43 replies to this topic

[johntfs]

Mere Mortal -5 Flaw.

A Nova with this flaw is restricted to normal human attributes and may not purchase Mega-Attributes at any level.  The Nova may still purchase Quantum Powers.  Beginning Nova points may still be used to purchase skills, backgrounds, willpower and the like.  Anything except Mega-Attributes is allowed.

At the GM's discretion, a player may purchase Enhancements separately as though they were Level 2 power.  In this case, the level of the Enhancement may not exceed the level of the attribute on which it is based.  So, a Nova with Int 2 who wished to purchase Taint Resistence (A Mega-Int Enhancement) could purchase no more than two dots without raising his Intelligence.  It is suggested that the GM have those Enhancement that provide autosuccesses (like Seductive Looks, etc) provide one autosuccess per level purchased up to the limit of normal Enhancement.

[SalmonMax]

I don't usually weigh in on things outside the games, but...I can't stay quiet this time.

--

In my experience, awarding bonus points for "You can't buy (STUFF)" is a bad idea. Basically, a player who never had any intention of buying whatever it is can pick up some free points! SCORE!

Point based systems like BESM and GURPS have this come up sometimes...usually with house rules or original material, because the designers intentionally stayed away from making "You can't do (STUFF)" a point bonanza. GURPS gives you like...a point for it and calls it a quirk. This is just good design.

Getting back to the flaw at hand...

5 freebs in exchange for not getting to take Mega-Atts? Hmm! And I can still buy Enhancements?! HMMM!

Now, I know mega-atts are very popular...giving a lot of 'bang for buck' for nova points...but not every concept calls for them. Lets face it, anyone making a character who wants mega atts will immediately disregard this Flaw. It outlaws what they want...why would they take it?

The only player who would look at it is the player who doesn't want Mega-atts to start with. For him it's not a flaw either. It's -free points-. He wasn't going to get mega atts anyway...why not get some points for it?

Thus, either way, it's not really a flaw. No flaw, no points.

That's my take on it at least.

[Evan-Happy Scientist]

I'm of the same mind as Lily on this, especially since you can still buy enhancements (at 6xp each).  While this might be a long term bad idea, how often in a game is this going to be the case?  When is this Flaw really going to come into play?  If you get it, you were never planning to buy Mega-Atts anyway.

It just leaves you more points to pump into powers is all, and in the length of most games, that's just not worth the same points as Total Amnesia, or a More Powerful Enemy that wants you Dead.

Maybe if your Chronicle runs for five years ...

[Courier]

A 5 point flaw should bite pretty hard.  Still allowing powers and even enhancements doesn't.

IMHO if you're going to be mortal, then be MORTAL.  You can't buy anything with nova points that a baseline can't have.  So No powers, no enhancements, no megas, no Quantum, etc.  You could still buy Dorm or Node with your normal background points or those enhancement-ish merits with bonus points.

With this you'd still end up like Lily said, but the character concept has so many limitations it's worth a limitation.

[johntfs]

So, how would you guys work Eufiber Rejection?  This 2 point flaw disallows the Nova from purchasing the Eufiber background.  By your logic, the player should receive no points for this flaw because "he wasn't planning to get Eufiber so it isn't a disadvantage."  It's a circular reasoning.  The player gets the points because he has closed off a commonly available option to his character.  

[Mike OOC]

Just because it's in the books doesn't make it a good idea or one we happen to agree with.  I personally smell the whiff of cheese in the air when Eufiber Rejection shows up on a character sheet.

[SalmonMax]

It's not circular reasoning. It's many years of gaming experience.

As a player, when I'm looking at disads...wanting to scrape up points...one of the first things I do is, "Hmm...well, I'm not gonna take any cybernetics...can I get points for that?"

It doesn't make me bad, or evil...it's just part of the optimization process. A poor game design (and poor game master) will say "Yes! Have free points!"

Good ones will say, "Uh. Is that really limiting you? Looks to me like anything you'd get from cybernetics, you're already getting from something else."

So in answer to your question about how I'd work Eufiber Rejection...I would smile and say, "What Eufiber Rejection?"

[johntfs]

Well, then, you may as well remove all Flaws from the game, because all of them close down and limit options for characters that take them.  A Short character has chosen to limit his foot speed (along with less tangible character aspects).  An Intolerant character has limited his free will with respect to a specific type of person.  A Shy person has limited his Social aspects.  And a Nova with Mere Mortal has greatly limited his ability to express his Quantum heritage.

