoughts on the matter are.

Personally? I think it was one of our own. Tim McVeigh was just executed, after all. Yanks are pissed off, and every leftist and rightist wacko with grudge is hopping mad. They've shown the world what happens to terrorists on our soil -- the get the death penalty. One life for hundreds. Good trade, if you've got an axe to grind. It helps if you've got some people backing you up. They said Tim McVeigh acted alone.

Yeah. Sure.

And so were the several people (at least six) that all just happened to fly jet planes into big fucking buildings. Lone nuts. Point the finger so we can sleep at night.

I guarantee, they'll have someone to blame for this in twenty-four hours, and chances are they'll tell us that it was a cell of disgruntled psychopaths with a grudge.

All of whom are now dead, of course.

So that you can go back to sleep. So you can feel comfortable in your homeland, knowing that you're not going to get blown up going to work, because the bad people were punished. They died in the conflagration. Maybe they'll pick up a couple of anonymous malcontents for taste. But I promise you, they'll have someone to burn and blame for this really soon, just to make sure that the civvies don't fall into widespread panic. Because after all, a comforting lie is preferable to an uncomfortable truth, right?

Fuck that. Thank you, I'd rather know the truth.

If they blame this on the Middle East, I'm going to be fucking pissed. That's an excuse to go to total war just waiting to happen. If they blame Arabia for this, I guarantee it will mean war.

As for how I feel about the bombings themselves? My only lament is that there were people in those buildings. There could have been people in the planes. People will die of smoke inhalation, people will die by shrapnel and rubble. People will die in the stampedes to get away. And that's fucked up. People don't deserve to die like that.

But the buildings? Fuck 'em. I think we've all had days on which we wanted to nuke a government building. I sure as fuck don't shed a tear for the broken Pentagon.

Thoughts?

--Avenger

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Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Avenger]

FUCK. FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK!!!!

It only took them five minutes...

This is going to mean war. Just watch.

--Avenger

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Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Guest]

The Trade Towers have both collapsed, an explosion in the Pentagon, The Capital Building and the congressional corridor. Another plane has reportedly been hijacked in the Washington DC area.

Apparently some faction of the PLO is claiming responsibility for this. I can't see the US not going to war after this.

I hope all my friends from the US that post here are okay and uninjured. Keep well people, this is far from over.

[Father Ryan]

Go to war? I hope not.

The PLO aren't exactly a county. More a terrorist organistion surely.

Hope none of you are hurt or any of your family/friends.

God bless all there.

[Guest]

Someone said that the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palistine (a renegade splinter group that I believe broke from the PLO years ago) claimed responsibility. However an official of PFLP denied it.

So it may not be the Palastinians.

My money is Ben Lauden (sp?). You know that terrorist that attacked some embassies and that the Americans tried to bomb a few years ago. Hes got the money and the contacts...

Folks, we have a new day dawning.

Forget bombs. Forget Missiles. The next Terrorist weapon is 20 tons of moving metal with 1000 lbs of fuel on board. They aren't bombing planes, they are using them as means of destruction...

[This message has been edited by Prophet (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Sidious]

second plane headed for washington, probably the Pentagon.

Large plane crash in Penn. they think it's related.

Oh and Fox News has Labeled the day already "Day of Terror", I hate when they do that.

[This message has been edited by Sidious (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Avenger]

It was only a matter of time before they went from delivery trucks full of explosives to planes full of fuel. I'm surprised they didn't figure it out sooner.

Oh, they got Camp David now, too.

Two to three hours away from me on every side... Something tells me they won't be crashing into my neighborhood. Theres a missile plant here in town, but I think that'd be too small a target.

If they were smart, they'd hit Congress. I mean, who the fuck are these stupid terrorists that they hit the trade center? And Camp David? Come now. You want to destroy the US government, you hit Congress, you hit the White House, you hit the Senate building. They were smart to hit the Pentagon, but those other targets were a waste.

This is idiotic. I just don't see this being an Arabian attack. I could be wrong.

Plus, politicians kinda have it coming.

But not civvies.

--Avenger

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Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Avenger]

I've got to go to sleep. I'll expect a full report when I wake up, guys. Give me the straight dope.

Heres hoping us New Yorkers don't die today. Contrary to belief, today is not a good day to die.

Cheers, mates.

--Avenger

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Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Guest]

I just found out that Nick, the man behind Jordan Rossi, was somewhere in or near New York today. I'm trying to get in touch with his life partner, but he is undertandably busy trying to get news himself. This has brought this that much closer to home for me. Nick is a good freind of mine and I hope he is well. If anyone has any more information, can you let me know here please?

[Guest]

Two of my best friends are in DC..one of them is downtown and the other works for the government. My father is a federal judge.

As far I know they are currently okay....as far as I know.

So regardless of who did this I want them dead.

Sorry, no tenderness and forgiveness there...I just want them to suffer and die.

As for theories......well I concede it could easily be an American militia group. Course last I heard Hussein had terminal cancer....maybe he just decided to say "fuck it". Then it could be a new group too. Evidence seems to point to the MO of a Middle Eastern group (hijacking, coastal targets, etc..) but who knows?

[Sidious]

think that's a universal feeling there Jack.

Only thing going through my mind for the last couple of hours was "Find them, make them pay."

Still kinda there in the background. I'm going to chill and listen to some music until i get down off the outrage high.

Then I can calmly explain why I think we should turn their country (who ever did it/ helped them do it) in to a giant glass parking lot.

I did think of this analogy to a friend I was talking to watching all this. the US is like a big family. Sure we may try to kill each other now and then, but the minute someone else hits us at our house the attacker suddenly faces a united front.

kinda works.

[This message has been edited by Sidious (edited 09-11-2001).]

[Jager]

Atleast we aren't going straight after the Arab-Americans, this time. They are citizens, too.

It doesn't feel like a domestic group. One, I don't see the FBI dropping the ball that bad. Our international intelligence is alot more thinly spread out.

