41 replies to this topic

[dcrod]

I've heard some users say that at the end of the inspired era Doctro Primoris fought the Aeon society because some statments about the right "logic" behind the nazi project. In what book says this? I didnt found this anywhere.

[astronomer]

In Adventure (p.235, 261), it mentions the conflict, but never
really says why, other than differing philosophy

[Courier]

"The nazi project"?  How much do we know of aeon's involvement with the nazis?

[astronomer]

If I recall correctly, there was a mention that Aeon made a mistake in not opposing the Nazis sooner because they didn't poke their noses in until asked (a Whitley Styles comment, I think).

[Heru]

Those that say that Doctor Primoris or Divis Mal (as he later was known) joined the Nazis are just using half uttered statements of Nazis and their own dislike of the character. It does not fit him as a character (which we can see through his later actions) to join a group like the Nazis on a rampage of terror.

I can't see it happening and its not anywhere in canon.

[Courier]

There are some interesting parallels.

Divis believes in the innate superiority of a racial class (creation of a master race).
The movement he starts eventually decides to commit genocide of inferior races.  
Divis believes in the “cult of personality”.
Divis believes in violence and terrorism as solutions.
He seems to encourage Extreme Nationalism (towards the Teragen) and ethnic nationalism.
He embraces Social Darwinism.
Divis rejects democracy, & laissez-faire capitalism.

My view: There are enough similarities to inference some influence.  But whether that was Divis learning from the Nazis or vise versa is impossible to say.. and of course it could be that both were influenced by a third factor.  It's worth noting lots of people at the time were Social Darwinists, and lots of people believed in eugenics.

It is impossible to picture Divis following Hitler.  It is easier to picture Divis on the shadows, running social experiments and trying out some of his theories.  Alternatively, it might be that Divis had a student, assistant, or even subject (Hitler would be an interesting choice) who took some of his work and took it to the nazis.

[Heru]

Divs beleives in the superiroty of Inspired kind, a natural evolution in the human race. This includes Daredevils, Mesmerists, Stalwarts, Novas, Psiads and Psions.

The movement with his direct say so. In the Null Manifesto he says that it is the job of novas to live away from baselines who are their inferiro, not to kill them all.

Divis never actually asks anybody to worship him, he wants equals. The cult of personality si something that develops without his direct sayso because he is in Chyrsalis so much.

Divis belives that novas can do anything they need to do and that human laws and human morals do not apply to them. Thus, he is as much a beleive in helping as he is of harming. It is all for the beneift of novakind not of baselines.

His belifs are about the superiority of novakind, anything else is secondary. In the Null Manifesto he mentions how only novas can judge novas and only novas can legislate novas.

Divis rejects baseline government democracy is just an aspect of baseline governing. He feels that baseliens are not equipped to handle novas and thus novas have no legal or moral requirement to follow them. He also says that if a day comes (this is in the Null Manfiesto) that when a Conclave of Novas is formed than other novas would have to follow the laws and restrictions of that nova conclave - a democractic body.

It all comes down to him beleiving only novas can judge and rule over novas.

Divs would never follow Hitler or any other baseline poltician for one simple fact - they are baselines and thus inferior to him.

People just seem to want make him evil (because we are looking at his actions from a baseline point of view - if I was a nova I would look at it from his view, I would be a member of the Teragen.) He is not evil he just does not care about baselines, at all. In fact at the end of Aberrant and begining of Trinity it was Max Mercer (another post-human Inspired) who had him stop his actions. It was not the Chinese Ultimatum which, though I don't know for sure, probably meant little to nothing to him.

[Mr Fox]

Actions and words are two different things.  He SAYS he wants equals.  He's actions don't necessarily back that up, aka the Night of Long Knives.  Also, given his ego, I'm not sure he could have handled having anyone around that was an actual equal that might have diagreed with him.

  

Quote:

  Divs would never follow Hitler or any other baseline poltician for one simple fact - they are baselines and thus inferior to him.

Keep in mind he erupted in the late 20s early 30s.  Hitler came to power in the early to mid 30s.  That would have been long before Divis developed chrysalis and his philosophy about novas.
I agree he would never have followed an intellectual inferior like Hitler, however he certainly would have used him or experimented with him.

  

Quote:

  People just seem to want make him evil (because we are looking at his actions from a baseline point of view - if I was a nova I would look at it from his view, I would be a member of the Teragen.) He is not evil he just does not care about baselines, at all.

Yes, and we are also looking at the Nazis from a non-Nazi point of view too.  I'm sure they felt just as justified as Divis.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Heru

Divis believes in the superiority of inspired kind, a natural evolution in the human race. This includes Daredevils, Mesmerists, Stalwarts, Novas, Psiads and Psions.

One third true.  He believes in the superiority of nova kind, which is most certainly NOT a natural evolution since it needed his help on N-day.  And speaking of that help, he slanted it so only one of those five need apply, no Psions, no Stalwarts, just Novas.  

Originally Posted By: Heru

The movement with his direct say so. In the Null Manifesto he says that it is the job of novas to live away from baselines who are their inferior, not to kill them all.

He has no problems with Geryon’s action, and even specifically gives his blessing for them.  Later on, during the war he “becomes the burning center of calls for baseline extermination” (that’s not a quote, but it’s pretty close).

Originally Posted By: Heru

Divis never actually asks anybody to worship him, he wants equals.  The cult of personality is something that develops without his direct say so because he is in Chrysalis so much.

He certainly does want equals.  He also wants them to worship him.

The two novas on the planet who come closest to being his equals are Pax and Scripture.  Scripture is his lover, and has the power of Information Manipulation so he can totally understand Divis.  Scripture is also the head of the Cult of Mal, and refuses to teach people Chrysalis unless they open their eyes to the glory of Mal (not taint, not novadom, Mal).  And yes, it is very clear that not only is Scripture the head (although you could argue for the Apostle), but he is also very much a member.

