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Aberrant RPG - Force Field


Ammonites

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Quote:
Thoughtwave: Very easy indeed. Shame that it didn't have any effect when I posted it back on page 2.
You didn't post it very well. Then you tried to back it up with Ironskin and shouting down disagreement. Ironskin isn't a strong argument considering his company. Shouting down isn't an argument at all.

What you said back on page 2 was:

Thoughtwave: ...we do have this from Conrad Hubbard:

"I would say that yes you could have multiple similar powers." and "I do not believe you can activate them simultaneously, nor would I allow them to stack."


You didn't bother to post what the question was, so knowing the answer wasn't very informative ("42"). How is "multiple similar powers" defined for this question? Why did you post only snippets of the conversation? Is it in context?

See, it wasn't a very definitive posting and I treated it as such.
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Another permutation that hasn't seen much discussion - multiple instances of identical powers.

Usually this won't make much sense (buying two identical Quantum Bolts is just a waste of points). However, there are a few rare exceptions, Luck being a good example.

Luck is only useable once per scene. Why not purchase Luck twice at lower values (exchanging, for instance, Luck 5 for Luck 2 and Luck 3) so that you can use Luck multiple times at a somewhat lesser effectiveness? Of course, you wouldn't be able to stack the two powers, but you wouldn't have to burn all your Luck on one roll, either.

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Why should anyone bother getting that second dot of Clone when they can get the same power again? Or Same Power + Minor Flaw?

Or Intuition?

Or Psi-Shield?

Or Boost?

Or Invisibility?

Many powers that depend on a power roll (like Intuition, Luck, or Boost) or which add Quantum (Invisibility or Clone) become seriously broken if they are taken multiple times.

Soak is just part of this. Taking Clone again lets me create 6 more clones. Taking Invisibility again adds another Quantum auto-succ to my stealth roll, so instead of being really hard to detect me it's now impossible for anyone, including the likes of Scripture.

These are so seriously broken that it shouldn't be possible to cause this situation to start with.

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The reason for having more dots in a power like luck it to have more die to roll. If you have two dots and three dots in luck, you will roll two die, then three die, but this will increase your chances of botching. With five die, your chances of getting bad luck are less than with two die and three die, not to mention increasing the number of successes with each use. Therefore the power become more effective and safer to use at a lower quantum cost.

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True, but botching a luck roll isn't that bad. It just changes a botch from Fail and a 1, to Fail and a 1 or 2.

You'd be better off with 5 dots in luck vs. 2 + 3. But 3 sets of 3 dots in luck would still be a total of 9 dice rolled for luck, which would normally require a Q of 9.

Luck is Perm and has no q-cost so the draw backs would be minimal.

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I'm not really sure where you're getting this. To quote myself:

"Of course, you wouldn't be able to stack the two powers, but you wouldn't have to burn all your Luck on one roll, either."

See, I specifically mentioned that you wouldn't be able to stack instances of the Luck power, in keeping with our, "I do not believe you can activate them simultaneously, nor would I allow them to stack," from Hubbard.

Similarly, if you had two Clone 1 powers, you could still only have one active at any given time - you essentially wasted your points to buy the second.

However, if you have two instances of Luck, you can roll Luck twice in a scene - you just won't have as many dice on a given roll as if you put everything into one instance of Luck.

Example: I have Luck 5. I boost a roll with that Luck, and may not do so again until the next scene.

Example: I have Luck 2 and Luck 3. I boost a roll with Luck 3, and then (later, in the same scene) I boost a roll with Luck 2.

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Alex Craft:
"Of course, you wouldn't be able to stack the two powers, but you wouldn't have to burn all your Luck on one roll, either."
Luck's duration is Perm, you roll once and only once per scene (presumably at the start although the ST might just wait until you do something with dice).

Let's say you get 2 succ. Those succ last for the scene. Every combat round you get to apply them as you wish (see page 206). If you aren't in combat then you get to apply them once every turn, minute, or whatever else the ST decides.

