Jump to content

Aberrant RPG - Force Field


Ammonites

Recommended Posts

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

With the Andy Vance example, I can see the reasoning behind having multiple, non-stacking Imperviouses. This does go against Dr. Troll's insistance that no one can buy the same power twice, with his classification of power as the name in the book regardless of extras.

Vance has three non-stacking versions of INV, and (as stated earlier) Invulnerability isn’t a power by itself so it would be easy to allow multiple versions.

Just like Quantum Bolt isn't a power by itself. It gets defined differently each time it is purchased. Non-stacking QBs are different powers.

,,

I might consider, however, stacking the damage dice of simultaneous attacks. If someone on fire is hit with a QB (unless it's ice or water), why not add the dice? Two people attacking at the same initiative working together?

Most of the damage from Mega-Strength comes from the nova’s Q-sig.

All Clones have the same Q-Sig.

Doctor Troll has M-Str 6 and Clone.

Someone getting hit by 3 Clones shouldn’t be taking 27[90] before soak (that’s well over a nuke). If Troll’s crew were doing that to Ironskin, none of them individually could scratch him so why would they be able to do it together?

You're talking about the equivalent of 3 M-STR 6 Novas working together. Of course they can do the damage of a nuke. Novas destroy cities, move mountains, cure diseases, change cultures. A really powerful Nova beating up a guy is not a stretch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 140
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Just like Quantum Bolt isn't a power by itself. It gets defined differently each time it is purchased. Non-stacking QBs are different powers.

I think I disagree with that. Quantum Bolt is Quantum Bolt. You define how it takes effect sure, but in the end it's the same power. If you can say that it's a different power because you define it as fire once and electricity the next, it's basically window dressing. You can define Pulse's forcefields the same way. It's not the same as different Invulnerabilities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Violette 'V' D'Aronique:
I think I disagree with that. Quantum Bolt is Quantum Bolt. You define how it takes effect sure, but in the end it's the same power. If you can say that it's a different power because you define it as fire once and electricity the next, it's basically window dressing. You can define Pulse's forcefields the same way. It's not the same as different Invulnerabilities.
I think you're over simplying the role that "energy type" plays in Quantum Bolt. Per the power description, the player needs to specify exactly just what kind of energy is being projected, be it fire, cold, electricity, or shards of white hot metal (in the case of Shrapnel). While this does a good job of giving us a good way of describing a character's power, it serves a more important mechanical function when you bring the different Invulnerabilities into play. Let's say we have nova A, a brick with four dots in Invulnerability: Fire. Now, if I'm a nova with Quantum Blast, just what energy type I picked during character creation plays a major role when I attack A. If I picked fire, then A gets twenty-four automatically added to her soak. If I picked electricity instead when I picked the power, then A is in a much more dangerous situation. That's not window dressing, that's a question of character survival.

I do agree that Quantum Blast doesn't have the same... uniqueness to it that the Invulnerabilities have, however it'd be inaccurate to say that the energy types are merely a matter of flavor when you consider all of the rules in context.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Violette 'V' D'Aronique:
I think I disagree with that. Quantum Bolt is Quantum Bolt. You define how it takes effect sure, but in the end it's the same power. If you can say that it's a different power because you define it as fire once and electricity the next, it's basically window dressing. You can define Pulse's forcefields the same way. It's not the same as different Invulnerabilities.
Actually, you can have several Q-Bolts, though all but one of them must have an Extra because as stated when an extra is added “it becomes a separate and distinct power”. So it is possible by the rules, but they still do not stack and you cannot have several q-bolt just by saying one is fire, one is sound and so on (which is exactly what you were saying).

It is theoretically possible to have different Invulnerabilities stack, though the maximum is 2 at a time and only in one specific instance (i.e. if one has the Broad Category extra and then other happens to fit into that Broad category as well.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Ouchfest:
Some offensive powers stack: Mega-STR + Claws get the autosuccesses + the extra Claws dice and turns bashing into lethal. Throw in Bodymorph: Stone and you get to add more dice of damage.
Those are different powers stacking and that is fine. Stacking an Arour with an Invulnerability and a FF is fine. The problem is allowing serveal of the same defensive power to stack such as 3 FFs.