Originally Posted By: Heru

Divis believes that novas can do anything they need to do and that human laws and human morals do not apply to them. Thus, he is as much a believe in helping as he is of harming. It is all for the benefit of novakind not of baselines.

You almost make it sound like he’s flipping a coin.  He’s a Darwinist and he’s doing his best to remove the rule of law.  Whether or not it will benefit novakind is open to question.  Not all novas are going to be strong, but he doesn’t have a problem with them dying because you need to break some eggs to make an omelet.   As a Darwinist, the strong are going to survive and the weak are going to die.

Originally Posted By: Heru

His beliefs are about the superiority of novakind, anything else is secondary.

I believe in the superiority of nova kind.  That’s fine and good, but it’s a very distant jump from believing that novas are superior to believing that it’s ok if the strong abuse the weak.

Originally Posted By: Heru

In the Null Manifesto he mentions how only novas can judge novas and only novas can legislate novas.

Very true, and this is remarkably self serving considering we aren’t going to see much “judging” of Teragen members until Divis runs the Night of Long Knives and becomes a dictator.  

Originally Posted By: Heru

Divis would never follow Hitler or any other baseline politician for one simple fact - they are baselines and thus inferior to him.

Divis Mal certainly wouldn’t in 1998 when he launches N-day.  Now… how about way back in the 1930’s and 40’s when he didn’t have Q8 (or probably even Q6) and thus didn’t have the ability to create nova peers?  Assume that the 1930’s Divis would never follow Hitler, would he have let Hitler follow him?  Would he have manipulated him?  Used the situation for his own benefit?

How about this for a thought, 1930’s Divis has a device that increases T-energies and he thinks makes it more likely for people to erupt.  The problem is its range is short, and if it’s going to work it’s only going to work on the usual people, i.e. people whose lives are in danger.  Worse, it’s only going to work for the genetically superior, i.e. pre-novas, and those are rare and Divis doesn’t have a way to tell who is whom.  So, what would the best way be to make people erupt if you don’t care about baselines?  Set up a death camp within range of the device, and run a few million people through it.  

Originally Posted By: Heru

People just seem to want make him evil (because we are looking at his actions from a baseline point of view - if I was a nova I would look at it from his view, I would be a member of the Teragen.) He is not evil he just does not care about baselines, at all.

Even if you don’t care about baselines (which is a reach unless you don’t have a spouse, children, parents, other relatives, or friends) Divis runs around converting human novas into unhuman things.  He also is going to have huge amounts of nova blood on his hands, because in order for the strong to survive, the weak must die.  

[Heru]

Responses to MrFox,

It was years before his philosphy about novas yes, but not before his philosphy about the superemecy of the Inspired. He always felt that those who were better (and in this case its those who can manipulate Telleric energy) should rule. But this has nothing to do with race, gender, nationality or anything else that the Nazis might have beleived - it was only based on one thing - Are You Inspired. If yes, congratulations you are gods amongst mortals; if no, you are inferior and your opinions mean little.

About the morality of the Nazis, that is neither here nor there. It is beyond the point of this discussion and it is not something I am going to get into.

Responses to Courier,

Novas are a natural evolution of human kind. It is discribed in the Aberrant Players Handbook that all people have the potential to be novas or psions. It all depends on the genetic roll of the dice.

Stalwarts are the predecessors of Novas, Psions are Inspired. And thus they are superhuman and better than baselines. He was first given powers as an Inspired and it is highly noted in the text of Adventure! that he considers all Inspired to be mighty.

He did not create novas on N-Day, rather he pushed more energy into the Earth's quantum field, making it easier for novas to develop. Because of that they erupted, he did not create them.

Please show your proof of when he demanded that baselines be exterminated. It is said in the core book of Aberrant that he wants novas and baselines to live apart because baseline society is not nova society. This is a far cry from lets destroy them all.

He refuses to teach Chrysalis to those novas not prepared for the change. The only way to go through Chrusalsi is to give up your humanity to become something else. This soemthing else is manfiested in how Divis Mal is: he went through it 4 times and was at the core of one of the worlds earliest Telleric energy waves - the Hammersmith Incident.

What Scripture does has no bearing on what Divis Mal does or has done before.

He does what is best for his people - the novas. If his actions (during the process of helping novakind) also help baselines, than so be it. He doesn't go out of his way kill people just because of it, he does it when he needs to or because it furthers is Mega-Int 9-10 goal.

It is directly stated in the Null Manifesto that he only wants to remove baseline law as it interferes in the rights of novas. He has no problem with nova-created international law that applies to all novas. And he goes on to say that a nova must follow the combined dictates of all of nova kind. He wants a government of nova kind to rule nova kind. It is as simple as that. That is not anarchy, he does not hate the concept of rules of law, he just thinks that baselines have no right to impose it on novas.

Its not the strong abuses the weak, that is the actions of one person toward a member of his own species. What he beleives in is the strnegth of one race (novas) to dominate another weaker race (baselines). From his point of view baselines and novas are far different. So far different that they have no connection in the moral or social sense to each other. This is at the core of his beleif structure.

Your devise is just conjecture and in no way supported by canon. It has no bearing on anything (which sounds harsh but I don't really mean it to be) because N-day wasn't done through technology but through the direct use of his powers. He flooded the energy field of Earth with quantum energy - HIM, alone.

Remember he began as an Inspired, one of the earliest supermen on earth. At this earliest point he thought he used Telluric energy, but using his vast intelliect he realized that their was actually two separate energy forms in the Telluric pattern. He, because he was the precurser to novas, had more connection to the quantum side of the spectrum than he did to the noetic side. But this matters little for he felt that humanity needed to find heroes to bring about a new glorious age. Humans that were, at first, the Inpsired. This can be seen in the articles he wrote in the pages of Adventure!

