Underworld vrs White Wolf?

[Sphere]

Anyone heard anything about a rumour that White Wolf are going to sue the writers of the Vamps vrs Weres film "Underworld". A friend mentioned they were sicking the lawyers on the film-makers saying they'd ripped off a White Wolf storyline?

Wasn't a great film, but I didn't anything that could be considered to have been stolen from the big Wolf.

Enquiring minds want to know.

[Matt]

Here are the 2 press releases from WW, Initial Press Release & Injuction Press Release .

[Sphere]

All is revealed. Cheers Chosen.

[Hugin]

So, how many people who know Vampire:The Whining have actually seen this flick?

Just curious as to how close it is to WW's stuff.

[Ashnod]

Eh...

It has similarities, most noteably the fact that a vampire/werewolf would be considered and CALLED an Abomination.

Other than that, it kind of ends there with the exception of the "Gothic Punk" atmosphere.

There's also the idea that vampires and werewolves were spawned from the same progenitor's children, which if you are up on your Vampire lore in WW, can be referenced to the whole Caine begat Enoch, who begat Ennoia, whose mortal children were the Romany and the Garou (werewolves), and whose vampiric children were the Gangrel.

There isn't MUCH of a connection, but it can be drawn.

In my opinion, anyway.

Really, it's the look and feel of the movie playing out like someone's WoD game that struck me. Ergo, made no sense, didn't stick the the rules it had established for itself, and basically had ST intervention whenever something NEEDED to happen that seemed impossible.

[Miss Baby]

The biggest thing they have is a story, the main werewolves past is linked to said story, and basically are one and the same.

[Kane Knight]

Strike 1) White Wolf claimed the script was ripped off of one of their stories.

--Reality: I've seen nothing to convince me that Underworld HAD a script. Or a plot. Or continuity.

Strike 2) White Wolf contends 60 points of similarity.

--Reality: I think this includes things like "Vampires exist," "Vampires have pointy teeth" and "Vampires have a bad reaction to sunlight."

I don't know. As previously noted, the primary thing is that they hybrids are called "abominations."

Strike 3) I didn't see anything in the trailers that made me think "sitting in the dark crying."

--Reality: That's just not White Wolf.

I haven't read this story. I would like to think they didn't write something as overall weak as the plot for Underworld. I think it's pretty ridiculous to claim market confusion. I also think it's pretty asinine of such a derivative body of work complaining about copyright infringement.

However, if White wolf wants to throw around money playing Puffy Daddy ("we invented vampires and a dark atmosphere"), who am I to complain?

Hell, their lawsuit got me curious about the movie, which is the only reason I went to see it.

[Speed]

Huh. I didn't know about this lawsuit until this very minute (Thanks for the PR links, Chosen), but I remember thinking when I saw Underworld, "White Wolf is gonna sue sombody". I thought I was making an internal joke, but apparently not.

By the by...I thought very much the same thing when I saw the movie "Supernova" about a week after I bought my Aeon rules.

[Kane Knight]

I'd be more worried about Marvel suing, since their character "Nova" predates White Wolf's Aberrant. I'm nor sure if Market Confusion is quite merited here, but I think the link's closer than that of Underworld vs WoD.

[Speed]

ummm...what? I'm not talking about the use of a word, I'm talking about the idea of genetically altered humans gaining powers beyond that of mortal man and becoming the bane of space-travelling humans existance. The very concept of both Aeon and "Supernova"...although the title is that of Aberrant's fictional Spielberg movie as well.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Speed:
ummm...what? I'm not talking about the use of a word, I'm talking about the idea of genetically altered humans gaining powers beyond that of mortal man and becoming the bane of space-travelling humans existance. The very concept of both Aeon and "Supernova"...although the title is that of Aberrant's fictional Spielberg movie as well.

Actually, can't say I've heard of that one.

[Speed]

Again....what? You haven't heard of which one? The movie "Supernova"? The idea to which I refer? Aberrant's fictional Spielberg movie? No matter, suffice it to say that we are probably better off not discussing this one, because I think we are looking at it from two very different angles. (Always assuming we are even talking about the same things, which I am not entirely sure of)

In conclusion, Aberrant's use of the word "Nova" in no way infringes of Marvel's use of the same word unless it refers to a cosmic do-gooder with a star on the forhead of his helmet (I'm guessing)...you cannot really say the same for "Underworld", which follows WOD canon pretty precisely on most (not all) points. I haven't read this short story that the movie supposedly ripped off, but it wouldn't surprise me overly much to find that it did exactly that.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Speed: ..."Underworld"... follows WOD canon pretty precisely on most (not all) points.

I saw underworld recently and I thought WW's case pretty iffy.

