Vox Via Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Character #1Poster Name: KCharacter Name: The Wish"I want you to stop Wishing.""Would you say that you Wish that I stop Wishing?""No."Race/Class/Level: Human Warlock 12/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Mage of The Arcane Order 1.System: Forgotten RealmsShort Description: This character manipulated several loopholes in the laws of magic to devestate his enemies and survive his brother's magical powers. By casting Wishes out of a custom Ring of Infinite wishes created by Spell-like Wishes from powerful Outsiders (which, as spell-like abilities, can create magic items at no XP or GP cost to the caster, and as Wishes, require no feats to create).Mostly, he just Wishes his problems away by emulating a vast array of potential spells with Wish.High-end effects are cast from Divinely Quickened Scrolls created by Wish.Ability Scores:Str: 8 (dependant on current templated "human" form gained with Polymorph Any Object)Dex: 8 (see above)Con: 8 (See above)Int: 18 (23 + items)Wis: 8 (13 + items)Cha: 18 (34)Character Sheet:Diety: NoneAlignment: Varies with the current casting of a Contingent Atonement,Hit Points: Average, but with bumper crops of temp HPs and Con-boosted HPsSaves: Fort 6/Ref 6/ Will 15(with +6 from a Cloak of Resistance and a Roving +6 for Devil's Own Luck)Quote:Progression:1 Warlock 1 Magical Training(for spellcasting) Precocious Apprentice(for a 2nd level spell)2 Warlock 23 Warlock 3 Supernatural Transformation(Eldritch Blast)4 Warlock 45 Warlock 56 Warlock 6 Spell Focus(Abjuration)7 Warlock 78 Warlock 89 Warlock 9 Skill Focus(Spellcraft)10 Warlock 1011 Warlock 1112 Warlock 12 Greater Spell Focus(Abjuration)13 Initiate of the Seven Veils 1/Warlock 12[To get into IoSV, you need five Abjurations, with one at 4th level. Combined with the Warlock Invocations that are Abjuations effects like Devour Magic. Voracious Dispelling, and Entropic Warding and spell gained from (which count as spells for meeting PrC requirements per the Complete Arcane pg 70) and spells from Magical Training off the Wizard list for more abjurations, while Precocious Apprentice provides the needed ability to cast 2nd level spells]14 Initiate of the Seven Veils 2/Warlock 1215 Initiate of the Seven Veils 3/Warlock 12 Sudden widen16 Initiate of the Seven Veils 4/Warlock 1217 Initiate of the Seven Veils 5/Warlock 1218 Initiate of the Seven Veils 6/Warlock 12 Cooperative Spell19 Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Warlock 1220 Mage of the Arcane Order 1/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/Warlock 12Skills of note:Use Magic Device: 35 (and takes 10 with Warlock's 4th level power to boot)Spells of Note:--Eldritch Might(20th, as a Supernatural power, which punches through SR)--Full 20th level Warlock casting and Invocations with crazy-go-nuts powers to boot.Items of Note:--Ring Of Infinite Divinely Quickened Wishes(created by an Efreet or Pit Fiend orwhatever's spell-like ability used at the behest of my cast Gate Scrollbought using my normal treasure).--Used Scrolls of Gate and Heroism and Quickened Guidance and that Bard +skill spell--Used Wishes for +5 Inherant Bonuses to all stats--+6 cloak of Charisma--Contingent spells(creatd with the Contingent spell feat tat I don't need with a Wish) created by the above Ring with crazy effects likeAtonement spells that change my alignment to match the casting of the Word's spells.--Contingent Wishes to avert any ill eventWhat Books are Needed for this Build?PHBDMGComplete ArcanePlayer's Guide to FaerunSavage SpeciesCharacter #2Poster Name: Frank Trollman (ftrollma@ucsc.edu)Character NameThe Word"I'm sure you've sinned against something. Thatwill be your downfall.Race/Class/Level: The Word is a Human Sorcerer 1/Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/EmancipatedSpawn 2/Bard 1. Yes, Really.System: These characters are from the Forgotten Realms,although with minimal alteration could be transferred toother settings.Short Description: The Word can throw Holy Words andBlasphemies at caster level 110, as supernatural abilitiesthat automatically penetrate all SR. Both The Wish and TheWord are immune to both spells, but anything else withless than 99 hit dice dies without recourse to a savingthrow or spell resistance. Of course, he's also got fullspellcasting in the traditional sense, so he's hardlypowerless against creatures which are immune to his bigtrick.Ability Scores:Str: 10 (21)Dex:10 (21)Con: 12 (21)Int: 14 (19)Wis:14 (31)Cha: 14 (31)Character Sheet:The Word distains all deities equally and is Lawful Evil.He currently looks like a completely non-descript mansomewhere between his twenties and thirties. His height,weight, and girth are all exactly average, becausehe's been transformed back into the platonic ideal of a“human”. His skin and eye color are the deep tan you getwhen you mix all possible human colorations together in avat.Hit Points: 169, Saves: Fort: +16, Will:+39, Ref: +18Progression:Quote:Using the magic of the Thought Bottle, the Word acuallyloses and regains levelsthree times, so levels are all shown in the order taken,with the appropriate levels hehas at that point. Because a lot of levels are beingtaken, retaken, and reshuffled, we will always place thelevel which is presently being incremented as the firstlist level at each point (however transient that point maybe).First Life: Human1 Bard 1 Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil2 Ranger 1/ Bard 13 Ranger 2/ Bard 1 Still Spell, rapidshot4 Ranger 3/ Bard 1 endurance5 Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Silent Spell6 Ur Priest 1/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1cooperative spell7 Ur Priest 2/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 18 Ur Priest 3/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 19 Ur Priest 4/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 extendspell10 Ur Priest 5/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 111 Ur Priest 6/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 112 Ur Priest 7/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1persistent spell13 Ur Priest 8/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 114 Ur Priest 9/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 115 Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1contingent spell16 Fighter 1/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard1 dodge17 Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard1 mobility18 Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Weapon Finesse, divine persistentspell19 Contemplative 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/UrPriest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Spell Focus:Enchantment (from the domination domain)Here's where the magic kicks in: The Word stores all ofhis copius XP in a Thought Bottle, and is killed by aShadow. Based upon his long range plans and hatred of thegods, it is most probable that he voluntarily iskilled by a Shadow. He uses his own Rebuke Undead abilityto force a Shadow that he created with a Create Undeadspell to kill him. This causes him to transform into aShadow Spawn... exactly as he intended.Second Life: ShadowHe is brought back as a Shadow Spawn. This means that hiseffective character level is reset to 10 as per SavageSpecies page 210. His stats are now Str -, Dex 14, Con -,Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13.10 3 Shadow Hit Dice, Point Blank Shot,Alertness11 Bard +1 Cha12 Bard13 Bard14 Bard15 Emancipated Spawn, +1 Cha16 Bard17 Bard18 Bard19 Sublime Chord, +1 ChaThird Life: RakshasaThe Word does not actually die, but he does undergo aRitual of Vitality (Savage Species, page 150), this setshim back 105,000 XP, leaving him barely enough XP to be13th level. He can't drop the racial levels until theRitual goes off, so instead he loses a bunch of Bardlevels. As per the FAQ, the highest class levels (in thiscase the Bard levels) are lost first, reducing him to aShadow 10/ Sublime Chord 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1/ Bard 1,and then replacing the Shadow levels with 14 levels ofRakshasa. This replaces his physical stats with Str 12,Dex 14, Con 16, it does not change his mental stats(although they do go up