Two, it isn't the style of domestics to kill civilians while making their point. Remember, in their own twisted reasoning, everyone in the Oklahoma City bombing was a "Fed" or a Fed-dupe, and therefore, the enemy.

Flying a planeload of citizens into a business doesn't feel like something they would do. Just take out a Fed Ex or UPS flight for that. Same results without the 260 dead passangers and crews.

Whoever it was had trained pilots, incredible planning, and a great deal of patience. Consider how hard it is to actually hijack a flight in this country. I think they had some people on the 'inside' who planted the weapons for the hijackers to use. Maintenance or cleaning crews, if not crew attendance. Also, the hijackings were so smooth that no word got out from any of the pilots. Only the doomed Penn. flight had any warning, and that was from a guy in the bathroom on a cell phone shortly before it crashed.

I also don't see a regular pilot crashing his plane into a building even with a pistol to his head.

The Pentagon attack wasn't nearly as destructive as it could have been because the pilot came in too hard and crashed into the ground infront of the building. I think that the person at the controls wasn't familiar with a 757.

All of this is so strange.

Is there going to be any justice for this? Will our government do the right thing or will this merely be used for some other purpose as Avenger fears? I don't know.

My little girl is 6 weeks old and I just realized that she will really grow up in a world very different than my own.

Looking at the impact

[Stheno]

Watching this from our side of the Atlantic, I have to say it all looks very strange.

I really, really hope that everything isn't as bad as it looks.

If I remember correctly, the KGB (I know they call themselves the SVR these days, but they're still the KGB) warned everyone, just before the last G8 summit, that Bin Laden's people were preparing for something big. Everyone assumed that it would be something to do with the G8 summit.

It's not the only possible conclusion, but it's the most obvious one.

As to doing "the right thing"... I don't think there is a "right thing" to do.

No matter what happens, a lot of innocent people have been hurt and killed, and a lot more will be hurt still.

I can only hope that I'm wrong in my interpretation of how standard terrorist doctrine would apply to this situation.

I don't think there can be any justice in this situation.

I just hope that no one throws a match at the tinderbox that is the Middle East. I have friends in Israel, and I'd really prefer if they were living in a country, rather than a glass parking lot in the morning.

Jager, say hi to your little girl for Bungee and me.

Life goes on, I guess.

[Avenger]

Everyone is jumping to 'Middle East'. It's got to be Ben Lauden, right? Right?

Quick-stats for you, guys.

"Of the 169 anti-US attacks reported in 1999, Latin America accounted for 96 [attacks], Western Europe for 30, Eurasia for nine and Africa sixteen. The Middle East acount only for eleven, and Asia for six. Most of these attacks were bombings. The report's figures for the total number of terrorist attacks by region indicate that in recent years, Latin America and Europe have each accounted for a greater number of terrorist attacks than the Middle East and Asia combined. 1999 is consistant with this pattern."

Everyone is so ready to point the finger at the Middle East. Though the above snippet from an article by Ali Abunimah doesn't prove anything about today, I'd just like to point out that automatic assumption that "those filthy sand-niggers" are behind this is outright fucking ridiculous. Sure, Ben Lauden hates us. Plenty of people in the world hate us. We're the Great Satan, remember? People in countries like El Salvador have a lot more reason to hate us than someone from Iraq.

And nobody wants to think it was one of our own. No, couldn't be an American. No. No way. Not a red-blooded American. It could only be one of those filthy foreigners.

Bollocks. I see this as a cancer eating away at the organism it infects. A decade from now, you all might have conclusive proof that this was a Middle Eastern attack, and that in the war that followed we punished the bastards responsible because by god we ran right over there and slaughtered another 175,000 Iraqi men, women and children.

I don't see it that way.

--Avenger

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Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Dr cornelius]

from an australian view point, what has happened over thier was a tragedy of mass proportions, the crazies where specificatly targeting the normal everday person, except for the pentagon attack.

They could just as well of got their message across with less loss of life, one plane with passengers, taken out the statue of liberty, and roughly got the same effect from the american public, but instead went for the 3-4 target plenty of blood and mayhem mission, line the fuckers up, and will shot them for you for free, ankles, knees, wrists, elbows, hip joint, shoulder joint, stomach, then one in the head.

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call me a kitty cat will you, grrrrrrrrr see my claws, and watch them rip your heart out human.

[Avenger]

No shit. If I was a terrorist (which I ain't), and I was going to attack/bomb government facilities, I'd go for the Pentagon, the Senate Building, the White Hourse, Fort Bragg, Fort Knox, CIA HQ... None of those places have a high civvie concentration. These attackers were either dumb as fuck or very, very smart.

--Avenger

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Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Guest]

I go for very, very smart.

By destroying America's financial center, they have effectively shut down world trade, at least for a day, if not longer. That is going to have major concequences on the world economy.

They struck at civilian buisnesses in the trade center. Those businesses will have insurance which means the insurance companies will have to shell out millions, if not billions, of dollars. That means insurance companies are going to jack up their premiums across the board and become much more stingy when it comes to paying out on policies.

If you look at what they were trying to do, they were trying to hit the military might (Pentagon), Political basis (Congressional Mall and other Washington targets) and the financial heart (the WTC). If they had succeeded, all they would have had to do is take out the countries communications, and America would have been is serious trouble.

Yes, I think the people behind this are very smart. Be thankful that they weren't completely successful.

[This message has been edited by Atwight (edited 09-12-2001).]

[Jager]

One official put the dead in the WTC at 10,000 people. The local firefighters lost 200 when the buildings collapsed, as well as 60 or so policemen. There still aren't precise figures yet.

Avenger, the biggest thing that hits me is that no one credible has taken credit for this. It smacks of someone or some group that hates the US and americans. Everyone is denying this one.

Avenger, what are the statistics on suicide bombers?

Does anyone know what the explosions in Kabul this evening were about? There seems to be an explosion at a fuel or ammo dump as well as firing at the airport. Did we launch some cruise missles at them, or is the government falling apart? I can't see how we could already blame the Afghanies at this early juncture. Hell, the Pentagon is still on fire.

