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Character #1

Poster Name: K

Character Name: The Wish
"I want you to stop Wishing."
"Would you say that you Wish that I stop Wishing?"
"No."

Race/Class/Level: Human Warlock 12/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Mage of The Arcane Order 1.

System: Forgotten Realms

Short Description: This character manipulated several loopholes in the laws of magic to devestate his enemies and survive his brother's magical powers. By casting Wishes out of a custom Ring of Infinite wishes created by Spell-like Wishes from powerful Outsiders (which, as spell-like abilities, can create magic items at no XP or GP cost to the caster, and as Wishes, require no feats to create).

Mostly, he just Wishes his problems away by emulating a vast array of potential spells with Wish.

High-end effects are cast from Divinely Quickened Scrolls created by Wish.

Ability Scores:
Str: 8 (dependant on current templated "human" form gained with Polymorph Any Object)
Dex: 8 (see above)
Con: 8 (See above)
Int: 18 (23 + items)
Wis: 8 (13 + items)
Cha: 18 (34)

Character Sheet:
Diety: None
Alignment: Varies with the current casting of a Contingent Atonement,
Hit Points: Average, but with bumper crops of temp HPs and Con-boosted HPs
Saves: Fort 6/Ref 6/ Will 15(with +6 from a Cloak of Resistance and a Roving +6 for Devil's Own Luck)

Quote:
Progression:
1 Warlock 1 Magical Training(for spellcasting) Precocious Apprentice(for a 2nd level spell)
2 Warlock 2
3 Warlock 3 Supernatural Transformation(Eldritch Blast)
4 Warlock 4
5 Warlock 5
6 Warlock 6 Spell Focus(Abjuration)
7 Warlock 7
8 Warlock 8
9 Warlock 9 Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
10 Warlock 10
11 Warlock 11
12 Warlock 12 Greater Spell Focus(Abjuration)
13 Initiate of the Seven Veils 1/Warlock 12
[To get into IoSV, you need five Abjurations, with one at 4th level. Combined with the Warlock Invocations that are Abjuations effects like Devour Magic. Voracious Dispelling, and Entropic Warding and spell gained from (which count as spells for meeting PrC requirements per the Complete Arcane pg 70) and spells from Magical Training off the Wizard list for more abjurations, while Precocious Apprentice provides the needed ability to cast 2nd level spells]

14 Initiate of the Seven Veils 2/Warlock 12
15 Initiate of the Seven Veils 3/Warlock 12 Sudden widen
16 Initiate of the Seven Veils 4/Warlock 12
17 Initiate of the Seven Veils 5/Warlock 12
18 Initiate of the Seven Veils 6/Warlock 12 Cooperative Spell
19 Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Warlock 12
20 Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Warlock 12

Skills of note:
Use Magic Device: 35 (and takes 10 with Warlock's 4th level power to boot)

Spells of Note:
--Eldritch Might(20th, as a Supernatural power, which punches through SR)
--Full 20th level Warlock casting and Invocations with crazy-go-nuts powers to boot.

Items of Note:
--Ring Of Infinite Divinely Quickened Wishes
(created by an Efreet or Pit Fiend or
whatever's spell-like ability used at the behest of my cast Gate Scroll
bought using my normal treasure).
--Used Scrolls of Gate and Heroism and Quickened Guidance and that Bard +skill spell
--Used Wishes for +5 Inherant Bonuses to all stats
--+6 cloak of Charisma
--Contingent spells(creatd with the Contingent spell feat tat I don't need with a Wish) created by the above Ring with crazy effects like
Atonement spells that change my alignment to match the casting of the Word's spells.
--Contingent Wishes to avert any ill event

What Books are Needed for this Build?
PHB
DMG
Complete Arcane
Player's Guide to Faerun
Savage Species


Character #2
Poster Name: Frank Trollman (ftrollma@ucsc.edu)

Character Name
The Word
"I'm sure you've sinned against something. That
will be your downfall.

Race/Class/Level: The Word is a Human Sorcerer 1/
Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/
Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
Spawn 2/Bard 1. Yes, Really.

System: These characters are from the Forgotten Realms,
although with minimal alteration could be transferred to
other settings.

Short Description: The Word can throw Holy Words and
Blasphemies at caster level 110, as supernatural abilities
that automatically penetrate all SR. Both The Wish and The
Word are immune to both spells, but anything else with
less than 99 hit dice dies without recourse to a saving
throw or spell resistance. Of course, he's also got full
spellcasting in the traditional sense, so he's hardly
powerless against creatures which are immune to his big
trick.

Ability Scores:

Str: 10 (21)
Dex:10 (21)
Con: 12 (21)
Int: 14 (19)
Wis:14 (31)
Cha: 14 (31)

Character Sheet:

The Word distains all deities equally and is Lawful Evil.
He currently looks like a completely non-descript man
somewhere between his twenties and thirties. His height,
weight, and girth are all exactly average, because
he's been transformed back into the platonic ideal of a
“human”. His skin and eye color are the deep tan you get
when you mix all possible human colorations together in a
vat.

Hit Points: 169, Saves: Fort: +16, Will:
+39, Ref: +18

Progression:

Quote:
Using the magic of the Thought Bottle, the Word acually
loses and regains levels
three times, so levels are all shown in the order taken,
with the appropriate levels he
has at that point. Because a lot of levels are being
taken, retaken, and reshuffled, we will always place the
level which is presently being incremented as the first
list level at each point (however transient that point may
be).

First Life: Human
1 Bard 1 Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil
2 Ranger 1/ Bard 1
3 Ranger 2/ Bard 1 Still Spell, rapid
shot
4 Ranger 3/ Bard 1 endurance
5 Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Silent Spell
6 Ur Priest 1/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
cooperative spell
7 Ur Priest 2/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
8 Ur Priest 3/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
9 Ur Priest 4/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 extend
spell
10 Ur Priest 5/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
11 Ur Priest 6/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
12 Ur Priest 7/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
persistent spell
13 Ur Priest 8/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
14 Ur Priest 9/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
15 Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
contingent spell
16 Fighter 1/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard
1 dodge
17 Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard
1 mobility
18 Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen
1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Weapon Finesse, divine persistent
spell
19 Contemplative 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur
Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Spell Focus:
Enchantment (from the domination domain)

Here's where the magic kicks in: The Word stores all of
his copius XP in a Thought Bottle, and is killed by a
Shadow. Based upon his long range plans and hatred of the
gods, it is most probable that he voluntarily is
killed by a Shadow. He uses his own Rebuke Undead ability
to force a Shadow that he created with a Create Undead
spell to kill him. This causes him to transform into a
Shadow Spawn... exactly as he intended.

Second Life: Shadow
He is brought back as a Shadow Spawn. This means that his
effective character level is reset to 10 as per Savage
Species page 210. His stats are now Str -, Dex 14, Con -,
Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13.

10 3 Shadow Hit Dice, Point Blank Shot,
Alertness
11 Bard +1 Cha
12 Bard
13 Bard
14 Bard
15 Emancipated Spawn, +1 Cha
16 Bard
17 Bard
18 Bard
19 Sublime Chord, +1 Cha

Third Life: Rakshasa
The Word does not actually die, but he does undergo a
Ritual of Vitality (Savage Species, page 150), this sets
him back 105,000 XP, leaving him barely enough XP to be
13th level. He can't drop the racial levels until the
Ritual goes off, so instead he loses a bunch of Bard
levels. As per the FAQ, the highest class levels (in this
case the Bard levels) are lost first, reducing him to a
Shadow 10/ Sublime Chord 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1/ Bard 1,
and then replacing the Shadow levels with 14 levels of
Rakshasa. This replaces his physical stats with Str 12,
Dex 14, Con 16, it does not change his mental stats
(although they do go up with the racial class features of
the Rakshasa, as depicted on page 191 of the MM). For
simplicity, Rakshasa abilities that don't stay after the
Word changes his race again and do not affect Prestige
Class entrance are being omitted. He loses all the feats
and skills accumulated during those levels, so
unfortunately he won't have Profession: Astrologer
anymore. Dang!

1 Rakshasa 1 Combat Casting, All Martial
Weapons
2 Rakshasa 2, +2 Int
3 Rakshasa 3
4 Rakshasa 4
5 Rakshasa 5 Alertness
6 Rakshasa 6
7 Rakshasa 7, +2 Wis
8 Rakshasa 8
9 Rakshasa 9, +2 Cha
10 Rakshasa10
11 Rakshasa 11 combat reflexes
12 Rakshasa 12
13 Rakshasa 13, +2 Cha
14 Rakshasa 14
Rakshasa levels hook us up with Tumble, Jump, and the
Language of Ancient Suloise.
15 Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14, +1 Wis
16 Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14
17 Bard 1/Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord
1/Rakshasa 14
18 Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard 1/Sublime Chord
1/Rakshasa 14
19 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard
1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14 elusive target, +1
Wis

Fourth Life: Human Again
The Word undergoes the Ritual of Vitality again, but this
time becomes a lowly human. This removes all of the
Rakshasa levels, so the accumulated feats of comnbat
casting, alertness, and combat reflexes are
lost. But then he picks up 14 new levels by touching the
Thought Bottle again.