The rules don't really go into what would happen if you had multiple instances of Luck (and there's a reason for that).
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Luck gives you a number of die or successes for every success on a luck role. If you roll 2 then 3 die, you are limiting the number of possible successes. It is a matter of mathematical probability. The probability of getting a success on a single die roll is 40%. The probability of getting a single success with two die is 64%. The probability of getting a single success with three die is 78.4%.

With 5 die, the probability rises to 92.22% that there will be a single success.

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It doesn't boost "every single roll you make". You still have to choose, and choose wisely.

Alex Craft: I've always read Luck as boosting a single, specific roll, once per scene.

(Core BK, Pages 206-7) "Once per scene, a character may ask to roll his Luck. ... each success achieved influences ... event. ...

"Combat: ...the player may divide the successes hi gets for Luck in a given turn between his attack and his defense. ..."

"Abilities: Each Luck success adds one success (not one die) to any use of Abilities out of combat. If a character makes two or more Ability checks during the sames time frame (turn, minutes... [sT's choice]) ... he must divide his Luck successes amoung the different rolls...."

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I was rushed for that. Let's talk about "any single roll you make".

The book doesn't mention anything about power rolls. Or initiative rolls. Or Powermax stuff. And I don't see how you could spend willpower on luck since it isn't an action per see.

Further, getting enough to be useful costs 5 nova points. That's enough for 30 ability dots, and since abilities is mostly what Luck adds to, you are probably better off doing that since you'd skip the "rolling dice to roll dice mechanic" for attacks.

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Yeah - you're convincing me. Particularly with the 'during the same time frame' bit. Though the 'once per scene, a character may ask to roll his Luck' still seems to suggest the opposite.

I still am doubtful about its balance, though - yes, you could purchase dots with those np, but this a floating bonus we're talking about. It can be applied to many (if not all) rolls, and it'll be there almost all the time. Just one or two successes, usually, but it's a universal buff.

(And no, it doesn't mention power rolls, but it only describes the listed examples as 'guidelines' to show about how strong it should be. Given that it also says that it generically affects 'the outcome of other events,' it's not unlikely that it could affect powers. Or initiative. Or power maxing.)

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Alex Craft:Yeah - you're convincing me.

laughcool

Alex Craft:...the 'once per scene, a character may ask to roll his Luck' still seems to suggest the opposite.

That's just how lucky he is for the scene.

Alex Craft:I still am doubtful about its balance, though - yes, you could purchase dots with those np, but this a floating bonus we're talking about. It can be applied to many (if not all) rolls, and it'll be there almost all the time. Just one or two successes, usually, but it's a universal buff.

Basically Luck isn't all that point efficient for many if not most character concepts. Take your typical Brick. With all that soak he shouldn't be dodging much, but Luck is more for the defense and out of combat than the attack. It's almost useless for attack. 5 Dice of Luck, becomes 2 succ, becomes 2 dice, or 0.8 succ. Combine that with having to split your dice for multiple actions and you're better off having two extra dots in Martial Arts or whatever.

Luck is only really useful for someone who has a large number of skills and he already has 5's in his most important skills, combined with 5's in his relevent stats. And now we are talking about a truely large number of nova points. Remember that for the points you could get 5's in 3 skills (one point), and 12 attribute dots (4 points). If it is an either-or then most people (correctly) go for the stats.

Alex Craft:...it doesn't mention power rolls, but it only describes the listed examples as 'guidelines' to show about how strong it should be. Given that it also says that it generically affects 'the outcome of other events,' it's not unlikely that it could affect powers. Or initiative. Or power maxing.)

Don't read too much into it. Power rolls and the rest would be a HUGE oversight and would also be as unbalancing as you say before. The "general guidelines" allow for what they allow, and Luck is strong enough right there.

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Quote:
Further, getting enough to be useful costs 5 nova points. That's enough for 30 ability dots, and since abilities is mostly what Luck adds to, you are probably better off doing that since you'd skip the "rolling dice to roll dice mechanic" for attacks


It would not be beneficial to purchase luck at character creation, but only afterwards with experience, due to the increase in cost of increasing abilities.

