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I liked it better than X3, which is saying a lot.

As a writer, I thought they made some really questionable calls and taking the whole X film franchise into account, I think it hurt more than helped. But it certainly didn't hurt more than X3 did.

On the other hand, I thought Liev Schreiber and Hugh Jackman worked very well together, and Ryan Reynolds did a bang-up job playing Wade Wilson as a smart-ass who never shuts up. Loved it. I thought the guy who played Fred Dukes did well, too.

Looking forward to X-Men Origins: Magneto.

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I've seen it twice, and overall I was happy with it. There were several continuity issues but the acting was good enough that I was able to get over it.

You are correct,Liev Schreiber and Hugh Jackman worked very well together. I was impressed with Gambit, as well as Agent Zero. John Wraith coulda used some work.

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Yeah, overall the acting was pretty enjoyable. As someone who didn't follow the comics enough to keep the continuity stuff really straight, I was okay with most of it.

I have to admit, I was a little disappointed - not in their handling of Gambit (although one of these days they're gonna find an actor out there who can actually manage a Cajun accent, instead of just a southern one), but in the limited screen time. Obviously the movie was centered around Wolverine, and I didn't expect him to be a huge role, but I'm a Gambit junkie and wouldn't have minded seeing a bit more of him than we did.

I have to agree with you guys on the Hugh Jackman/Liev Schreiber thing. They did a very good job with their interactions. I'm kind of glad they didn't get Tyler Mane back, I'm not sure if he would have done as good of a job as Schreiber did. I've heard tales of a Gambit spin-off, but that makes me a little nervous. Much as this movie did before I saw it, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it was as good as it was because Hugh Jackman was the producer, attached to the character, and wanted to make sure it was treated with respect. I'm not so sure about a Gambit movie, as much as I'd love one to be made that's good.

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I think it suffered from the "Lets get as many super-types as possible into this film, character development be fucked" syndrome. But it wasn't as bad as I feared.

Schrieber did a good job. Reynolds was born to play a role that could have been far more. Will.i.am did fine. And Gambit didn't make me want to puke, which the character normally does.

I really had to do some extensive thinking during the film though to help pave over some potential plot holes. Movie shouldn't make me work so hard to buy it's premises.

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Its because Fox's executives have zero reverance for these characters that they continue to botch comic movies.

I cant wait til 20th Century Fox's rights are up and Marvel can buy them back.

Haven't seen the movie yet becuase I heard they screwed up and gave Deadpool Mimic's power.

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Not exactly.

They pretty much changed Deadpool's whole concept/origin.

You oughtta see it. It's a good and enjoyable action movie, if you just forget that there's been three X-Men movies before this.

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Ah, whatever. X3 was fine for what it was. We get our expectations so high that we can't enjoy a story with cool special effects anymore. Can you imagine if you had seen that movie when you were a kid? It would have blown your mind. Maybe W:O is a better movie. Maybe it's more in tune with your concept of an X film. If so, great! I am down with good movies. I wish every one was of Iron Man caliber. But, hell, I'm just glad they're making them. Not every comic was Chris Claremont good, either, but I still read 'em. Every month.

Now, Dungeons & Dragons, THAT was a disappointing movie! (Has your DM ever let you distract a beholder with a thrown rock? Yeah, mine either.)

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Originally Posted By: Titan
Can you imagine if you had seen that movie when you were a kid? It would have blown your mind. Maybe W:O is a better movie. Maybe it's more in tune with your concept of an X film. If so, great! I am down with good movies. I wish every one was of Iron Man caliber. But, hell, I'm just glad they're making them. Not every comic was Chris Claremont good, either, but I still read 'em. Every month.

Titan: keeping it real since 2004.
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The issue I have with this movie are unlikely to be solved ever. That is Wolverine is most likely the last interesting comic book character they would make a movie into. He is a pint up ball of teenage agnest with no real character goals. His powers are, he is nearly a marry sue, with the power of the most witty lines the writer can think of.

,,

His claws are not suited for any movie I would take my children to. He is a harden combat vet with with main weapons being things that can cut tank armor and yet, he doesn't gut people.. Yea I buy that.

I will not go into having unbreakable bones would not make you unbreakable, with his healing factor.