1 Emancipated Spawn 1 combat reflexes, sudden
extend
2 Bard 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1
3 Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 elusive target
Elusive Target is not presently legal, but it was legal
when he got it, and the level he got it in has not gone
away, so it sticks around and he can't use it until his
BAB goes up past 6 – such as when he casts a Divine
Persistent Divine Power.
4 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1, +1
Wis
5 Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
Spawn 2/Bard 1
6 Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach
1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 scribe scroll, Inate
Spell: Blasphemy (that's the one from PGtF)
7 Mage of the Arcane Order 1/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
Mage of the Arcane Order, of course, adds to the Sublime
Chord Caster Levels.
8 Mage of the Arcane Order 2/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
sudden empower, +1 Wis
9 Mage of the Arcane Order 3/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy
10 Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
11 Mage of the Arcane Order 5/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
12 Mage of the Arcane Order 6/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
Improved Initiative, +1 Wis
13 Mage of the Arcane Order 7/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
14 Mage of the Arcane Order 8/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
15 Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime
Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
Inate Spell: Holy Word, Supernatural Transformation:
Holy Word
16 Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard
1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn
2/Bard 1 , +1 Wis
17 Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/
Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
Spawn 2/Bard 1 quicken spell
18 Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane
Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach
1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 Great Fortitude
19 Sorcerer 1/ Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage
of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel
Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1

Final Ability Scores: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 8, Wis
20, Cha 20, he also has 5 inherent bonuses to each stat,
and +6 enhancements to each stat – so his final scores
are:

21, 21, 21, 19, 31, 31. Not terribly impressive, but they
don't need to be.


feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil, Still Spell,
rapid shot, endurance,Silent Spell, cooperative spell,
extend spell, persistent spell, contingent spell, dodge,
mobility, Weapon Finesse, divine persistent spell, Spell
Focus: Enchantment, combat reflexes, sudden extend,
elusive target, scribe scroll, Inate Spell: Blasphemy,
sudden empower, Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy,
Improved Initiative, Inate Spell: Holy Word, Supernatural
Transformation: Holy Word, quicken spell, Great Fortitude

Skills of note:
Search: 22 ranks
Disable Device: 22 ranks
Hide: 8+ ranks
Disguise: 10 ranks
Move Silently: 8+ ranks
Knowledge: Arcana 13 ranks
Knowledge: Religion 22 ranks
Spellcraft: 22 ranks

Note: I'm being purposefully vague about exactly how many
skills he has, because he's used the Savage Species
rituals several times – and exactly what happens to your
skills when that happens is up for debate. It is entirely
possible that he still has the Profession: Astrologer, the
Tumble, the Jump, and all that crap left over from his old
races.

Spells of Note:

The Word takes full advantage of the excentricities of the
Ur Priest and the Sublime Chord. The Sublime Chord resets
all of your arcane caster levels to the sum of all of your
arcane caster levels. So in this case, since The Word has
8 separate Arcane Spellcasting classes with a caster
level of 11. If he pulls an Orange Ioun Stone out of his
pocket, all 8 classes increase by one, and all eight of
them are set to the new sum – of 12. Repeat this with 17 more Stones, and we get a grant total of 28 for all his classes. The Ur Priest,
which The Word can use as if he had all 10 levels of it
thanks to his “Recall Class Features” ability of the
Emancipated Spawn class, takes as its caster level half
the sum of all other caster levels. In this case, that's
half of eight times 28, which is 112, plus a base caster
level of 10. So The Word casts all Arcane Spells at level
28, and all Divine spells at level one hundred and
twenty-two.

The most important spells that The Word has are Holy
Word and Blasphemy – both of which can be cast
as spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities 3
times/day. As supernatural abilities. The important part
is the spellcaster levels that they can be cast at, which
is one hundred and ten or higher. The other important part
to keep in mind is that The Word is technically possessed
of every single alignment, which means that when he
casts Blasphemy he is not “not evil”, and when he
casts Holy Word he is not “not good”. This means
that is “evil” for the purposes of Holy Smite, but so
what?

The Word also amuses himself by periodically casting
Clerical buffs on himself and his brother. Who would turn
down an Extended Superior Resistance? It grants a
+6 Resistance Bonus to all saves and lasts over nine days.

Of more limited scope are the Sublime Chord spells. Most
notable among them are Mordenkainen's Disjunction,
Shapechange, Gate, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank,
Greater Teleport, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Mass Charm,
and Modify Memory. Of course, to an extent it doesn't
really matter what spells he knows, because he's also got
a spell pool for being a member of the Arcane Order. He
can tax the spellpool out to half his caster level – which
in this case means that he can suck out 155 spell levels.

Items of Note:
18 Orange Ioun Stones for +caster level each (and more when added together) for 564,000.

They aren't items, exactly, but The Word invested in
several Rituals of Vitality. The Rakshasa transformation
set our hero back 196,000 gp, paid in 14 stages of 14,000
gp. The human transformation was much cheaper – costing
only 7,000 gp. He also underwent two Rituals of Alignment
to gain the [Good] and [Chaotic] subtypes.

The only truly necessary item is the Thought Bottle, that
marvelous trinket from the Complete Arcane.

What books are needed for this build?
Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual,
Savage Species, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine,
Complete Arcane, Player's Guide to Feyrun.

The Duo

Are these characters the perfect duo?

Yes.

The Wish and The Word are the most powerful spellcasters.
Ever. The Word has stolen the powers of the gods
themselves, and The Wish has torn the rigid rules of
arcane power asunder. The two of them flippantly disregard
the guidelines of spells/day limits or caster level
paradigms that so constrain lesser spellcasters. Having
broken free of the self-imposed limitations of Arcane and
Divne Magic, The Wish and The Word can adventure with
confidence against Epic Challenges and gods. There has
never been a published challenge which is a serious threat
to the brothers.

How would the Duo kick ass against the following?

Aberrations/Magical Beasts etc:
The Terrasque is slain in a one/two action of The Word
reciting the Blasphemy of all Blasphemies that instantly
kills it, and The Wish makes the plea that forbids its
return. A single Blasphemy or Holy Word backed up by a
Wish kills it in one round.

Constructs:
Some of those Epic Golems are a problem. Not so much the
poor Colossus, whose Antimagic Field is absolutely no help
at all against The Word's 100% chance of blowing it down
with a Disjunction. But against creatures which are simply
Magic Immune, The Wish pulls out all the stops with his
unlimited Summon Monster VIIIs, as well as formiddable
battlefield shaping prowess. An Adamantine Golem must deal
with the fact that The Wish can wish for intervening Walls
of Iron faster than the Adamant Golem can tear them down –
and The Wish can pull in some teleporting and burrowing
monsters besides. An Adamant Golem must deal with a
bottomless supply of expendable monsters coming from the
other end of an impassable barrier – which it simply
cannot do. Remember: Admantine Golems are not immune to
extraordinary Light Energy damage. They aren't even
resistant to it. With enough Lantern Archons, you can kill
one in a round. The Wish can get enough Lantern Archons.

Failing that, of course, any Construct that The Word can
see is something he can turn himself into, with all of his
buffs still applying (spells don't drop off just because
you are no longer a legal target or Enlarge Person
wouldn't work at all). With his Divine Persistent Divine
Power going 24/7, he can punch out an Adamantine Golem
with little fanfare.

Dragons:
The Wish can wish them a Slime Wave, which does
pretty nasty things to any Dragon large enough to make
these two care. Of course, even a Great Wyrm Prismatic
Dragon “only” has 78 hit dice – which is not enough to
forstall an instant kill by a long shot.

Elementals/Outsiders:
Since the vast majority of outsiders are a snap, and since
The Wish and The Word are very strongly in the Athar camp,
we will deal with their plans to wipe out two appropriate
challenges: Hextor and Heironius. These powerful gods hate
our heroes, which would be very bad if they didn't
constantly benefit from Mind Blank. So The Wish
wishes them into the presence of Hextor, or uses a
Gate out of the Ring of Spell Storing, and The Word
has a readied action with a Supernatural Ability of
Holy Word or a Holy Word as a contingent
spell. In either case, Hextor's puny spell resistance is
rendered moot (either because The Word has a spellcaster
level that is over sixty points higher than Hextor's SR,
or because Supernatural Abilities bypass all SR) and
Hextor dies a horrible death because he's facing a Holy
Word above the magic number of caster level 67. By a
huge margin. If currently necessary, The Wish uses up one
of his Contingency Atonements to survive. If they
used a contingency Holy Word to slay Hextor, The
Word can open up another Gate on his own round to
Heironius and slay him with a contingency Blasphemy
in the very same round.

Undead:
The Atropal only has 66 hit dice, so it can't survive a
single Holy Word from The Word. Also, its Neagtive
Energy Aura can't penetrate The Word's Death Ward, nor can
any of its othe gimics. The most powerful Undead the world
has seen is chaffe before the might of The Word by
himself. To compound such greta fortune, The Wish can Wish
up a pizza, that the brothers might enjoy a meal on the
blasted hillock that stands where the power of detah
itself showed the hubris to make itself manifest in the
form of the malformed fetus of a would-be god.

Traps:
The Word has a substantial Search Skill, and The Wish
loses nothing by replicating a Find Traps spell
with one of his unlimited wishes.

Political Intrigue:
The Wish can replicate such fabulous Bardic Spells as
Glibness with Wishing, and can crank his Bluff
Checks into the low hundreds with little strain. A Bluff
check that high acts as a suggestion, so basically he can
tell people to knock off all the intrigue and start
tearing down the churches – and they'll just go do that.
Also he can read everyone's mind, detect all alignments,
know truth from lies, and fact from fiction.

Diplomatic Maneuvers:
The Wish has access to a number of divinations. That
number is “all of them”. Also they can Diplomacize the
iron out of the ground. Actually, they have to use
Polymorph Any Object for that – but that's really OK. With
functionally limitless wealth in gold, gems, food, and
magic, they can bribe everyone they don't feel like
killing. They can have a truly “big tent” diplomatic
program because The Wish can just wish up anything that
anyone wants as a negotiating strategy carrot, and The
Word can kill basically anyone as a negotiating tactic
stick.

A BBEG/ Mastermind/ Warlord:
The Wish and The Word are themselves undetectable, and
have no particular need for constant territory. It then
becomes merely a question of whether The Wish and The Word
can find the enemy Mastermind – since the Mastermind will
never find them. On arival, The Word can dump a
Disjunction, a truly Irressistable Dance, or a Holy
Word as appropriate. The Wish can use any spell he feels
like; I'm partial to Irrsessistable Dances alternated with
summonings and attack Wishes, but you can have a grab bag
here.
The Wish and The Word can come up with Gather Information
checks that will tell them the kind of toothpaste the
Mastermind's parents used when he was a kid, and have
access to an unlimited number of Communes and Discern
Locations, so finding the guy shouldn't be much of a
problem.

Mobs:
Hordes are of little problem when you can slap a room
clearing spell that will clear the room of any group of
Hecatoncheires, let alone mobs of weaker creatures. The
Word has several such spells, and The Wish has all the
rest.

