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Lakota independence?

Ptesan-Wi

By Ptesan-Wi,
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Warren Verona Mentor

Warren Verona

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I think it's cool as hell. If the Government has not honored treaties then the Lakota should quit the U.S. I think people should stand behind them 100% as long as they keep their eyes set on the Government and not 'white man' as a whole.

I really don't think that what's happened to the Native American people (and it's been a shitty hand) is the fault of any currently living generation.

I have a feeling a civil war might be the government's answer. A bullshit excuse like a casino was a front for al quaeda or something and they'll more or less use it as a reason to exterminate them to keep the land.

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Mr Fox Legendary

Mr Fox

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I hope they succeed. However, they will be land locked, and airlocked. No way to trade with other nations without going through US territory. The US can basically shut them off from the rest of the world and never have to shed blood. I really don't expect the US to use military force unless attacked by the Lakota, which I don't think will happen.

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Courier Legendary

Courier

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Considering we're talking about 5 states breaking off from the rest of the US, and that we've already fought a civil war on this issue, AND that the majority of the people in those 5 states aren't going to want to leave the US, I don't see how this is going anywhere.

I also think that regardless of what the law says, well, it's been too long and the people who think they own that land have put Trillions of economic development into those 5 states. Basically the people who made the investments should keep the land. That's pretty much the bedrock of any sane economic system, and if they've found a loophole then it will be scratched out by congress.

I really don't think that what's happened to the Native American people (and it's been a shitty hand) is the fault of any currently living generation.

Agreed.

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Seph OOC Community Regular

Seph OOC

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I actually came in tonight to post this. Ah, well.

Anyway, it's a strong gesture, but I think in the end it'll be a meaningless one. The government didn't keep up the treaties back then; what makes them think it will now?

Also, the whole thing is a bit of a joke. It isn't the Tribal Chiefs that issued this statement, but a "delegation of Lakota leaders" headed up by Russell Means, a guy whose stock is basically worthless amongst the Native peoples. It's akin to the Scientologists saying that Los Angeles county secedes.

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SkyLion Legendary

SkyLion

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I agree...it's all hype...it didn't work for the Montana Freemen and it wont work here. Regrdless of the Declaration of Independance and the efforts of our country's founders, we have become yet another fascist military state. In today's terms the Boston Tea Party would be put down so fast you couldn't blink an eye, and the label terrorist means you go away forever in quantico with no trial.

Having said that I really wish it did make a damn of a difference...We have been saying for years that California should secede and blaze a new trail unhindered by federal policy...I think there is a book out there about that that I need to read...

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Mr Fox Legendary

Mr Fox

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I think legally Texas is the only state that has a 'right' to secede if they chose. Of course, we've fought the Civil War since those documents were written and Texas wasn't exactly allowed to go it's own way then, so I doubt that we'd be allowed to now, even though it was in the original agreement with the US that we had the right to leave if we chose.

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SkyLion Legendary

SkyLion

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Theoretically, anyone who doesn't feel that their government has the right to rebel and start a new one...as per the Declaration of Independance it is even our *duty* to do as such. However, in practice the State "owns" us. For example it is also a fact that there is no law stating that we are required to pay income tax. Several people have fought the courts and won on this point and I know a few people who haven't payed taxes in years. On the other hand, in practice, one can be sent to jail for such an "offense." Just ask Al Capone...

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Priest Collaborator

Priest

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Let's remember the American Colonists didn't directly rebel against the English government. It was the Colonial governments that did. They claimed to do so in the name of those you govern.

So, if you personally rebel, don't expect the army to come after you. Expect the local law enforcement to lock you up like a lunatic instead.

I've heard of people challenging various state and federal taxes and winning, but not the Federal Income Tax. The Federal Income Tax is allowed by the Sixteenth Amendment. The Tax was imposed in 1913, and its perfectly legal.

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Priest Collaborator

Priest

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Well, I believe he got away with something illegal because he is a damn good lawyer who knows his way around. You and I can't get away with it because it is illegal. Just like you and I could never have gotten away with things Mobsters did because we can't afford to throw millions of dollars at the case.

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Courier Legendary

Courier

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Originally Posted By: *Overload*
For example it is also a fact that there is no law stating that we are required to pay income tax. Several people have fought the courts and won on this point...
I am not a lawyer but my impression is that this is more an urban legend than reality.

Originally Posted By: *Overload*
...and I know a few people who haven't payed taxes in years. On the other hand, in practice, one can be sent to jail for such an "offense." Just ask Al Capone...
In order; I suspect not legally. That point contradicts the first paragraph. Al had lots of problems only slightly related to taxes.
Originally Posted By: *Overload*
All Im saying is that he had to pull out some serious shit in court and had to work hard with all his insider knowledge as an attourney...
In our system, sometimes the guilty do manage to go free. That doesn't make them less guilty, just free. OJ comes to mind.

We tolerate this because it's better than the alternatives, i.e. letting the state decide who is guilty and who is not. That jail in Cuba is both an aberration and an exception, it is not the rule.
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Priest Collaborator

Priest

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A jury aquitted him and what the jury said was the the IRS had to supply upon request proof that the tax was valid. They failed to do so and 12 angry men and women stuck it to the IRS, who everyone hates.

To me, this is proof we live in a free countries were civil liberties are looked after, even to the detriment of certain laws. Works for me.

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Courier Legendary

Courier

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Originally Posted By: Priest
A jury aquitted him and what the jury said was the the IRS had to supply upon request proof that the tax was valid. They failed to do so and 12 angry men and women stuck it to the IRS, who everyone hates.
Ah, someone botched his Rapport roll.
Originally Posted By: Priest
To me, this is proof we live in a free countries were civil liberties are looked after, even to the detriment of certain laws. Works for me.
I've mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand I've no problem with him walking, one case and one guy is chickfeed or less than.

On the other hand similar jury actions let OJ free, and have made businesses afraid to face juries, not because they're guilty but because they're afraid they won't get justice or the law.
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SkyLion Legendary

SkyLion

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The main point is that the 16th ammendment DOES grant the power to levy income taxes...but no law has been put in the law books..only the tax code which is NOT the law.

The whole debocle could be solved if Congress just passed an actual law requiring income tax...however the fact that they have not done so AND were so dodgy with the jury (ies..there have been several people aquitted in this manner) says to me that something is off...

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Long Pig Johnny Apprentice

Long Pig Johnny

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Originally Posted By: *Overload*
...as per the Declaration of Independance it is even our *duty* to do as such...


Folks who refer to the Declaration of Independence always confuse me. Why? It's a pretty little document but it has no legal power. It's not a document of our nation, just of our national history. It's a statement of ideals, not the rule of law.
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Seph OOC Community Regular

Seph OOC

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Couple things:

Al Capone wasn't so much imprisoned for tax evasion as he arranged to have himself incarcerated. It was a wise move on his part: a lot of people were out to get him, at the time, and prison was vastly safer than being outside. Also, his treatment even in prison largely reflected his status on the outside. The guy had almost anything he wanted and was relatively safe from assassination attempts.

There are a ton of very valid reasons not to pay income tax, and only one good reason to pay it. Unfortunately, the one reason pretty much counterbalances all the others, because that reason is called "government fucks you up the ass". For one, the sixteenth amendment was never properly ratified. Two, the sixteenth contradicts the ninth. Third, the word "income" is never defined anywhere in the tax code, and it should be. Lastly (so far as I can remember off the top of my head), taxation was referred to as "voluntary" in Flora v. United States from sometime in the 50's.

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