By the time of the Nova Age he has no baseline friends. His only firends are other Novas and Max Mercer who he always had strong feelings for. Again, note that it wasn't baselines that caused him to leave Earth at the Chinese Ultimatum but rather it was Max. It took the actions of a meta-human to force him to leave - like beats like.

One more point, we do not cannonically know what the Knight of Long Knives was actually like. We have multiple options in the Teragen book but actually no clear definitations of what truly happens. But I have to honestly say I see nothing wrong with Divis Mal rueling over novakind. He has the power and the ability and might as well use it.

PS. I want to add that this is not supposed to sound like a flame war or anything like that. I am just presenting my opinions based on the opinions of others in this board. MrFox and Courier, this message goes directly to you both as you are the ones I am replying to. I guess I could have used alot, but I truly didn't feel like it.  

[Mr Fox]

Quote:

Its not the strong abuses the weak, that is the actions of one person toward a member of his own species. What he beleives in is the strnegth of one race (novas) to dominate another weaker race (baselines). From his point of view baselines and novas are far different.

Again, this is precisely how the Nazis felt about the jews and non-aryans.  Where's the difference?  I believe that the point that was being made above is that there were lots of parrellels between Divis' philosophy and outlook and that of the Nazis.  You are saying there is a major difference, but your very arguements show just how close they are to one another.

Quote:

PS. I want to add that this is not supposed to sound like a flame war or anything like that. I am just presenting my opinions based on the opinions of others in this board. MrFox and Courier, this message goes directly to you both as you are the ones I am replying to. I guess I could have used \:\) alot, but I truly didn't feel like it.  

This is actually a fun little debate.  I am enjoying it.  No flame preceived or intended for my part.

[astronomer]

Divis Mal's philosophy is pretty elitist, as demonstrated in the letter to Mercer and his Manifesto.  To him, it seems like the difference between Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon.  He doesn't hate baselines, but he definitely intends novas to survive and prosper.  If baselines can prosper as well, that's OK.  If not, evolution can be cruel.

[AquaMarine]

Originally Posted By: astronomer

He doesn't hate baselines, but he definitely intends novas to survive and prosper.  If baselines can prosper as well, that's OK.  If not, evolution can be cruel.

I'd have described it a little differently. As Dr Primoris he called the bulk of humanity the "hoi poloi". Which is a nice way of calling them ignorant screw offs that need their betters to take charge before they make a mess so tangled not even the inspired can put it right. Elitist? Sure but with an obligation to humanity. As Divis Mal he's come to see the qualities of humanity as an obstacle to achieving the potential he and other novas are capable of. As Primoris he was a god among men. As Mal he's the first among equals for those willing to write their own rules with mankind as the annoying creatures scurrying in the background.

[Heru]

MrFox,

My problem is not that people say he has a Nazi-like philosphy (this is one thing) but that a lot of people say that he worked for the Nazis (which is a whole nother think).

I agree with you that his idelogies are very much Nazi-ish, that is not debated by me. What is debated is that he would stoop so low (and for him it is stooping low) and actually join this group of baseline misfits. I am not saying that this is what you mean by your posts, that this seems to be the all-to-common misconception. When you ask these people where this concept comes from they can't point to any one location but wave their hands and say - its their, I know it is.

I have a big problem with one group of humans in the real world saying they are better than another group of humans. Considering that all are humans this means that we are all on the same level when it comes to power.

The Inspired are on a whole nother playing field when it comes to power and authority. All types of Inspired - Daredevils, Stalwarts, Mesmerists, Psions, Psiads and Novas - are above the common throng of baseline humanity. To me such groups can and - in some way - should have a beleif of superiority. They are, 100% superior in terms of might and power. And when it comes to Novas intelligence as well.

I hope that clears up where I'm mostly coming from on the 'Divis Mal Joins the Nazis' debate.

Now I should also point out that I don't think that this should mean that the Inspired should put their heads in the sand and ignore baseline issues. No, they should use their powers to effect the world they live in. I just think that the problems of baseline society do not truly effect them on a macross level. Or, at least novas more than the other closer to the baseline norm Inspired.

So when Divis Mal issues his proclamion that all Novas are their own countries until some nova-country is developed, I actually agree with him. I do feel that Novas should rule themselves, maybe they could create some sort of Nova Deliberative in which all novas have a voice and a vote. That way they can make strictures on nova behavior that all other novas have to follow - or be confronted by the nova group.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that as supermen them have to come up with their own morality. A morality that is not truly represented by baseline morality as baseline morality does not have to handle the question of superpowers.

Astronomer,

First, I want to say glad to here you opinions on this. I haven't responded to your comments on Eon because the thread seems to have been hyjacked by topics how I am wrong about liking certain thinks. But no anger on my part exists,

About your view on this, I have to agree 100%. Though I would use  the analogy of Monkeys and Humans. Considering that Novas do share some genetic connection, just like humans share some connection to Monkeys. Yet it is self-evident that Monkeys and Humans are different species, and so to him, it is self-evident that Inspired and Baseliens are different species.

I bet his opinion on hate is that hate is something that one should place on something that is on the same level on the playing field. I could hate an ant, but it does not really mean anything as that ant is so far beneath me. He could hate a baseline, but that baseline has no hope of ever equaling him or even understanding a tenth of what he can understand, perceive or do.

And while I understand that this analogy fails, mostly do to the fact that baselines are sentient while ants are not. It might work enough on a basic level so as to carry my meaning. Well, I least hope so.

Aqua Marine,

While I agree on some of your points, I gotta say that his philosphy didn't so much change as shift into new areas as his understanding and power developed. He always saw the Inspired as superior and baselines infeiror. He did act upon the world to make novas appear in much more quanity than they did naturally. I would say that this is him acting to develop humanity on a broad way into a new species.