Overwhelming Odds:
The Word gives his brother the solemn protection of all
the gods, which manifests itself as Spell Resistance,
Death Ward, Etc. at a caster level of 110 (or more, if he
pulls out the other Orange Ioun Stones – they stack). This
means that both of them have SR of 122, as well as a
substantial number of immunities. They can slay any
monster, man, or god ever printed in any sourcebook or
compendium of horrors that I am aware of, often in less
than a round. Nevertheless, should they encounter some
horror from beyond the spheres so horrible, so unspeakable
that it has as yet not been statted, The Wish still
has recourse in that he can undo the very laws of
causality themselves and remove all traces of such an
ill-fated adventure. The Wish of “I wish we never
went on this adventure” is still available. If all else
fails, The Wish and the Word can flea beyond and before
any possible pursuit can even have begun through the
cosmic mulligan.

[Hugin]

Okay, I forwarded this to a DM buddy of mine who not only is way more fair and encouraging of creativity than I could ever manage (meaning he isn't a limiting nazi like I've been accused of being) but also owns every fucking release for DnD 3.5 and has read all of them in addition to the errata's and FAQs. His response is in bold.

His response was crafted for me and I've been given permision to reprint it here so the profanity and general derision isn't directed at anyone person.


> Character #1
>
> Poster Name: K
>
> Character Name: The Wish
> "I want you to stop Wishing."
> "Would you say that you Wish that I stop Wishing?"
> "No."
>
> Race/Class/Level: Human Warlock 12/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Mage
> of The Arcane Order 1.
>
> System: Forgotten Realms
>
> Short Description: This character manipulated several loopholes in the
> laws of magic to devestate his enemies and survive his brother's
> magical powers. By casting Wishes out of a custom Ring of Infinite
> wishes created by Spell-like Wishes from powerful Outsiders (which, as
> spell-like abilities, can create magic items at no XP or GP cost to
> the caster, and as Wishes, require no feats to create).

Ok, just hold the toaster right here kitten.  What acid-waste of a DM
bothered running a game just to let a ring like that out?  If we are
talking straight rules, the recommended wealth guidelines don't allow
an EPIC character of 30th level to spring for this shit.  So... DM's a
fuck-tard but I'll keep going for fun.  P.S. A wish STILL drains the
user of any XP needed to make a magic item, it just gets rid of time.
It can make NON-magical items of a gp value of around 16,000 gp.  They
changed any possibility of relevance to the above in 3.5.

I'd like to point out that I don't believe an infinite wish item is even possible, let alone adding Quicken to it since that would knock it up to a 13th level spell.

> Mostly, he just Wishes his problems away by emulating a vast array of
> potential spells with Wish.

And never levels again.  EVER.  I talked with him further about this. Basically to MAKE a magic item requires the expenditure of XP required for a spell. But wishing for anything other than the basic effects of a Wish requires EXTRA XP that would have to be paid by the user when making the wish.

> High-end effects are cast from Divinely Quickened Scrolls created by Wish.

Funny that USING a scroll period with a warlock's UMD is a standard action.

> Ability Scores:
> Str: 8 (dependant on current templated "human" form gained with
> Polymorph Any Object)
> Dex: 8 (see above)
> Con: 8 (See above)
> Int: 18 (23 + items)
> Wis: 8 (13 + items)
> Cha: 18 (34)
>
> Character Sheet:
> Diety: None
> Alignment: Varies with the current casting of a Contingent Atonement,
> Hit Points: Average, but with bumper crops of temp HPs and Con-boosted HPs
> Saves: Fort 6/Ref 6/ Will 15(with +6 from a Cloak of Resistance and a
> Roving +6 for Devil's Own Luck)

Again, he's got no exp to do any of this after two or three sessions.
Wee, he was fun.  And how did he ever survive that long anyway.

> Quote:
> Progression:
> 1 Warlock 1 Magical Training(for spellcasting) Precocious
> Apprentice(for a 2nd level spell)
> 2 Warlock 2
> 3 Warlock 3 Supernatural Transformation(Eldritch Blast)
> 4 Warlock 4
> 5 Warlock 5
> 6 Warlock 6 Spell Focus(Abjuration)
> 7 Warlock 7
> 8 Warlock 8
> 9 Warlock 9 Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
> 10 Warlock 10
> 11 Warlock 11
> 12 Warlock 12 Greater Spell Focus(Abjuration)
> 13 Initiate of the Seven Veils 1/Warlock 12
> [To get into IoSV, you need five Abjurations, with one at 4th level.
> Combined with the Warlock Invocations that are Abjuations effects like
> Devour Magic. Voracious Dispelling, and Entropic Warding and spell
> gained from (which count as spells for meeting PrC requirements per
> the Complete Arcane pg 70) and spells from Magical Training off the
> Wizard list for more abjurations, while Precocious Apprentice provides
> the needed ability to cast 2nd level spells]

Read your book.  First off, yes, they count as spells as per page 72
of Comp. Arcane, but they DON'T have schools.  Secondly, your poor
bastard DM may want to note even in spell equivalents.  Devour Magic
and Voracious Dispelling are the ONLY two invocations to reference an
abjuration spell at ALL.  Only one of those meets the 4th level+
requirement.  So the Wish has at least 7 levels of bullshit.

> 14 Initiate of the Seven Veils 2/Warlock 12
> 15 Initiate of the Seven Veils 3/Warlock 12 Sudden widen
> 16 Initiate of the Seven Veils 4/Warlock 12
> 17 Initiate of the Seven Veils 5/Warlock 12
> 18 Initiate of the Seven Veils 6/Warlock 12 Cooperative Spell
> 19 Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Warlock 12
> 20 Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Warlock 12
>
> Skills of note:
> Use Magic Device: 35 (and takes 10 with Warlock's 4th level power to boot)

Too bad he ran out of scrolls and exp to make more last session even
with his ring of Utter Dungeon Master Stupidity.

> Spells of Note:
> --Eldritch Might(20th, as a Supernatural power, which punches through SR)

From what?

> --Full 20th level Warlock casting and Invocations with crazy-go-nuts
> powers to boot.

Well no Sevenfold powers since he doesn't and can't qualify.  And the
ring cripples him like a baby.  Go him.

> Items of Note:
> --Ring Of Infinite Divinely Quickened Wishes
> (created by an Efreet or Pit Fiend or
> whatever's spell-like ability used at the behest of my cast Gate Scroll
> bought using my normal treasure).

I laugh so hard here than I want to cry.  You'd have to have a pretty
big reward for the being in question and the character couldn't afford
that either.

> --Used Scrolls of Gate and Heroism and Quickened Guidance and that
> Bard +skill spell
> --Used Wishes for +5 Inherant Bonuses to all stats
> --+6 cloak of Charisma
> --Contingent spells(creatd with the Contingent spell feat tat I don't
> need with a Wish) created by the above Ring with crazy effects like
> Atonement spells that change my alignment to match the casting of the
> Word's spells.
> --Contingent Wishes to avert any ill event
>
> What Books are Needed for this Build?
> PHB
> DMG
> Complete Arcane
> Player's Guide to Faerun
> Savage Species

Bunk, Bunk, Bunk... read the FAQ regarding wish, read Comp Arc, and
buy a DM that would put up with textual rape a bottle of gin and take
away his dice.


> Character #2
> Poster Name: Frank Trollman (ftrollma@ucsc.edu)
>
> Character Name
> The Word
> "I'm sure you've sinned against something. That
> will be your downfall.
>
> Race/Class/Level: The Word is a Human Sorcerer 1/
> Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/
> Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
> Spawn 2/Bard 1. Yes, Really.
>
> System: These characters are from the Forgotten Realms,
> although with minimal alteration could be transferred to
> other settings.
>
> Short Description: The Word can throw Holy Words and
> Blasphemies at caster level 110, as supernatural abilities
> that automatically penetrate all SR. Both The Wish and The
> Word are immune to both spells, but anything else with
> less than 99 hit dice dies without recourse to a saving
> throw or spell resistance. Of course, he's also got full
> spellcasting in the traditional sense, so he's hardly
> powerless against creatures which are immune to his big
> trick.
>
> Ability Scores:
>
> Str: 10 (21)
> Dex:10 (21)
> Con: 12 (21)
> Int: 14 (19)
> Wis:14 (31)
> Cha: 14 (31)
>
> Character Sheet:
>
> The Word distains all deities equally and is Lawful Evil.
> He currently looks like a completely non-descript man
> somewhere between his twenties and thirties. His height,
> weight, and girth are all exactly average, because
> he's been transformed back into the platonic ideal of a
> "human". His skin and eye color are the deep tan you get
> when you mix all possible human colorations together in a
> vat.
>
> Hit Points: 169, Saves: Fort: +16, Will:
> +39, Ref: +18
>
> Progression:
>
> Quote:
> Using the magic of the Thought Bottle, the Word acually
> loses and regains levels
> three times, so levels are all shown in the order taken,
> with the appropriate levels he
> has at that point. Because a lot of levels are being
> taken, retaken, and reshuffled, we will always place the
> level which is presently being incremented as the first
> list level at each point (however transient that point may
> be).

At this point my eyes rolled up into my head for a good while.
Thought Bottle cannot ANYWHERE in the description "store levels",  its
a copy.  A reminder to bring you back to where you were if you lose
levels.  I assume Mage of the Arcane Order is a typo but may be due to
lack of understanding of how the item works I'm not sure but
regardless its wrong..

> First Life: Human

As above this would be the only life... but.. whatever.

> 1 Bard 1 Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil
> 2 Ranger 1/ Bard 1
> 3 Ranger 2/ Bard 1 Still Spell, rapid
> shot
> 4 Ranger 3/ Bard 1 endurance
> 5 Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Silent Spell
> 6 Ur Priest 1/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> cooperative spell
> 7 Ur Priest 2/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> 8 Ur Priest 3/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> 9 Ur Priest 4/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 extend
> spell
> 10 Ur Priest 5/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> 11 Ur Priest 6/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> 12 Ur Priest 7/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> persistent spell
> 13 Ur Priest 8/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> 14 Ur Priest 9/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> 15 Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
> contingent spell
> 16 Fighter 1/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard
> 1 dodge
> 17 Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard
> 1 mobility
> 18 Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen
> 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Weapon Finesse, divine persistent
> spell
> 19 Contemplative 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur
> Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Spell Focus:
> Enchantment (from the domination domain)
>
> Here's where the magic kicks in: The Word stores all of
> his copius XP in a Thought Bottle, and is killed by a
> Shadow. Based upon his long range plans and hatred of the
> gods, it is most probable that he voluntarily is
> killed by a Shadow. He uses his own Rebuke Undead ability
> to force a Shadow that he created with a Create Undead
> spell to kill him. This causes him to transform into a
> Shadow Spawn... exactly as he intended.