with the racial class features ofthe Rakshasa, as depicted on page 191 of the MM). Forsimplicity, Rakshasa abilities that don't stay after theWord changes his race again and do not affect PrestigeClass entrance are being omitted. He loses all the featsand skills accumulated during those levels, sounfortunately he won't have Profession: Astrologeranymore. Dang!1 Rakshasa 1 Combat Casting, All MartialWeapons2 Rakshasa 2, +2 Int3 Rakshasa 34 Rakshasa 45 Rakshasa 5 Alertness6 Rakshasa 67 Rakshasa 7, +2 Wis8 Rakshasa 89 Rakshasa 9, +2 Cha10 Rakshasa1011 Rakshasa 11 combat reflexes12 Rakshasa 1213 Rakshasa 13, +2 Cha14 Rakshasa 14Rakshasa levels hook us up with Tumble, Jump, and theLanguage of Ancient Suloise.15 Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14, +1 Wis16 Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 1417 Bard 1/Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord1/Rakshasa 1418 Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard 1/Sublime Chord1/Rakshasa 1419 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14 elusive target, +1WisFourth Life: Human AgainThe Word undergoes the Ritual of Vitality again, but thistime becomes a lowly human. This removes all of theRakshasa levels, so the accumulated feats of comnbatcasting, alertness, and combat reflexes arelost. But then he picks up 14 new levels by touching theThought Bottle again.1 Emancipated Spawn 1 combat reflexes, suddenextend2 Bard 1/ Emancipated Spawn 13 Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 elusive targetElusive Target is not presently legal, but it was legalwhen he got it, and the level he got it in has not goneaway, so it sticks around and he can't use it until hisBAB goes up past 6 – such as when he casts a DivinePersistent Divine Power.4 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1, +1Wis5 Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/EmancipatedSpawn 2/Bard 16 Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 scribe scroll, InateSpell: Blasphemy (that's the one from PGtF)7 Mage of the Arcane Order 1/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1Mage of the Arcane Order, of course, adds to the SublimeChord Caster Levels.8 Mage of the Arcane Order 2/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1sudden empower, +1 Wis9 Mage of the Arcane Order 3/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy10 Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 111 Mage of the Arcane Order 5/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 112 Mage of the Arcane Order 6/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1Improved Initiative, +1 Wis13 Mage of the Arcane Order 7/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 114 Mage of the Arcane Order 8/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 115 Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/SublimeChord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1Inate Spell: Holy Word, Supernatural Transformation:Holy Word16 Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn2/Bard 1 , +1 Wis17 Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/EmancipatedSpawn 2/Bard 1 quicken spell18 Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the ArcaneOrder 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 Great Fortitude19 Sorcerer 1/ Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mageof the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ SuelArcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1Final Ability Scores: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 8, Wis20, Cha 20, he also has 5 inherent bonuses to each stat,and +6 enhancements to each stat – so his final scoresare:21, 21, 21, 19, 31, 31. Not terribly impressive, but theydon't need to be.feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil, Still Spell,rapid shot, endurance,Silent Spell, cooperative spell,extend spell, persistent spell, contingent spell, dodge,mobility, Weapon Finesse, divine persistent spell, SpellFocus: Enchantment, combat reflexes, sudden extend,elusive target, scribe scroll, Inate Spell: Blasphemy,sudden empower, Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy,Improved Initiative, Inate Spell: Holy Word, SupernaturalTransformation: Holy Word, quicken spell, Great FortitudeSkills of note:Search: 22 ranksDisable Device: 22 ranksHide: 8+ ranksDisguise: 10 ranksMove Silently: 8+ ranksKnowledge: Arcana 13 ranksKnowledge: Religion 22 ranksSpellcraft: 22 ranksNote: I'm being purposefully vague about exactly how manyskills he has, because he's used the Savage Speciesrituals several times – and exactly what happens to yourskills when that happens is up for debate. It is entirelypossible that he still has the Profession: Astrologer, theTumble, the Jump, and all that crap left over from his oldraces.Spells of Note:The Word takes full advantage of the excentricities of theUr Priest and the Sublime Chord. The Sublime Chord resetsall of your arcane caster levels to the sum of all of yourarcane caster levels. So in this case, since The Word has8 separate Arcane Spellcasting classes with a casterlevel of 11. If he pulls an Orange Ioun Stone out of hispocket, all 8 classes increase by one, and all eight ofthem are set to the new sum – of 12. Repeat this with 17 more Stones, and we get a grant total of 28 for all his classes. The Ur Priest,which The Word can use as if he had all 10 levels of itthanks to his “Recall Class Features” ability of theEmancipated Spawn class, takes as its caster level halfthe sum of all other caster levels. In this case, that'shalf of eight times 28, which is 112, plus a base casterlevel of 10. So The Word casts all Arcane Spells at level28, and all Divine spells at level one hundred andtwenty-two.The most important spells that The Word has are HolyWord and Blasphemy – both of which can be castas spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities 3times/day. As supernatural abilities. The important partis the spellcaster levels that they can be cast at, whichis one hundred and ten or higher. The other important partto keep in mind is that The Word is technically possessedof every single alignment, which means that when hecasts Blasphemy he is not “not evil”, and when hecasts Holy Word he is not “not good”. This meansthat is “evil” for the purposes of Holy Smite, but sowhat?The Word also amuses himself by periodically castingClerical buffs on himself and his brother. Who would turndown an Extended Superior Resistance? It grants a+6 Resistance Bonus to all saves and lasts over nine days.Of more limited scope are the Sublime Chord spells. Mostnotable among them are Mordenkainen's Disjunction,Shapechange, Gate, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank,Greater Teleport, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Mass Charm,and Modify Memory. Of course, to an extent it doesn'treally matter what spells he knows, because he's also gota spell pool for being a member of the Arcane Order. Hecan tax the spellpool out to half his caster level – whichin this case means that he can suck out 155 spell levels.Items of Note:18 Orange Ioun Stones for +caster level each (and more when added together) for 564,000.They aren't items, exactly, but The Word invested inseveral Rituals of Vitality. The Rakshasa transformationset our hero back 196,000 gp, paid in 14 stages of 14,000gp. The human transformation was much cheaper – costingonly 7,000 gp. He also underwent two Rituals of Alignmentto gain the [Good] and [Chaotic] subtypes.The only truly necessary item is the Thought Bottle, thatmarvelous trinket from the Complete Arcane.What books are needed for this build?Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual,Savage Species, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine,Complete Arcane, Player's Guide to Feyrun.The DuoAre these characters the perfect duo?Yes.The Wish and The Word are the most powerful spellcasters.Ever. The Word has stolen the powers of the godsthemselves, and The Wish has torn the rigid rules ofarcane power asunder. The two of them flippantly disregardthe guidelines of spells/day limits or caster levelparadigms that so constrain lesser spellcasters. Havingbroken free of the self-imposed limitations of Arcane andDivne Magic, The Wish and The Word can adventure withconfidence against Epic Challenges and gods. There hasnever been a published challenge which is a serious threatto the brothers.How would the Duo kick ass against the following?Aberrations/Magical Beasts etc:The Terrasque is slain in a one/two action of The Wordreciting the Blasphemy of all Blasphemies that instantlykills it, and The Wish makes the plea that forbids itsreturn. A single Blasphemy or Holy Word backed up by aWish kills it in one round.Constructs:Some of those Epic Golems are a problem. Not so much thepoor Colossus, whose Antimagic Field is absolutely no helpat all against The Word's 100% chance of blowing it downwith a Disjunction. But against creatures which are simplyMagic Immune, The Wish pulls out all the stops with hisunlimited Summon Monster VIIIs, as well as formiddablebattlefield shaping prowess. An Adamantine Golem must dealwith the fact that The Wish can wish for intervening Wallsof Iron faster than the Adamant Golem can tear them down –and The Wish can pull in some teleporting and burrowingmonsters besides. An Adamant Golem must deal with abottomless supply of expendable monsters coming from theother end of an impassable barrier – which it simplycannot do. Remember: Admantine Golems are not immune toextraordinary Light Energy damage. They aren't evenresistant to it. With enough Lantern Archons, you can killone in a round. The Wish can get enough Lantern Archons.Failing that, of course, any Construct that The Word cansee is something he can turn himself into, with all of hisbuffs still applying (spells don't drop off just becauseyou are no longer a legal target or Enlarge Personwouldn't work at all). With his Divine Persistent DivinePower going 24/7, he can punch out an Adamantine Golemwith little fanfare.Dragons:The Wish can wish them a Slime Wave, which doespretty nasty things to any Dragon large enough to makethese two care. Of course, even a Great Wyrm PrismaticDragon “only” has 78 hit dice – which is not enough toforstall an instant kill by a long shot.Elementals/Outsiders:Since the vast majority of outsiders are a snap, and sinceThe Wish and The Word are very strongly in the Athar camp,we will deal with their plans to wipe out two appropriatechallenges: Hextor and Heironius. These powerful gods hateour heroes, which would be very bad if they didn'tconstantly benefit from Mind Blank. So The Wishwishes them into the presence of Hextor, or uses aGate out of the Ring of Spell Storing, and The Wordhas a readied action with a Supernatural Ability ofHoly Word or a Holy Word as a contingentspell. In either case, Hextor's puny spell resistance isrendered moot (either because The Word has a spellcasterlevel that is over sixty points higher than Hextor's SR,or because Supernatural Abilities bypass all SR) andHextor dies a horrible death because he's facing a HolyWord above the magic number of caster level 67. By ahuge margin. If currently necessary, The Wish uses up oneof his Contingency Atonements to survive. If theyused a contingency Holy Word to slay Hextor, TheWord can open up another Gate on his own round toHeironius and slay him with a contingency Blasphemyin the very same round.Undead:The Atropal only has 66 hit dice, so it can't survive asingle Holy Word from The Word. Also, its NeagtiveEnergy Aura can't penetrate The Word's Death Ward, nor canany of its othe gimics. The most powerful Undead the worldhas seen is chaffe before the might of The Word byhimself. To compound such greta fortune, The Wish can Wishup a pizza, that the brothers might enjoy a meal on theblasted hillock that stands where the power of detahitself showed the hubris to make itself manifest in theform of the malformed fetus of a would-be god.Traps:The Word has a substantial Search Skill, and The Wishloses nothing by replicating a Find Traps spellwith one of his unlimited wishes.Political Intrigue:The Wish can replicate such fabulous Bardic Spells asGlibness with Wishing, and can crank his BluffChecks into the low hundreds with little strain. A Bluffcheck that high acts as a suggestion, so basically he cantell people to knock off all the intrigue and starttearing down the churches – and they'll just go do that.Also he can read everyone's mind, detect all alignments,know truth from lies, and fact from fiction.Diplomatic Maneuvers:The Wish has access to a number of divinations. Thatnumber is “all of them”. Also they can Diplomacize theiron out of the ground. Actually, they have to usePolymorph Any Object for that – but that's really OK. Withfunctionally limitless wealth in gold, gems, food, andmagic, they can bribe everyone they don't feel likekilling. They can have a truly “big tent” diplomaticprogram because The Wish can just wish up anything thatanyone wants as a negotiating strategy carrot, and TheWord can kill basically anyone as a negotiating tacticstick.A BBEG/ Mastermind/ Warlord:The Wish and The Word are themselves undetectable, andhave no particular need for constant territory. It thenbecomes merely a question of whether The Wish and The Wordcan find the enemy Mastermind – since the Mastermind willnever find them. On arival, The Word can dump aDisjunction, a truly Irressistable Dance, or a HolyWord as appropriate. The Wish can use any spell he feelslike; I'm partial to Irrsessistable Dances alternated withsummonings and attack Wishes, but you can have a grab baghere.The Wish and The Word can come up with Gather Informationchecks that will tell them the kind of toothpaste theMastermind's parents used when he was a kid, and haveaccess to an unlimited number of Communes and DiscernLocations, so finding the guy shouldn't be much of aproblem.Mobs:Hordes are of little problem when you can slap a roomclearing spell that will clear the room of any group ofHecatoncheires, let alone mobs of weaker creatures. TheWord has several such spells, and The Wish has all therest.Overwhelming Odds:The Word gives his brother the solemn protection of allthe gods, which manifests itself as Spell Resistance,Death Ward, Etc. at a caster level of 110 (or more, if hepulls out the other Orange Ioun Stones – they stack). Thismeans that both of them have SR of 122, as well as asubstantial number of immunities. They can slay anymonster, man, or god ever printed in any sourcebook orcompendium of horrors that I am aware of, often in lessthan a round. Nevertheless, should they encounter somehorror from beyond the spheres so horrible, so unspeakablethat it has as yet not been statted, The Wish stillhas recourse in that he can undo the very laws ofcausality themselves and remove all traces of such anill-fated adventure. The Wish of “I wish we neverwent on this adventure” is still available. If all elsefails, The Wish and the Word can flea beyond and beforeany possible pursuit can even have begun through thecosmic mulligan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugin Posted July 6, 2005 Share Posted July 6, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakurako Hino Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 Wheee... people making rules mountains over molehills.This is why I do not like DnD. There's too many munchkins that make it their life to try to verify thier loopholed monster of a character... then when a DM smashes, the munchkin decides to destroy the game.Lather rinse repeat with new systems. It's not d20 or other rules versions that are broke. The WHOLE GAME is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 Yes, yes. I know you hate anything and everything connected with DnD. Good on you. Not everyone feels the same way though. Vanguard provided this at my request because of a conversation she and I had in chat. It's no big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Craft Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Actually, d20 is a pretty solid system. Kind of clunky, IMO, but it works reasonably well, and the books are pretty consistent (as opposed to, say, Aberrant). The rules-heavy approach actually makes it considerably more difficult to abuse, so long as the DM knows the rules well.I do tend to find the hyper-thorough, systematic nature of the rules incompatible with my own GMing style - I'm more of an Amber kind of guy, where your character sheet has a grand total of four or five numbers on it, depending. ( ; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamer Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 D20 has so many problems that I can't think of any redeaming future in the system other than it is not as bad others.It can be fun, but nearly every "bonus" it has is a fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamer Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Note: Frank is a friend, and wile I think of a good person he is not me. He is a bit harsh at times.