A nova cannot stack their Q-Bolt: Aggrivated, Q-Bolt: Armour Pericing and Q-Bold: Superbolt (which is what it would take to even try to get through the same defensive power stacked.

Also, people can work together for more successes, such as with extended actions (making gadgets, constructing a building, research) which can be facilitated with the Mega-WIT enhancement Synergy. Different people's quantum powers wouldn't stack, though, unless Quantum Imprint was used so the signatures would be the same.


Exactly. And even IF that example were possible, it would take several novas and one with Q Imprint to try to get through the defenses of one nova with stacked FFs, Armours and so on.


I disagree that the game favors defenders. Mega-STR provides a number of automatic successes that rivals the same number of dots of any one defensive power (except Invulnerability: Kinetic, which is only a tiny bit better and costs more).


It is a hell of a lot harder to get close enough to punch your enemy than it is to hit them with a ranged attack (i.e. Q-bolt).

Defenders have to spend more xp and justify more powers to get a soak equivalent to attacks, and the attackers always get to roll a minimum of 1 die.



Yes, and you get your full soak value which is than subtracted from the attack’s damage pool (even taking any auto successes first). What is left is what he gets to roll, and generally, the damage done will about 40% of that. And yes, the attacker gets to roll one die. So he will always have a 40% chance of doing one point of damage.


Aggravated damage is very hard to defend against and recover from.


Invulnerability takes care of it, as well as the Hardbody Enhancement (available to anybody with M-Stm) and then you have the Impervious Extra which not only makes The Aggravated Extra impotent but Armour Piercing as well, essentially negating two offensive extras for one defensive extra.

Mental attacks bypass everything except psychic shield or Invulnerability: mental.


.. and are very rare and do not have the damage pools of powers like Q-Bolt.

And when it comes down to it, Super Indestructoman can be warped into the Sun or deep space, unlikely to return with his sanity.


And that his nothing to do with a damage vs. soak argument (and getting to the sun in one warp roll is pretty difficult).

To protect yourself from everything costs a tremendously prohibitive amount of XP, leaving one vulnerable for many years and ultimately not very useful for accomplishing anything.

Only if you are so paranoid you must protect yourself from everything before you go out into the world, which by default means you are even getting exp to use to buy all those powers you feel you need. Heh.

~Noir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Noir: Also, IF it is legal, then it is really amazing NONE of the dozens NPCs (alot of which are near the top on power level),even Ironskin Andy Vance, "the most indestructible nova", have stacking Armours, FFs and so on.

Divis too. More than 20 well developed powers, including the ability to give himself more powers, and he doesn't appear to have it.
Okay, now you're just being absurd. Please show me where Divas' powers are listed. Please show me where he has been shown to have only one forcefield. Please show me where they have given anything more than a very high level, non-specific description of his quantum abilities.




Fact is stacking force-fields isn't broken, in a TT game at least. Here, absolutely. But in a TT game you actually have a specific number of NP and exp points that you get. You spend 30 exp to have 3 dots of Forcefield:Impenetrable and 30 exp to have 3 dots of Forcefield:Wall then you've spent 60 exp you can't spend on other powers. It also costs you 6 quantum points versus 3 to keep the two of them going. That can get pretty expensive. And by keeping your dots in each low you leave yourself vulnerable to Disorient and Disrupt. It's a trade off. You are going to have a very invunerable character but he's not going to be able to do much else. Congratulations, you're a Hockey Puck.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just like Quantum Bolt isn't a power by itself. It gets defined differently each time it is purchased. Non-stacking QBs are different powers.

Really? I have five dots in Q-Bolt, Quantum, and Invulnerability. I’m facing a mitoid.

So… how even is the fight? Does it depend on who goes first or is it just a blow out?

A) If I Q-Bolt him, what will happen?

B) If I’m hit, what will happen?

The answer to “A” is “he dies”. The answer to “B” is “we have no idea”.

Same foe & Quantum, but now the only power I have is 5 dots of Elemental Anima. My techniques are “Movement, Blast, Sphere, Shield, and Storm”. So… what happens? What are my options?