Wow is he dumb.  Based on the magic (spells - modify memory and
demand) that thought bottle uses, its clearly mind-affecting and any
DM with even a single vertebrae, let alone a SPINE will let you know
that upon becoming a shadow, he is now IMMUNE to mind-affecting magic.
Oh no!   His precious XP is in the bottle and he can't have it -
EVER.

> Second Life: Shadow
> He is brought back as a Shadow Spawn. This means that his
> effective character level is reset to 10 as per Savage
> Species page 210. His stats are now Str -, Dex 14, Con -,
> Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13.

No.  He gains the first level of the Shadow transformational class.
He then gets joy of being a 1 HD shadow and spending level upon level
getting to the point where he can EVER get a class level again.   A
paladin or cleric probably turns him and he fades to umbral tatters.
Ooops.  He's lucky, sneaky and his DMs an idiot?  He makes it to tenth
level?  Oh wait.. there is that little tricky mind-affecting snag...
yay!  I'm a lame shadow!  My rivals and friends are pushing level 14
while you've been dicking around with this.  Oh wait, no their epic,
because you've added a whole new life of idiocy.

> 10 3 Shadow Hit Dice, Point Blank Shot,
> Alertness

Sure after regaining all those levels from a 1HD shadow.. yay you!

> 11 Bard +1 Cha
> 12 Bard
> 13 Bard
> 14 Bard
> 15 Emancipated Spawn, +1 Cha
> 16 Bard
> 17 Bard
> 18 Bard
> 19 Sublime Chord, +1 Cha

Now mind you.. this is where the character AT BEST ever gets.  If you
have a nice or mentally disabled DM.  He's a 13 HD shadow, with some
bard levels and really cool memories that he can't experience.   But
we'll play on for the fun of it.

> Third Life: Rakshasa
> The Word does not actually die, but he does undergo a
> Ritual of Vitality (Savage Species, page 150), this sets
> him back 105,000 XP, leaving him barely enough XP to be
> 13th level. He can't drop the racial levels until the
> Ritual goes off, so instead he loses a bunch of Bard
> levels. As per the FAQ, the highest class levels (in this
> case the Bard levels) are lost first, reducing him to a
> Shadow 10/ Sublime Chord 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1/ Bard 1,
> and then replacing the Shadow levels with 14 levels of
> Rakshasa.

As a side note here... even if the bottle did mysteriously work.  He
no longer qualifies for the PrC and thus loses all of its powers even
though he still has the level.  But really "highest class levels" is
sight read about, because its highest in progression, not actual
level.  So the Sublime Chord comes off first, but even if it didn't
its powers are gone anyway.  Also, unless the DM was still sucking his
crack pipe, shadow is a template, and racial so he really becomes a
1st level Rakshasa Shadow waiting to level through all those racial
levels again!  Weeee!  Oh wait, only if we can't read.  A Raksasha
can't be a shadow... no we have serious problems.  Our VERY generous
DM might eat your levels of Shadow instead and leave you a Rakshasa
Bard 7, if he was nice, or stupid, which he'd obviously have to be.

>This replaces his physical stats with Str 12,
> Dex 14, Con 16, it does not change his mental stats
> (although they do go up with the racial class features of
> the Rakshasa, as depicted on page 191 of the MM). For
> simplicity, Rakshasa abilities that don't stay after the
> Word changes his race again and do not affect Prestige
> Class entrance are being omitted. He loses all the feats
> and skills accumulated during those levels, so
> unfortunately he won't have Profession: Astrologer
> anymore. Dang!
>
> 1 Rakshasa 1 Combat Casting, All Martial
> Weapons
> 2 Rakshasa 2, +2 Int
> 3 Rakshasa 3
> 4 Rakshasa 4
> 5 Rakshasa 5 Alertness
> 6 Rakshasa 6
> 7 Rakshasa 7, +2 Wis
> 8 Rakshasa 8
> 9 Rakshasa 9, +2 Cha
> 10 Rakshasa10
> 11 Rakshasa 11 combat reflexes
> 12 Rakshasa 12
> 13 Rakshasa 13, +2 Cha
> 14 Rakshasa 14
> Rakshasa levels hook us up with Tumble, Jump, and the
> Language of Ancient Suloise.
> 15 Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14, +1 Wis
> 16 Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14
> 17 Bard 1/Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord
> 1/Rakshasa 14
> 18 Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard 1/Sublime Chord
> 1/Rakshasa 14
> 19 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard
> 1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14 elusive target, +1
> Wis

As we note, he's not a shadow at this point, or a Sublime Chord, or
his PrC Level is useless anyway.... so yeah... He's a Rakshasa Bard 7.
Quake and terror. Not a shadow, which would have to make him 30+ level
anyway, but can't since only humanoids can be shadows.  Ooops.

> Fourth Life: Human Again
> The Word undergoes the Ritual of Vitality again, but this
> time becomes a lowly human. This removes all of the
> Rakshasa levels, so the accumulated feats of comnbat
> casting, alertness, and combat reflexes are
> lost. But then he picks up 14 new levels by touching the
> Thought Bottle again.

Hmmm.. how many ways is this wrong.

1) The thought bottle contains the memories of a human 19
Contemplative 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger
3/ Bard 1.  We can look at this as:

    A) An exact image that a nice, liberal DM might allow a confused
power-starved idiot to repent and change his character back to the
exact same as he was before the transformation.   The Thought Bottle
is a save point.  You've replayed the game, so you either reload the
old save, or keep playing the new.

    B) Won't work the 20th level+ character he's already higher than
the bottle image (19th) so it restores NOTHING.

    C) The ritual of transformation turned you into a human yes, but
beyond this the DM is obliged to offer you NOTHING.  You could be a
new person entirely and thus unable to access someone Else's memories
in the bottle, but free to store your 7 levels of bard!

2)  It restores levels lost to death and level drain.  It never states
that a ritual of transformation is a eligible loss, and as read in
Savage Species is a totally voluntary process.  The DM would be well
in his rights to laugh at this application of the bottle.

3) And unless you lowered your SR, the bottle can't even affect you.
(CL 13 vs 34+ SR)

> 1 Emancipated Spawn 1 combat reflexes, sudden
> extend
> 2 Bard 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1
> 3 Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 elusive target
> Elusive Target is not presently legal, but it was legal
> when he got it, and the level he got it in has not gone
> away, so it sticks around and he can't use it until his
> BAB goes up past 6 – such as when he casts a Divine
> Persistent Divine Power.
> 4 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1, +1
> Wis
> 5 Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
> Spawn 2/Bard 1
> 6 Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach
> 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 scribe scroll, Inate
> Spell: Blasphemy (that's the one from PGtF)
> 7 Mage of the Arcane Order 1/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> Mage of the Arcane Order, of course, adds to the Sublime
> Chord Caster Levels.
> 8 Mage of the Arcane Order 2/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> sudden empower, +1 Wis
> 9 Mage of the Arcane Order 3/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy
> 10 Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> 11 Mage of the Arcane Order 5/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> 12 Mage of the Arcane Order 6/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> Improved Initiative, +1 Wis
> 13 Mage of the Arcane Order 7/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> 14 Mage of the Arcane Order 8/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> 15 Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime
> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
> Inate Spell: Holy Word, Supernatural Transformation:
> Holy Word
> 16 Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard
> 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn
> 2/Bard 1 , +1 Wis
> 17 Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/
> Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
> Spawn 2/Bard 1 quicken spell
> 18 Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane
> Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach
> 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 Great Fortitude
> 19 Sorcerer 1/ Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage
> of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel
> Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>
> Final Ability Scores: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 8, Wis
> 20, Cha 20, he also has 5 inherent bonuses to each stat,
> and +6 enhancements to each stat – so his final scores
> are:

From where... Seven levels of bard?  Just stick with the first
progression its almost good.

> 21, 21, 21, 19, 31, 31. Not terribly impressive, but they
> don't need to be.


> feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil, Still Spell,
> rapid shot, endurance,Silent Spell, cooperative spell,
> extend spell, persistent spell, contingent spell, dodge,
> mobility, Weapon Finesse, divine persistent spell, Spell
> Focus: Enchantment, combat reflexes, sudden extend,
> elusive target, scribe scroll, Inate Spell: Blasphemy,
> sudden empower, Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy,
> Improved Initiative, Inate Spell: Holy Word, Supernatural
> Transformation: Holy Word, quicken spell, Great Fortitude

No.  20th level character, Human 7+ Bonus Feat.  Above reasons why
entirely wrong should suffice.

> Skills of note:
> Search: 22 ranks
> Disable Device: 22 ranks
> Hide: 8+ ranks
> Disguise: 10 ranks
> Move Silently: 8+ ranks
> Knowledge: Arcana 13 ranks
> Knowledge: Religion 22 ranks
> Spellcraft: 22 ranks
>
> Note: I'm being purposefully vague about exactly how many
> skills he has, because he's used the Savage Species
> rituals several times – and exactly what happens to your
> skills when that happens is up for debate. It is entirely
> possible that he still has the Profession: Astrologer, the
> Tumble, the Jump, and all that crap left over from his old
> races.

They go away, like everything else.

> Spells of Note:
>
> The Word takes full advantage of the excentricities of the
> Ur Priest and the Sublime Chord. The Sublime Chord resets
> all of your arcane caster levels to the sum of all of your
> arcane caster levels. So in this case, since The Word has
> 8 separate Arcane Spellcasting classes with a caster
> level of 11. If he pulls an Orange Ioun Stone out of his
> pocket, all 8 classes increase by one, and all eight of
> them are set to the new sum – of 12. Repeat this with 17 more Stones,
> and we get a grant total of 28 for all his classes. The Ur Priest,
> which The Word can use as if he had all 10 levels of it
> thanks to his "Recall Class Features" ability of the
> Emancipated Spawn class, takes as its caster level half
> the sum of all other caster levels. In this case, that's
> half of eight times 28, which is 112, plus a base caster
> level of 10. So The Word casts all Arcane Spells at level
> 28, and all Divine spells at level one hundred and
> twenty-two.

