Railroading is fun?

[Miss Baby]

I am not trying to attack, anyone here..So if anyone is offended,I am sorry.

It seems that some people who run games, do not trust players.They may think they do,but they don't.

This is a problem,for many people, but what winds up happening is this. PCs, are not the center of the story,they rather are window dressing, so to speak.The NPCs,both friend and foe more powerful than the PCs.Basiclly, making what the PCs do null and void.So why are the PCs there?

Maybe there is a large plot,and that large plot is too big for the PCs.One could simply, make it clear that the PCs will change the end of the story..but most likely,only in how much one side win,or losses.But when the plot line basically seems to be,no mater what the PCs do, this will happen..Or even what ideas the PCs come up with change things, but they have to use NPCs to get things done.Well, basically it boils down to this, if the PCs, have to use NPCs to get things done, why are they not playing the (N)PCs,and have their "PCs"be NPCs?

[Sphere]

One of the biggest problems in Aberrant is the presence of NPCs which can quite easily dominate the game and reduce the PCs to bit-players. I mean, from a Player perspective, what's the point in taking on Pax when someone like Mal or Antaeus have a far better chance of beating him?

In the corebook, I think in the section about alligiences, it mentions that there are very few independant groups of Novas, not counting research/ explorer types like the Daedalus League, or isolationists like the Protectors. But groups composed of Novas who are pro-active in world events.

I really liked that idea when I read it. Here was a chance to play a game where the PCs would play a pivotal role in a world's events. Initially I set the PCs up as National Defenders of the UK as a handy way to introduce them into the world. Now they're off the leash and on the run, making important decisions which will affect how the future is going to turn out.

Outside of the game I've told the Players a few things about how the future turns out, such as the War and the Nova exodus off-planet. But how they get there is up to them. Are they the Novas who stay behind to guard Earth from Aberrant assaults? Are they the seed of the Eden community? Are they the small grain of sand that starts the Aberrant War decades before it officially began? Who knows?

The thing is with the "God"-level NPCs. They're not unbeatable. If that were the case then the Teragen wouldn't be so scared about baseline responses to the terrorist attacks performed by their radical factions. If my Players plan it right and the dice roll in their favour then there is no reason in the world why they shouldn't be able to beat someone like Pax.

The Players may not be the heaviest hitters in the Age of Novas, but as the old saying goes "For the want of a nail, a shoe was lost. For the ant of a shoe, a horse was lost. etc"

Thoughts?

[Sphere]

For the ant of a shoe!?! That's just too surreal for words.

[Centipede]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ghetto Funk Baby:
I am not trying to attack, anyone here..So if anyone is offended,I am sorry.

Sorry, but I think you failed. Since you are not offering anything constructive, I see this as an attack.

Also, as far as I see it, railroading and uberpowerful npc:s are two very different things.

Railroading can be fun, very fun, but it isn't always the best choice. Being the underdog can also be fun, what you need is to be told that your struggles make a difference. Or if it turns out that way, you need to be told (perhaps out of character) how you screwed up.

[Sakurako Hino]

This EXACTLY reminds me of a problem I had in a Star Wars campaign I was in no more than 2 months ago.

I was playing a character who, when the balls are to the wall, would pull things off in the clutch. My character was in a hostage scenario (and she was the hostage) who was the bait for a Bounty Hunter that both I and the Character did not trust. We had finally met up with the other player characters at hoth, and he was trying to make a deal with ME as the bargaining piece. Namely, he wanted to get to the Hutts, or so he was saying. I decided it was time to take my freedom into my own hands and take a risk. I tried to grab the detonator he had. I failed the initiative roll with a 1. He blew me up.

What pissed me off, is that the reason why the GM let it happen is because, in his words, I was ruining his campaign. Not only that, but the week before, he had angered me and I chicked some dice in protest, and he said if any of them would have hit him he would have killed ME.

Needless to say I was actually glad to have left. (By the way, he says he kicked me out, that is an out right lie like everything else he says.)

[Stonewall]

I've been GM'ing for a really long time. I've seldom killed a player's character. I have on occasion made them wish they were dead, but in my viewpoint the characters of any game should be treated as the central characters. While there may be more powerful people, and should be - the characters themselves should form the pivotal role in anyone's chronicle.

As a Gamemaster, it's your responsibility to craft a scenario in which the characters can have a reason for being - and present them with opportunities to make a difference, each in their own way.

A GM that kills a player as a response to her role-playing a true-to-life character (as in Endeavor's example above,) is really letting himself down. "Ruining a game" is what most of my players do best. No plan lasts more than five minutes after contact with the enemy. As a GM, I find that sometimes, when things are going well, I can just lie back and enjoy the ride.