The end of the day, what can I say. I think the character is not suited for the morals they have in Marvel, his witty lines that change his whole character's view point based on the writer wit make him look like a dim wit. But that is enough, you can tell that I dislike the character, any more details would be just repeating myself.

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I think the character is not suited for the morals they have in Marvel...

Sure. He's designed to *kill*, pure and simple. This is by definition an "R" rated subject, and some of the comics have reflected this.

But as he's become more and more popular, for business reasons he's been exposed to a wider and wider audience, which means by definition PG-ish.

He's not the only character we've seen this happen to. IMHO the most extreme examples are the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Roger Rabbit. Both of them went from "R" to "G". The turtles were designed as killers, and the first few comics were drenched with blood.

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Quote:
Ah, whatever. X3 was fine for what it was. We get our expectations so high that we can't enjoy a story with cool special effects anymore. Can you imagine if you had seen that movie when you were a kid? It would have blown your mind.


Bollocks. X3 was rubbish on so many levels. The thin plot, rediculous and phoney looking CGI and bad acting that pandered to the lowest possible pop culture denominator (I'm the Juggernaut Bitch!).

And that isn;t even going into how they botched Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, "killed" the Prof and striped Magneto of his powers. Overall travesty and yes, as a kid I would have been just as pissed and dissapointed giving the studios money to rape my favorite characters over a script-barrel.

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He is a pint up ball of teenage agnest with no real character goals.


Shows what you know. Call me a fanboi if you like but I;ve read Claremont...obviously you haven't Wolverine has a lot of depth to him actually and if he's a Mary Sue then it;s one fucked up fanatsy. Do you have any idea of the scope of personal tragedy, not to mention physical agony that poor mutant has been through???

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His claws are not suited for any movie I would take my children to. He is a harden combat vet with with main weapons being things that can cut tank armor and yet, he doesn't gut people.. Yea I buy that.


The link below is a vid that shows the new Wolvie video game. I actually think the depictions of him fighting have nailed it better than any movie, cartoon or videogame to date. They really show his berserker fighting style...my favorite part is when he rips off the guys arm and beats him to death with it!!!

http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/14267365/...aws_050109.html

laughpopcornlaugh



Lastly I just want to say that the original ninja turtles rocked but all I knew (and loved) of them was from the cartoon originally and later the live action movies. I didn't discover the hardcore comics until I was in high school.
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Originally Posted By: SkyLion
Shows what you know. Call me a fanboi if you like but I;ve read Claremont...obviously you haven't Wolverine has a lot of depth to him actually and if he's a Mary Sue then it;s one fucked up fanatsy. Do you have any idea of the scope of personal tragedy, not to mention physical agony that poor mutant has been through???

As a note, this is actually a Mary Sue trope: The "Angsty" Sue. An "Angsty Sue is characterized by: "a character who is constantly depressed and has a tragic past, frequently involving murder, child abuse, rape, or abandonment of some sort. (emphasis mine)" There are two sub-types of this sub-type: the angsty route or the revenge route. Both routes allow the character to either felt guilt or indulge in revenge without moral censure because they haven't done anything "wrong" (which is totally a matter of opinion). Wolvie is a classic Angsty Sue on the road of revenge, at least in his past that I've read.

This isn't a matter of having a fantasy that's "fucked-up" but of having a tragic past for the protag to valiantly overcome or to soldier on under circumstances that would crush most people. Yes, I recognize the irony of posting this statement on this account; it would be easy to accuse Livy of being an Angsty Sue. I hope that I've managed to deviate from the trope on a few key points; namely that some of the crap that has happened to her is completely her fault.

Personal statements of defense aside, Macali is right: Wolvie is a very successful Mary Sue. There's nothing wrong with a Mary Sue inherently; when done well, they appeal to the reader/viewer because they push certain buttons, and they are written to be awesome. You just have to be careful with them; it's easy to overuse them and turn them into the "author's pet". Then you have readers coming to despise the Mary Sue if the author pushes how awesome they are too much.
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Originally Posted By: SkyLion


Quote:
He is a pint up ball of teenage agnest with no real character goals.