However, I accept the critique about purchasing Enhancements.  So, the modified Mere Mortal is a -5 Flaw that prevents a Nova from possessing either natural Mega-Attributes or Enhancements to those Attributes.  Novas with certain abilities like Boost can still potentially obtain Mega-Attributes for the temporary duration of their powers.

[Dave ST]

Originally Posted By: johntfs

However, I accept the critique about purchasing Enhancements.  So, the modified Mere Mortal is a -5 Flaw that prevents a Nova from possessing either natural Mega-Attributes or Enhancements to those Attributes.  Novas with certain abilities like Boost can still potentially obtain Mega-Attributes for the temporary duration of their powers.

That sounds more reasonable.  Certainly worth 5 bonus points.  It's still abusable, but what isn't?

[SalmonMax]

Well, then, you may as well remove all Flaws from the game, because all of them close down and limit options for characters that take them. A Short character has chosen to limit his foot speed (along with less tangible character aspects). An Intolerant character has limited his free will with respect to a specific type of person. A Shy person has limited his Social aspects. And a Nova with Mere Mortal has greatly limited his ability to express his Quantum heritage.

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This strikes me as verging into the realm of the silly.

Bottom line: You asked for opinions, I gave mine. You're welcome to disagree. Ultimately, the litmus test should always be, 'Does this make the game more fun for everyone?' If yes, go ahead and include it. And of course, there's no harm in trying something out and seeing how it goes...as long as everyone understands it's in 'test mode,' and may be revoked if circumstances call for it.

With the above in mind, I encourage you to run a few games using the flaw. Even with the no enhancements clause it's a fairly sweet deal, for certain concepts. I'm sure you'll have takers.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: johntfs

So, how would you guys work Eufiber Rejection?  This 2 point flaw disallows the Nova from purchasing the Eufiber background.  By your logic, the player should receive no points for this flaw because "he wasn't planning to get Eufiber so it isn't a disadvantage."  It's a circular reasoning.  The player gets the points because he has closed off a commonly available option to his character.  

Eufiber Rejection doesn't just prevent someone from buying the Eufiber background, it also prevents them from using Eufiber.  Eufiber is one of the fundamental building blocks of 21st century abby technology.  The rough equiv for us would be "can't touch or be around plastic".

Op-net terminals die after at most an hour.  Personally I'd say they just don't function.  Any time the ST feels like being inventive he can make life difficult for you.  Examples, you're at a party and your host's very expensive clothes fall off because you're near, or your partner's computer gadgets stop working.  

And having said all that, this is a tough flaw for many ST's to manage and they should feel free to veto it.

[Mr Fox]

Personally, I hate the whole merits and flaws deal.  It is too often abused and few ST's I've ever gamed with consistently include the flaws in their stories thus effectively making the flaws free points.  That's not to say that all ST's don't use them, just many of the ones I've gamed with.  In Abberant games as a player, I simply never use them personally anymore.  As an ST, if a player asks to use them I agree on a case by case basis, but I'd prefer that players just roleplay these things and leave the merits and flaws out of it.

[Priest]

To me, it's a matter of how badly does this really effect the character and how often will the ST bring it up.

As an ST, I would use Eufiber Rejection as a viable flaw if you were in a Team Tomorrow, or High Combat game.  Places were normal clothes get hosed on a regular basis and having eufiber is a definite, if somewhat cosmetic, advantage.  I wouldn't allow its use in a Down and Dirty street level game were eufiber isn't even common.

What I look at when I see the Mere Mortal flaw is how often will it come up in the game?  Is having a Mega-Attribute really going to be something that seperates this one PC from other people?  Is it going to matter at all?  Does the PC feel the pinch of a 5-point flaw?  Does the ST get to use it in a story?

I don't see this happening with this flaw.  Sure, the long term merits of the flaw are there.  You can't use Mega-Attributes to buff your power and skill rolls.  You don't have access enchancements.  I just don't feel the game effect is worth the five points.

[johntfs]

Originally Posted By: Dave ST

That sounds more reasonable.  Certainly worth 5 bonus points.  It's still abusable, but what isn't?