In fact, in the game Adventure! he actually mentions ot Max how he feels the Inspired should take their place as the rightful rulers of the world. He goes on to say it is only through this that humanity can be advanced to a higher state of existence.

This is pretty much the same think he states in Aberrant, it just by this time he has the power to actually effect the universe and make his will come through.

[Mr Fox]

Quote:

I agree with you that his idelogies are very much Nazi-ish, that is not debated by me. What is debated is that he would stoop so low (and for him it is stooping low) and actually join this group of baseline misfits.

See I disagree with this.  You are seeing it from a 2007 perspective in which we have 60 years worth of 20/20 hindsight.  In the 30s Germany was pulling itself up by it's bootstraps from the utter ruin it was in after WWI.  Many people felt simpathy for the German people for what they had gone through after WWI. Alot of poeple at the time were looking at what was happening over there in a very positive light.  It wasn't until after the war started that opinion really cemented against Germany.  Keep in mind that there was a Nazi party of America before the war that had rallies and everything.   (They were not like the postwar racist freaks that exist now days, but real mainstream types, and their purpose was to influence Americans to lean toward joining Germany, or at least stay out of the conflict.)

Anyway the point is that in the 30s the Nazis weren't viewed as they are now.  There is no reason that Primoris wouldn't have been interested in what was happening there, the whole world was.

[Heru]

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

Quote:

I agree with you that his idelogies are very much Nazi-ish, that is not debated by me. What is debated is that he would stoop so low (and for him it is stooping low) and actually join this group of baseline misfits.

See I disagree with this.  You are seeing it from a 2007 perspective in which we have 60 years worth of 20/20 hindsight.  In the 30s Germany was pulling itself up by it's bootstraps from the utter ruin it was in after WWI.  Many people felt simpathy for the German people for what they had gone through after WWI. Alot of poeple at the time were looking at what was happening over there in a very positive light.  It wasn't until after the war started that opinion really cemented against Germany.  Keep in mind that there was a Nazi party of America before the war that had rallies and everything.   (They were not like the postwar racist freaks that exist now days, but real mainstream types, and their purpose was to influence Americans to lean toward joining Germany, or at least stay out of the conflict.)

Anyway the point is that in the 30s the Nazis weren't viewed as they are now.  There is no reason that Primoris wouldn't have been interested in what was happening there, the whole world was.

Actually, I was looking at it from the point of view of Divis Mal, A very known and well-supported Inspired suppremist. He would not have joined an order that sought to make one group of baselines superiror to another group of baselines. Rather, he would have tried to make all baselines (or at least those with the potential of being Inspired) into something more than what they were.

Now saying that, I would have to say that the social programs of Nazi Germany were a perfect fit for this. They tried to get healthy, socially activate and well-edcuated citizenry. This I could see him watching and learning from.

Its the later actitions that make the Nazis so well known that I cannot see him supporting. I mean if somebody asked him to remove all the jews, he would probably go 'why, they are as baseline as any other human group.' The removing of them would have been pointless to him.

I mean remember that ebven back then he was more nova than stalwart. He was highly intelligent and probably already hade some Mega-Attributes, though probably not very high. He probabbly came up with new theories and ideas that would not occur to humanity for decades hence.

So I guess you are right, . He would probably have watched their earlier actions in an interested light. Though, again I will state this, I don't think their later practices would have interested him one bit.

Just for the record, I am a history major who has a knack for studying a culture under its own morayes and not my own. I don't judge the behaviors of others in the past by the standards of today. For I know that (and history supports this) the standards of tomorrow will be at odds with todays. Thus, especially with a concept like the Nazi's, I can study and talk about them without automatically labeling them nasty, evil people. (I really dislike the concept of black and white morality, nothing is really 'evil', its all shades of gray.)

[Mr Fox]

I definitely agree, I don't think some of their later practices would have had any appeal for him, ie the extermination of the jews.  There is of course no canon basis for this, but I could easily see him involving himself in what was happening in Germany early on and then dropping them like a hot potato once they started losing the war.

I think we have a few things in common.  I have been a history teacher (graduated with enough hours in history to have earned a history degree if that had been my focus at the time).  I too dislike black and white morality, but I think that somethings definitely stray into the category of true evil.  Killing 6 million jews, condeming people because they believe differently than you do, politicians who put their own careers ahead of the good of the country they are supposed to be serving, etc.

[Heru]

He probably did leave them when they started loosing. Actually, I bet he watched them for a little while, game some hints, and then eventually used his highly intelligent brain years before the tide turned to actually realize they were going to loose. He then left them and began his own studies into human nature and the Telleric energy field.

Thats cool, its always nice talking to people who are not so far different in idelogy that conversation becomes a yelling match. See I can't really say I see that has true evil because, for me, delcaring something TRUE EVIL means that their is some great cosmic law that makes certain things good and certain things bad. Now, do I think that its a very bad thing to do, yes, I also see it has pointless and stupid. They had a lot going for them (besides their social programs, they had really cool looking uniforms) but then they had to go and ruin it by trying to go and and act all genocidal. War itself is natural, even WWII would have been considered 'normal' if it wasn't for that.

About you last part, I agree completely. I think that judging somebody with a different beleif as [insert really nasty description here] is something to be labelled as wrong. Who are we as humans equal to others to tell that others are wrong (if what they do is not harming others). I also agree that one needs to serve their people first before they serve themselves, politicans being the best example fo those that should follow this.

Actually, I created a thread in the Aberrant forum about trying to create a nova society that has found away to reach a state of glory. My concept is that somehow a society develops in which working for the good of society is what provides you fame and power. Not working for yourself. Check it out, you might find it interesting.

But this is kind straying off the topic of this thread, and I do not want to be labelled as a thread hijackor.