> Okay, I forwarded this to a DM buddy of mine who not >only is way more> fair and encouraging of creativity than I could ever >manage (meaning> he isn't a limiting nazi like I've been accused of >being) but also> owns every fucking release for DnD 3.5 and has read all >of them in> addition to the errata's and FAQs. His response is in >bold. > > His response was crafted for me and I've been given >permision to> reprint it here so the profanity and general derision >isn't directed> at anyone person.> > >> Character #1>>>> Poster Name: K>>>> Character Name: The Wish>> "I want you to stop Wishing.">> "Would you say that you Wish that I stop Wishing?">> "No.">>>> Race/Class/Level: Human Warlock 12/Initiate of the Seven >>Veils 7/Mage>> of The Arcane Order 1.>>>> System: Forgotten Realms>>>> Short Description: This character manipulated several >>loopholes in the>> laws of magic to devestate his enemies and survive his >>brother's>> magical powers. By casting Wishes out of a custom Ring >>of Infinite>> wishes created by Spell-like Wishes from powerful >>Outsiders (which, as>> spell-like abilities, can create magic items at no XP or >>GP cost to>> the caster, and as Wishes, require no feats to create). > Ok, just hold the toaster right here kitten. What >acid-waste of a DM> bothered running a game just to let a ring like that >out? If we are> talking straight rules, the recommended wealth >guidelines don't allow> an EPIC character of 30th level to spring for this shit. >So... DM's a> fuck-tard but I'll keep going for fun. P.S. A wish STILL >drains the> user of any XP needed to make a magic item, it just gets >rid of time.> It can make NON-magical items of a gp value of around >16,000 gp. They> changed any possibility of relevance to the above in >3.5.Actually, it can make any MAGICAL ITEM as well, in fact the 3rd edition version couldn't make the infinite wishes ring (because there was a hard cap),the 3.5 can. Its the seventh bulleted point "create a magic item or add to the powers of an existing magic item." I realize that it must have been very difficult to read that far, as the 6th bulletted point allows you to make non-magical items of up to 25,000 gp in value.Regardless, the specific rules are that the XP cost of the spell increases by twice the XP cost of the item. An infinite wishes item costs a not-inconsiderable 512,960 XP cost to make the normal way. That means that the XP component of the spell to create one instantaneously is 1,030,920 XP. Fortunately, we are using Wish as a Spell-like ability here, so we don't actually have to pay the XP component (as detailed on page 315 of the Monster Manual). Good thing, because if we actually had to pay that XP, we'd need to be one thousand and thirty first level just have it all at once. > I'd like to point out that I don't believe an infinite >wish item is> even possible, let alone adding Quicken to it since that >would knock> it up to a 13th level spell. Actually, it's still a 9th level spell, because it is Divine Metamagic Quickened. That means that the creator had to pay five turning checks for every full day he worked on the item, but the spell level wasn't increased at all. Remember, Wish obviates the need for feats to make the item, so you can actually take advantage of Divine Metgamagic from page 80 of the Complete Divine.>> Mostly, he just Wishes his problems away by emulating a >>vast array of>> potential spells with Wish.> And never levels again. EVER. I talked with him further >about this.> Basically to MAKE a magic item requires the expenditure >of XP required> for a spell. But wishing for anything other than the >basic effects of> a Wish requires EXTRA XP that would have to be paid by >the user when> making the wish. Um... no it doesn't. The XP cost of Wish is variable, and you have to pay that full variable cost if you are casting it normally. But a Wish used as a spell-like ability or cast from a magic item waves the XP costs, regardless of how much it WOULD HAVE BEEN. That's what happens when the XP costs are listed under the line "XP Cost:" in the spell entry, it's part of the XP component. So if you don't have to pay that cost for any reason, you don't pay it no matter how high you scam it to be if it had been paid. >> High-end effects are cast from Divinely Quickened >>Scrolls created by> Wish. >Funny that USING a scroll period with a warlock's UMD is >a standard> action.Um... using UMD is a reflexive action. Activating the scroll takes an amount of time that is (according to page 213 of the 3.5 DMG):"Activating a magic item is standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whther it's A SCROLL, a wand, or a pair of boots."Emphasis is, of course, mine. So the time to cast a Divinely quickened Gate is one Swift Action, so that's the time it takes to activate a Divinely Quickened Gate Scroll.But nice try.> Too bad he ran out of scrolls and exp to make more last >session even> with his ring of Utter Dungeon Master Stupidity.I've eliminated most of your complaints, because they have a tendency to be "HOW CUM U HAV XP?!" over and over again. If you want, now that you know how we have experience points left over, you're welcome to go back and have actual complaints. As is, it's just sort of sad. >> Spells of Note:>> --Eldritch Might(20th, as a Supernatural power, which >>punches> through SR)> >From what?Supernatural Transformation. Since we made this write-up, Supernatural Transformation was errataed to not be applicable to Eldritch Blast. But at the time, it was legit.>> Items of Note:>> --Ring Of Infinite Divinely Quickened Wishes>> (created by an Efreet or Pit Fiend or>> whatever's spell-like ability used at the behest of my >>cast Gate Scroll>> bought using my normal treasure).> I laugh so hard here than I want to cry. You'd have to >have a pretty> big reward for the being in question and the character >couldn't afford> that either.You didn't actually read the whole thing, did you? The being in question doesn't even need to know this has happened, since The Word has the power to borrow other creature's Spell-like abilities. So the whole experience goes like this:* Planar Bind an Efreet.* The Word copies the Efreet's Wish Granting power to grant any mortal wishes for zero XP cost.* The Wish makes his wish, it is granted, and the cheese stands alone.You can even let the Efreet go home, or kill it, before the wish is made. >> --Used Scrolls of Gate and Heroism and Quickened >>Guidance and that>> Bard +skill spell>> --Used Wishes for +5 Inherant Bonuses to all stats>> --+6 cloak of Charisma>> --Contingent spells(creatd with the Contingent spell >>feat tat I don't>> need with a Wish) created by the above Ring with crazy >>effects like>> Atonement spells that change my alignment to match the >>casting of the>> Word's spells.>> --Contingent Wishes to avert any ill event>>>> What Books are Needed for this Build?>> PHB>> DMG>> Complete Arcane>> Player's Guide to Faerun>> Savage Species> Bunk, Bunk, Bunk... read the FAQ regarding wish, read >Comp ArcDone, done, and done. I'll have my hat back now.>> Character #2>> Poster Name: Frank Trollman (ftrollma@ucsc.edu)>>>> Character Name>> The Word>> "I'm sure you've sinned against something. That>> will be your downfall.>>>> Race/Class/Level: The Word is a Human Sorcerer 1/>> Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order >>9/>> Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated>> Spawn 2/Bard 1. Yes, Really.>>>> System: These characters are from the Forgotten Realms,>> although with minimal alteration could be transferred to>> other settings.