Shows what you know. Call me a fanboi if you like but I;ve read Claremont...obviously you haven't Wolverine has a lot of depth to him actually and if he's a Mary Sue then it;s one fucked up fanatsy. Do you have any idea of the scope of personal tragedy, not to mention physical agony that poor mutant has been through???


He has had how many "real" back stories?He has had how many loves of a life time?He has had how many writers? Youa re right I have not read every single comic book with this character in it, but even if they wrote a mater piece with him in it. I would not like the character. He is flat, and borring. I would step back and say, wow. Someone put a lot of effort into making a character worth wile. Just imagine if they ou tthat much effort into a worth wile character in the first place.
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I have no idea what that says up there...

Anyway...

Since this is a Wolverine thread I thought I'd ask a bit of Wolverine trivia.

In the movie, and in the comic comic books, fans may know the Wolverine has a knack for smelling the government. He identifies government agents by one specific trait that they all possess...

Anyone know what it is Wolvie smells on those agents?

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The Jest of what I was trying to say was that, no mater how good one story with said character maybe, there is so much shitty stories with that character that it is a wasted effort on the said story is pointless. There is no reason to read it. It is so far out of character of what he normally is like you may as well write a story with Good ol' W as an atheist.

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Quote:
The Jest of what I was trying to say was that, no mater how good one story with said character maybe, there is so much shitty stories with that character that it is a wasted effort on the said story is pointless. There is no reason to read it. It is so far out of character of what he normally is like you may as well write a story with Good ol' W as an atheist.

Okay, so you don't like the guy, point taken. Others do however and are able to accept the fact that sometimes a character get shredded because some other writer takes over or that a movie might not be perfect because there is only so much we can stuff into an 1:47 minutes.

I still think the movie was well done, and despite some god awful writing, enough of the Wolverine comics have been done well enough that I continue to enjoy the character of James Howlett. It's a good read.

Quote:
I'm gonna say Wolverine can smell someone lying...and government agents habitually lie.

He can smell lying... but it's not the specific trait.
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Also, bone claws: what's up with that?
I think someone realized that since his power was "animal abilities" they were in theme.

They were hinted at a long time before he lost the adamtium btw. They had some flash back to where he was getting the implants and someone noticed that an unusually large amount of the stuff was going into his arms.

And yes, this doesn't really jibe with him "first" discovering he had them when Heather found him...

Much later they claimed that after he murdered his father(?) as a boy with them he was so traumatized he never popped them again (whee, retro-edits. But then again the original character was supposed to have the claws as part of gloves so whatever).
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Originally Posted By: Courier
Quote:
Also, bone claws: what's up with that?
I think someone realized that since his power was "animal abilities" they were in theme.

They were hinted at a long time before he lost the adamtium btw. They had some flash back to where he was getting the implants and someone noticed that an unusually large amount of the stuff was going into his arms.


This really came into play during Barry Windsor Smith's WEAPON X story. It still doesn't explain why they look the way they do; his bone claws are far rounder than the triangular wedges that he has after his adamantium was implanted. To shape them this way would have required deliberate "molds" to be inserted into his arm and then removed later, and that's something that is never dealt with in any medium.

In X23, the young female clone of Logan has her claws filed down into the shape they will eventually take, but that makes no sense either, considering her healing factor should have repaired them.
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My issue with bone claws is more thematic than continuity related - I don't like their presence in this movie either. It doesn't ruin the film for me, it just doesn't feel right.

There's a school of thought in comics and in superheroic comics that a truly iconic character design is one you can pick out in silhouette. Batman has this design; Superman does, assuming you're not looking at one of his derivatives with the lights down low. Even if Wolverine's distinctive haircut and mask were absent, the visual of his claws is so striking that they instantly become the most identifiable part of the character.

I like that this most iconic element is not a mutant power at all, but something that was given to him because he was a mutant and his ability to heal could be exploited in this way. It made him stand apart even from the other X-Men. It made him an outcast among outcasts. And it had a nice touch, that his most trusted weapon came about because he was horribly violated.

I also like Cyclops and this is one of the reasons why, because in some ways he's Wolverine's mirror - Wolverine's "prop" makes him tougher than he'd normally be, but Cyclops' sunglasses only serves to elevate him to the rank of normal, functioning human being.* I think way too much about superheroes.