[Hugin]

Avenger, I point to Bin Lauden for a couple of reason.

1. This was organized and well planned. He has an effective organization at his fingertips.

2. It required suicidal dedication. Martyrdom is not a trait I would attribute to those 'red blooded Americans' that are out there. McVey didn't want to die. He was prepared to yes, but he still made an effort to keep his ass alive. Todays attackers went in *knowing* they were dead men.

3. Memberships in fringe movmements in this country have been shrinking ever since the Oklahoma bombing. The countries reaction was so solidly against McVey and his belief system that it sucked the wind out of a lot of guys sails. It made it very apparent that while the government was against them, so was the nation as a whole.

4. The focus on a civilian target seems a little unusual. However, I will acknowledge that the WTO has been getting a shitload of bad press lately and there are plenty of 'extremist' groups out there of domestic origin that wouldn't mind making a blow against Corporate America. However, I believe that the US focus on attention and victimhood is strong enough that one of our home grown groups would have taken credit for it.

I don't hate either Arabs or Persians. There are some aspects of the culture I find distasteful, but hell there are aspects of our culture I find repugnant. I think its Bin Lauden and Co. because I think he is simply more capable.

Hell, it doesn't really matter. Just so long as we find the fuckers, lock up the ACLU just long enough to draw and quarter them, and then do our best to make sure that our new interest in 'security' doesn't have us living in an even worse police state.

[Apep]

The government fucking knew something was going to happen.

Two days ago all millitary bases were closed to the public for "security excercises", wargames essentially.

You know, things like ten minute security clearance checks to enter a building and shit like that.

You do the research. I thought at first it may have been a coincidence at Ft.Levenworth(near where I am), but it was everywhere. They were expecting this. They were warned. They know who did it and they're not telling us.

I think flight 93 was gunned down too. Even Peter Jennings suggested it before he was cut from the air tonight(you know a journalist sometimes says things they shouldn't when they've been on the air since 7 in the morning.)

This is all to surreal.

[Guest]

James has got the logical points for BL...I have none to add.

But for a moment let's think about something.

Maybe these guys were just evil. Maybe they wanted to cause the most pain they could and elected a target that would let they visibly kill a bunch of people in a national landmark.

I know, before anyone jumps on the "real evil doesn't exist" crap I'll agree..sorta. People don't think they are evil when they do these things.

Course sometimes what they do is so horrible that what they think about themselves doesn't count for shit. I call it the "Nazi Death Camp Guard" category.

You may also know it by the "Rape Camp Supervisor" or "Small-Pox Ridden Blankey Bearing Indian Trader" logos. Same deal.

Whoever did this falls into this category. We need to understand their reasons to catch them and stop them...not to "see their point of view".

So far on the WW Forums and few other places I've seen a cutesy "American had this coming" undertone on some posts. I know this makes some people feel awful sophsiticated and up on world events and social dynamics...somne of them are even people I generally like...but here is where I differ.

News flash. Nobody "had this coming." Not en masse. Did the WTC people rape children? Did they shoot the bombers families?

Some people want to forgive at least a bit murder by saying the murderer was a victim themselves. In this case some people want to assume it. Now if its self-defense or you're insane I can maybe see this.

But if you family got killed or friend got imprisoned or you lost the family farm..go after the bastard tht's responsible for that...leave everyone else alone. To do anything else is to lose ALL ability to bemoan your own circumstances. Or to quote Indiana Jones:

"You stood up to be counted with the enemies of all the Grail stood for...who gives a damn what you think?"

Simple philosophy..but it works.

[Kirby1024]

Man. To be frank, I found out about this at 8:00am Melbourne Time.

Frankly, I cannot even believe that this even happened. As a few have pointed out, this is so fucking surreal.

But, then again, I've been looking at myself and the people around me all day, trying to figure out exactly how I feel about all this.

I don't feel anything. Not that that's entirely unexpected of me. I mean, I haven't even fully comprehended what's happened.

And the weird thing is, it didn't look like anyone else around cared all that much either. A few people wanted to know details, yeah, but on the whole, there was either a non-reaction or an almost anger at the event being there. We had a minute of silence at school for the victims of the attacks, as well as the half-mast flag. But, and this I found completely... astounding, is that my Media teacher told me that he had heard people complaining about having to go through the minute of silence.

And of course, there are people here that have a vested interest in what's going on. My IT teacher cancelled class so he could call the Foreign Affairs office and find out whether his best friend in New York was OK or not. I've also heard from 3 other kids who have friends/relatives in NY.

But, on the other hand, I'm not feeling anything. Not even the outrage part of my brain is really working. I'm feeling so very detached from all this, and not 2 hours after I heard the news, I caught myself making jokes about the attack. That's not right, not even to me once I'd caught myself. I really ask, what the fuck is wrong here? Me, with my personality, a person who tries to help people whenever they can, shouldn't I be feeling something?

And then, an explanation hit me. It's probably not the explanation, but it's one - Me, being half a world away, am still safe. America, the hated country of the world (and let's face it, everyone in the world has a bone with America, even americans) was the one that got bombed. Maybe, just maybe, those people deserved what happened to them. Just maybe.

Is that really it? Is that what I'm really thinking? That thousands of men, women and children, deserved to die in the most ignomious way possible? In the rational part of my brain, I know that can't be right. I would be very surprised if the death toll in these attacks were below 20,000. Can I really write off all those people as "just" deaths?

No fucking way. Yet, that could very well be it.

As you can tell, I've not been all too happy this day. Not because of the Terrorist attack. But because of my reaction to it. I should be feeling remorse. Something. Anything. And yet I don't.

This is just a stinking, horrible day. It really strips off that layer of thinking that says that the world is all in order. One event, and the world is in chaos.