I look at cost vs. benefit from the Flaw.  As a benefit, the character gets 5 bonus points.  He can buy two dots of skills and one of background or similar configuration of something anyone can have.

AS a cost, the character generally won't have access to the Mega-dice that allow Novas to get those really high die rolls when using their powers.  He won't have the super-fast reaction time of many Novas.  And he won't have the huge number of health level.  If the character mixes it up with other Novas, he has to be extremely careful and prepared lest he and his 7 health levels get swatted like a fly.

[Priest]

Johntfs, it boils back down to the belief that a character who buys this flaw wasn't planning to buy any Mega-Attributes anyway.  Yes, this ties back into the Eufiber Rejection vs eufiber flaw.  

Put it this way, I compare this flaw to the 5pt Enemy Flaw.  How does it stack up?  Is it equal to having a more powerful nova wanting you dead?  I don't think so.
  
Will it have the same game effect?
In the short and medium term, not in my opinion.  Now, if I was planning on a long term Chronicle that would cover a decade, or two, I could revise my opinion.  In that long a term (and high experience point gain) game it would come into play and the social effects of the flaw would equal the cost.  I'd allow it.

In a game that was very thematic (powers and Megas limited and tied to a theme), I would probably allow it, as the range of powers that can be bought are limited.  The Flaw has an immediate game effect and I'd allow it.

In too many games, things aren't limited for PC, so they can buy any power.  In too many games, this just doesn't happen, thus the flaw has a very minor effect.

In the end, it falls to the ST to accept or deny flaws.  If you can get some ST to accept this, more power to ya.  In general I wouldn't.  I hope I've made my reasons clear.

[johntfs]

Originally Posted By: Priest

Johntfs, it boils back down to the belief that a character who buys this flaw wasn't planning to buy any Mega-Attributes anyway.  Yes, this ties back into the Eufiber Rejection vs eufiber flaw.  

Put it this way, I compare this flaw to the 5pt Enemy Flaw.  How does it stack up?  Is it equal to having a more powerful nova wanting you dead?  I don't think so.
  
Will it have the same game effect?
In the short and medium term, not in my opinion.  Now, if I was planning on a long term Chronicle that would cover a decade, or two, I could revise my opinion.  In that long a term (and high experience point gain) game it would come into play and the social effects of the flaw would equal the cost.  I'd allow it.

In a game that was very thematic (powers and Megas limited and tied to a theme), I would probably allow it, as the range of powers that can be bought are limited.  The Flaw has an immediate game effect and I'd allow it.

In too many games, things aren't limited for PC, so they can buy any power.  In too many games, this just doesn't happen, thus the flaw has a very minor effect.

In the end, it falls to the ST to accept or deny flaws.  If you can get some ST to accept this, more power to ya.  In general I wouldn't.  I hope I've made my reasons clear.

I understand your reason perfectly well.  I offered the Flaw for GMs who wish to include it.  Obviously, those who don't want it won't take it.

For my part, I compare it with the 5 point flaw Uneducated, which increases the cost of skills that fall under the Intelligence attribute.  Granted that the risk of death isn't as great with Uneducated as it is with a 5 point enemy.  On the other hand, Uneducated is a constant flaw whereas the Enemy appears less frequently, perhaps once every two or three adventures to avoid becoming tiresome.

[Dave ST]

Originally Posted By: johntfs

AS a cost, the character generally won't have access to the Mega-dice that allow Novas to get those really high die rolls when using their powers.

True.  However when it comes to damaging powers any nova may only carry over 5 successes.  Mega-Attributes aonly provide a quicker means of assuring you get those 5 successes.  In my opinion, the real weakness of denying Mega-Atts is the inability for the character to reduce the difficulties of actions.

Quote:

He won't have the super-fast reaction time of many Novas.

It would take longer, but it's possible for a no Mega-Att nova to be just as quick as the speedsters.  Initiative can be purchased.

Quote:

And he won't have the huge number of health level.  If the character mixes it up with other Novas, he has to be extremely careful and prepared lest he and his 7 health levels get swatted like a fly.

You lost me here.  Apparently you and I smoke a different brand.  Health Levels are a quantum power (Body Modification, Level 1).  A quantum power that your description stated the character may still purchase, along with all the Armor and Invulnerability they see fit.

Where did you get this figure from?

[SkyLion]

Sure!  Of course I will pitch my $0.02 in!