If you assume that both Vampires and Werewolves exist (house of Frankenstine?) then it isn't a big step to say that they are both organized and they hate/war each other. It also isn't a big step to make it a dark world since the Vamps only come out at night.

Being organized is kind of a must have if you have to explain why none of the baselines know what is going on... which in turn is a good thing because we can put it in the "real" world and explain what is going on to the viewer.

Obviously, the movie and WW both copy a lot from a third source (myth). But after you toss out that I don't see a lot in common.

Vampires aren't mentalists in the movie. They don't have different clans contesting for power that I saw. The Vamps and the Wolves were pretty evenly matched in combat without technology. I saw no evidence of human slaves or blood bonds. Wolves being immortal is a bit new, as are creating Vamp/Wolf hybreds.

Contrary to what White Wolf might want to think, Vampires and Werewolves are part of popular culture, have been for a long time, and can't be copyrighted.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Vampires aren't mentalists in the movie. They don't have different clans contesting for power that I saw. The Vamps and the Wolves were pretty evenly matched in combat without technology. I saw no evidence of human slaves or blood bonds. Wolves being immortal is a bit new, as are creating Vamp/Wolf hybreds.

Not to nitpick, but there are vamp/wolf hybrids in the old WoD: Abominations. They're also know as "Twinks' Wet Dream" and "The Endless Migraine for Storytellers and Narrators." The only other thing in WoD that was that wrong were Risen (aka - let's allow PCs to play the Crow). *shudder*

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Speed:
Again....what? You haven't heard of which one? The movie "Supernova"? The idea to which I refer? Aberrant's fictional Spielberg movie? No matter, suffice it to say that we are probably better off not discussing this one, because I think we are looking at it from two very different angles. (Always assuming we are even talking about the same things, which I am not entirely sure of)

In conclusion, Aberrant's use of the word "Nova" in no way infringes of Marvel's use of the same word unless it refers to a cosmic do-gooder with a star on the forhead of his helmet (I'm guessing)...you cannot really say the same for "Underworld", which follows WOD canon pretty precisely on most (not all) points. I haven't read this short story that the movie supposedly ripped off, but it wouldn't surprise me overly much to find that it did exactly that.

Calm down.

Take your ritalin.

Now, it would be pretty obvious that I wasn't referring to Aberrant. It doesn't take much effort or research to figure that one out.

I found multiple listings on IMDB for movies named "Supernova." The one I was familliar with has absolutely nothing to do with the concept you mentioned (at least as far as the numerous bits I had read on it went). It's quite likely I was thinking of a different movie with the same title.

Now, breathe.

In conclusion, superhumans called Novas are grounds for market confusion. Seeing as how Nova was not the only one of them in Marvel comics, seeing as how his abilities resemble one of the core characters, seeing as how the comic influenced format of a lot of the material in Abbie was a dead giveaway.

Still breathing deeply? Good.

Cannon White Wolf dictate a lot of things which come from pop culture and folklore. If the rivalry between Vampires and Werewolves is grounds for a lawsuit, then so is the one illustrated in "The Real Ghostbusters," a cartoon series that goes wayyy back. Same with the concept of an abomination. It's been a cheese B or C movie concept since there's been cheesey people coming up with cheesey ideas.

Most of the similarities I can come up with date back further than White Wolf. Hieraarchal vampires? Vampire elders? Not new concepts. Fighting between two supernatural groups? Not new concepts.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Maybe I should look at it from the perspective of White Wolf's Vamps and Dogs.

Let's see...Vampires and Werewolves have semi-unique, mystical or supernatural gifts/abilities, which Underworld does to a tee...No, wait, the majority of the vampires/werewolves have stock powers of their kind's stereotypes. Scratch that.

but WoD vampires communicate with their sires through blood...No, wait, they don't.

But you can hurt a vampire with a bullet of "liquid daylight..." No, wait...

But there are thirteen clans and thirteen elder vampires...Oh.

But there ARE three elder vampires, and as three is an uncommon number, this CLEARLY rips off Vampire's second gen...Well, except...

No, I see where I'm approaching this all wrong. I'm going at it from the perspective of NOT seeing it follow cannon.

Perhaps you could enlighten us with great detail as to which parts of the movie followed which parts of cannon. Now, be specific.

[Alex Craft]

It bears reminding that the suit was/is not based entirely (or even mostly) on correspondences between Underworld and the World of Darkness.' Apparently, Underworld closely follows the concepts and plot of Nancy Collins' For Love of Monsters, which was published by WW and set in the WOD.

I have not read this short story, so I cannot say how valid the suit may be.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex Craft:
It bears reminding that the suit was/is not based entirely (or even mostly) on correspondences between Underworld and the World of Darkness.' Apparently, Underworld closely follows the concepts and plot of Nancy Collins' For Love of Monsters, which was published by WW and set in the WOD.