Raising abilities with experience costs 2 x number of dots. Raising luck with experience costs 3x per dot. Therefore for an extra experience point cost per dot, you can add a possible success(s) to any ability that is necessary for use in any given scene.

To purchase all ability dots up to three after character creation would be a lot more expensive than to purchase luck up to five dots. With 33 experience, you could buy luck up to 5. To raise just 5 abilities to three dots will cost you 40 experience.
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Quote:
The White Rat:To purchase all ability dots up to three after character creation would be a lot more expensive than to purchase luck up to five dots. With 33 experience, you could buy luck up to 5. To raise just 5 abilities to three dots will cost you 40 experience.
That's another reason it doesn't come up much. Luck could, in theory, be purchased a lot cheaper than raising your abilities and attributes.

Of course, if you have 33 exp lying around, you're probably better off buying 5 Mega-Stats and a dot in Psi-Shield. They give roughly the same bonus in dice (5, 2, or 0.9 succ vs. 2 succ), but come with so much more and work more reliabily on top of that.

Compare the utility of 5 luck against 1 dot of Mega-Str, Mega-Dex, & Mega-Stamina the Mega's win hands down, and they are half the price as well.
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"That's just how lucky he is for the scene."

Then why don't you 'roll once per scene' or 'roll at the beginning of each scene' or something like that? It is phrased as if the player is rolling at a certain point in a scene, responding to some event or circumstance.

You're also thinking in terms of a combat specialist. Take a luck based character (like Alex, actually, or that one guy in the character creation example - Philip, I think). Yes, if you are a combatant, you should specialize. But if you're as flexible as the a character with a luck-based portfolio tends to be, a permanent floating buff to all abilities and backgrounds (assuming that this is all Luck can affect) is pretty extraordinary.

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April Rice: Then why don't you 'roll once per scene' or 'roll at the beginning of each scene' or something like that? It is phrased as if the player is rolling at a certain point in a scene, responding to some event or circumstance.

He is. The idea is that it would be hard on the ST to have to roll for him every scene, regardless of whether or not he does anything. This way the ST can wait for him to actually do something that involve luck before checking to see whether or not his luck is good.

April Rice: You're also thinking in terms of a combat specialist. Take a luck based character (like Alex, actually, or that one guy in the character creation example - Philip, I think). Yes, if you are a combatant, you should specialize. But if you're as flexible as the a character with a luck-based portfolio tends to be, a permanent floating buff to all abilities and backgrounds (assuming that this is all Luck can affect) is pretty extraordinary.

I don't know who "Alex" is so let's look at Philip. Yep, he'd be much stronger if we just dropped 5 luck on him.

But in actual character generation, there are trade offs. He's only 30 points, which 5 nova points do you want to cut to give him 5 Luck?

Will you increase his taint from 4 to 7?

Eliminate 2 Megas?

Lower his Quantum?

And Phil wasn't built all that well, even if you could find 5 nova points, he might be better off with a level of Armor (or flight so he can run away), 6 skills, and 5 backgrounds.

Which would you rather run, a really lucky character with out enhanced stats, or someone with +15 in Attributes? My combat machine would like to impress the girls, so 5's in Appearance and Charisma win out over luck hands down. A 5 in Wits gives him a +3 to Init which is a steal for one nova point, etc.

Luck can be strong, and most characters would like to have 5 luck, but it's not usually a "Must have", and we normally run out of nova points just buying those. This implies balance.

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  • 1 month later...

On the multiple stacking Force Fields, after thinking about it, I believe the following house rule fixes it while retaining character flexibility:

You can have multiple Force Fields. They stack. However, they are powered from your dice pool of Stam + Mega-Stam + total Force Field dots.

So whenever you activate a Force Field you have to decide how many of the dice to spend on it, and you will have less dice available to power any other Force Field.

You do get the quantum bonus several times, you are spending a lot of quantum and activations.

For example, you have Force Field 2, force field: Wall 3,and Stamina 5. Total dice pool 10. When you activate your normal Force Field you decide how many dice to spend on it, up to a maximum of 7. (Force Field 2 + stamina 5)

The remaining dice is what you can use if you then decide to activate Force Field: Wall.

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