41 replies to this topic

[Josh Brickman]

1) Divis is dreadfully bad at communication. He also has roughly a –8 diff…
1) I don't see this. He took over the communication waves to say his Null Manifesto speech. A speech that was very powerful and earth shattering in its implications.   I also don't accept that he has those such limitations, he can talk to novas without penalty (ignoring the fact that has a Mega-Int 9-10 being the depths of his mind are far too complex for some novas). He is not alienated from his own people.

The problem is his people don’t appear to understand what he says.  They want to follow him, they just don’t understand how.  What he says is very forceful and deeply moving… but everyone hears something different.  Supposedly he gave them simple instructions before he underwent his 4th Chrysalis, but when he came out he’s deeply unhappy with what they did.

Further we have Scripture and his roll in the Teragen.
Q: What is Scripture’s Power?   A: Information Mastery

Q: What is Scripture’s role?  A: He carries the word of Mal.

Q: Why is this important, Mal is still around after all?
A (Proposed): Because it’s very difficult for most novas to understand Mal.

I should also note that the rules of others do not apply to him - I am talking game rules not in-setting rules.

I see no evidence for this.   We may not have his character sheet, but as far as I can tell, we aren’t missing any game rules for building him.  AB:WWI talks about what he can do.  The APG has a number of powers that mechanically let novas do just exactly that… the most scary of which are Quantum Supremacy and MASTERY.

So at first he does not have a Node, and then he becomes a Nova. I personally believe that he does not have a Node, or at least not in the same way that other novas do. I feel that he should be considered a 2nd-Gen nova instead of a 1st-gen nova, the time he spent as a Stalwart trained his mind and capabilities into something new.

I wouldn’t be shocked if he has a distributed node like Adam, and there were developer rumors floating around that he started out as a second gen nova (both his parents where either inspired or unerupted novas).

2) Divis is dreadfully bad at organization and leadership in general. The Teragen takes his word and runs around with it in all directions. He gets upset and lets them know they aren’t getting it (right after he gets out of his 4th big C). But everything will turn out right in the end because no matter what they do, he’s going to define that as victory. If they want to worship him as a god, he’s good with that. If they want to do something else, he’s good with that too. This isn’t leadership.
2) The Teragen act the way he wants them to…

Um… No, they don’t.  Mal is deeply unhappy with the way the Teragen act and lets them know it directly on more than one occasion.

3) Divis has extremely serious aberrations. He has AT LEAST roughly 16 points of aberrations… and the only physical ones we see are green glowing eyes and inhuman beauty. That implies a truck load of mental ones. I think Divis is suffering from both Megalomania and Schizophrenia… it’s not a coincidence that both of those are in the core book. I’d also give him Obsession: His theories. Note that disagreeing with which extremely serious aberrations doesn’t change the fact that he has to have them.
3) Again, you are using the normal rules of novas to represent a guy who transcends them rule wise.

True, but if the shoe fits…

Their is a reason that White Wolf never actually posted his rules (Beyond the fact that if he has a right up he can be killed - and Divis Mal cannot be killed by others).

I agree fully that he doesn’t need a write up and can’t be killed.  But also he probably CAN’T have a write up because his powers constantly change.  Both Quantum-Authority and Quantum-Supremacy let him change his powers on demand.  If he needs it, he has it.  Q-Supreme actually lets him give himself more nova points, so in a few months he could get every power in the book with Mastery without too much problem.

Now, he might have them as normal human flaws taken to new heights do to his power. But I do not think that they are quantum-enhanced flaws.

Doctor Primoris didn’t have most of these flaws.  Back in the 1920’s he was probably the most powerful creature on the planet but I see nothing implying he ever demanded worship from Max and the others.  

Even with all that, he is not wrong to have Megalomania (if he has it). He is actually superior to all others. He is a god amongst man, nothing is beyond him. Heck, he even canonically makes his own universe. Personally, I don't see this as a big problem.

Imagine you are married and have Q8.  Are you going to insist that your spouse worship you?  Start a cult devoted towards the worship of you?  Personally I hope I won’t be doing that even if I have Q10.  If you have Q8, will it be possible for you to make a mistake?  To be wrong?  To screw up?  To not see the future results of some of your actions?

Yes, he has it.  Granted, he deserves it more than most, but Mal has it big time.  Having it probably led him to get this level of power (shades of Doom stealing the Boyonder’s power).

The issue of whether or not it causes him problems is more interesting, but I think the answer is that it does cause problems.  Mal is compelled to seek the global stage and act in big global ways when it probably isn’t appropriate.  Further, I see nothing that implies that Mal can’t be wrong, and much that implies he simply can’t acknowledge it.  Mal has a plan, so of course it has to be the best and biggest and most perfect, even if it’s trying to convince Pax to join the Teragen by beating him up in front of cameras.  “He’ll come around”.