>>>> Short Description: The Word can throw Holy Words and>> Blasphemies at caster level 110, as supernatural >>abilities>> that automatically penetrate all SR. Both The Wish and >>The>> Word are immune to both spells, but anything else with>> less than 99 hit dice dies without recourse to a saving>> throw or spell resistance. Of course, he's also got full>> spellcasting in the traditional sense, so he's hardly>> powerless against creatures which are immune to his big>> trick.>>>> Ability Scores:>>>> Str: 10 (21)>> Dex:10 (21)>> Con: 12 (21)>> Int: 14 (19)>> Wis:14 (31)>> Cha: 14 (31)>>>> Character Sheet:>>>> The Word distains all deities equally and is Lawful >>Evil.>> He currently looks like a completely non-descript man>> somewhere between his twenties and thirties. His height,>> weight, and girth are all exactly average, because>> he's been transformed back into the platonic ideal of a>> "human". His skin and eye color are the deep tan you get>> when you mix all possible human colorations together in >>a>> vat.>>>> Hit Points: 169, Saves: Fort: +16, Will:>> +39, Ref: +18>>>> Progression:>>>> Quote:>> Using the magic of the Thought Bottle, the Word acually>> loses and regains levels>> three times, so levels are all shown in the order taken,>> with the appropriate levels he>> has at that point. Because a lot of levels are being>> taken, retaken, and reshuffled, we will always place the>> level which is presently being incremented as the first>> list level at each point (however transient that point >>may>> be).> At this point my eyes rolled up into my head for a good >while.> Thought Bottle cannot ANYWHERE in the description "store >levels", its> a copy. A reminder to bring you back to where you were >if you lose> levels. I assume Mage of the Arcane Order is a typo but >may be due to> lack of understanding of how the item works I'm not sure >but> regardless its wrong..Great. Now that you've gone on to some sort of wild speculation as to how the Thought Bottle is supposed to work. Here's how it actually works:"Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration can, but is effective against level loss that even restoration can't undo (including levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP to exactly what it was when last stored"It restores you to an exactl amount of XP, it doesn't restore you to an exact level configuration. If the old level configuration is impossible (for example: because you have in the interim gained levels in other classes), the thought bottle has no provision about swapping levels out.But with all your fist pounding, I'm sure you know what it says without having to read the actual text, neh?>> First Life: Human > As above this would be the only life... but.. whatever.This sour grapes thing, where you raise an objection, and then keep making the same one over and over again, is retarded. >> 1 Bard 1 Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil>> 2 Ranger 1/ Bard 1>> 3 Ranger 2/ Bard 1 Still Spell, rapid>> shot>> 4 Ranger 3/ Bard 1 endurance>> 5 Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Silent Spell>> 6 Ur Priest 1/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> cooperative spell>> 7 Ur Priest 2/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> 8 Ur Priest 3/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> 9 Ur Priest 4/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 extend>> spell>> 10 Ur Priest 5/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> 11 Ur Priest 6/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> 12 Ur Priest 7/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> persistent spell>> 13 Ur Priest 8/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> 14 Ur Priest 9/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> 15 Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1>> contingent spell>> 16 Fighter 1/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard>> 1 dodge>> 17 Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard>> 1 mobility>> 18 Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ Wu Jen>> 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Weapon Finesse, divine persistent>> spell>> 19 Contemplative 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur>> Priest 10/ Wu Jen 1/Ranger 3/ Bard 1 Spell Focus:>> Enchantment (from the domination domain)>>>> Here's where the magic kicks in: The Word stores all of>> his copius XP in a Thought Bottle, and is killed by a>> Shadow. Based upon his long range plans and hatred of >>the>> gods, it is most probable that he voluntarily is>> killed by a Shadow. He uses his own Rebuke Undead >>ability>> to force a Shadow that he created with a Create Undead>> spell to kill him. This causes him to transform into a>> Shadow Spawn... exactly as he intended.> Wow is he dumb. Based on the magic (spells - modify >memory and> demand) that thought bottle uses, its clearly >mind-affecting and any> DM with even a single vertebrae, let alone a SPINE will >let you know> that upon becoming a shadow, he is now IMMUNE to >mind-affecting magic.> Oh no! His precious XP is in the bottle and he can't >have it -> EVER.That's about the thinnest objection I've ever seen. Things have the [Mind Affecting] tag on them iff they say they do. You might as well be arguing that Flaming Swords have a 400 foot range because they require Fireball to manufacture!>> Second Life: Shadow>> He is brought back as a Shadow Spawn. This means that >>his>> effective character level is reset to 10 as per Savage>> Species page 210. His stats are now Str -, Dex 14, Con >>-,>> Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13.> No. He gains the first level of the Shadow >transformational class.No, as per the Shadow description on page 221 of the 3.5 Monster Manual, he comes into play as a Shadow Spawn. As per Savage Species, a Shadow Spawn has an Effective Character Level of 10.> He then gets joy of being a 1 HD shadow and spending >level upon level> getting to the point where he can EVER get a class level >again. A> paladin or cleric probably turns him and he fades to >umbral tatters.> Ooops. He's lucky, sneaky and his DMs an idiot? He makes >it to tenth> level? Oh wait.. there is that little tricky >mind-affecting snag...> yay! I'm a lame shadow! My rivals and friends are >pushing level 14> while you've been dicking around with this. Oh wait, no >their epic,> because you've added a whole new life of idiocy.Blah blah blah. No. He spends two full rounds getting himself a new lease on life. The only difficult part is keeping him alive while the original Shadow still controls him. But The Wish actually has that covered, so it's all good.>> 10 3 Shadow Hit Dice, Point Blank Shot,>> Alertness > Sure after regaining all those levels from a 1HD >shadow.. yay you!I have honestly no idea where you got the idea that anyone ever turned into a one hit die shadow. There aren't even rules in the Monster Manual for 1 hit die shadows. >> 11 Bard +1 Cha>> 12 Bard>> 13 Bard>> 14 Bard>> 15 Emancipated Spawn, +1 Cha>> 16 Bard>> 17 Bard>> 18 Bard>> 19 Sublime Chord, +1 Cha>> Third Life: Rakshasa>> The Word does not actually die, but he does undergo a>> Ritual of Vitality (Savage Species, page 150), this sets>> him back 105,000 XP, leaving him barely enough XP to be>> 13th level. He can't drop the racial levels until the>> Ritual goes off, so instead he loses a bunch of Bard>> levels. As per the FAQ, the highest class levels (in >>this>> case the Bard levels) are lost first, reducing him to a>> Shadow 10/ Sublime Chord 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1/ Bard 1,>> and then replacing the Shadow levels with 14 levels of>> Rakshasa.> As a side note here... even if the bottle did >mysteriously work. He> no longer qualifies for the PrC and thus loses all of >its powers even> though he still has the level.No he doesn't. DMG page 176:"Unlike the basic classes found in the Player's Handbook, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class."Perhaps you were thinking of the Third Edition Rules, where if you lost the requirements for a PrC, you lost the abilities? Regardless, those aren't the rules in 3.5.And a damned good thing it is, because The Word has a lot of levels of Ur Priest. And the prerequisites are that you DON'T have any Divine Spellcasting, and the first level ability gives you Divine Spellcasting. If this were 3rd edition, and losing prereqs made you lose class abilities, he's be in a lot of trouble, wouldn't he? In fact, all Ur Priests would, since their class features would make hem lose their class features...