Stonewall

[Sakurako Hino]

One, the thought of the players being "the enemy" makes my stomach churn. A functional and well run game DEPENDS AND THRIVES off of a mutual trust between the game host (about as system generic as I can get) and the players.

If one side thinks of the other as ENEMYS, well, there's trouble in paradise.

[target]

I have experienced the hardship of uselessness in a game before. played a game for three years, in high school, medieval D&D like world. the DM changed the system all the time, and he kept saying it was for the better of the game, but every time he did it, we had to remake and he still kept the same NPC's, and Everytime there was a quest, puzzle, or even a special thing to do, the NPC's were always the ones doing it. It was like plaing a bad video game with ONE plot line!!! how good is it to find you are not strong enough to fight when your close friend is whomping 10 guys with a single blow??!!??!!? no wonder the game died on bad terms. NEway, trust is needed and the Dm also has to think about his players having a mutual part in the story. most people DM with a clear path in front of them, I choose to have stepping stones across a river, so to speak. No real path, just hooks and clues for the players to find and figure out.

to sum it all up, BLAH BLAH BLAH

[Jager]

Quote:

trust is needed and the Dm also has to think about his players having a mutual part in the story.

Amen.

[Stonewall]

"No plan lasts more than five minutes after contact with the enemy."

Endeavor, that's a quote from one of my players, actually. My relationship with my troupe is quite amiable - I have one player telecommuting to my games after a recent move to Florida.

I was making the statement in regards to most plotlines. target's "Stepping Stones" statement above is a fairly good one.

I give them hooks, and try to reel them in the directionI'd like the game to go. But it's amazing how often, when I ask "Do you want to go north, south, EAST, or west?", how many times they go up. : )

[Longboard]

that quote is actually in one of the supplemental books...

Ive always had bomb GMs. I guess Im lucky. and NPCs dont have to exist in your game if it bugs you. isnt the whole point of paper and pencil RPGs to make youre own story, and the "core books" do exactly what they say, they offer guide lines, its written on paper in ink, not engraved in stone.

[Sakurako Hino]

*sniffs*

I smell the influence of GOO on you boy. You play Silver Age Sentinels? You sound like my type of gamer, brah.

[target]

Yeah, I just wish I could follow my own advice.

I have experimented with DMing lots of times and every time I get great characters, great starts, and great events(stepping stones if you will) but I never get to conclude ANYTHING!!

and it's my fault, I give the PC's lots of angles to choose from, and free reign to go anywhere they feel they should, but when they do make a decision, I somehow am left grasping for some kinda structure to support my party's choice. I dunno, maybe some people are destined for DMing and others are left with PC!!

side note: EXALTED ROCKS THE HIZZOUSE!!

love the system, love the setting, love the LUNARS

props to the WW team for that bomb!!

[Sakurako Hino]

*shrugs*

I avoid Exhalted because it's supposed to be a lead into the WoD storyline. As if we need another thing dealing with the World of Darkness. To me it feels like it takes too much from The Lord of the Rings for my comfort.

It's my opinion that WW hasn't come out with anything original since the Aeoniverse.

[Hugin]

Didn't we find out recently that WW recanted that? That Exalted now doens't necessarily lead up to WoD?

Not like I buy it. I mean, the Lunars aren't just Werewolves? Yeah, pull the other one buddy.

[Wakinyan]

Well having the Apocaylpse book in hand they say in it Exalted could be the next age after the World of Darkness. They leave this as an option of course WW never likes doing anything to set in stone.

[Sakurako Hino]

WRONG

WW has mentioned SEVERAL times that Exhalted is BEFORE WoD. The standard WoD takes place in The Fifth Age's end, and the start of the age of sorrows (The Sixth). Exhalted is in the Second or Third. I can't remember which, but it was from WW's mouth.

What we see as the "New" WoD will probably be the 6th age WoD. If it is even WoD that is next.

[Ashnod]

Vampire: The Requiem, is the next title. They've also got one slated for Werewolf. Sounds very much anothe WoD style setting, at least.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
WRONG

Heyyyyyy, calm down. Yes, I remember much of the same thing But as other people on this board have pointed out, WW backed off of that claim and now don't claim that Exalted is pre-WoD. I have no idea why, but that is apparently the case.

[Sakurako Hino]

Hmm. Then my assumptions are right.

With their "ending" WoD, the apparent death and rebirth of the Aeoniverse, and the confusion over Exhalted, I have only one verdict.

WW has a lack of direction, and is heading into dire straights.