Mal wins because he’s willing to define any outcome as victory and he can’t actually lose.  That’s fine, but it doesn’t make him a brilliant planner or masterful leader.  

And I’ll note that no one has commented on my other suggested mental aberration for Mal, Schizophrenia.  We have multiple characters comment that Mal seems awfully detached and removed from reality, and this is reflected in some of his plans, most obviously in his dealings with Pax and the Teragen.  

Edit: That was Courier.

[astronomer]

What's really interesting about Mal is that he's the exception to many rules.  The designers keep mentioning this, even as they only give broad hints and suggestions.  Primoris is an (uber)stalwart, with dynamic knacks and dynamic versions of mesmerist ones.  He grows into an (uber)nova, who has dramatic powers, especially one that lets him do any damn thing (QS).  He eventually creates his own universe to his own specs. He starts out smart enough that only a handful of guys is on his level, and develops to the point that only Scripture can truly know his mind.  And despite all this, he still has feet of clay, he's still his father's child (his words).  He may not actually have mental problems, but it comes across as that when he tries to interact.  When an adult does something, a 2-year old might not like or understand it, but the adult may very well have a valid, sane reason:  don't eat that sweet (poisonous) thing or I'll make you throw up.  Yes, he does or inspires a lot of horrific things, but he also does a lot of good things (for novas).  Check out the proxies in Trinity for people in a similar fix.

[Heru]

Josh Brickman,

To respond to your points,

1) They don't understand how because he never actually comes out and says what he wants people to do. He presents the concept (nova suppremacy) and then lets people figure it out for themselves what it means.

In the end he gets tired (or is it bored?) of this, but at first this is how he seems to operate. Give the other novas a hint and see where it takes them. Obviously, it took them in ways that he did not want which is why he set off the Night of Long Knives and the purge.

The first two questions in this section I can't disagree, and I won't cause I believe them to be true, with. The third question, my answer to this that it might be so. But I truly and firmly believe that his problem is that he has Quantum 10 and Mega-Int like 10 as well. So his problems are based on him being so much smarter and capable of thought than his others. This is not something, for me at least, that I put to him having Quantum Mega-Flaws.

Next part of 1, about him breaking the rules.

Of course you can write him up using Aberrant rules, they are broad enough that almost anything can go. But the writers have never done so.

I like astronomer said it right: he was a mega-stalwart then he became a mega-nova. He was already Inspired when he Erupted, and even before his Inspiration at the Hammersmith Incident he was already at the pinnacle of normal human development.

Like I said, of course you can write him up, but I don't feel that those write-ups are actually truly representing what he is capable of. He is not some Taint ridden monster of a nova, he is the pinnacle of what it means to be a nova.

About his node, I have to agree with you on that. He must have a node somehow, but I figure it is far different than other novas. Maybe its dispersed through his mind or body. I figure that because of his presence at the original Hammersmith Incident he breaks all the normal rules for metahuman development. Doctor Hammersmith was closest and he blew up (probably had no potential for Inspiration), Max Mercer was the second closest and he became the time traveling super-freak, and then third closest was Divis Mal (Michael Doohigal) who became a mega-stalwart.

2) I don't remember why or in what reference I wrote this.

But I will say that at first he allowed the Teragen to do what they wanted without him micromanaging. Then, at some point, he changed his mind and decided that that way wasn't working and so decided to bring all Teragen into his fold - forcibly.

I don't really know, and canon has never answered, what truly caused him to act to bring the Teragen to heel. I will vehemently deny and accusation that it was the death of Scripture, the two of them need to go off to Divis Mal's little universe and live happily ever after.

3) I must say again, I don't think the shoe fits. I don't think he is a normal nova.

Right, also agree on his powers changing. Those powers were them trying to give us rules of Divis Mal. I for one would probably not allow most players access to such heights of power if I were ever run a gain of such magnitude. I figure that those powers are one-use devises available to NPCs and Divis Mal.

I honestly don't see where Divis Mal demands worship. Can you point out the location of that. Maybe I missed it but I don't know where it is. Now I know people worshiped him - the Cult of Mal - but I didn't think he controlled or directed it. Actually, Scripture did but Scripture is not Mal.

He didn't have them extreme enough to be statted out but he probably had them. I just don't think he should have these flaws enhanced with quantum energy and aberrations.

I just don't.

He doesn't have Scripture worship him. Scripture is an equal, its just that Scripture leads the others in worshiping Divis Mal. Look, I like the concept of Divis Mal and Scripture being equal in their relationship and so its hard for me to see Scripture as some obedient mouthpiece for Divis Mal.