So many of these classes can't exist in the same build for so many reasons.

> The most important spells that The Word has are Holy
> Word and Blasphemy – both of which can be cast
> as spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities 3
> times/day. As supernatural abilities. The important part
> is the spellcaster levels that they can be cast at, which
> is one hundred and ten or higher. The other important part
> to keep in mind is that The Word is technically possessed
> of every single alignment, which means that when he
> casts Blasphemy he is not "not evil", and when he
> casts Holy Word he is not "not good". This means
> that is "evil" for the purposes of Holy Smite, but so
> what?

The actually character referenced by this at the most GENEROUS of
interpretations is well above 70th level.  And as such should be
facing appropriate CRs like Gods, which automatically save versus the
spells, and are immune to his mortal magic... he better get
creative...

> The Word also amuses himself by periodically casting
> Clerical buffs on himself and his brother. Who would turn
> down an Extended Superior Resistance? It grants a
> +6 Resistance Bonus to all saves and lasts over nine days.
>
> Of more limited scope are the Sublime Chord spells. Most
> notable among them are Mordenkainen's Disjunction,
> Shapechange, Gate, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank,
> Greater Teleport, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Mass Charm,
> and Modify Memory. Of course, to an extent it doesn't
> really matter what spells he knows, because he's also got
> a spell pool for being a member of the Arcane Order. He
> can tax the spellpool out to half his caster level – which
> in this case means that he can suck out 155 spell levels.
>
> Items of Note:
> 18 Orange Ioun Stones for +caster level each (and more when added
> together) for 564,000.
>
> They aren't items, exactly, but The Word invested in
> several Rituals of Vitality. The Rakshasa transformation
> set our hero back 196,000 gp, paid in 14 stages of 14,000
> gp. The human transformation was much cheaper – costing
> only 7,000 gp. He also underwent two Rituals of Alignment
> to gain the [Good] and [Chaotic] subtypes.
>
> The only truly necessary item is the Thought Bottle, that
> marvelous trinket from the Complete Arcane.
>
> What books are needed for this build?
> Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual,
> Savage Species, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine,
> Complete Arcane, Player's Guide to Feyrun.
>
> The Duo
>
> Are these characters the perfect duo?
>
> Yes.
>
> The Wish and The Word are the most powerful spellcasters.
> Ever. The Word has stolen the powers of the gods
> themselves, and The Wish has torn the rigid rules of
> arcane power asunder. The two of them flippantly disregard
> the guidelines of spells/day limits or caster level
> paradigms that so constrain lesser spellcasters. Having
> broken free of the self-imposed limitations of Arcane and
> Divne Magic, The Wish and The Word can adventure with
> confidence against Epic Challenges and gods. There has
> never been a published challenge which is a serious threat
> to the brothers.

No.

The Duo don't exist.

The are fictitious and illegal in so many ways that even a 2nd Edition
sollipsism can't believe in them.  I cut the rest of that crap since
it relies on ANY of the above being possible, which, its not.

This fails as evidence of a "broken system" and is simply evidence of
a broken DM who may not even be literate.  These yahoos are designed
by the same inbreds that have 3rd generation Vampires by their second
session of the Masquerade, and build champions character with
universal range powers bought from their bed rest's worth of DisAds.

Systems are flawed.

A good game needs a good DM - period.

[Endeavor]

Wheee... people making rules mountains over molehills.

This is why I do not like DnD. There's too many munchkins that make it their life to try to verify thier loopholed monster of a character... then when a DM smashes, the munchkin decides to destroy the game.

Lather rinse repeat with new systems. It's not d20 or other rules versions that are broke. The WHOLE GAME is.

[Edward]

Yes, yes. I know you hate anything and everything connected with DnD. Good on you. Not everyone feels the same way though. Vanguard provided this at my request because of a conversation she and I had in chat. It's no big deal.

[Alex Craft]

Actually, d20 is a pretty solid system.  Kind of clunky, IMO, but it works reasonably well, and the books are pretty consistent (as opposed to, say, Aberrant).  The rules-heavy approach actually makes it considerably more difficult to abuse, so long as the DM knows the rules well.

I do tend to find the hyper-thorough, systematic nature of the rules incompatible with my own GMing style - I'm more of an Amber kind of guy, where your character sheet has a grand total of four or five numbers on it, depending.  ( ;

[Dreamer]

D20 has so many problems that I can't think of any redeaming future in the system other than it is not as bad others.

It can be fun, but nearly every "bonus" it has is a fault.

[Dreamer]

Note: Frank is a friend, and wile I think of a good person he is not me. He is a bit harsh at times.

> Okay, I forwarded this to a DM buddy of mine who not
>only is way more
> fair and encouraging of creativity than I could ever
>manage (meaning
> he isn't a limiting nazi like I've been accused of
>being) but also
> owns every fucking release for DnD 3.5 and has read all
>of them in
> addition to the errata's and FAQs. His response is in
>bold.
>
> His response was crafted for me and I've been given
>permision to
> reprint it here so the profanity and general derision
>isn't directed
> at anyone person.
>
>
>> Character #1
>>
>> Poster Name: K
>>
>> Character Name: The Wish
>> "I want you to stop Wishing."
>> "Would you say that you Wish that I stop Wishing?"
>> "No."
>>
>> Race/Class/Level: Human Warlock 12/Initiate of the Seven
>>Veils 7/Mage
>> of The Arcane Order 1.
>>
>> System: Forgotten Realms
>>
>> Short Description: This character manipulated several
>>loopholes in the
>> laws of magic to devestate his enemies and survive his
>>brother's
>> magical powers. By casting Wishes out of a custom Ring
>>of Infinite
>> wishes created by Spell-like Wishes from powerful
>>Outsiders (which, as
>> spell-like abilities, can create magic items at no XP or
>>GP cost to
>> the caster, and as Wishes, require no feats to create).
  
> Ok, just hold the toaster right here kitten. What
>acid-waste of a DM
> bothered running a game just to let a ring like that
>out? If we are
> talking straight rules, the recommended wealth
>guidelines don't allow
> an EPIC character of 30th level to spring for this shit.
>So... DM's a
> fuck-tard but I'll keep going for fun. P.S. A wish STILL
>drains the
> user of any XP needed to make a magic item, it just gets
>rid of time.
> It can make NON-magical items of a gp value of around
>16,000 gp. They
> changed any possibility of relevance to the above in
>3.5.

Actually, it can make any MAGICAL ITEM as well, in fact
the 3rd edition version couldn't make the infinite wishes
ring (because there was a hard cap),the 3.5 can. Its the
seventh bulleted point "create a magic item or add to the
powers of an existing magic item." I realize that it must
have been very difficult to read that far, as the 6th
bulletted point allows you to make non-magical items of up
to 25,000 gp in value.

Regardless, the specific rules are that the XP cost of the
spell increases by twice the XP cost of the item. An
infinite wishes item costs a not-inconsiderable 512,960 XP
cost to make the normal way. That means that the XP
component of the spell to create one instantaneously is
1,030,920 XP. Fortunately, we are using Wish as a
Spell-like ability here, so we don't actually have to pay
the XP component (as detailed on page 315 of the Monster
Manual). Good thing, because if we actually had to pay
that XP, we'd need to be one thousand and thirty first
level just have it all at once.
  
> I'd like to point out that I don't believe an infinite
>wish item is
> even possible, let alone adding Quicken to it since that
>would knock
> it up to a 13th level spell.

Actually, it's still a 9th level spell, because it is
Divine Metamagic Quickened. That means that the creator
had to pay five turning checks for every full day he
worked on the item, but the spell level wasn't increased
at all. Remember, Wish obviates the need for feats to make
the item, so you can actually take advantage of Divine
Metgamagic from page 80 of the Complete Divine.

>> Mostly, he just Wishes his problems away by emulating a
>>vast array of
>> potential spells with Wish.

> And never levels again. EVER. I talked with him further
>about this.
> Basically to MAKE a magic item requires the expenditure
>of XP required
> for a spell. But wishing for anything other than the
>basic effects of
> a Wish requires EXTRA XP that would have to be paid by
>the user when
> making the wish.

Um... no it doesn't. The XP cost of Wish is variable, and
you have to pay that full variable cost if you are casting
it normally. But a Wish used as a spell-like ability or
cast from a magic item waves the XP costs, regardless of
how much it WOULD HAVE BEEN. That's what happens when the
XP costs are listed under the line "XP Cost:" in the spell
entry, it's part of the XP component. So if you don't have
to pay that cost for any reason, you don't pay it no
matter how high you scam it to be if it had been paid.
  
>> High-end effects are cast from Divinely Quickened
>>Scrolls created by
> Wish.
  
>Funny that USING a scroll period with a warlock's UMD is
>a standard
> action.

Um... using UMD is a reflexive action. Activating the
scroll takes an amount of time that is (according to page
213 of the 3.5 DMG):

"Activating a magic item is standard action unless the
item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting
time of a spell is the time required to activate the same
power in an item, whther it's A SCROLL, a wand, or a pair
of boots."

Emphasis is, of course, mine. So the time to cast a
Divinely quickened Gate is one Swift Action, so that's the
time it takes to activate a Divinely Quickened Gate
Scroll.

But nice try.

> Too bad he ran out of scrolls and exp to make more last
>session even
> with his ring of Utter Dungeon Master Stupidity.

I've eliminated most of your complaints, because they have
a tendency to be "HOW CUM U HAV XP?!" over and over again.
If you want, now that you know how we have experience
points left over, you're welcome to go back and have
actual complaints. As is, it's just sort of sad.
  
>> Spells of Note:
>> --Eldritch Might(20th, as a Supernatural power, which
>>punches
> through SR)
>
>From what?

Supernatural Transformation. Since we made this write-up,
Supernatural Transformation was errataed to not be
applicable to Eldritch Blast. But at the time, it was
legit.


>> Items of Note:
>> --Ring Of Infinite Divinely Quickened Wishes
>> (created by an Efreet or Pit Fiend or
>> whatever's spell-like ability used at the behest of my
>>cast Gate Scroll
>> bought using my normal treasure).