> But really "highest class >levels" is> sight read about, because its highest in progression, >not actual> level.No it isn't. Highest in progression doesn't make any sense. That would be "latest level". But the FAQ example is that a Fighter/Wizard loses a Fighter level if he has MORE FIGHTER LEVELS, not if he took Fighter Levels latest.> So the Sublime Chord comes off first, but even if >it didn't> its powers are gone anyway.It comes off second, AND the powers stay. Wrong on both counts. Do you seem to be a little flacid in the actual page citations? Yes you do.> Also, unless the DM was >still sucking his> crack pipe, shadow is a template,Shadow is a monter in the Monster Manual, on page 221. That monster is detailed as a class in Savage Species. There is ALSO a template called (variously) Shadow Creature and Shade Creature. But that's:1. Not what you turn into when you become a Shadow Spawnand2. Not actually important, since that's not how the Ritual of Vitality works. Any racial templates you have pop off when the ritual is performed.> and racial so he >really becomes a> 1st level Rakshasa Shadow waiting to level through all >those racial> levels again! Weeee! Oh wait, only if we can't read. A >Raksasha> can't be a shadow... no we have serious problems. Our >VERY generous> DM might eat your levels of Shadow instead and leave you >a Rakshasa> Bard 7, if he was nice, or stupid, which he'd obviously >have to be.The Rakshasa race replaces the previous race, regardless of how many templates you HAD. A Feral Half-Dragon Half-Celestial Minotaur that undergoes a Ritual of Vitality and becomes a human girl loses all of her templates. And you should know that, because we gave you a page number and everything.>>This replaces his physical stats with Str 12,>> Dex 14, Con 16, it does not change his mental stats>> (although they do go up with the racial class features >>of>> the Rakshasa, as depicted on page 191 of the MM). For>> simplicity, Rakshasa abilities that don't stay after the>> Word changes his race again and do not affect Prestige>> Class entrance are being omitted. He loses all the feats>> and skills accumulated during those levels, so>> unfortunately he won't have Profession: Astrologer>> anymore. Dang!>>>> 1 Rakshasa 1 Combat Casting, All Martial>> Weapons>> 2 Rakshasa 2, +2 Int>> 3 Rakshasa 3>> 4 Rakshasa 4>> 5 Rakshasa 5 Alertness>> 6 Rakshasa 6>> 7 Rakshasa 7, +2 Wis>> 8 Rakshasa 8>> 9 Rakshasa 9, +2 Cha>> 10 Rakshasa10>> 11 Rakshasa 11 combat reflexes>> 12 Rakshasa 12>> 13 Rakshasa 13, +2 Cha>> 14 Rakshasa 14>> Rakshasa levels hook us up with Tumble, Jump, and the>> Language of Ancient Suloise.>> 15 Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14, +1 Wis>> 16 Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14>> 17 Bard 1/Emancipated Spawn 1/Sublime Chord>> 1/Rakshasa 14>> 18 Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard 1/Sublime Chord>> 1/Rakshasa 14>> 19 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/ Bard>> 1/Sublime Chord 1/Rakshasa 14 elusive target, +1>> Wis> As we note, he's not a shadow at this point, or a >Sublime Chord, or> his PrC Level is useless anyway.... so yeah... He's a >Rakshasa Bard 7.> Quake and terror. Not a shadow, which would have to make >him 30+ level> anyway, but can't since only humanoids can be shadows. >Ooops.Not a problem. Try actually reading the descriptions. And again, stop dragging over preconceptions from 3rd edition. His emancipated Spawn levels and their benefits haven't gone anywhere.>> Fourth Life: Human Again>> The Word undergoes the Ritual of Vitality again, but >>this>> time becomes a lowly human. This removes all of the>> Rakshasa levels, so the accumulated feats of comnbat>> casting, alertness, and combat reflexes are>> lost. But then he picks up 14 new levels by touching the>> Thought Bottle again.> Hmmm.. how many ways is this wrong.Good question. Let's take a trip through your hair-brained reasoning... > 1) The thought bottle contains the memories of a human >19> Contemplative 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Ur Priest 10/ >Wu Jen 1/Ranger> 3/ Bard 1. We can look at this as:Actually, it contains the Experience Points of a 19th level Ur Priest. > A) An exact image that a nice, liberal DM might allow a >confused> power-starved idiot to repent and change his character >back to the> exact same as he was before the transformation. The >Thought Bottle> is a save point. You've replayed the game, so you either >reload the> old save, or keep playing the new.Thanks for the Final Fantasy tie-in, but that's not how it works. The Thought Bottle is not a "save point", it doesn't give you back lost swag or undo baneful conditions. It's Experience Insurance. If you lose levels and XP for any reason, the Thought Bottle brings you up to the level you used to be. So the trick here is how to scam the insurance company.> Won't work the 20th level+ character he's already >higher than> the bottle image (19th) so it restores NOTHING.At no time do any of these transformations allow him to gain levels past 19th. > C) The ritual of transformation turned you into a human >yes, but> beyond this the DM is obliged to offer you NOTHING. You >could be a> new person entirely and thus unable to access someone >Else's memories> in the bottle, but free to store your 7 levels of bard!Ah... the old "The DM doesn't have to follow the rules" argument. Sure, whatever. The Wish and The Word only win D&D if played by the rules as written. That's all they were ever designed to do. Games where they are allowed to play in are rare. Of course, games played at 20th level are rare, so I'm OK with it.> 2) It restores levels lost to death and level drain. It >never states> that a ritual of transformation is a eligible loss, and >as read in> Savage Species is a totally voluntary process. The DM >would be well> in his rights to laugh at this application of the >bottle."When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP to exactly what it was when last stored"It doesn't matter if it's an "eligible level loss". His XP is currently less than it was when last stored. So by accessing the Thought Bottle, his XP is reset to the old higher value. End of discussion.The Thought Bottle does not step in when you lose a level, it's an object that you USE. And when you USE it, it checks your current and last stored XP values. It doesn't check how or why you may have lost levels in the interim.> 3) And unless you lowered your SR, the bottle can't even >affect you.> (CL 13 vs 34+ SR)1. You can voluntarily lower your own SR.2. The Thought Bottle is not a spell or spell-like ability, so it doesn't allow SR.>> 1 Emancipated Spawn 1 combat reflexes, sudden>> extend>> 2 Bard 1/ Emancipated Spawn 1>> 3 Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 elusive target>> Elusive Target is not presently legal, but it was legal>> when he got it, and the level he got it in has not gone>> away, so it sticks around and he can't use it until his>> BAB goes up past 6 – such as when he casts a Divine>> Persistent Divine Power.>> 4 Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1, +1>> Wis>> 5 Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated>> Spawn 2/Bard 1>> 6 Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach>> 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 scribe scroll, Inate>> Spell: Blasphemy (that's the one from PGtF)>> 7 Mage of the Arcane Order 1/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> Mage of the Arcane Order, of course, adds to the Sublime>> Chord Caster Levels.