Of course his powers cause problems, just not Quantum Mega Flaws. I know I state this over and over again (the quantum mega-flaw idea) but I think it is the core of what I am saying here. He is the closest thing humanity has to a god that is walking around and he knows that. That sort of power goes to your head, anybody's head, and provides you with a grandiose sense of self-importance and worth. Its a normal human flaw.

He is a brilliant planner, it just tha his plans are based on Mega-Ints of 9-10, something that is beyond all baselines and most novas ability to comprehend and reason. That is why they seem to fail, its because they are up against the most stupid of creature - humanity. Remember no plan is fool proof as fools are ingenious.

My answer to your question of Schizophrenia is that he might have it, at a normal human level blown to epic proportions based on his power. But I don't think he has it as an aberration or any other sort of quantum mega-flaw.

huh, what was Courier.

Astronomer,

I have to agree with everything you say in this post. It makes sense and is what I am going with in my explanation of the setting. It is also a very interesting concept about the nature of the main characters in the Trinity Universe setting as in that they don't play by the normal rules. But that's okay, they don't have to, their NPCs.

[Courier]

Quote:

1) They don't understand how because he never actually comes out and says what he wants people to do. He presents the concept (nova suppremacy) and then lets people figure it out for themselves what it means.

In the end he gets tired (or is it bored?) of this, but at first this is how he seems to operate. Give the other novas a hint and see where it takes them. Obviously, it took them in ways that he did not want which is why he set off the Night of Long Knives and the purge.

How is this different from "doesn't organize well", "doesn't lead well", and "doesn't communicate well"?

Basically this is the world's smartest garbage man argument, i.e. if there are problems with us understanding him then the problem is on our end.  That's fine when Dilbert goes to the WSGman and asks for help, it's less fine for the WSGman's own inventions and manipulations.

Quote:

He is not some Taint ridden monster of a nova, he is the pinnacle of what it means to be a nova.

I don't think that's an "either-or" question, I'd say he's both.

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Doctor Hammersmith was closest and he blew up (probably had no potential for Inspiration),

Two issues here; First is that Hammersmith had to be inspired just for the gadget to work.  This is fine as far as it goes, he's a mad scientist, but he isn't fire proof.    He could have become a full psiad and then still died.

The second issue is based on an observation.  Hammersmith died in fires (probably plasma) that are described as almost alive.  Mal's theme is plasma control.  Mal erupted in the fire.

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I will vehemently deny and accusation that it was the death of Scripture...

Scripture has a defense rating of 9, which basically means he has several defensive powers with Mastery.  It's really hard to see how he could get taken out.

Quote:

I honestly don't see where Divis Mal demands worship. Can you point out the location of that. Maybe I missed it but I don't know where it is. Now I know people worshiped him - the Cult of Mal - but I didn't think he controlled or directed it. Actually, Scripture did but Scripture is not Mal.

Scripture understands Mal perfectly with Information Mastery.  Scripture is Mal's long term lover.  Scripture is also most likely Mal's creation, i.e. the one other nova that I'd put money on predating N-Day.

It's really hard to get away from the idea that Mal is aware of what Scripture is up to and both approves of and encourages the same.

RE: Q10
In 2010 when he threw down with Pax cannon says Mal only had Q8.  One of the developers said that there was a nova running around with Mega-Int 8, so that's presumably Mal.

Quote:

He is a brilliant planner, it just tha his plans are based on Mega-Ints of 9-10, something that is beyond all baselines and most novas ability to comprehend and reason. That is why they seem to fail, its because they are up against the most stupid of creature - humanity.  Remember no plan is fool proof as fools are ingenious.

So the plan was perfect it's just our fault that the Mega-Int god didn't remember that everyone else doesn't have Mega-Int 8+?  Why do I not find that reasonable?

Mal messing up his conversion of Pax was a screw up of his Mega-Manip more than his Mega-Int.

[astronomer]

From what I remember in the Teragen book, specifically the chatty sections, Mal pretty much knows from the beginning what he wants, he's got his vision (nova society).  He could just puppet everyone along the optimal path, 'cause he has the smarts, the power, the allies, etc.  He could force the issue any time he wants.  But it's that whole free will thing (damn that Irish Catholic upbringing).  He wants novas to freely choose his path to a glorious future.  In Adventure, his letter to Mercer shows his intent:  Inspired to lead humans forward.  Later, this focus excludes humans, novas (his creation, on N-Day) being his only interest now.  He wants his newly-erupted peers to follow him, but he only hints. He waits impatiently for them to clue in, but they just don't get it. Finally, he says screw this and takes charge.  After 70 years of prep and 20 years of observing, he triggers or allows NOLK because his kids need a spanking.  They just aren't mature enough to think for themselves.  Is this dithering or poor leadership, or a dad who wants his kids to grow up and be peers.  Remember, Orzaiz is one the few he respects.  