Im somewhere in the middle on this one.  As a long time white wolf player I feel that many of the opposing faction here are missing the point.  Flaws are NOT there to weaken the character.  They are also NOT there to give freebie points.  Flaws and Merits exist to add a bit of extra flavor to the game...as it said in my old 1st edition WoD books.  

Think of them as quirks.  And since I usually use flaw points to buy merits it equlas out.  For those of you who are inclined to dissalow them in your game, that is your right and I can even see how some munchkin or another would spoil it for you.  But a good player with valid reasons deserves to have a little leeway.

Also people seem to gripe about the Flaws but the flip side is merits.  Merits are AWESOME!  They are like littel quirky abilities that arent quite powers but are still useful and (again as per my first point) help to differentiate the players from each other more substantially.

Im inclined to agree with JohnT here...sure the player wasn't planning on buying them...but that goes for any limiting flaw..where it really hurts is in the xp area.  Maybe youre fine not having any now, but after a year of game time when all your peers are at Mega Atts 3-5 and you've only got your powers...

Well lets just say it doesnt matter how mack your q-bolt is if the mega dex and staminars are dodging and soaking it all. In other words with two characters with otherwie equal powers, the one with the mega atts is going to win.  This goes double for direct att to att contests.  And in Abby where Mega Attributes ARE powers in their own right, not having access actually IS a Flaw.  IMHO

Persoanlly i would compromise and call it a 3 point flaw.

[johntfs]

Originally Posted By: Dave ST

Originally Posted By: johntfs

AS a cost, the character generally won't have access to the Mega-dice that allow Novas to get those really high die rolls when using their powers.

True.  However when it comes to damaging powers any nova may only carry over 5 successes.  Mega-Attributes aonly provide a quicker means of assuring you get those 5 successes.  In my opinion, the real weakness of denying Mega-Atts is the inability for the character to reduce the difficulties of actions.

Quote:

  [quote]He won't have the super-fast reaction time of many Novas.

It would take longer, but it's possible for a no Mega-Att nova to be just as quick as the speedsters.  Initiative can be purchased.

Exactly.  It takes longer and it's quite a bit more expensive, if longer-lasting.  Take two characters, one with MegaWits, one without, both with an Initiative of 5.  MegaWits guy can buy Enhanced Initiative for 5 xp and get a 10 Initiative for 1 QP spent for a turn.  To equal that, the nonMegaWits guy has to spend 35 XP 5(for 6 Init) + 6(for 7 Init + 7(for 8) + 8(for 9) + 9 (for 10).

Quote:

And he won't have the huge number of health level.  If the character mixes it up with other Novas, he has to be extremely careful and prepared lest he and his 7 health levels get swatted like a fly.

Quote:

You lost me here.  Apparently you and I smoke a different brand.  Health Levels are a quantum power (Body Modification, Level 1).  A quantum power that your description stated the character may still purchase, along with all the Armor and Invulnerability they see fit.

Where did you get this figure from?

I got it by forgetting about Body Modification and thinking only about Mega-Stamina (which will give up to three free Bruised Health levels).  In that case, I modify the Flaw to also disallow Body Modification and any permanent, non-activated powers.  So, a character with Mere Mortal can possess Armor, Invulnerability and similar power, but those power must have their Durations reduced to at least Maintainence.  Meanwhile, Body Modification is disallowed just like Mega-Attributes and Enhancements.

The point of Mere Mortal is to facilitate the concept of a character who is essentially a "normal human" with access to superpowers.

[jameson (ST)]

This is tough one IMO.  On the one hand I think this Flaw has a lot of merit (pun intended) as much as any other flaw in allowing you to customized your character.  The argument that you might just take this even if you weren't planning to take mega attributes is just Bunk.  Clearly if you take this you aren't going to be buying mega attributes, that's the whole damn point!

As for if it is worth 5 points.  Well, that's a tough call.  Five points buys a dot of Quantum, which means you can start of with a little more bounce in your step with your powers, or access higher powers a little more easily.  On the other hand if if does forbid you from ever taking, all Mega-atts (and enhancements), all Body Modification, and turns all "permanent" powers into Maintenance ones I could argue that the cost is validated.  If the character intends to be able to hold his own in combat he'll need to buy a soak power and pay 2-3 QPs per turn for it while in combat, add to that the cost of offensive powers (another 2-3 points per turn) and he'll be wiped out much faster than a "regular" Nova.