* I didn't think ruby quartz sunglasses were available at Wal-Mart, but hey

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Quote:
There's a school of thought in comics and in superheroic comics that a truly iconic character design is one you can pick out in silhouette...
I dislike that school.

Wolverine, Batman, even Superman... they're either not human or their backgrounds are so alien they might as well not be human. That makes it seriously hard for me to relate to them or understand the choices they make.

Worse, I suspect that the reason I don't understand their choices because their choices don't make any sense given their background. Given Wolverine's background he *should* be as crazy as Sabertooth.

Normal people with normal backgrounds should be able to opt for the heroic life. I have a better understanding of (and therefore respect for) Spiderman, or that artist guy who replaced Green Lantern.

If you need to have an origin like Batman's or Superman's then the world is doomed because there shouldn't be many out there like them. Even one strains credibility.
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Aww.. Courier, now you're taking all the fun out of it. laugh

I think people do take comic books and superheroes too seriously sometimes. Not that they should be all campy and such.. I'm not a big fan of camp. But the important thing is that these are different worlds, and these stories are written to appeal to us in an emotional manner. I think getting caught up in the details and the complexity loses a little bit of it for people.

Now, if that's what you want to do, go ahead and do it, and I'm okay with that. But I don't necessarily know that stories like this need to be one hundred percent credible. That's not what they're there for. I suppose that's why I don't have a problem with the concept of a Mary Sue (or an Angsty Sue, or whatever) - AS LONG AS IT'S WRITTEN WELL. I should emphasize that last part. laugh

Of course, I'm selective about my movies in other ways too.. I'm a bit of an acting snob, and I can overlook some pretty painful scripting issues if the acting is well performed and emotional. And I can watch about 1% of existing romantic comedies without gagging. But I'm glad I'm the kind of person who can watch a movie for what it is most of the time, without focusing on how much it's like the comic, or the movie before it, or the book. I believe in taking them at face value, without needing to stack them up against all their predecessors. There's things movies and plays are capable of that books and comics aren't, and vice versa. They all have their ups and downs.

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Originally Posted By: Aradia McConnell
I think people do take comic books and superheroes too seriously sometimes.


You should hang out at tombraiderchronicles.com, where the fact that Lara hasn't worn her "classic" outfit, nor has she braided her hair, for the past 2 games considered one of the most unforgivable crimes against the franchise committed.
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Originally Posted By: Juri 'Salamander' McClendon
Originally Posted By: Aradia McConnell
I think people do take comic books and superheroes too seriously sometimes.


You should hang out at tombraiderchronicles.com, where the fact that Lara hasn't worn her "classic" outfit, nor has she braided her hair, for the past 2 games considered one of the most unforgivable crimes against the franchise committed.


/twitches

Because, you know.. god forbid the *part time model* change outfits or hairstyles every once in awhile.
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Originally Posted By: Aradia McConnell
Originally Posted By: Juri 'Salamander' McClendon
Originally Posted By: Aradia McConnell
I think people do take comic books and superheroes too seriously sometimes.


You should hang out at tombraiderchronicles.com, where the fact that Lara hasn't worn her "classic" outfit, nor has she braided her hair, for the past 2 games considered one of the most unforgivable crimes against the franchise committed.


/twitches

Because, you know.. god forbid the *part time model* change outfits or hairstyles every once in awhile.


To be fair, the model wears the style the character designer has come up with for the new game.

But the same twitch applies, because Lara herself is never allowed to change.
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Personal statements of defense aside, Macali is right: Wolvie is a very successful Mary Sue.


I had thought to be a Mary Sue you had to be perfect and invincible and undefeatable. When Wolverine went to Japan he had his ass handed to him by some samurai...not mutants...just well trained humans with swords.

That arc and alot of his stuff in Madripool as patch really flesh out his story and personality to I really have no idea what Wesson is talking about. Also in Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine he has his ass literally handed to him when the Hulk rips him in half. He gets too beat up and has been too messed with in his head to truly be a Mary Sue. As for the Angsty Sue and all of the other drivel at tvtropes I pretty much ignore it all as pedantic.