And I'm being blunt not out of spite, but a general frustration over WW's recent creative approach. They could do WAY better, but they're only going in circles chasing their tails at worst and maybe using creative re-writing at best.

I'm just frustrated at the lack of honesty WW protrays to their fan base.

[Wakinyan]

At Gencon Indy last summer in a Q&A session Justin, Ethan and several others where asked flat out if exalted was related in anyway to the WOD. They said in no way shape or form that it was. Then 6 months later we have a section in the last werewolf: the apocalypse book that says it could be post WOD.

Keep in mind they also swear that WOD 2.0 will have nothing to do with the first WOD. Whole new story, just keeping the supernatural critters. We'll see about that.

,,

To me I don't care one way or the other. WW has slapped me around since they screwed with Aberrant and seemed to kill it on purpose.

[Kirby1024]

The solution to this supposed paradox is actually quite simple:

They're leaving it open, as well they should.

The links between the WoD and Exalted are there for GMs and Players to use should they wish, however, should GMs have their own vision of either Exalted's future, or the WoD's past, they should feel free to disregard the links. It's that simple, and quite frankly, I'd be rather pissed if they decided for players and GMs one way or the other.

It is, perhaps a matter of poor communication, as opposed to a flip-flop. Justin and Ethan, being WoD line developers, stated that Exalted is not related to the WoD, and they're perfectly right. That said, that's not stopping anyone else from deciding to utilise possible links, and since they're not canonically connected, what's the problem with throwing a few Exalted players a couple of bones to play with? Certainly it makes sense in terms of sales.

It's not a matter of lack of direction - more likely poor communication, combined with a sudden spurt of activity - White Wolf is working the Apocalypse, primarily because letting it go for much longer will start to strain credulity. Also, with WoD 1.0 gone, they can start getting to work finding fresh directions for each of the various lines. I welcome it.

White Wolf's writing has become consistently more mature for the past several years (as anyone taking a stroll through a Core book in 1st, 2nd and Revised can attest to). In addition, now that the various lines are out, WW can focus on making WoD 2.0 a fully unified setting, much like Exalted. Instead of tacking on critters as the ideas expand, they can now ensure that the new WoD that emerges combines the various supernaturals in a way that doesn't stretch credulity.

As for the Death and Rebirth of Aeon, I suspect this is more a case of several developers, with a soft spot for the Aeonverse, attempting to come to it's rescue. People like Bruce Baugh have invested considerable effort into making the Aeonverse work for players, and again, building an Aeonverse Revised edition (even if in d20 format) allows WW to create a more unified universe, devoid of all the various gaffes and issues that plagued the Aberrant and Trinity lines.

In short, I see a definite sense of direction for WW, if a sudden change in methodology. What I'm seeing, looking at the whole, is a new emphasis on taking a game world, and making it work properly. White Wolf has learned many valuable lessons in game planning from Exalted, and naturally it is keen to apply those lessons to it's other lines. In addition, WW is more than it's three Storyteller lines. WW publish many d20 games as well, such as Gamma World, Warcraft and Ravenloft, and these games seem to be more quiet-achievers in WW's repetoire. Yet they do tend to be quite mildly successful.

Which should point out to doubters that Aeon d20 may very well resurrect the line, or at the very least introduce a whole new group of players into our little playground that we've happily been playing around in for 6-8 years.

[Longboard]

I like exalted its cool. I like it because its the gumbo of RPGs theres somehing in it for everyone.

ALso, I have been playing a nova in an alternate universe fopr a minute or two. thats the badass thing about white wolf. you can intermix any of the games, and play a charatcer. for instance our group consists of a gangrel, a nova, a water aspect Dragon-blooded, and two solars.

youre GM has to be able to play in the different relationships.

Also , I played a game once where someone kept saying, something like "thats not possible, you can t do that." HELLO???? were talking abut charcters who fly and shoot fireballs out their cornholes. its like imagination gets smoe people only so far, and cant get them the rest of the way. were talking superfuture, and nano technology

[target]

hey kirby, I love the fact that you thought enough about this to type that MUCH, but I can't read that and keep my brain in the same skull!!

LOL

NEway, on a side note, when exalted first came out, the connection was prominent, but since then it has been severed. the great thing is, a good GM can do whatever he sees fit with the world. My Gm wanted to run a LONG game moving from exalted to WoD to abberrant to trinity!!!

CRAZY CRAZY

well, I think that WW doesn't make connections so you all, PC's and GM's, can make your own connections and other stuff and thingies!!

whatever you say, WW does have a good mass of ideas, and all in all they are a good company. *wink wink*

ps. I need a job LOL

[Sakurako Hino]

The whole thing between me and WW is this.

I expect honesty from a company I have put my money into through buying it's product.