[astronomer]

While I've not seen any specific mention of Primoris with Nazis, the timeline does mention him opposing Aeon in 1943.  With Styles' commenting that Aeon was slow to oppose Nazism, this does suggest a connection. Primoris' elitist (or aristocratic/supremacist) tendencies might have induced him to observe Germany's rise (a very fast and vigorous rise, by the by). Considering his bias toward the Inspired, he might have aligned himself with Nazis, but with his interests dominant.  Once Germany faltered and went down, they were no longer of use.  As for the evil of Nazis (for whom I hold no liking), consider history.  The slaughter of innocents in Biblical stories, the rape of the Sabine women (and death of their men), the impalings of Vlad Dracul, all these show that ugly things lurk in human nature.

[Heru]

Definitly astronomer, I have to agree with you 100%. Him paying attention to them could have caused Mercer and the rest of Eon society to slow their actions. It is very much an interesting plot hook, and it tells about his connections to Eon even though he was no longer a member.

Of course his interests were dominant, he would never have put the interests of inferiors ahead of his own enlightened purpose.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Heru

What Scripture does has no bearing on what Divis Mal does or has done before.

Script is closest to Mal of all the other novas and understands him best, perhaps from decades of experience.  It’s non-cannon, but I think the rumor was that they met in a book store long before N-day.

Originally Posted By: Heru

It is directly stated in the Null Manifesto that he only wants to remove baseline law as it interferes in the rights of novas. He has no problem with nova-created international law that applies to all novas. And he goes on to say that a nova must follow the combined dictates of all of nova kind. He wants a government of nova kind to rule nova kind. It is as simple as that. That is not anarchy, he does not hate the concept of rules of law, he just thinks that baselines have no right to impose it on novas.

Um… the problem with him not having a problem with the rule of law is the very circumstances he’s has set up prevent it from occurring.  Basically he’s good with the idea if the world were perfect, but until that time he doesn’t want it.  And of course, his crew’s divisions pretty much prevent anything close to consensus for this from happening.  

Originally Posted By: Heru

Its not the strong abuses the weak, that is the actions of one person toward a member of his own species. What he beleives in is the strnegth of one race (novas) to dominate another weaker race (baselines).

True as far as the species is concerned, but very untrue for individuals.  He doesn’t have problems with nova serial killers of novas joining the movement (Epoch specifically and elites in general).  He doesn’t have problems with strong Terats killing weaker ones, he even encourages it during the NOLK.

”This is the essence of Teras: The strong must prevail…” (Divis Mal addressing the pantheon on page 82 of AB: Teragen)

Originally Posted By: Heru

From his point of view baselines and novas are far different. So far different that they have no connection in the moral or social sense to each other. This is at the core of his belief structure.

I agree.  Now, ignoring how insane this is (more on that later)… what moral things just got tossed out here?  Murder is bad?  Marriage is good?  Rape is bad?  How would you feel if your character were raped and murdered simply because someone else felt like having a good time and didn’t think the rules applied to him?

I will grant you, nova powers grant MANY exceptions to the rules, even to such things like murder.  Clone is a good example of where laws for that become problematic.  However, most novas don’t have the power to Clone.  Should bioluminescense really include a license to kill as part of the package?

Originally Posted By: Heru

Your devise is just conjecture and in no way supported by canon. It has no bearing on anything…

Largely true, but you didn’t answer the question so I’ll ask it again.  Would such a scenario be consistent with both cannon and Divis’ personality?

While Cannon doesn’t actually support it, we do know that Aeon threw down with Divis during the war in Europe.  We don’t know why, but we do know that Aeon “won” and Divis got away.  Considering how powerful Divis likely was by that time, said scenario/device would let Aeon ‘win’ by destroying the device… because otherwise I don’t see how they can go toe to toe with a nova who has 20 years of experience.  Or to put that a different way, cannon doesn’t support it but it does fit what we know about cannon as far as the events.

How about personality?  

Originally Posted By: Heru

One more point, we do not canonically know what the Knight of Long Knives was actually like. We have multiple options in the Teragen book but actually no clear definitions of what truly happens. But I have to honestly say I see nothing wrong with Divis Mal ruling over nova kind. He has the power and the ability and might as well use it.

Divis has the power.  He has the social megas.  Those are the good points.

The bad:  I see three problems.

1) Divis is dreadfully bad at communication.  He also has roughly a –8 diff for relating to baselines (from being through the big C 4 times) and untainted novas.  Earlier you claimed he wasn’t calling for baseline extermination.  This means that several of his personality cults have it wrong (specifically the Harvesters).

2) Divis is dreadfully bad at organization and leadership in general.  The Teragen takes his word and runs around with it in all directions.  He gets upset and lets them know they aren’t getting it (right after he gets out of his 4th big C).  But everything will turn out right in the end because no matter what they do, he’s going to define that as victory.  If they want to worship him as a god, he’s good with that.  If they want to do something else, he’s good with that too.  This isn’t leadership.

3) Divis has extremely serious aberrations.  He has AT LEAST roughly 16 points of aberrations… and the only physical ones we see are green glowing eyes and inhuman beauty.  That implies a truck load of mental ones.  I think Divis is suffering from both Megalomania and Schizophrenia… it’s not a coincidence that both of those are in the core book.  I’d also give him Obsession: His theories.  Note that disagreeing with which extremely serious aberrations doesn’t change the fact that he has to have them.  

Originally Posted By: Heru

PS. I want to add that this is not supposed to sound like a flame war or anything like that.

We aren’t flaming.  We are disagreeing and (I hope) having fun doing so.