I'd say that at 5 points its fine with the understanding that you'll never have mega-atts, never have body modifications, and never have any powe that doesn't cost you Quantum to use.  The cost vs. gain benifit might even convince me to make this a 7 pt flaw.  Sure at character creation a well built character will make up for it but in combat they'll tire more easily, and over time they will lag far behind their companions.

[Priest]

With the addition of having no Permanent powers, I can see the cost of this merit being appropriate.

I am curious if there would also be a provision for keeping taint down?  Just game-wise, it seems that aberrating out would kind of defeat being a Mere Mortal.  Just my thought on the matter.

[jameson (ST)]

Perhaps being limited to metal aberrations and physical aberrations that would be within the range of human genetic and birth defects (i.e. albinos, withern appendages, cojoined twin remnants etc.)

I can see this being the realm of ST preference though

[Josh Brickman]

Mortals can't get every kind of taint, but they can get most or all of the mental ones.

[SkyLion]

Dr Bradford:  A couple corrections to your figures (Guess you aren't a Doctor of Mathematics!       )

5 Nova points will buy you a dot of Quantum.  On the other hand it takes 7 Bonus points to buy the same.

Also maintenance powers don't cost 2-3 Quantum Points per turn.  They cost 1-3 Quantum Points per [Duration] turns.  This is also an incentive to spend starting NPs to increase a mere mortals quantum pool..something I have rarely seen players purchase.

[Courier]

RE: Buying Q-pool with nova points.
Nova points can establish themes, experience usually can't.  If I have a spare one I'll always buy a level one power rather than increase my pool.  I've built two characters in the last two months where this has come up.

[jameson (ST)]

*shrug*  I think my crappy memory for the numbers does not diminish the point.  That while 5 points may seem initailly high a PC with this will burn more Quantum Pool than other PCs and in the long run their fellow PCs will outshine them by combining Mega-atts with their Q-powers where the "m-mortal" will be limited to his baseline atts.

FYI: I'm not a Doctor at all.  If I wasn't so lazy I'd change this account's handle away from Dr. Bradford, he was an old PC of mine ....

[johntfs]

Originally Posted By: Josh Brickman

Mortals can't get every kind of taint, but they can get most or all of the mental ones.

Actually, given the Transfer Aberrancy power of the Teragen, a mortal can get any kind of taint aberrant and it causes them damage when it occurs.

Originally Posted By: Priest

With the addition of having no Permanent powers, I can see the cost of this merit being appropriate.

I am curious if there would also be a provision for keeping taint down?  Just game-wise, it seems that aberrating out would kind of defeat being a Mere Mortal.  Just my thought on the matter.

Nope.  If anything, a Mere Mortal is probably more open to becoming tainted since he only has powers, which he might end up Maxing to keep up with Mega-Atted opponents.  

A player wishing to play up the "less-tainted" aspect would do well to apply his 5 points from Mere Mortal to the merit, Taint Resistance.

[Dave ST]

Quote:

A player wishing to play up the "less-tainted" aspect would do well to apply his 5 points from Mere Mortal to Taint Resistance.

How... I thought they couldn't buy enhancements?  

[Courier]

He means the merit.

[Dave ST]

I revamped it:

Mere Mortal: You're a Psion.  Buy Trinity.

However, I've read the entire thread again and some of you, seriously, need to look at things more objectively before jumping in and saying 'no'.  Especially when a few of the resoponses barely held the water of the arguement.

Let's look at a few things... this flaw denies you nine attributes and (now) the enhancements that go with them.  Now that's a pretty good handicap.  Most enhancements are more useful than q-powers anyway.

The flaw actually works if you think it over.  The Quantum powers thing, well, I'm not 100% sure about that since WTF is the point in playing a mere mortal with super powers.  Jonny Storm is a good example though.  No Mega-Atts, just bodymorph, flight and that's it.

It can be abused, sure.  But who in thier right mind can justify armor 5, invulnerability (physical) 5, invulnerability (mental) 5, invulnerabiltiy (energy) 5, and then with a few dots in telepathy and dominate pass that atrocity off as a telepath???

Oh... wait...

Anyway...

My point is WW has published worse merits and flaws than this one, and they get used.  It's not bad, and with a little work could be put to very good use within a game.