Thanks for reading this, I'm not sure how I'll feel tomorrow. Whether, once/if it sets in fully, I'll feel different. But I've just seen a day that seemed absolutely normal. No crowding around television sets trying to get the latest details. Noone trying their hardest to sneak radios into school so they can hear the latest events on ABC Newsradio. The only thing that would be different if this hadn't happened, is that the papers wouldn't have all the pictures, the TV would be broadcasting the regular programs, and I wouldn't be sitting here trying to convince myself, in front of all of you, that I'm a decent person.

Sorry you have to read this. I just had to get it out to someone, and frankly, I need to type it to someone. I'll see you tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by Kirby1024 (edited 09-12-2001).]

[The Ranger]

First off is eveeryone here OK? What about Jordan Rossi? Has everyone contacted relations OK?

It appears that the Pennsylvania flight was shot down by military planes...apparently its destination was the white house. I'd have to say that the World Trade center was the best target they could have chosen for maximum kills. These fuckers were very well organised and cold blooded.

That Kabul thing seems to be unrelated ... someone maybe blowing off steam or hoping to start something?

The Israelis moved into a Palistinian area last night and destroyed a security outpost. This is looking dangerous. Israel may use this as an excuse to engage in wholesale slaughter.

I hope to Christ that Bush can keep it in his pants for a few days until they find out who really did it.

What can I say? It is stunning that this could have happened. Apparently the hijackers were trained pilots. (and knew how to fly a modern 767 and 757) Also according to airport security consultants here the security on internal (not international) US flights is pretty terrible and there are websites which tell you how to smuggle stuff past them. Everything goes to the lowest bidder.

[Aeon]

Everyone over here in the UK are in hysterics. Most British fully expected this to spill over onto us (we being America's biggest allies) and security is getting ramped up here but not to the same extent as in America. shock has turned to anger and most people are wanting to help America find the culprits and drop a can of whoop-ass on them.

Bin-Lauden is a likely culprit because he was implicated in the first attempted attack on the World Trade Centre. But I would analyse the targets they chose. Why the WTC when the White House is a more potent American symbol. The Answer? These punks have a hatred for the first world. How many western Europeans, Japanese and other prominent business people were caught up in the explosions? These could be anti-capitalists or right-wing Americans. I just hope that we find out.

As far as the hijacking goes - the Penn crash mobile indicated that the hijackers were wielding knives, not guns. some British experts were postulating that they acted like normal hijackers and asked to go to New York. When they got near to their target they disposed of the pilots, and quite an easy effort, piloted the doomed craft into the WTC and Pentagon. In Penn the terrorists were probably overwhelmed by determined passengers - but unfortunately the plane crashed during a brawl or without pilots left alive.

As for the Arabs and Palestinians celebrating the events - although I doubt they are the perps - I would not be celebrating so openly, it just invites the wrath of America.

Let our thoughts be with the victims and their families.

Aeon

[Avenger]

Update:

So they found a car with a copy of the Qoran, a videotape in Arabic on how to fly a commercial airplane and a gas consumption calculator. The car was rented out to an Arabian man.

Moving on.

Aeon --

If an anonymous country or terrorist faction bombed the shit out of Iraq, there would be rednecks in the streets cheering, drinking and firing off shotguns. The Palestinians fucking hate us. Just because they were cheering because we're getting our asses kicked, it doesn't mean that every person in Palestine was in on the gag. I know that's not what you were proposing, but I wanted to bring it up.

Jager --

I don't know if you've ever been in the cockpit of a jet airplane, but I have. If you put a gun to my head, I could remember how to fly it sufficiently enough to not kill everyone. And that's from a five-minute encounter. The fact that these guys were 'trained' in flying 767's and 757's means they went to a six-hour terrorist workshop, nothing more.

Kirby --

Don't feel bad, brother. I still think you're a good man. But you're young yet, as am I, and both of our countries share an ethnocentricity bordering on dangerous. We don't think about tragedies in other countries because they don't happen here. It is ingrained into us not to care about a world that exists outside our sphere of regard. It will take time, practice and most of all research and experience to change this. If you want to be more empathic to beople in tragedies in other countries, go to rotten.com and look at the pictures of Honduran refugees who were raped and eviscerated. No, it isn't pretty, and it shouldn't be. But it's real, and you won't find it in the newspaper.

More than likely, you were making light of the situation because you feel uncomfortable with it. Even if you feel dead inside, even if you feel nothing at all, you know that what happened is awful, and it's easier to belittle those involved than it is to stare into the eyes of the horror of the situation and allow yourself to feel another persons' pain.

By the way, an excellent source in the form of music on this subject is the song 'American Jesus' by Bad Religion. Give it a listen.

Jack --

The buildings had it coming. The government had it coming. But not the civvies.

And by the way, I do think evil exists. Thats why there has to be good people to combat it.

And for the record, American settlers didn't intentionally give out Smallpox-infected blankets. At the time the European immune system was such that smallpox was a small pain, nothing more. Nobody could have predicted that the Indigeounous population wouldn't be ready for this. Their immune systems just couldn't handle it. I'm sure the settlers viewed it as a nice bonus, but it wasn't intentional.

Apep --

I'm with you. I've heard that same thing from other sources, too. More on this later on here.

Prodigy --

Exactly what have you got against the ACLU?

Anyway, I still don't think it was Bin Laden. But more on that in a second.

Okay, the way I see it, there are only two relevant theories:

1. Bin Laden didn't do it.

I support this, personally. It's my theory, and I'm sticking with it for now. In retort to James' points:

1A. Anyone can organize, if properly motivated.

2A. Classically, true. But it's hardly out of the question that anyone could be worked into suicidal fervor if properly motivated.

3A. I don't think so. I just think they went underground. And that's to say nothing of the hundreds of anti-US groups outside our own turf.

4A. It's true, most American groups wouldn't want to hit civvies. But the WTO is home of one of the biggest, most evil empires on this planet, and any rumormonger up on his conspiracies would peg the WTO as a huge threat.