[astronomer]

I think it's pretty clear that by N-Day Mal's drifted pretty far from baseline society/norms.  The -8 social diff from Chrysalis is a minimum if he takes up to 4 or 5 C before conversion, and his aberrations are mostly mental from canon context.  For a gay man in the 19oo's, rejected (as he sees it) by the man he loves, with only a handful of peers who later reject his views, oppose and eject him from their fellowship (not sure how Crackshot and her death fits here), forced to wait nearly 70 years to have a new peer group he creates, developing near-limitless superpowers and inventing a esoteric method of coping with cosmic energies burning thru him ..... he's actually a fairly well-adjusted fellow.  If anything, the fact that he can relate to and interact with people (baseline or nova) at all is stunning.  Add to that his nova-aristocratic views, he's not really a megalomaniac (oh, yeah).  His attempt to create a nova society fails because how do you unify several thousand demigods, all with their own views and mindsets (see: Greek myths).  

[Courier]

Quote:

For a ... he's actually a fairly well-adjusted fellow.

Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how was the show?

Quote:

the fact that he can relate to and interact with people (baseline or nova) at all is stunning.

Willpower 10, lots of mega-int with taint resist, so he's fairly functional.

Quote:

if he takes up to 4 or 5 C before conversion

I think you can't even try for it unless you have 5, but it's been a while.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: astronomer

Add to that his nova-aristocratic views, he's not really a megalomaniac (oh, yeah).  His attempt to create a nova society fails because how do you unify several thousand demigods, all with their own views and mindsets (see: Greek myths).  

RE: Megalomaniac
Yes, he is.  He might as well have his picture next to the entry.  He's got his own cult run by his long term lover who understands him the best.

RE: Attempt fails
The problem with excusing him because the job was impossible is he was the one who created those 1000s to start with.  

If his meglomania hadn't lead him to try to reshape the world in one fell swoop, he could have used his powers to convert one follower at a time, like he did with Scripture.  It would have been a slower process and have taken longer, but it would have worked.

[astronomer]

The megalomania thing was supposed to be sarcastic (new at posting, unsure of subtleties).  There were mentions of his impatience re formation of nova society.  For a pretty much immortal demigod above baseline limitations, he sure does seem to have the usual problems, albeit writ way large.  Patience on his scale is not his forte.  A mere 70 years should have been nothing to him, although he might not have known he had centuries.  Being the first uber-nova is a tough act, especially if you didn't get a rulebook.

[Heru]

Okay, where to begin.

Courier,

Whether or not it is canon on this being how they met, I am so going to use it. I think him meeting his future lover in a bookstore is one of the most romantic thinks I have heard.

Its now canon in my mind.

He doesn't want Baseline law, he wants nova law. I completely see where he is going with this. Its not a problem. He is saying that because baselines can't truly know him or his siblings, they have no right to judge him. It wouldn't be fair or balanced.

I describe this era of lawlessness (before a hypothetical union age) to be the child rearing age of novakind. Though we know that they don't truly survive it, if they did they would have learned what can be done and what should not be done. Its a highly important period in their time. Too bad canon says it does not help them.

I just gotta say that the problem with what we know if the Knight of Long Knives is that its all conjecture. We know that the event actually happens, we just don't know the details. The Teragen book gives us multiple options and says 'STs pick the one you like best.' This is a shitty metaplot concept.

Of course, I refuse to accept any canon history in which Divis Mal becomes alone cause Scripture dies. For me, when Divis Mal goes off in his own universe, Scripture goes with him as his Holy Consort.

He also says that this sort of think can only be made illegal if a council of novas decide that it is illegal. As their is no rule of law (at this point in time) the only law is that of the strong. Like I said, its a phase that they are going through.

If I was a baseline then what I felt matters little in the sceme of nova behavior. I cannot do anything to stop them, I do not have the power. Thus, my wants and needs mean little.

If I was a nova, then my wnats mean a lot. I could forcibly stop them from doing what they did. I can also use my power to make them see me as an equal.

The rules of baselines do not apply, because baselines cannot enforce those rules on a nova (not without extreme force or with the aid of a nova helpign them.) That is my point, baselines have no method of singularly forcing a nova to comply.

Very few novas just have Bioluminescnce, most also have Mega-Attributes and the enahncements that go with them. They also have higher levels of stamina, healing and longer life. Their is a lot of things that separate a nova from a baseline. And so yes, I do feel that a character who is a nova must choose (of his own free will) whether or not to accept the flawed rules of baseline society.

Eon probably won cause Max Mercer asked Divis to stop what he was doing. This is conjecture, but it is canon that Divis always and will always respect the opinion and words of Max.

I'm sorry, but no I can't accept him trying to make a devise. I can see him studying and learning from the Nazis (withotu actually joining them). But I can't see him creating a devise to kill the jews. Not only that but he himself was gay, why would he kill his own 'kind.' I just can't accept that.

Lets look at the bad points and my responses to them.

1) I don't see this. He took over the communication waves to say his Null Manifesto speech. A speech that was very powerful and earth shattering in its implications.

I also don't accept that he has those such limitations, he can talk to novas without penalty (ignoring the fact that has a Mega-Int 9-10 being the depths of his mind are far too complex for some novas). He is not alientated from his own people.

I should also note that the rules of others do not apply to him - I am talking game rules not in-setting rules.

He went through Inspiration as a Stalwart long ago, actually at the Hammersmith Incident. He was bathed in the most intense Telleric energy field of them all (with Max Mercer as either close second or tie, or more). He transcended normal Stalwart nature as the Inspired transcended normal human nature. He had powers that crossed the lines of Inspired type (it syas that he probably has almost all Pyshcic Knacks in addition to his Stalwart knacks).

Then he, somehow, kicked started his own evolution sot aht he personally grew into the power of a nova. He is the only indivdual I know of in canon that was once a different type of Inspired. And despite the fact that Stalwarts are primtiive Novas, their are so many differences.

So at first he does not have a Node, and then he becomes a Nova. I personally beleive that he does not have a Node, or at least not in the same way that other novas do. I feel that he should be considered a 2nd-Gen nova instead of a 1st-gen nova, the time he spent as a Stalwart trained his mind and capabilities into something new.

So, all in all, I'm sorry but I don't beleive what you are saying.