I have not read this short story, so I cannot say how valid the suit may be.

From the above mentioned White Wolf Press Releases...

Quote:

White Wolf alleges that Underworld characters, theme and setting are based on White Wolf’s award winning games Vampire: The Masquerade® and Werewolf: The Apocalypse™, both set in White Wolf’s fictional World of Darkness®.

Right here we have, in Whote Wolf's own words...

Quote:

Further, Collins alleges that Underworld’s script is based on her 1994 story Love of Monsters, published by White Wolf and also set in the World of Darkness.

Yes, she makes such allegations, but the next part makes me wonder...

Quote:

Plaintiffs claim over 60 points of unique similarity between Underworld and their work. "Ours is a huge fictional world, supported by over 200 volumes of fictional material," asserts Mike Tinney, White Wolf’s President. "It’s infuriating to see Underworld’s script riddled with our property."

200 volumes? Of "Love of Monsters?" Probably not, as short stories tend not to have "volumes." or "World of Darkness?" If the suit was primarily over the former, why would 200 volumes of the latter even be relevent?

These are statements from White Wolf's own press release. If indeed the suit is primarily based upon this one short story, they did a DAMN good job of muddying the waters.

[Speed]

You win.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Speed:
You win.

I'm legitimately curious--What was, cannonically, so close about Underworld in terms of World of Darkness?

Quote:

you cannot really say the same for "Underworld", which follows WOD canon pretty precisely on most (not all) points.

Please.

Be specific.

[Speed]

No. Your attitude is not that of someone seeking knowledge about a subject, but that of a combatant looking for a punching bag. I won't cater to your need. By the by, a cannon is a big gun. The word you are looking for is canon.

[Kane Knight]

Wow. Picking on the spelling of a dyslexic in the same breath as you chastise someone for their attitude. Not only did you dodge having to explain something (which I'm guessing had no foundation, hence you pulling your little temper tantrum), but you "struck back" at someone "looking for a punching bag."

I guess you feel really big now.

And you've dodged explaining yourself on underworld. Two birds for one stone. All you missed was violating Godwin's Law and calling me a loser for using the internet, and you could have had a perfect streak going.

Now, when you're ready to take your ritalin, and play with the grown ups again, do feel free to explain yourself.

Or you can hold on to your little puff of moral righteuousness and hold your breath until your face turns blue. As I'm guessing your argument was crap to begin with, I doubt I'm losing anything by you not explaining yourself...

[Kane Knight]

And to briefly point out the flaw in your logic here...

If I was just looking for a punching bag, you pulling that line would definitely count as a "KO." This would seem counterproductive to your reasoning, as all you have accomplished would be confirming that "I win."

If I was looking to see what you were talking about, then you have successfully failed to have offered anything useful to back up your point, a communication failure in direct violation of the concept of bringing it up in the first place.

I doubt this will, in any way, change your mind, but it seems pointless to go on a "I'm not going to dignify you with a response" fit, since at best, you're feeding the very thing you claim to not be dignifying, and at worst, you're failing to back up your own argument due to some ego issue.

Mmmmm...Run-on sentence....

Mmmm...Responding to tell someone you're not responding....

Mmmmmmmm...Armchair psych....

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...forbidden donut...

[Hugin]

Kane, perhaps you simply come across not as someone looking to engage in a discussion but rather as someone looking to argue?

[ronin]

[Speed]

Kane, no offense, but do you read what you are writing? You have gone out of your way to be offensive to me for no discernable reason. Take my ritalin? What is that? Am I supposed to be some hyperactive ADD kid? What about my posts on this topic have led you to this conclusion? I am a 32 year old husband and father, with a job and a health care plan; the whole nine yards.

Now, you have set yourself up as the arbiter of my opinion, as though I must justify how I felt about the movie to you. I won't play that game. If that is what you want from a "discussion", feel free to go on without me. I have posted to explain why I am not going to continue, and that is apparantly not enough.

Sorry about your dyslexia, but I left my psychic hat in my other apartment(i.e. How am I supposed to know about your problems, you seem to spell most everything else ok). Also, if I DID have ADD I think that I might be offended by YOUR comments. I don't, so it's no big deal, but if you expect grown-up discussion from me (or others, I'm sure), then you are going about it in what I feel is the wrong way.

Also, there were no run-on sentances in my post. LOL.

Now, I am well and truly done with this. My final word on it is that (as I said originally) it seemed TO ME as I watched 'Underworld' (without a pad and pen to take down specific examples) that it was based heavily on WOD canon on most, though not all, points. Much like the movie 'Supernova' reminded me a lot of Aeon. My opinion matters little to most people, and not at all to some. Take from this whatever you will.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Much like the movie 'Supernova' reminded me a lot of Aeon.

I got that too. Didn't the bad guy seem to have one mega in all abilities?