> I laugh so hard here than I want to cry. You'd have to
>have a pretty
> big reward for the being in question and the character
>couldn't afford
> that either.

You didn't actually read the whole thing, did you? The
being in question doesn't even need to know this has
happened, since The Word has the power to borrow other
creature's Spell-like abilities. So the whole experience
goes like this:

* Planar Bind an Efreet.
* The Word copies the Efreet's Wish Granting power to
grant any mortal wishes for zero XP cost.
* The Wish makes his wish, it is granted, and the cheese
stands alone.

You can even let the Efreet go home, or kill it, before
the wish is made.
  
>> --Used Scrolls of Gate and Heroism and Quickened
>>Guidance and that
>> Bard +skill spell
>> --Used Wishes for +5 Inherant Bonuses to all stats
>> --+6 cloak of Charisma
>> --Contingent spells(creatd with the Contingent spell
>>feat tat I don't
>> need with a Wish) created by the above Ring with crazy
>>effects like
>> Atonement spells that change my alignment to match the
>>casting of the
>> Word's spells.
>> --Contingent Wishes to avert any ill event
>>
>> What Books are Needed for this Build?
>> PHB
>> DMG
>> Complete Arcane
>> Player's Guide to Faerun
>> Savage Species

> Bunk, Bunk, Bunk... read the FAQ regarding wish, read
>Comp Arc

Done, done, and done. I'll have my hat back now.

>> Character #2
>> Poster Name: Frank Trollman (ftrollma@ucsc.edu)
>>
>> Character Name
>> The Word
>> "I'm sure you've sinned against something. That
>> will be your downfall.
>>
>> Race/Class/Level: The Word is a Human Sorcerer 1/
>> Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order
>>9/
>> Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
>> Spawn 2/Bard 1. Yes, Really.
>>
>> System: These characters are from the Forgotten Realms,
>> although with minimal alteration could be transferred to
>> other settings.
>>
>> Short Description: The Word can throw Holy Words and
>> Blasphemies at caster level 110, as supernatural
>>abilities
>> that automatically penetrate all SR. Both The Wish and
>>The
>> Word are immune to both spells, but anything else with
>> less than 99 hit dice dies without recourse to a saving
>> throw or spell resistance. Of course, he's also got full
>> spellcasting in the traditional sense, so he's hardly
>> powerless against creatures which are immune to his big
>> trick.
>>
>> Ability Scores:
>>
>> Str: 10 (21)
>> Dex:10 (21)
>> Con: 12 (21)
>> Int: 14 (19)
>> Wis:14 (31)
>> Cha: 14 (31)
>>
>> Character Sheet:
>>
>> The Word distains all deities equally and is Lawful
>>Evil.
>> He currently looks like a completely non-descript man
>> somewhere between his twenties and thirties. His height,
>> weight, and girth are all exactly average, because
>> he's been transformed back into the platonic ideal of a
>> "human". His skin and eye color are the deep tan you get
>> when you mix all possible human colorations together in
>>a
>> vat.
>>
>> Hit Points: 169, Saves: Fort: +16, Will:
>> +39, Ref: +18
>>
>> Progression:
>>
>> Quote:
>> Using the magic of the Thought Bottle, the Word acually
>> loses and regains levels
>> three times, so levels are all shown in the order taken,
>> with the appropriate levels he
>> has at that point. Because a lot of levels are being
>> taken, retaken, and reshuffled, we will always place the
>> level which is presently being incremented as the first
>> list level at each point (however transient that point
>>may
>> be).

> At this point my eyes rolled up into my head for a good
>while.
> Thought Bottle cannot ANYWHERE in the description "store
>levels", its
> a copy. A reminder to bring you back to where you were
>if you lose
> levels. I assume Mage of the Arcane Order is a typo but
>may be due to
> lack of understanding of how the item works I'm not sure
>but
> regardless its wrong..

Great. Now that you've gone on to some sort of wild
speculation as to how the Thought Bottle is supposed to
work. Here's how it actually works:

"Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level
loss as a restoration can, but is effective against level
loss that even restoration can't undo (including levels
lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by
magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user's
experience has been stored within the bottle, he can
subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP to
exactly what it was when last stored"

It restores you to an exactl amount of XP, it doesn't
restore you to an exact level configuration. If the old
level configuration is impossible (for example: because
you have in the interim gained levels in other classes),
the thought bottle has no provision about swapping levels
out.

But with all your fist pounding, I'm sure you know what it
says without having to read the actual text, neh?

>> First Life: Human
  
> As above this would be the only life... but.. whatever.

This sour grapes thing, where you raise an objection, and
then keep making the same one over and over again, is
retarded.
  
>> 1 Bard 1 Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil
>> 2 Ranger 1/ Bard 1
>> 3 Ranger 2/ Bard 1 Still Spell, rapid
>> shot
>> 4 Ranger 3/ Bard 1 endurance
>> 5 Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Silent Spell
>> 6 Ur Priest 1/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> cooperative spell
>> 7 Ur Priest 2/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> 8 Ur Priest 3/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> 9 Ur Priest 4/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 extend
>> spell
>> 10 Ur Priest 5/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> 11 Ur Priest 6/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> 12 Ur Priest 7/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> persistent spell
>> 13 Ur Priest 8/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> 14 Ur Priest 9/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> 15 Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1
>> contingent spell
>> 16 Fighter 1/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard
>> 1 dodge
>> 17 Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard
>> 1 mobility
>> 18 Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen
>> 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Weapon Finesse, divine persistent
>> spell
>> 19 Contemplative 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur
>> Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Spell Focus:
>> Enchantment (from the domination domain)
>>
>> Here's where the magic kicks in: The Word stores all of
>> his copius XP in a Thought Bottle, and is killed by a
>> Shadow. Based upon his long range plans and hatred of
>>the
>> gods, it is most probable that he voluntarily is
>> killed by a Shadow. He uses his own Rebuke Undead
>>ability
>> to force a Shadow that he created with a Create Undead
>> spell to kill him. This causes him to transform into a
>> Shadow Spawn... exactly as he intended.

> Wow is he dumb. Based on the magic (spells - modify
>memory and
> demand) that thought bottle uses, its clearly
>mind-affecting and any
> DM with even a single vertebrae, let alone a SPINE will
>let you know
> that upon becoming a shadow, he is now IMMUNE to
>mind-affecting magic.
> Oh no! His precious XP is in the bottle and he can't
>have it -
> EVER.

That's about the thinnest objection I've ever seen. Things
have the [Mind Affecting] tag on them iff they say they
do. You might as well be arguing that Flaming Swords have
a 400 foot range because they require Fireball to
manufacture!

>> Second Life: Shadow
>> He is brought back as a Shadow Spawn. This means that
>>his
>> effective character level is reset to 10 as per Savage
>> Species page 210. His stats are now Str -, Dex 14, Con
>>-,
>> Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13.

> No. He gains the first level of the Shadow
>transformational class.

No, as per the Shadow description on page 221 of the 3.5
Monster Manual, he comes into play as a Shadow Spawn. As
per Savage Species, a Shadow Spawn has an Effective
Character Level of 10.

> He then gets joy of being a 1 HD shadow and spending
>level upon level
> getting to the point where he can EVER get a class level
>again. A
> paladin or cleric probably turns him and he fades to
>umbral tatters.
> Ooops. He's lucky, sneaky and his DMs an idiot? He makes
>it to tenth
> level? Oh wait.. there is that little tricky
>mind-affecting snag...
> yay! I'm a lame shadow! My rivals and friends are
>pushing level 14
> while you've been dicking around with this. Oh wait, no
>their epic,
> because you've added a whole new life of idiocy.

Blah blah blah. No. He spends two full rounds getting
himself a new lease on life. The only difficult part is
keeping him alive while the original Shadow still controls
him. But The Wish actually has that covered, so it's all
good.

>> 10 3 Shadow Hit Dice, Point Blank Shot,
>> Alertness
  
> Sure after regaining all those levels from a 1HD
>shadow.. yay you!

I have honestly no idea where you got the idea that anyone
ever turned into a one hit die shadow. There aren't even
rules in the Monster Manual for 1 hit die shadows.
  
>> 11 Bard +1 Cha
>> 12 Bard
>> 13 Bard
>> 14 Bard
>> 15 Emancipated Spawn, +1 Cha
>> 16 Bard
>> 17 Bard
>> 18 Bard
>> 19 Sublime Chord, +1 Cha

>> Third Life: Rakshasa
>> The Word does not actually die, but he does undergo a
>> Ritual of Vitality (Savage Species, page 150), this sets
>> him back 105,000 XP, leaving him barely enough XP to be
>> 13th level. He can't drop the racial levels until the
>> Ritual goes off, so instead he loses a bunch of Bard
>> levels. As per the FAQ, the highest class levels (in
>>this
>> case the Bard levels) are lost first, reducing him to a
>> Shadow 10/ Sublime Chord 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1/ Bard 1,
>> and then replacing the Shadow levels with 14 levels of
>> Rakshasa.

> As a side note here... even if the bottle did
>mysteriously work. He
> no longer qualifies for the PrC and thus loses all of
>its powers even
> though he still has the level.

No he doesn't. DMG page 176:

"Unlike the basic classes found in the Player's Handbook,
characters must meet requirements before they can take
their first level of a prestige class."

Perhaps you were thinking of the Third Edition Rules,
where if you lost the requirements for a PrC, you lost the
abilities? Regardless, those aren't the rules in 3.5.

And a damned good thing it is, because The Word has a lot
of levels of Ur Priest. And the prerequisites are that you
DON'T have any Divine Spellcasting, and the first level
ability gives you Divine Spellcasting. If this were 3rd
edition, and losing prereqs made you lose class abilities,
he's be in a lot of trouble, wouldn't he? In fact, all Ur
Priests would, since their class features would make hem
lose their class features...

> But really "highest class
>levels" is
> sight read about, because its highest in progression,
>not actual
> level.

No it isn't. Highest in progression doesn't make any
sense. That would be "latest level". But the FAQ example
is that a Fighter/Wizard loses a Fighter level if he has
MORE FIGHTER LEVELS, not if he took Fighter Levels latest.

> So the Sublime Chord comes off first, but even if
>it didn't
> its powers are gone anyway.