2) The Teragen act the way he wants them to. Before he takes over in the Night of Long Knives he let them do what they wanted. He watched occassionally, helped form it, but stepped back. This is not a failure of order, but a personal decisison he made - he wants to see what his 'children' will do without him personally their directing them like soldiers in army. He will eventually see that this doesn't work and so take direct charge. This will lead up the Aberrant War and the Chinese Ultimatum with him appearing in the UN building, killing the Secretatry General and Max telling him to leave.

3) Again, you are using the normal rules of novas to represent a guy who transcendes them rule wise. Their is a reason that White Wolf never actually posted his rules (Beyond the fact that if he has a rightup he can be killed - and Divis Mal cannot be killed by others).

His personaly was always "I am the best." Even when he was a normal human. He was more intelligent, more physically capable and more 'better' than those around him. This only became more enhanced after his Inspiration.

Now, he might have them as normal human flaws taken to new heights do to his power. But I do not think that they are quantum-enhanced flaws.

Even with all that, he is not wrong to have Megalomania (if he has it). He is actually superior to all others. He is a god amongst man, nothing is beyond him. Heck, he even canonically makes his own universe. Personally, I don't see this as a big problem.

astronomer, post 1

I have to actually agree with you, he is well-adjusted. He feels storng for what he beleives in and is willing to do what he feels is necessary.

I don't know what else to say in relation to you post, except that this is 100% in line with my own thoughts about this man.

Courier, post 3

Post two was just in relation to astronomer's post, can't say much on that.

I think he his megalomaniac, just the normal human variety. And like I said before, he has a reason to be: his godcomplex is true, he is the cloest think to a god that actually walks this world in Aberrant.

He didn't actually create them, he just enhanced the energy field making it easier for them to manifest. Nature actually gave them the potential to become novas, he just pushed it along.

This might seem like narrow focusing, but I feel its a major difference. He couldn't give it to those who did not have it, he could only activate it in those that did. Otherwise he would have given it to all of humankind.

But this is not want he wanted, he didn't want followers (or not exactly) what he wanted was equals. And this could have only been done by a broad-spectrum nova awakening.

Astronomer, post 2

Yeah, I gotta say his patience seems to be weaking as he gains in power. It both makes sense and doesn't. Why need patience when you can do anything you want at a moments thought. At the same time, their are some things that only time can make happen right.

Yeah, he got no rulebook. He is doing all that he is doing because of his lifetimes worth of experience - first as a normal, though intelligent normal, then an Inspired, then a Nova, and then a god.

[astronomer]

I've been looking thru Adventure again and spotted a couple of things.  On p.235, it states that Primorisis is a stalwart, but beyond normal stalwarts (ie a full nova) with dynamic versions of psychic knacks (ie not psiad TK, but nova version, for example). From previous posts, stalwarts are low-level stealth novas(sort of).  In Asia Ascendant, it talks about how the low-level, non-cosmic novas are more stable and taint-resistant (sounds like stalwarts, sort of).  On p.264, it mentions under Annabelle Lee Newfield's entry that she's the catalyst for Primoris' break with Aeon. In the end, he's damn impressive.  He shows a path for his people, waits a decade to see what they do, and gets impatient and forces the issue in NOLK.  Things lead up to the War and the Ultimatum, the exodus from Earth, and the creation of his own universe.  I've tried putting myself in his place with my own mindset and gotten scary results.  While his specific methods are dicey, would mine be any better in his situation?  Given his power, he could have defied the Chinese, smashed their fleet and seized whatever was left of Earth.  At any point, he could have done so, but he didn't.  Mercer, or deceny,or not wanting a Pyhrric victory?  Up to you ...

[Heru]

Last point first cause it stands out: Its actually Mercer who has him stop. Its one Inspired talking to another Inspired. This is the only reason he stopped - what Baselines say or do matters little to him.

It doesn't actually say he is a nova. It says that he is as far above normal Stalwarts as Stalwarts are above baselines. He is still built using the normal Inspired rules in most says (i.e., he uses Inspiration instead of Quantum, does not have a node, etc) but he transcends the artifical boundry. He also has access to a lot of psychic knakcs as heroic knacks due to his 'awesomness.'

I know for a fact that if I had as much power as him I would probably do what he does. This is not a scary thought for me as I beleive that if I was a different species (as he is, he's no longer a standard human) normal concepts do not apply to me. Maybe this is why I have no problem with what he does - and I will never say that I do. Nor will I backstep and say that I won't do what he does.

Of course, the world doesn't have to worry about me becoming Divis Mal-level power.

And your right astronomer, he is damm impressive. I find it very cool that White Wolf would put a character of such power in the setting.

[Blue Thunder]

If Divis Mal was perfect, he wouldn't be nearly as interesting and tragic as he is.  I like thinking of Mal as en extremely flawed being, despite his power.  I seriously doubt he has the Egomaniacal aberration though.  Pax most certainly does.  But while Mal may have a larger ego than an average person, I still don't see it as great enough to warrant an aberration over it.  Someone with Egomaniacal is obsessed with their image and their position in social situations.  While Mal certainly wouldn't want to lose his position as a nearly Messiah-like nova figure, he doesn't seem in love with himself.  Overconfident?  Hell yes.  Egomaniacal?  Nope.

If the Aeon games were ever made into a movie/series/comic book, then the moment when Divis decides not to destroy humanity after the Chinese Ultimatum and instead leave Earth for another universe would probably be the most dramatic point in the entire line.  He held the fate of the world in his hands.  With a single word ("Never!") he could have destroyed all that humanity had created.  I think that during this single moment, he remembered Max's words and gained clarity (and with his time-travelling powers, Max could have very well worded the letter so that Mal would feel this way).  He realised that he had gone too far, and that his continued presence was not going to help baselines or novas.  He elected to leave for good.  Cue sad dramatic music.