Now, as for this car, rented by in Arab, in which they found a copy of the Qoran, a videotape in Arabic on how to fly a commercial jet plane and a gas consumption calculator.

1B. Yeah, the Qoran is a really rare item for a Muslim. Very incriminating.

2B. Whenever I fly, I carry a book with me on how to fly a commercial jet plane. I do this so that if there happens to be a problem, I'm prepared. Does this make me a terrorist?

3B. A fuel consumption calculator has more than one use. The guy could have been a hobbyist.

4B. To say nothing of the fact that maybe this shit was planted there.

So why plant it? Easy. This brings me to theory

2. The Arabians did it.

Whether they did or not, the end result is the same; we are going to war. If someone on our soil did it, it will be covered up, evidence will be planted, and Bin Laden will be blamed. Because Bush wants war. War is profitable, war gets rid of people on welfare. Bush wants a war, and damn you if you would take it from him. No matter who did this, Bin Laden will be the one you hear about. And then we'll go to war.

I find it particularly funny how everyone is comparing this attack to Pearl Harbor. "The Pearl Harbor of Terrorism", they're calling it. This is hilarious. Know why?

Because we knew Pearl Harbor was coming and we ignored the warning. FDR had ample time and numerous warnings to prepare, and he didn't. Why? Well, the most prevalant theory (and the one I subscribe to) is that FDR needed the American people in a fervor to kill the Nazi's. Our complacency wouldn't win the war, and until Pearl Harbor, America couldn't give a shit about WWII. FDR let it happen, we think, to get us revved-up to fight Hitler. And now, just like FDR, Bush is doing the same thing with the Middle East. Already people are burning for vengeance, ready to send troops and nukes to the Middle East to exact our bloody revenge. The civvies are stomping for war, and our President will be more than happy to oblige.

Apep evidenced this, as have several other sources I've heard from. Many military installations had warning and bumped up security all over the country. In some installations, nobody was allowed in or out for days before the attack.

They knew this was coming, plain and simple, and they let it happen so that we could justify going to war, sending in soldiers, improving the economy with the war machine and killing off/experimenting on the lower class to get rid of them.

I won't even suggest that the CIA or any one of a dozen US black-ops groups engineered and/or executed this themselves so they could justify this. Oops. Sorry, looks like I did.

For all we know, Bin Laden gets his money from the CIA. It wouldn't be the first time the US has engaged in state-sanctioned terrorism.

--Avenger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[The Ranger]

Ahem, Bin Laden was trained and funded by the US years ago in Afganistan. I believe it was the CIA who trained him.

I think the Koran, fuel calculator and manuals are a bit too obvious. If it was a RPG I'd say it was a set up. Then again who knows. Hey, maybe it was Israel. Gives them an excellent excuse to blow the shit out of arabs. (I doubt it but there you are.)

Once again my deepest sympathies to anyone who lost friends or family.

[Guest]

Avenger....

The buildings had it coming? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

Excuse me, I have a brownstone that was looking at me funny....I think I'll go shoot it up. Oh wait, the tent over there....what a damned menace...let me get my flamethrower.

Yeah, those contructions sure get uppity sometimes, serves em right....Suppose the planes had it coming to...always flying around up in the air like they're better than everyone else....

Ranger-

This isn't an RPG. Nuff said. People do stupid things that get them caught all the time and in hindsight it often looks "fishy". Read a few criminal law cases and you can find all sorts of situations where you're saying "God that has to be a set-up I mean I would never be that stupid."

But then terrorism is hardly an intellectual activity. The people that do it often are stupid, and petty, and nasty.

To everyone who seems to want to bitch about how "bad" the US is.....

Look everybody...I hate burst the bubble of the few of you who love to go all Spider Jerusalem on us but the US is not nearly the tyrannical, deserving of harm palce some of you would like to believe.

I want you to do me all a favor...go find a guy from Malaysia, or India, or Iraq or whatever around where you live. I want you to ask him to tell you why he left his country...why he's here in the States (or UK or whatever). This is particularly useful if you can find a guy with a few unexplained scars.

If he says "to bring down your imperialist country for its oppressions of my native land" I'll eat my hat (I'd also suggest you check for flight manuals and a box-cutter sticking out of his pocket). More than likely you'll get this...

"My parents and I had to flee after the new regime took over..."

"We wanted a place where we could speak freely without fearing for your lives"

"After the rebels killed my brother and the government raped my sister we could no longer stay."

BTW..none of those are "made up" I've heard them all. Another popular one is "Its very bad in my country...I don't wish to speak of it more."

Now, for those of you abroad, grab a resident of the US, UK, or similar nation. Now ask them why they're not in their country. You'd likely get this.

"Here on business."

"Studying abroad."

"My wife/husband is from here and he wanted to visit/stay for awhile with my his/her family." (that's of course assuming their SO hasn't been killed for being a infidel, race traitor, or simply "unclean")

Also, real statements.

The US is a great country. Its one of the best. If that strikes you as sad, then it is the whole fucking world that needs to be improved (yes, including us)...the fundamentalist muslims who treat women like property don't get to play the morally superior card. The Chinese goverment who have destroyed their own heritage and culture to help keep their populace ignorant and scared don't get to play the more civilized card.

Course it's not fair to talk about people in these broad strokes, but screw that...what's good for the goose, etc...

They all suck, We all suck, but mostly we suck much less than most....if you can't see that then you're blinded by the same bullshit you're slinging. Criticize other people for a change. Its getting old on our side of the fence.

When the women I know can go to the Middle East without someone offering to "buy" them... When you can't pay to have sex with eight year olds in Thailand...When the burden of proof rests on the state and not the accused in a Chinese court.... then I'll join you in bitching about the US. Of course that's just me imposing my stupid American ideals on the world....if your culture says you can buy a child and sodomize him while he cries and screams or beat your wife to death for telling you "no"..well I guess I'm just too ignorant of other cultures to realize that's okay....