I know they don't want to reveal everything untill the proper time, but don't throw out kernals of information that are false. They just chip away at a company's image as a trustable, reliable, and honest business. If I was running WW, I'd tell my writers and what not, to zip thier lips untill the proper time. That way, if there's a change, there isn't a backlash from players who had (foolishly) banked on a certain thing happening in the game line.

They have alot to learn.

[Essex]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
If I was running WW, I'd tell my writers and what not, to zip thier lips untill the proper time.

Life, and people, don't always work this way Sakura. Sure, you as the boss lay this down and then you find out information has been leaked 5 days later. Who do you blame? Even if you did know who leaked the info, how do you prove it?

Most information breaches like this happen through a game of telephone. Employee A tells a spouce or close friend believing that person will keep their confidence, and then that person ends up telling someone else thinking the same thing. Eventually someone is going to reveal it in a public forum, usually over the internet.

So what, exactly, would you do as head of white wolf to stop the rumor mongering?

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
The whole thing between me and WW is this.

I expect honesty from a company I have put my money into through buying it's product.

I know they don't want to reveal everything untill the proper time, but don't throw out kernals of information that are false. They just chip away at a company's image as a trustable, reliable, and honest business. If I was running WW, I'd tell my writers and what not, to zip thier lips untill the proper time. That way, if there's a change, there isn't a backlash from players who had (foolishly) banked on a certain thing happening in the game line.

Can you give me concrete examples of these falsehoods? There are only a few that I could consider definite falsehoods (as opposed to information updates): The schedule for the Technocracy splatbooks that got terminated with the Apocalypse (which could also be considered information updates), and... Actually, I can't think of much else. Everything else has gone something like this:

1. White Wolf begins game line
2. White Wolf finds that game line is not selling as well as they'd like, so slow down splat-book production, possibly sending the line to Arthaus.
3. White Wolf realises that even under the Arthaus line, the line is losing money at a rate that WW's coffers cannot sustain, and so begins efforts to completely curtail supplement production (known as "permanent hiatus").
4. At this point, White Wolf refuses to let the game officially die, and keeps it around for a while, hoping that something might come up to allow them to use the material in a way that doesn't entirely destroy WW's coffers.
5. White Wolf finally gives up hope and officially kills the line.

Now, to me, this looks like a fairly straightforward downward spiral. Unfortunate, yes, but perfectly straightforward. At each stage, the players have a fairly obvious idea of the health of the game line.

It's not that White Wolf is lieing about the game line - at the Arthaus stage, it's probably fair to assume that White Wolf expects the line to at least survive in the Arthaus imprint. Once it became clear that that wasn't going to be the case, the "permanent hiatus" is a perfectly valid indicator of what White Wolf is expecting for the line - They can't see themselves advancing the line in the near-future, but they'd like to keep their long-term options open. They might be able to do something with what they have later (and, BTW, in the case of Wraith and Changeling, they did - the Time of Judgement book is effectively the final book in those two's lines, therefore bringing out some new material.

In Aeon's case, White Wolf managed something pretty spectacular - they figured out a way to try and resurrect the line, in a way that might return enough money to make it worthwhile. Again, in this case, at no part in the process did they lie - circumnstances prompted White Wolf to update the health of their Aeonverse lines.

Seriously, I'm having some difficulty figuring out what you're saying when you say that WW is misleading people. Well apart from Essex's valid point, I find it difficult to find any real examples of WW doing an entire flip-flop on anything. Even in Exalted's case, The confusion of it's connection to the WoD is far more likely an example of fans reacting to WW's decision to keep the ties ambiguous, and a few fairly predictable slips of the tongue from various developers, of which, of course, it is not their responsibility to keep informed as to other lines!

[Jager]

In the past, ask two different developers at WW the same thing, and you get two different answers. I dont' think they know what they are doing, half the time.

I don't see it as obvious falsehoods. I see it as editorial incompetance on their behalf.

[Kirby1024]

And really, why should people expect them to? Is it really smart to ask the Vampire developer what's happening in Mage, or Werewolf? I don't think it is, and it's not their job to answer such things. They can feel perfectly fine talking about how a game relates to their line, but then that's their opinion. The WoD was never a truly unified universe - each book contradicted the others quite heavily, due to the fact that each book was supposed to be emphasising a different supernatural, and a different mood. They were, in a way, linked if you wanted it to be, but separate if you felt the other supernaturals weren't worth it.

Yes, perhaps the WW developers should have been given instructions as to exactly how they were to answer stuff, but I'm not sure if that would have helped, really. Fans ask and take the answers to heart, even if the person isn't really an authority on the situation...