Also I am in agreement with Mike: His claws were bionic and implaneted with the skeleton to take advantage of his healing factor. Also in my mind Romulus does not exist and there is to be no mention of "lupines"...
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Originally Posted By: SkyLion
I had thought to be a Mary Sue you had to be perfect and invincible and undefeatable. When Wolverine went to Japan he had his ass handed to him by some samurai...not mutants...just well trained humans with swords.

That arc and alot of his stuff in Madripool as patch really flesh out his story and personality to I really have no idea what Wesson is talking about. Also in Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine he has his ass literally handed to him when the Hulk rips him in half. He gets too beat up and has been too messed with in his head to truly be a Mary Sue. As for the Angsty Sue and all of the other drivel at tvtropes I pretty much ignore it all as pedantic.

You know... I was going to answer all this bullshit, but stopped myself. It's apparent that Sky has his opinion, and has no desire to even consider another.

Sky, next time you want to have a discussion, please discuss. Dismissing someone else's points as 'pendantic' without defending that opinion as such is insulting to anyone who bothered to try to have a real discussion.
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Quote:
When Wolverine went to Japan he had his ass handed to him by some samurai...not mutants...just well trained humans with swords.
They can do this on a regular basis? Or was this an excuse to "make" Wolverine go back and righteously kill them all?

Quote:
I had thought to be a Mary Sue you had to be perfect and invincible and undefeatable.
Who can (easily) defeat Wolverine? Who would just "own" him in combat? Galactus?

What flaws does he have? He's short, hairy, heavy, routinely uses deadly weapons, and is almost uncontrolled because he's subject to "berserk" rages. He's a loner and somewhat anti-social. Let's look at each of these in turn.

He's short & hairy. I.e. at best he's plain looking and at worse he's weird looking... but he's also a hot-babe magnet (being anti-social must help).

He's a loner but he regularly joins teams.

He's a rebel against authority but that normally doesn't cause problems.

He's HEAVY... but he doesn't have any problems swimming or climbing or anything.

He's subject to berserk rages and reflexively uses absurdly deadly weapons... so how many teammates has he killed/maimed by accident? How many civilians? Basically his *savage* anger is only used on people who really deserve it (the power of plot protects everyone else).

Similarly, he ran with Weapon X for years, with Sabertooth, and was basically a hit man... without abusing anyone who didn't deserve it.

So, he's been around for a century or two with all these flaws... how many of the problems he faces are his own fault? Far as I can tell most of his problems are unjustly inflicted on him by other (evil) people.
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... and, to top it all off, in at least one alternate timeline story, Wolvie regenerated from something like a molecule.

That being said, I personally agree that Wolverine is not a typical 'Sue' of either the Mary or Agsty variety. One of the prereqs is that most readers roll their eyes and think the character is stupidly pushed forward as 'awesome', when in fact they are merely a poorly thought out concept with overdeveloped powers or weapons. Logan is an overwhelming fan favorite, and while he is pushed forward, it was as a result of his popularity, not the other way around. The concept seems sound to me, and fairly original for the Seventies. His powers are overdeveloped, but not typically used to their maximum very often.

On the other hand, YMMV.

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Originally Posted By: Courier
Who can (easily) defeat Wolverine? Who would just "own" him in combat? Galactus?


Silver Samurai. Franklyn (The Fantastic Four character). Scarlet Witch. Hulk (See: World War Hulk). The Sentry. Prof X (I mean, when he wasn't dead, anyway). Sabertooth when he had the adamantium skeleton.


Jus' sayin'.
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...to be fair, that's a pretty damned effective combination, all things considered. I mean.. run that by yourself again. Unbreakable bones, claws (which you should add are also unbreakable, and sharp enough to cut through about anything), and regeneration. Yes, I know I just repeated what you said, bear with me, I'm sleepy.

Although to be fair, there is one very non-cosmic level character who can defeat Wolverine fairly easily. Maybe not kill him, but defeat him. Magneto. Or at least, it's been proven that he can rip ALL THE METAL out of Logan's body, which does a pretty damned good job of almost killing him, and taking away one of his big three - unbreakable bones/claws that cut through anything. Of course I didn't read that whole series of comics or anything, so don't hold me to the details.. I just remember reading that it happens. Magneto ripped out your metal skeleton = ouch. Big ouch.

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