All this "America sucks" crap especially in the wake of recent events sounds like self-hating, dogmatic, one-sided bullshit (to those of you from the US) and self-righteous, propagandist, uninformed bullshit (from those of you who are not or somehow have convinced yourself that you are not really "part" of the US). This is the same type of thought that says that "Jews deserved what they got in Nazi Germany." Fundamentally there is no difference...you're relying on hearsay and unconfirmed "evidence" to point to American "atrocities".

Now you could say we're point the finger at Bin Laden that way too. Maybe..but at least that bastard admits to terrorist acts in the past. He's got the mental state and MO..its not proof but at least its on the way there.

When was the last time you heard an American "boast" of sending guns to a militant group or funding a revolution. I'm not saying it never happens or that its should, but you have to prove it if you expect anyone to listen. (Just like I'd have to prove that your were an asshole if I expected people to believe it).."Knowing" its true gets people burned at the stake. "Knowing" the US is "corrupt" or "bad" or whatever is worth the price of the paper thatyour brand of dogma is printed on without evidence.

I don't like to say this cause I dislike the small-minded company it often puts me in, but if you don't like the US....leave. We aren't stopping you. Other places will. We won' Go. Go find that "better place". Alternatively, try to make things better. Alternatively to that, shut the fuck up and show some fucking decorum.

[Avenger]

Jack, I'll give you a more proper responce later, but I'm pressed for time right now. One thing you wrote jumped out at me in particular, as it does from plenty of poeple who've said it to me before;

If I don't love this country, leave, right?

Shit, wish I'd thought of that. Who knew it could be so simple? Just GO! Ha! Imagine that! All I have to do is pack up my gear and move to another country!

As soon as you cut me a cashiers check to ship me and all my gear to the country of my choice and find me a place to stay and a job to support my life when I get there, man, I'm gone.

"Are you proud to be an American? I mean, really proud? I didn't have much say in the matter. My parents fucked here, thats about it." -- Bill Hicks

--Avenger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Thingmaker]

Gentlemen, I request that you consider the following. Somebody wants us dead for no better reason than our citizenship. Expressing our anger at one another will not change that. If you feel the need to express rage, I suggest such expression be targeted at those as yet unidentified parties responsible for the murdurs.

[Apep]

I don't believe in predictions and all of that crap but I found this one interesting:

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder,

Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb. The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus

People have been calling my boyfriend things like "fucking sand nigger" He's not even middle-eastern. He may look somewhat like a crazy terrorist, but it's uncalled for. He shaved his head out of fear of getting jumped by a bunch of rednecks.

My sister is a flight attendant for United. She's quiting her job.

There was an hour wait at the gas pumps yesterday.

I've been yelled at more than I can count by angry customers today for not selling the New York Times where I work.

They've pulled the Spiderman trailer out of theaters and closed the site down.

Sometimes it's just the little things that get to you.

Avenger,

Thanks for having similar crazy ass thoughts as myself. It's reassuring not to be the only one labeled as a nut.

[Hugin]

Having been on the receiving end of Avenger's stinging wit on a couple of occasions I find myself looking forward to his expanded reply with a strange sort of anticipation.

[Guest]

I personally wait with bated breath for Avenger's reply.

I don't dislike you man but you do the same think every time..you ignore every point you can't mock/derided and then get pithy with one singular bit...all with this sort of "in yer face" pseudo-gonzo style that tells everyone you feel some sort of moral duty to give a harsh wake-up call to all us wage-slaves and brainwashed squares (the buildings had it coming..I swear). Its arrogant and disrespectful and to that you seem to thumb yer nose and say "well that's the way I am, go to hell if ya don't like it."

Whatever man. Let's have this same conversation in a few years. I've tried real hard not to bring your age into the picture but you act like a stereotypical "angry young man" with an arrogant as hell, "I've read the right books and know the right dogma so let me tell you all why yer stupid..." rap going on.

I should know...I was one of those a long time ago in a generation far far away. Then a funny thing happened on the way to pretension....

I grew up. I thought I had before. It was then I felt the need to pass judgment and tell everyone how bad the country, the older generations, and everyone who wasn't me was. After all, I was a grown up, and an enlightened one at that.

Course I was wrong. But eventually it happened (though if yer like me you've got a whole bunch of bottom left to hit before that happens). So buck up little camper...it'll be your turn some day too.

Note: You don't like the condecension and in yer face tone of that little bit..tough. "The outstretched hand gets slapped" the Chinese used to say before they burned all their books.

So as for that one singular bit....

I have a question. If I were to cut you a check..where would you go that's better? Not as good, but noticeably and empirically better. This is the one bit nobody ever answers when they trash this country and I think that is a very fair question.

[Avenger]

I'd like to make one thing perfectly crystal clear and totally express before I begin this upcoming tirade;

I love this country.

There, I said it. Bet you didn't expect it out of me, eh? Yeah, I love the US of A. This is a great goddamn country. It was founded on beautiful ideals and has been supported throughout the ages by brilliant men and women of honor. We've done more growing up as a society in our short history than most of the world has in the last two thousand years. I'm proud of America, and I'm glad to say I live here.

But America has cancer. Hell, America may be causing cancer. This country is diseased, and little is being done to halt the decline, because those in power are riding this virus into a golden age for the upper one percent. I liken it to being glad you have brain cancer "'cause I never liked that dumb 'ol brain, anyway".

We have made leaps and bounds in a small amount of time in the fields of technology, civil rights, medicine, equality, global diplomacy... And yet for all this, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. In my neighborhood there are people who live in the street, and I'm sure it's the same for many of us. I work fifty hours a week to support a very meager existence, and that's with a roommate. It's much worse for almost everyone I know.

This isn't an accident. We are being conquered and colonized, beat down, terrorized by our own government, because if we are docile and stupid and weak, they can do anything we want without fear of recourse.