>> 8 Mage of the Arcane Order 2/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> sudden empower, +1 Wis>> 9 Mage of the Arcane Order 3/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy>> 10 Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> 11 Mage of the Arcane Order 5/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> 12 Mage of the Arcane Order 6/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> Improved Initiative, +1 Wis>> 13 Mage of the Arcane Order 7/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> 14 Mage of the Arcane Order 8/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> 15 Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime>> Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>> Inate Spell: Holy Word, Supernatural Transformation:>> Holy Word>> 16 Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard>> 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn>> 2/Bard 1 , +1 Wis>> 17 Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/>> Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach 1/Emancipated>> Spawn 2/Bard 1 quicken spell>> 18 Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage of the Arcane>> Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel Arcanamach>> 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1 Great Fortitude>> 19 Sorcerer 1/ Assassin 1/Wujen 1/ Warmage 1/Mage>> of the Arcane Order 9/ Wizard 1/Sublime Chord 1/ Suel>> Arcanamach 1/Emancipated Spawn 2/Bard 1>>>> Final Ability Scores: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 8, Wis>> 20, Cha 20, he also has 5 inherent bonuses to each stat,>> and +6 enhancements to each stat – so his final scores>> are:> From where... Seven levels of bard? Just stick with the > first progression its almost good.The infinite wishes that he has that can wish for any magical item in the DMG, including +5 stat-gain books and all the stat enhancers. >> 21, 21, 21, 19, 31, 31. Not terribly impressive, but >>they>> don't need to be.>> feats: Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil, Still Spell,>> rapid shot, endurance,Silent Spell, cooperative spell,>> extend spell, persistent spell, contingent spell, dodge,>> mobility, Weapon Finesse, divine persistent spell, Spell>> Focus: Enchantment, combat reflexes, sudden extend,>> elusive target, scribe scroll, Inate Spell: Blasphemy,>> sudden empower, Supernatural Transformation: Blasphemy,>> Improved Initiative, Inate Spell: Holy Word, >>Supernatural>> Transformation: Holy Word, quicken spell, Great >>Fortitude > No. 20th level character, Human 7+ Bonus Feat. Above >reasons why> entirely wrong should suffice.The bonus feats accumulate when you take Emancipated Spawn levels, dumbass. >> Skills of note:>> Search: 22 ranks>> Disable Device: 22 ranks>> Hide: 8+ ranks>> Disguise: 10 ranks>> Move Silently: 8+ ranks>> Knowledge: Arcana 13 ranks>> Knowledge: Religion 22 ranks>> Spellcraft: 22 ranks>>>> Note: I'm being purposefully vague about exactly how >>many>> skills he has, because he's used the Savage Species>> rituals several times – and exactly what happens to your>> skills when that happens is up for debate. It is >>entirely>> possible that he still has the Profession: Astrologer, >>the>> Tumble, the Jump, and all that crap left over from his >>old>> races.> They go away, like everything else.Perhaps you don't fully understand the Difference Engine. Allow me to enlighten you:When you lose a level, you are obliged to lose a number of skill points equal to the amount that you would have gained if you had instead been GAINING that level. However, just as you are under no special compulsion to purchase skills form class skills, you are also under no special compulsion to SELL class skills when a level is lost. The game doesn't even keep track of WHEN you bought your skill ranks, only how many of them you presently have in each skill.So if you take level loss as an opportunity to sell off cross-class skills (that you may well have purchased originally at the in-class rate via another class) at the 2 points for one rank rate. Then when levels are regained, you can purchase any skills you want - and if you choose to purchase only in-class skills that's between you and God.So yes, with a sufficiently complex multiclassed build, and enough Rituals of Vitality followed by Thought Bottle experiments, you can max you ranks in every skill.>> Spells of Note:>>>> The Word takes full advantage of the excentricities of >>the>> Ur Priest and the Sublime Chord. The Sublime Chord >>resets>> all of your arcane caster levels to the sum of all of >>your>> arcane caster levels. So in this case, since The Word >>has>> 8 separate Arcane Spellcasting classes with a caster>> level of 11. If he pulls an Orange Ioun Stone out of his>> pocket, all 8 classes increase by one, and all eight of>> them are set to the new sum – of 12. Repeat this with 17 >>more Stones,>> and we get a grant total of 28 for all his classes. The >>Ur Priest,>> which The Word can use as if he had all 10 levels of it>> thanks to his "Recall Class Features" ability of the>> Emancipated Spawn class, takes as its caster level half>> the sum of all other caster levels. In this case, that's>> half of eight times 28, which is 112, plus a base caster>> level of 10. So The Word casts all Arcane Spells at >>level>> 28, and all Divine spells at level one hundred and>> twenty-two.> So many of these classes can't exist in the same build >for so many> reasons....none of which actually apply to the 3.5 rules. >> The most important spells that The Word has are Holy>> Word and Blasphemy – both of which can be cast>> as spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities 3>> times/day. As supernatural abilities. The important part>> is the spellcaster levels that they can be cast at, >>which>> is one hundred and ten or higher. The other important >>part>> to keep in mind is that The Word is technically >>possessed>> of every single alignment, which means that when he>> casts Blasphemy he is not "not evil", and when he>> casts Holy Word he is not "not good". This means>> that is "evil" for the purposes of Holy Smite, but so>> what?> The actually character referenced by this at the most >GENEROUS of> interpretations is well above 70th level. And as such >should be> facing appropriate CRs like Gods, which automatically >save versus the> spells, and are immune to his mortal magic... he better >get> creative...No, he's still 19th level. Although yes, he does fight Gods. They do automatically make saves. Good thing Blasphemy doesn't allow one. >> The Word also amuses himself by periodically casting>> Clerical buffs on himself and his brother. Who would >>turn>> down an Extended Superior Resistance? It grants a>> +6 Resistance Bonus to all saves and lasts over nine >>days.>>>> Of more limited scope are the Sublime Chord spells. Most>> notable among them are Mordenkainen's Disjunction,>> Shapechange, Gate, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank,>> Greater Teleport, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Mass Charm,>> and Modify Memory. Of course, to an extent it doesn't>> really matter what spells he knows, because he's also >>got>> a spell pool for being a member of the Arcane Order. He>> can tax the spellpool out to half his caster level – >>which>> in this case means that he can suck out 155 spell >>levels.>>>> Items of Note:>> 18 Orange Ioun Stones for +caster level each (and more >>when added>> together) for 564,000.>>>> They aren't items, exactly, but The Word invested in>> several Rituals of Vitality. The Rakshasa transformation>> set our hero back 196,000 gp, paid in 14 stages of >>14,000>> gp. The human transformation was much cheaper – costing>> only 7,000 gp. He also underwent two Rituals of >>Alignment>> to gain the [Good] and [Chaotic] subtypes.>>>> The only truly necessary item is the Thought Bottle, >>that>> marvelous trinket from the Complete Arcane.>>>> What books are needed for this build?>> Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster >>Manual,>> Savage Species, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine,>> Complete Arcane, Player's Guide to Feyrun.>>>> The Duo>>>> Are these characters the perfect duo?>>>> Yes.>>>> The Wish and The Word are the most powerful >>spellcasters.>> Ever. The Word has stolen the powers of the gods>> themselves, and The Wish has torn the rigid rules of>> arcane power asunder. The two of them flippantly >>disregard>> the guidelines of spells/day limits or caster level>> paradigms that so constrain lesser spellcasters. Having>> broken free of the self-imposed limitations of Arcane >>and>> Divne Magic, The Wish and The Word can adventure with>> confidence against Epic Challenges and gods. There has>> never been a published challenge which is a serious >>threat>> to the brothers. > No.