It comes off second, AND the powers stay. Wrong on both
counts. Do you seem to be a little flacid in the actual
page citations? Yes you do.

> Also, unless the DM was
>still sucking his
> crack pipe, shadow is a template,

Shadow is a monter in the Monster Manual, on page 221.
That monster is detailed as a class in Savage Species.
There is ALSO a template called (variously) Shadow
Creature and Shade Creature. But that's:

1. Not what you turn into when you become a Shadow Spawn
and
2. Not actually important, since that's not how the Ritual
of Vitality works. Any racial templates you have pop off
when the ritual is performed.

> and racial so he
>really becomes a
> 1st level Rakshasa Shadow waiting to level through all
>those racial
> levels again! Weeee! Oh wait, only if we can't read. A
>Raksasha
> can't be a shadow... no we have serious problems. Our
>VERY generous
> DM might eat your levels of Shadow instead and leave you
>a Rakshasa
> Bard 7, if he was nice, or stupid, which he'd obviously
>have to be.

The Rakshasa race replaces the previous race, regardless
of how many templates you HAD. A Feral Half-Dragon
Half-Celestial Minotaur that undergoes a Ritual of
Vitality and becomes a human girl loses all of her
templates. And you should know that, because we gave you a
page number and everything.

>>This replaces his physical stats with Str 12,
>> Dex 14, Con 16, it does not change his mental stats
>> (although they do go up with the racial class features
>>of
>> the Rakshasa, as depicted on page 191 of the MM). For
>> simplicity, Rakshasa abilities that don't stay after the
>> Word changes his race again and do not affect Prestige
>> Class entrance are being omitted. He loses all the feats
>> and skills accumulated during those levels, so
>> unfortunately he won't have Profession: Astrologer
>> anymore. Dang!
>>
>> 1 Rakshasa 1 Combat Casting, All Martial
>> Weapons
>> 2 Rakshasa 2, +2 Int
>> 3 Rakshasa 3
>> 4 Rakshasa 4
>> 5 Rakshasa 5 Alertness
>> 6 Rakshasa 6
>> 7 Rakshasa 7, +2 Wis
>> 8 Rakshasa 8
>> 9 Rakshasa 9, +2 Cha
>> 10 Rakshasa10
>> 11 Rakshasa 11 combat reflexes
>> 12 Rakshasa 12
>> 13 Rakshasa 13, +2 Cha
>> 14 Rakshasa 14
>> Rakshasa levels hook us up with Tumble, Jump, and the
>> Language of Ancient Suloise.
>> 15 Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14, +1 Wis
>> 16 Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14
>> 17 Bard 1/Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord
>> 1/Rakshasa 14
>> 18 Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard 1/Sublime Chord
>> 1/Rakshasa 14
>> 19 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard
>> 1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14 elusive target, +1
>> Wis

> As we note, he's not a shadow at this point, or a
>Sublime Chord, or
> his PrC Level is useless anyway.... so yeah... He's a
>Rakshasa Bard 7.
> Quake and terror. Not a shadow, which would have to make
>him 30+ level
> anyway, but can't since only humanoids can be shadows.
>Ooops.

Not a problem. Try actually reading the descriptions. And
again, stop dragging over preconceptions from 3rd edition.
His emancipated Spawn levels and their benefits haven't
gone anywhere.

>> Fourth Life: Human Again
>> The Word undergoes the Ritual of Vitality again, but
>>this
>> time becomes a lowly human. This removes all of the
>> Rakshasa levels, so the accumulated feats of comnbat
>> casting, alertness, and combat reflexes are
>> lost. But then he picks up 14 new levels by touching the
>> Thought Bottle again.

> Hmmm.. how many ways is this wrong.

Good question. Let's take a trip through your hair-brained
reasoning...
  
> 1) The thought bottle contains the memories of a human
>19
> Contemplative 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/
>Wu Jen 1/Ranger
> 3/ Bard 1. We can look at this as:

Actually, it contains the Experience Points of a 19th
level Ur Priest.
  
> A) An exact image that a nice, liberal DM might allow a
>confused
> power-starved idiot to repent and change his character
>back to the
> exact same as he was before the transformation. The
>Thought Bottle
> is a save point. You've replayed the game, so you either
>reload the
> old save, or keep playing the new.

Thanks for the Final Fantasy tie-in, but that's not how it
works. The Thought Bottle is not a "save point", it
doesn't give you back lost swag or undo baneful
conditions. It's Experience Insurance. If you lose levels
and XP for any reason, the Thought Bottle brings you up to
the level you used to be. So the trick here is how to scam
the insurance company.

> B) Won't work the 20th level+ character he's already
>higher than
> the bottle image (19th) so it restores NOTHING.

At no time do any of these transformations allow him to
gain levels past 19th.
  
> C) The ritual of transformation turned you into a human
>yes, but
> beyond this the DM is obliged to offer you NOTHING. You
>could be a
> new person entirely and thus unable to access someone
>Else's memories
> in the bottle, but free to store your 7 levels of bard!

Ah... the old "The DM doesn't have to follow the rules"
argument. Sure, whatever. The Wish and The Word only win
D&D if played by the rules as written. That's all they
were ever designed to do. Games where they are allowed to
play in are rare. Of course, games played at 20th level
are rare, so I'm OK with it.

> 2) It restores levels lost to death and level drain. It
>never states
> that a ritual of transformation is a eligible loss, and
>as read in
> Savage Species is a totally voluntary process. The DM
>would be well
> in his rights to laugh at this application of the
>bottle.

"When a user's experience has been stored within the
bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore
his XP to exactly what it was when last stored"

It doesn't matter if it's an "eligible level loss". His XP
is currently less than it was when last stored. So by
accessing the Thought Bottle, his XP is reset to the old
higher value. End of discussion.

The Thought Bottle does not step in when you lose a level,
it's an object that you USE. And when you USE it, it
checks your current and last stored XP values. It doesn't
check how or why you may have lost levels in the interim.

> 3) And unless you lowered your SR, the bottle can't even
>affect you.
> (CL 13 vs 34+ SR)

1. You can voluntarily lower your own SR.
2. The Thought Bottle is not a spell or spell-like
ability, so it doesn't allow SR.

>> 1 Emancipated Spawn 1 combat reflexes, sudden
>> extend
>> 2 Bard 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1
>> 3 Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 elusive target
>> Elusive Target is not presently legal, but it was legal
>> when he got it, and the level he got it in has not gone
>> away, so it sticks around and he can't use it until his
>> BAB goes up past 6 – such as when he casts a Divine
>> Persistent Divine Power.
>> 4 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1, +1
>> Wis
>> 5 Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
>> Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> 6 Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach
>> 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 scribe scroll, Inate
>> Spell: Blasphemy (that's the one from PGtF)
>> 7 Mage of the Arcane Order 1/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> Mage of the Arcane Order, of course, adds to the Sublime
>> Chord Caster Levels.
>> 8 Mage of the Arcane Order 2/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> sudden empower, +1 Wis
>> 9 Mage of the Arcane Order 3/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy
>> 10 Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> 11 Mage of the Arcane Order 5/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> 12 Mage of the Arcane Order 6/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> Improved Initiative, +1 Wis
>> 13 Mage of the Arcane Order 7/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> 14 Mage of the Arcane Order 8/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> 15 Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime
>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>> Inate Spell: Holy Word, Supernatural Transformation:
>> Holy Word
>> 16 Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard
>> 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn
>> 2/Bard 1 , +1 Wis
>> 17 Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/
>> Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated
>> Spawn 2/Bard 1 quicken spell
>> 18 Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane
>> Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach
>> 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 Great Fortitude
>> 19 Sorcerer 1/ Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage
>> of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel
>> Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1
>>
>> Final Ability Scores: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 8, Wis
>> 20, Cha 20, he also has 5 inherent bonuses to each stat,
>> and +6 enhancements to each stat – so his final scores
>> are:

> From where... Seven levels of bard? Just stick with the
> first progression its almost good.

The infinite wishes that he has that can wish for any
magical item in the DMG, including +5 stat-gain books and
all the stat enhancers.
  
>> 21, 21, 21, 19, 31, 31. Not terribly impressive, but
>>they
>> don't need to be.

>> feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil, Still Spell,
>> rapid shot, endurance,Silent Spell, cooperative spell,
>> extend spell, persistent spell, contingent spell, dodge,
>> mobility, Weapon Finesse, divine persistent spell, Spell
>> Focus: Enchantment, combat reflexes, sudden extend,
>> elusive target, scribe scroll, Inate Spell: Blasphemy,
>> sudden empower, Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy,
>> Improved Initiative, Inate Spell: Holy Word,
>>Supernatural
>> Transformation: Holy Word, quicken spell, Great
>>Fortitude
  
> No. 20th level character, Human 7+ Bonus Feat. Above
>reasons why
> entirely wrong should suffice.

The bonus feats accumulate when you take Emancipated Spawn
levels, dumbass.
  
>> Skills of note:
>> Search: 22 ranks
>> Disable Device: 22 ranks
>> Hide: 8+ ranks
>> Disguise: 10 ranks
>> Move Silently: 8+ ranks
>> Knowledge: Arcana 13 ranks
>> Knowledge: Religion 22 ranks
>> Spellcraft: 22 ranks
>>
>> Note: I'm being purposefully vague about exactly how
>>many
>> skills he has, because he's used the Savage Species
>> rituals several times – and exactly what happens to your
>> skills when that happens is up for debate. It is
>>entirely
>> possible that he still has the Profession: Astrologer,
>>the
>> Tumble, the Jump, and all that crap left over from his
>>old
>> races.

> They go away, like everything else.

Perhaps you don't fully understand the Difference Engine.
Allow me to enlighten you:

When you lose a level, you are obliged to lose a number of
skill points equal to the amount that you would have
gained if you had instead been GAINING that level.
However, just as you are under no special compulsion to
purchase skills form class skills, you are also under no
special compulsion to SELL class skills when a level is
lost. The game doesn't even keep track of WHEN you bought
your skill ranks, only how many of them you presently have
in each skill.

So if you take level loss as an opportunity to sell off
cross-class skills (that you may well have purchased
originally at the in-class rate via another class) at the
2 points for one rank rate. Then when levels are regained,
you can purchase any skills you want - and if you choose
to purchase only in-class skills that's between you and
God.