To answer your question, Jack, I don't really want to leave, I want to repair. I want to fix. I want to mend. For now, it is all I can do to spread awareness and help other people to understand that theres something going on behind the wizards' curtain. So many people are so sheltered and so ignorant (that's ignorant of the facts, not stupid, mind you) that I feel that I, being someone who at least takes an active interest in these issues, should attempt to spread what I know or what I've heard as far as I can. I'd like to at least see people consider other points of view before jumping to conclusions.

I could just as easily believe that the government is persistantly philanthropic and simply plagued with bad fortune as I could that the government is a supremely evil force that creates terrorism against its own people as a means to stir up war fever. I don't claim to know the fact, I simply would like other people to consider the possibilities. Government, I believe, is an inherently corrupt edifice, and I will speak out against it as often as I can, if only for the reason that they have such a poor black-ops track record here in our country. To sum up, it isn't the country I've a problem with, it's the people who run it. And even then, I mean many of them, but not all.

Quick bit of information I'd like to bring up; during the Gulf War, the American forces lost nearly fifty soldiers. Arab civilians lost 750,000 men, women and children. Many of whom in the photos appear to have been shot in the back. Huge riots erupted in places like Cairo, Morocco, Syria and Lebanon. And it wasn't Sadam they were rioting against -- it was us. If I was an Arabian citizen, I'd probably be cheering, too.

Getting to the wreckage itself. Jack. I hope you know how ridiculous you sounded telling me that what I said was stupid. If you don't understand what I implied when I said "the buildings had it coming", allow me to elucidate. The WTT was home of the WTO, a notoriously crooked operation if ever there was one. I don't feel bad that their HQ is now sitting under four stories of rubble. I feel bad that there were people inside. "The buildings had it coming"? Well perhaps not the buildings. The information inside. And the Pentagon? Intel HQ? If it was empty, I wouldn't have been sad to see the whole thing go. I don't trust the CIA or military Intel for myriad reasons I care not to discuss. Suffice it to say that they have too much information and not enough sharing there. If I had my way it'd all be public. And though I wouldn't advocate blowing up the Pentagon (as this would render all this valuable information destroyed), I wouldn't get bleary-eyed and salute the flag, either.

As for your tirade of what amounted to (more or less) "grow up", to that I would ask you to cease your compliance. Yes, yes, I know. I'm young. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, right? As I am not wealthy I haven't the resources or time to be doing what I'd like to be doing. Suffice it to say that I'd be doing something big, something I perceive as positive. Until that time, it is all I can do to help people consider options that they hadn't considered. It sounds to me like you gave up searching for answers. It sounds to me like you gave up, period. Sound a fury might not mean much to you, but to some, it's all we've got at the time. If enough people raised their voice all at once...

...but I won't get in to that. I still try to change the world. I may be ineffectual thus far -- indeed, I may be for the rest of my days, no matter what efforts I make -- but in the words of Ian McKaye, "At least I'm fucking trying. What the fuck have you done?"

And don't try the old "argument by authority" nonsense on me. It doesn't work. Being older doesn't make you wiser, better-read, better-equipped or more worldly. Which isn't to say that you're not. In a few years, I may agree with you. I just doubt it. Your age means nothing to me, other than that you've undoubtedly been around longer than I, and that from my perspective, age has weakened your resolve to change, to battle back, to not go gently into that good night. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't mind your condecension, by the way. I expect to get only what I give. Doesn't raise a welt on my fanny. Promise.

By the way, you seem to have a pretty narrow view of terrorism. Not all terrorists are stupid, petty and nasty. Bear this in mind; Israeli commandos are called 'Freedom Fighers'. Arab commandos are called 'Terrorists'. What's the difference? The name, that's what. Both fight for their respective (albeit radical) causes. One has a more proactive perogative than the other. To be willing to kill civilians wholesale to make your point, you'd have to either be incredibly stupid, ruthlessly methodical beyond comprehension or...the US government. What's the difference between Arab 'terrorism' and what some (note; not all) United States soldiers did in Vietnam?

Now as I said, I don't think that America is some hellhole of pain and misery and that the rest of the world is Shangri-fucking-La. However, I can think of many countries that excel in many venues that the US does not. It's true, what you said. Many people flee to the US from countries where tyranny, misery and poverty naturally prevail. This has to do, in no small part, with the fact that it's really easy to get into the US. Also, world media hypes this place as the land of milk and honey. Of course they all come here from shitholes like Palestine and Lybia. Wouldn't you?

But when's the last time you saw a Swedish immigrant? How about Japanese? Australian? English? Canadian? German? Long time, right? Because these are all pretty nice places, too. Each has their merits and flaws, each has their places in which they excel and places in which one would find themself pulling their hair from their head in mind-numbing anger. Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. They also have the highest teen suicide rate. Sweden has the lowest unemployment and homeless population. They also have the highest AIDS ratio. Canada has socialized medicine and is clean and civil. On the other hand, it's fucking Canada.

No place is perfect, Jack, I readily admit that. But American news propaganda has bullied us into thinking that the world outside our ethnocentric shell is much, much worse than we've been lead to believe. America is not the land of milk and honey, no more than Iraq is a veritable hell on earth where you will be shot for walking down the street by your own people after your sister is raped and gutted. In some places, these are commonplace occurrances, I admit, but it hasn't always been the case. These cases are rare.

China, Malaysia, India, Palestine...these are fucked up places, I admit. But America needs help, too. Badly. I live next door to a woman who calls her children retards and spends their welfare check on alcohol. These children don't bathe. I've called child care on this woman three times. They're so bogged-down that nothing has happened.

America needs our help. But if you can't cut a tumor out with a scalpel, one must try hacking it out with an axe.

The time for scalpels is over. Now...who's going to pick up the axe?

--Avenger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Avenger]

Something I'd like to add;

I don't consider myself an American citizen. I'm glad I live here, especially in contrast to some other nations. But I'll not be so ethnocentric as to claim America as my home. Just as the shit that goes on down the street is none of my business so long as it doesn't spill into my turf (supposedly), the shit that happens in, say, Ireland I'm not supposed to care less about. It isn't my country, it doesn't affect me, why should I care?