> > The Duo don't exist.Right... they are characters in a cooperative storytelling game. They really don't exist. What's your point?> The are fictitious and illegal in so many ways that even >a 2nd Edition> sollipsism can't believe in them. I cut the rest of that >crap since> it relies on ANY of the above being possible, which, its >not.But you haven't provided any good reasons, nor any page citations. I have. They refute you. You're an idiot. Now that we are past the insults phase, how does that crow taste? -Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Amber? Aw crap, but that was some time ago.I would like to thank the people who have contributed to this. If I ever get the chance to DM again, I will know what to not allow.I was not a big fan of most prestige classes anyway, and this just enforces it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugin Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Really?DnD isn't really much without the Prestige Classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 How did we manage for so many years without them, then? Seriously, in the last game I ran (way back in 3.0), I had to decide which Prestige Classes were allowable, which were only for NPC's, and which were right out.I play D&D for fantasy roleplaying, not for rules-lawyering, and almost every book that I have read has one or two Pretige Classes which I feel to be overpowering ... and occassionally one or two that are too weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singularity Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 *shrug* I love the concept of prestige classes but that's just me. Plus, the prestige classes are like anything in a RPG: pick the ones you like, deny the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugin Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Well, back in 2.0 one of the complaints I often heard was that a fighter was a fighter was a fighter. While the roleplayed concept could be different it was still annoying that the only hard differences between one fighter and another was their equipment. Prestige Classes and Feats allow each person to completely personalize their character. Fighting styles, abilities, and all that now can be different. I appreciate that. As for putting limits on what characters can and cannot do that's always been the responsibility for the DM to excercise. I guess I don't see much of a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby1024 Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Quote:Originally posted by Dreamer: D20 has so many problems that I can't think of any redeaming future in the system other than it is not as bad others.It can be fun, but nearly every "bonus" it has is a fault. One suspects that the primary reason people do not like d20 is not the system, but simply the people who play it. d20 as a system is one of the better systems out there - possibly the best example of a purely Gamist system that emphasises that aspect as much as possible. This is not a bad thing - Indeed, it's actually pretty damn fantastic because if you're not a Gamist player, d20 isn't going to trick you into thinking you'll like it. It's pure competitive roleplay at it's best (in this case, PCs vs GM), and that's a brilliant thing to behold.This is in stark opposition to, say, Storyteller that has a Narrativist aim for the system, using Simulationist assumptions, complete with a Gamist combat resolution system. This may seem like a good thing, "Something for everyone" as it were, but has the problem that you invariably have to throw elements of the game out that you and your group don't like, which I think is a poor thing for a system to exemplify. If you don't think the rules will work for what you're trying to get people to play, then why on earth did you put them in there in the first place? The GM should not have to massage the system into shape in order to make it playable. I'm sorry, but that's wrong on so many levels.As much as I love Storyteller, I have a lot of issues with ST1.0 and ST1.5. And while I'm not fond of d20, and I prefer to play other things, I actually have very few issues with the system other than "I can't play the games I want with it", which isn't a crime by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 I love playing with people I know who play D20.I do not love D20. I find the Combat to be dry, and borring. I find the magic to be anything but magical. I find the feats to be too few and too small. Ifind the damage to be silly. I find the level pregression to be well ...I dislike the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noir Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Then play Exalted. It is a sweet game and sounds right up you alley.~Noir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singularity Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Alright, what is a good system then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 The Systems I like?Well,i am somewhat a fan of trisat.I dig the story teller systems, and shaodwrun.I dislike systems that make it impossible for you to wright a good story and still stay true the rules. D20 has it set up, where you have to nerf the rules or the story.It does so in magic, hit point,class and level system.I further dislike systems that if you increases your power in one area you have to do it in all areas. A powerful mage Ie one that can high level spells has to be better at fighting than low ranking fighter. It just how things go.Somoen who is skilled in things has to be highly unkillable with knives.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singularity Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 *shrug* To each their own. I personally find d20 to be the best fantasy game out there. I don't think it lends itself to every genre, but it excels in its chosen arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 But I don't even think it does that well.Hit points alone mena that one arrow can't kill your character.Magic feels way to like a tool to make it magical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singularity Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Not at first level, a nice critical hit with an arrow can even take down a powerful fighter at low levels.Or get rid of hit points and switch to the wound and vitality points system. Then your NPC mooks will be mowed down like grass and a critical hit can kill anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby1024 Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Quote:Originally posted by Gypsy Girl: But I don't even think it does that well.Hit points alone mena that one arrow can't kill your character.As a brief note, in Storyteller the same situation presents itself, except worse. Guns will almost never kill in one shot, let alone arrows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splitmind Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 In the D20 Modern system, it's quite possible to die in one round, no matter how many hit points you have, from one gunshot due to the D20 Massive Damage rules. If you don't like the idea of your character taking three arrows without flinching, use Modern Massive Damage. This still favors the higher-HP crowd, but it means that anyone can be taken down to dying if they take 18 damage, which a rifle can do on a non-crit.I like D20 because it doesn't make me feel invincible, but I also feel like there's a definite difference between me and Thug #1. It lends itself very well to systems like, for instance, Metal Gear. Snake can easily take out any guard, and he can do seemingly impossible things when the circumstances require it. But set him locked in a room with 6 guys armed as well as he is and it's about as tough as some one-on-one battles against opponents of equal level. Likewise, there's a wide range of values between "bloody awful" and "unbelievable" in any skill.For the same reason, of course, D20 doesn't feel right for, say, Aberrant. In Aberrant you're either going to die from two or three bullets or wade through gunfire without a care, as a general rule. D20 lends itself to more gradual power differentials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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