[Courier]

Mal pretty much knows from the beginning what he wants, he's got his vision (nova society).

Agreed.  And now we have a problem.  Either Mal doesn't have a problem with novas murdering each other and baselines or he does.

If he doesn't then he's even more Dwarwinistic than most people realize and I have more respect for his planning abilities but less for his ethics.  

If he does have problems with novas murdering each other and baselines, then I have more respect for his ethics but much less for his planning and leadership skills.

The entire situation with tossing the book of laws out the window and then setting up conditions where new ones can't be made is of his making.  Actually many of the situations are of his making, so it has to be one or the other.  You can't simply say, 'the plan was flawless but it made no allowances for the real world situation'.  You can't give a chimp a handgun and expect good things to happen.

After we decide which situation we are in, i.e. was Mal really bad at leadership or simply ethics, then we can talk about why he was so bad at this.  He's got AT LEAST 9 dots in social megas and probably a lot more.  He's got Mega-Int 8.  He's got every power in the book at Mastery x2 levels on demand.  With all the enhancements, he's presumably a Tactical Genius (amoung many).  With all that backing him up his failures become somewhat absurd unless he does also have serious flaws.

[astronomer]

Hmmmm.  That pretty much sums it up.  Mal thinks big picture.  He probably doesn't have a problem with nova/baseline deaths (other than his favorites) because his concern is with nova society.  Once a nova society forms and creates a structure of nova laws, then the rules are there to be followed (Wild West lawlessness becomes lawful civilized society).  He's setting up conditions to make a whole new society with volatile ingredients on the fly.  In the '20's, where a lot of his assumptions were formed, Darwinism and eugenics were big.  So, yes, in pursuit of his dream, he's ruthless and brutal as he thinks he needs.  By normal baseline ethics/morals, pretty monstrous.  But don't forget, morality is defined by society and changes over time (re: abortion, homosexuality, etc), as public opinion drifts.  Ethics are determined by professions or an individuals.  By Mal's ethical constraints, there may be no problems or failure.

[Blue Thunder]

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Scripture has a defense rating of 9, which basically means he has several defensive powers with Mastery. It's really hard to see how he could get taken out.

The 9 defense means nothing to his stats.  It doesn't imply he "basically" has Mastery in anything, much less several defensive powers.  I can see maybe one defensive power with Mastery.  Not several.  A character with several mastery powers is insane; that's multiple level 4 powers.  And with Scripture, he would be getting Mastery for powers like Information Manipulation or Animal Mastery.

Caroline Fong's description points out that she's incredibly intelligent...yet she has something like a 4 Intelligence in her Nova Phile ratings.

Those things aren't accurate.

[Courier]

I seriously doubt that Fong is listed as a 4.

As I recall from the time I tried to make sense of these, the big gapping error in them was Core's Strength listing, and even that could be explained by him increasing his strength between the time the phile came out and the time he was statted.

[Courier]

Fong's Intellect is a 6.  Her versatility is a 9.

An Intellect of 6 presumably corresponds to an Mega-Int of 1 or 2.

Her Versatility is extremely high, Count "O" with all of his social connections, megas in 6 attributes, and precognition only has an 8.

From the write up I gather that in addition to Int she has some flavor of precognition, Q-Awareness, perhaps a suite power of some sort, but it seems unlikely to stop there.

Phile listings are very rough measures, but Script with his 9 in both offense and defense is unlikely to be taken down easily, and this is also confirmed by the various senario flavor texts.

[Blue Thunder]

...what?

Quantum Awareness is a Quantum 6, level 4 power.  And "unlikely to stop there"?  Wow.  Quantum 6 is a big deal, and only a handful of novas on the entire planet have it.  Caroline has been in Chrysalis for who knows how long, but it isn't like she's been gaining power the whole time either; you can't earn XP while in Chrysalis, you can only spend what you have.  And Caroline went into Chrysalis before the Teragen even went public.

Why do you assume she has Q6?  And what in the write-up tells you she has Precognition and a suite power of some sort?  You're making all that up.  The only powers she has in her quantum power description blurb is a deadly q-bolt and an amazing intellect.

You really overestimate her power level...there's nothing in canon that supports her being Q6.

[Courier]

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Quantum Awareness is a Quantum 6, level 4 power.

My bad, I meant Quantum Attunement (the Mega-Perception enhancement which makes you aware of quantum).