I'm a global citizen. A citizen of planet Earth. I'm concerned with what goes on here on our collective home. America has problems, but it isn't the top of my list of priorities. We should be trying to fix the world, not the country.

--Avenger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Jager]

The fourth plane crashed because the passengers learned about the previous crashes and VOTED....yes, voted, to attack the hijackers. One of them was in communication to his wife and told her this. He never called back.

Avenger, either Mexico or Canada would welcome someone with your intelligence, skills, and aptitude. You are a bright guy. Your just a bright guy that I disagree with.

Apep, things what happened at the base happen alot more often than we like to remember. The military takes threats against the US much more seriously and they can do more about it. Like restricting access to a base. It doesn't mean that anyone knew that the planes would be able to hijack the planes, only that some sort of terrorist attack 'might' be emminent.

I have talked to some of my friends in the military and they haven't reported anything out of the ordinary. Even the reservists, who talk too much.

As for Pearl Harbor: Yeah, radio intercepts reveal that we knew some attack by Japan against Pearl Harbor was in the offing. The regional commanders were purposely denied relivant information that would have averted the disaster.

Today's far more active press makes something like this far less likely.

By the way, government employee or not, we did not "have this coming". That kind of reasoning leads to genocide.

[Jager]

Ranger, Jordan is okay and back home in Canada, now.

Bin Laden is worth over $200 million. He doesn't need the CIA. Yes, the CIA helped the Afghanies during the war with the Soviets. Before us, it was the British Empire and Czarist Russia.

Aeon, thanks.

Kirby, there is nothing wrong with you. I remember seeing the Vietnam War on the news (yes, I'm old) and seeing this poor lady going down to get water in Phenom Phen (?). The snipe shot her as she turned to climb back up the bank.

Bad things are happening a world away.

Folks, Bin Laden thinks (apperently, as I haven't spoken to the man) that if America and Western Europe would just leave the Arab world alone, everything would be better for the Arabs (after the slaughter all the Jews, of course). The reverse is true. It was internal instability and the curse of oil that led the West to the Arabs' door. Before that, the Arab world was invading its neighbors and interfering in their internal affairs. No one lives in a vaccum.

[Avenger]

Were that I lived in Mexico, Jager, I would surely be part of, if not leading a Zapatista cell. People call the Zapatista's terrorists, too. But just look at what these people do.

By the way, why'd you refer to Canada and Mexico specifically?

Anyway, you say you disagree, but you didn't say how! C'mon, man! Share! I'm interested!

--Avenger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Avenger (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Jager]

Slow night at work?

I referred to Mexico and Canada because you can get there by train or bus and it isn't that expensive. I have never been to Mexico, but I lived in Canada as a kid. My sister and I were the token Americans. Basically, the Canadians are a great people and have a wonderful country, but you had better like snow.

Ranger and Co. also imply that Ireland is a nice place to live, as well, but I don't think we have connecting bus service to them.

Disagreeing with you:

I don't think this is an American black bag operation. I don't think that the government knew exactly how or when a terrorist attack was going to happen. Somebody threatened us and they took the same percausions that they always took. No bases were attacked (the Pentagon is an administrative center, not an active base).

Bin Laden's name came up because in this Information Age, farmers in Nebraska have some idea who this guy is. The media is speculating and Bin Laden is a name that resonates with the public. Unless the networks and CNN are in on it as well?

The US government, or agents there of, have overthrown governments around the world for over 100 years. Hell, go ask the Haiwians how they came to be in the US, anyway. We arent' angels. Yes, we have greedy, self-interested folks in the government who will want to take advantage of this. It doesn't make it a conspiracy. It makes them poor public servants.

Either these government conpirators are super-bright and phenomonally organized or they will screw up and get caught. That is what our media loves to do. Frankly, if they are that intelligent and motivated, I could be ruled over by a worse lot. At least they are competant. I guess I am selling out justice for order.

A note on Pearl Harbor: The government knew something was going to happen. It wasn't like we conspired with some Japanese admiral to attack us. Their government came to that decision all by themselves. True, we pushed them to the wall with economic sanctions, but they chose war over peace.

We may have given some people just cause to be angry with our government, but they chose to launch the attacks against our civilians. Now, they get to pay for that decision to commit mass murder.

[Jager]

Another note, this one on the health care issue:

Yes, we want the children to live healthy fulfilling lives and not to be treated like shit by their parent(s).

No, we don't want our government intruding into our daily lives telling us everything we can and can't do.

That is the fine line we walk. Social welfare is the surrendering of freedoms. The question becomes just how much freedom do we want to give up to make society better? That is something I certainly don't have the answer to.

Folks, I think that Avenger and I are pretty much alike in that we like to argue and explore different options and opportunities. Politically, I think we make different calls, but that's just what makes me right and perfect and Avenger just plain wrong.

,,

Just kidding about that last bit.

[Kirby1024]

Thanks Jager and Avenger. I also talked to a few other friends of mine on ICQ. They both pointed out that the fact that I'm actually worried about the lack of reaction just proves that I'm still a decent sort of person.

At any rate, there is something else I noticed here. You know when you watch those old disaster movies, and there are those shot of all the people looking into the electronics store, trying to find out the latest news? I was really shocked that out of the whole of today, and the whole of yesterday, that I didn't find that once. The only thing that really came close was when my IT Teacher commandeered on of the TVs so he could watch for news of his friend (who, BTW, is safe - he worked in the WTC, but apparently was out of town that week). I don't know whether it's because people have been listening and watching and reading here so much that they don't have to crowd around, but I swear if I hadn't gotten the news, I would have sworn that nothing out of the ordinary was going on. Mothers were still going out shopping with their children, kids were still hanging around in good spirits, the whole normality of the situation striked me as particularly odd. Again, seeing this is today's society, that's probably not all that surprising, distance and all that, but it just seems so odd.