So yes, with a sufficiently complex multiclassed build,
and enough Rituals of Vitality followed by Thought Bottle
experiments, you can max you ranks in every skill.


>> Spells of Note:
>>
>> The Word takes full advantage of the excentricities of
>>the
>> Ur Priest and the Sublime Chord. The Sublime Chord
>>resets
>> all of your arcane caster levels to the sum of all of
>>your
>> arcane caster levels. So in this case, since The Word
>>has
>> 8 separate Arcane Spellcasting classes with a caster
>> level of 11. If he pulls an Orange Ioun Stone out of his
>> pocket, all 8 classes increase by one, and all eight of
>> them are set to the new sum – of 12. Repeat this with 17
>>more Stones,
>> and we get a grant total of 28 for all his classes. The
>>Ur Priest,
>> which The Word can use as if he had all 10 levels of it
>> thanks to his "Recall Class Features" ability of the
>> Emancipated Spawn class, takes as its caster level half
>> the sum of all other caster levels. In this case, that's
>> half of eight times 28, which is 112, plus a base caster
>> level of 10. So The Word casts all Arcane Spells at
>>level
>> 28, and all Divine spells at level one hundred and
>> twenty-two.

> So many of these classes can't exist in the same build
>for so many
> reasons.

...none of which actually apply to the 3.5 rules.
  
>> The most important spells that The Word has are Holy
>> Word and Blasphemy – both of which can be cast
>> as spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities 3
>> times/day. As supernatural abilities. The important part
>> is the spellcaster levels that they can be cast at,
>>which
>> is one hundred and ten or higher. The other important
>>part
>> to keep in mind is that The Word is technically
>>possessed
>> of every single alignment, which means that when he
>> casts Blasphemy he is not "not evil", and when he
>> casts Holy Word he is not "not good". This means
>> that is "evil" for the purposes of Holy Smite, but so
>> what?

> The actually character referenced by this at the most
>GENEROUS of
> interpretations is well above 70th level. And as such
>should be
> facing appropriate CRs like Gods, which automatically
>save versus the
> spells, and are immune to his mortal magic... he better
>get
> creative...

No, he's still 19th level. Although yes, he does fight
Gods. They do automatically make saves. Good thing
Blasphemy doesn't allow one.
  
>> The Word also amuses himself by periodically casting
>> Clerical buffs on himself and his brother. Who would
>>turn
>> down an Extended Superior Resistance? It grants a
>> +6 Resistance Bonus to all saves and lasts over nine
>>days.
>>
>> Of more limited scope are the Sublime Chord spells. Most
>> notable among them are Mordenkainen's Disjunction,
>> Shapechange, Gate, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank,
>> Greater Teleport, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Mass Charm,
>> and Modify Memory. Of course, to an extent it doesn't
>> really matter what spells he knows, because he's also
>>got
>> a spell pool for being a member of the Arcane Order. He
>> can tax the spellpool out to half his caster level –
>>which
>> in this case means that he can suck out 155 spell
>>levels.
>>
>> Items of Note:
>> 18 Orange Ioun Stones for +caster level each (and more
>>when added
>> together) for 564,000.
>>
>> They aren't items, exactly, but The Word invested in
>> several Rituals of Vitality. The Rakshasa transformation
>> set our hero back 196,000 gp, paid in 14 stages of
>>14,000
>> gp. The human transformation was much cheaper – costing
>> only 7,000 gp. He also underwent two Rituals of
>>Alignment
>> to gain the [Good] and [Chaotic] subtypes.
>>
>> The only truly necessary item is the Thought Bottle,
>>that
>> marvelous trinket from the Complete Arcane.
>>
>> What books are needed for this build?
>> Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster
>>Manual,
>> Savage Species, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine,
>> Complete Arcane, Player's Guide to Feyrun.
>>
>> The Duo
>>
>> Are these characters the perfect duo?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> The Wish and The Word are the most powerful
>>spellcasters.
>> Ever. The Word has stolen the powers of the gods
>> themselves, and The Wish has torn the rigid rules of
>> arcane power asunder. The two of them flippantly
>>disregard
>> the guidelines of spells/day limits or caster level
>> paradigms that so constrain lesser spellcasters. Having
>> broken free of the self-imposed limitations of Arcane
>>and
>> Divne Magic, The Wish and The Word can adventure with
>> confidence against Epic Challenges and gods. There has
>> never been a published challenge which is a serious
>>threat
>> to the brothers.
  
> No.
>
> The Duo don't exist.

Right... they are characters in a cooperative storytelling
game. They really don't exist. What's your point?

> The are fictitious and illegal in so many ways that even
>a 2nd Edition
> sollipsism can't believe in them. I cut the rest of that
>crap since
> it relies on ANY of the above being possible, which, its
>not.

But you haven't provided any good reasons, nor any page
citations. I have. They refute you. You're an idiot. Now
that we are past the insults phase, how does that crow
taste?
  
-Frank

[Jager]

Amber?  Aw crap, but that was some time ago.

I would like to thank the people who have contributed to this.  If I ever get the chance to DM again, I will know what to not allow.

I was not a big fan of most prestige classes anyway, and this just enforces it.

[Hugin]

Really?

DnD isn't really much without the Prestige Classes.

[Jager]

How did we manage for so many years without them, then?  

Seriously, in the last game I ran (way back in 3.0), I had to decide which Prestige Classes were allowable, which were only for NPC's, and which were right out.
I play D&D for fantasy roleplaying, not for rules-lawyering, and almost every book that I have read has one or two Pretige Classes which I feel to be overpowering ... and occassionally one or two that are too weak.

[Singularity1312908853]

*shrug* I love the concept of prestige classes but that's just me.  Plus, the prestige classes are like anything in a RPG: pick the ones you like, deny the rest.

[Hugin]

Well, back in 2.0 one of the complaints I often heard was that a fighter was a fighter was a fighter. While the roleplayed concept could be different it was still annoying that the only hard differences between one fighter and another was their equipment. Prestige Classes and Feats allow each person to completely personalize their character. Fighting styles, abilities, and all that now can be different. I appreciate that.

As for putting limits on what characters can and cannot do that's always been the responsibility for the DM to excercise. I guess I don't see much of a difference.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dreamer:
D20 has so many problems that I can't think of any redeaming future in the system other than it is not as bad others.

It can be fun, but nearly every "bonus" it has is a fault.

One suspects that the primary reason people do not like d20 is not the system, but simply the people who play it. d20 as a system is one of the better systems out there - possibly the best example of a purely Gamist system that emphasises that aspect as much as possible. This is not a bad thing - Indeed, it's actually pretty damn fantastic because if you're not a Gamist player, d20 isn't going to trick you into thinking you'll like it. It's pure competitive roleplay at it's best (in this case, PCs vs GM), and that's a brilliant thing to behold.

This is in stark opposition to, say, Storyteller that has a Narrativist aim for the system, using Simulationist assumptions, complete with a Gamist combat resolution system. This may seem like a good thing, "Something for everyone" as it were, but has the problem that you invariably have to throw elements of the game out that you and your group don't like, which I think is a poor thing for a system to exemplify. If you don't think the rules will work for what you're trying to get people to play, then why on earth did you put them in there in the first place? The GM should not have to massage the system into shape in order to make it playable. I'm sorry, but that's wrong on so many levels.

As much as I love Storyteller, I have a lot of issues with ST1.0 and ST1.5. And while I'm not fond of d20, and I prefer to play other things, I actually have very few issues with the system other than "I can't play the games I want with it", which isn't a crime by any means.

[Gypsy]

I love playing with people I know who play D20.I do not love D20. I find the Combat to be dry, and borring. I find the magic to be anything but magical. I find the feats to be too few and too small. Ifind the damage to be silly. I find the level pregression to be well ...

I dislike the system.

[Noir]

Then play Exalted. It is a sweet game and sounds right up you alley.

~Noir

[Singularity1312908853]

Alright, what is a good system then?

[Gypsy]

The Systems I like?

Well,i am somewhat a fan of trisat.

I dig the story teller systems, and shaodwrun.

I dislike systems that make it impossible for you to wright a good story and still stay true the rules. D20 has it set up, where you have to nerf the rules or the story.

It does so in magic, hit point,class and level system.

I further dislike systems that if you increases your power in one area you have to do it in all areas. A powerful mage Ie one that can high level spells has to be better at fighting than low ranking fighter. It just how things go.Somoen who is skilled in things has to be highly unkillable with knives....

[Singularity1312908853]

*shrug* To each their own.  I personally find d20 to be the best fantasy game out there.  I don't think it lends itself to every genre, but it excels in its chosen arena.

[Gypsy]

But I don't even think it does that well.

Hit points alone mena that one arrow can't kill your character.

Magic feels way to like a tool to make it magical.

[Singularity1312908853]

Not at first level, a nice critical hit with an arrow can even take down a powerful fighter at low levels.

Or get rid of hit points and switch to the wound and vitality points system.  Then your NPC mooks will be mowed down like grass and a critical hit can kill anyone.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Girl:
But I don't even think it does that well.

Hit points alone mena that one arrow can't kill your character.

As a brief note, in Storyteller the same situation presents itself, except worse. Guns will almost never kill in one shot, let alone arrows...

[Splitmind]

In the D20 Modern system, it's quite possible to die in one round, no matter how many hit points you have, from one gunshot due to the D20 Massive Damage rules. If you don't like the idea of your character taking three arrows without flinching, use Modern Massive Damage. This still favors the higher-HP crowd, but it means that anyone can be taken down to dying if they take 18 damage, which a rifle can do on a non-crit.

I like D20 because it doesn't make me feel invincible, but I also feel like there's a definite difference between me and Thug #1. It lends itself very well to systems like, for instance, Metal Gear. Snake can easily take out any guard, and he can do seemingly impossible things when the circumstances require it. But set him locked in a room with 6 guys armed as well as he is and it's about as tough as some one-on-one battles against opponents of equal level. Likewise, there's a wide range of values between "bloody awful" and "unbelievable" in any skill.

For the same reason, of course, D20 doesn't feel right for, say, Aberrant. In Aberrant you're either going to die from two or three bullets or wade through gunfire without a care, as a general rule. D20 lends itself to more gradual power differentials.