That's my take anyway.  The details of Mal's life and personality aren't fully detailed, and even less is known about the Aberrant War, so everyone is free to add their own view on the Teragen during this time.  That's mine.

Divis spent 150 or so years planning to create a nova society where his kind would be dominant.  And while he certainly sacrificed many lives along the way, and while he certainly didn't have a clean soul afterwards, his goal was admirable.  He stumbled along the way and he made mistakes...his creation of the N-Day wave resulted in high Taint levels, he wasn't firm enough with his followers, he eventually condoned the deaths of several followers that had fallen out of his favor, he became a dictator-like nova as the years went on, he approved of the deaths of many baselines, and so many other things.  For every good choice he made, he probably made three bad ones, and millions suffered because of it.  And yet at the very end, right at the "flashpoint of human existence" to steal a line from Kingdom Come, he chose to let humanity live.

He's not what you one would generally consider a "good" character in the baseline moral sense, but that's what makes him so damn enjoyable to read about.  Flawed characters are the most interesting.  Mal has all the flaws I listed and more, Pax is a self-absorbed ego-tripping jerk, Antaeus considers baselines intellectually inferior and has difficulty relating to them, Leviathan embraces his darker nature and lets himself enjoy that which makes him a monster, Apostle betrayed his lover and plans on betraying his current mentor, Anna DeVries thinks of baselines as pawns, Totentanz lives only for the thrill of killing, Director Thetis is willing to sacrifice every nova on the planet because she thinks it will save baselines, Feathered Serpent destroys Mexico City and kills millions, Felice Taylor floods Florida by accident, and so many more.  Every one of them is royally f*cked up to some degree.  But that's why they're interesting characters.  If every nova was Alejandra or Slider, no one would give a crap.  I think more RPGs need Divis Mals.

I don't see a strong connection between Divis Mal and the Nazis.  He may have agreed with their philosophy at first, and a lot of people did, but the Nazis were different during the 1930s.  I see Mal as being more of an Anglophile than a Nazi, personally; he totally gave me Anglophile vibes in Adventure.

Though, it's interesting to point out that Hitler carried out an event during his regime's pre-war years (I believe it was pre-war, can't be certain) that was later called the Night of Long Knives.  If I remember correctly, he assassinated overnight those within his regime that he felt would be obstacles to his goals down the road.  Perhaps Primoris/Donighal/Mal observed this, and used it as inspiration to carry out his own NoLK in the Nova Age?  Or maybe the developers were giving us a subtle clue to Mal's origins during the Adventure era?

Then again, Hitler's Night of Long Knives was named after another Night of Long Knives event from far in the past.  Who knows?  Maybe the developers just thought it was a spiffy name and didn't mind having three seperate NoLK events in history.

Sorry if I went off-topic!

[Heru]

First of all, I think I am going to have to sum up my thoughts on your post with a big ol': I agree to pretty much all of it.

Now to the more section by section analysis.

I agree that Divis Mal does not have some of those aberrations. He just has those aspects in a normal human level.

Acutally, this is a perfect time for me to say that I don't want flawless heroes. What I want is heroes with normal human level flaws. What I don't want is enahnced flaws and special flaws based on their superhero stature. Divis Mal can be as flawed as a normal human, what he can't be is in possession of Quantum Mega-Flaws. Its things like that that bother me to know end.

Things like Taint work on a very basic level, as long as it can be removed in time. Actually, I have no problem with Temporary Taint. What I do not like is Permanent Taint based on Quantum level or Node level. This is stupid and I don't buy it. Actually, I fee the same way for the Great Curse in Exalted, its a great metaplot and setting thing but it sucks in actual play. Actually, I have chosen to remove it from the game I am actually running. But that is another discussion.

It fits here though because its these things that cause the existence of Quantum Mega-Flaws. I have no problem with some of them but I hate that they became crippling or that they make characters insane or monsters.

I gotta say that your discription of the end of the Aberrant War is awesome and one that I agree with totally. It is the most epic and entertaining part of the entire metaplot. The entire Earth was hanging in the balance waiting for the decision of one man, thats right, one man. The Chinese Ultamatum, in the end, was meaningless, for the novas should in general (and Divis Mal in particular) been able to handle it. Divis Mal himself controls Plasma and nuckes use fusion to generate their devasation - this is osmething he controls. So in the end it was one Inspired (Max Mercer) aiding th eother Inspired (Divis Mal) in deciding the right thing. The baselines had no say in it. And I find that the most awesome aspect of the entire part. The dramatic music definitly needs to be played.

Personally, I feel that he had a clean soul afterwards. I don't think that he did that much bad. Not in comparison to what other baselines and novas did. He had a lot of power and choose to use it. That is not bad in my mind.

I also do not consider him a bad character (as in the oppostie of a 'good' character). Though I can't argue with you when you say from a baseline moral sense. I truly beleive that he transcends that baseline morality and that what he discovered as his personal morality is better fitting of him.

Still, I must say that in all of the Trinity Universe line he is my absolute favorite character - in a good sense. But of cause this could be because I like powerful leaders who doo what they say they are going to do. For example, I really like Palpatine, who was admitteldy a nasty 'bad' man.

But I do agree with you when you say that he was not perfect, he was far from it. His abilities were superhuman and so were his flaws. But (like I said above) he had normal human flaws magnified because of the power he possessed. They were not magnifed because of his Quantum, I refuse to by that.

What do you mean by Anglophile. Because if I am thinking the same thing that you are (which maybe) then I think I agree. But I am not entirely sure what you mean by that term in this context.

It is highly interesting that he choose to use the symbolism of the Night of Long Knives. Its an interesting look into his personality. Though I do want to say that canon, we do not really know what occured in the Night of Long Knives. Like I have said in previous posts we have a lot of options but no direct: This is what occured.

Your post is not of topic, its directly related to Divis Mal and his personality which has become the topic of this thread.