Answer: We don’t know, without knowing which element we control we have no idea what the power does. If the Anima is “Air”, then we fly away and/or attack at a distance. If the Anima is Glass, Gold, Sand, or Fire then there had better be some around. If the Anima is Anti-Matter then we are probably powerless. We don’t need to know Hypermovement’s or Mega-Strength’s special effects. We flatly do for INV.

Now granted, Q-Bolt’s energy type isn’t just flavor, but the situations where it MUST be defined mostly involve people who have INV. INV on the other hand is totally undefined without a full definition.

It isn’t a difficult argument to say that INV: “A” is a different power than INV: “B”. Ditto Elemental Anima “Fire” & “TK”.

It isn’t a difficult argument to say having Q-Bolt “Fire” & Q-Bolt “TK” isn’t game breaking (although technically it’s probably not allowed, notice we don’t have any extras). The Extra: “Extra Energy Type” (which does force a character to choose which energy he is using) seems built for this.

It is very broken for a character to have and use Forcefield (no matter how it is defined) multiple times.

...however it'd be inaccurate to say that the energy types are merely a matter of flavor when you consider all of the rules in context.

You have a good example where it is very important what flavor of Q-Bolt is being used. However, it's only important because the other guy has INV. Without putting INV into the picture, mostly that Q-Bolt has defined theme or simply "how does he die?"

You're talking about the equivalent of 3 M-STR 6 Novas working together. Of course they can do the damage of a nuke. Novas destroy cities, move mountains, cure diseases, change cultures. A really powerful Nova beating up a guy is not a stretch.

No, they don’t do the damage of a nuke (roughly 100 dice). Normal human punch is 4 dice. 25 human punches does not a nuke make. Those Troll's do the damage of three hits by artillery. Vance can easily take three hits with artillery shells. He can’t take a nuke.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think this is a subject that needs to end with either;

  • It is not allowed here, or;
  • It is allowed here.

Followed by the reasons or justification. It is apparent there are more than 2 sides to this debate and none are in agreement. Sometime we need to just agree to disagree.

Anyone?....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
You have a good example where it is very important what flavor of Q-Bolt is being used. However, it's only important because the other guy has INV. Without putting INV into the picture, mostly that Q-Bolt has defined theme or simply "how does he die?"
Hey, which type of energy you pick for Quantum Bolt is just as important as the type of attack you choose for Invulnerability. Call it flavor, but that doesn't change the fact that it governs how the rules apply to the power in relevant situations. wink
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you set something on fire with QB (sonic)? Electrify a body of water with QB (ice shards)? The choice of material is pretty important, actually - you're not just firing a death ray, you're flinging around dangerous energy in large quantities, and that should have ramifications on your environment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by April Rice:
Can you set something on fire with QB (sonic)? Electrify a body of water with QB (ice shards)? The choice of material is pretty important, actually - you're not just firing a death ray, you're flinging around dangerous energy in large quantities, and that should have ramifications on your environment.
In theory yes, in practice I've yet to see it come up. I'm discounting the enviroment/building/street is hosed *this* way, but that's almost flavor.

All Q-Bolts are instant unless you have 4+ dots, an specific extra, or a powermax for the same. That makes it hard to use as a cigar lighter.

Every time I've seen real enviromental type issues come up it's been because someone was using Elemental Anima/Mastery. In theory Q-Conversion would also work but EA/EM is more common.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

But that example already existed with Andy Vance having multiple versions of Invulnerability and it still works in the framework of each type of soak being applied only once (like only one addition from Force Field, one from Invulnerability, one from Armor, etc). It's not a matter of a power being described differently, it's just a power being used as it was specifically laid out in the text.

Ida know, maybe I'm just bone tired still, ugh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then you would have six different powers, each a form of Quantum Vampire, and will have spent a metric assload of points doing so. Each activation of each version is a separate power use, with its own quantum cost; if you want to use all of them in the same round, you'll need to split your action six way (which means some tiny little die pools) and spend a whopping 12 quantum points (which will require you to have at least a 4th instar node).

That said, it would probably be more efficient to buy it three times, each one with the Multiple Traits Extra.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would having one verson of Q-vamp (Str) preclude you from having another Q-vamp (Stam).

It depends on how harsh your ST is. I've seen it allowed, and I've seen a real by the book guy rule "No".

Could you take both of them or would on have to have an extra for one of them?

There is an extra. You decide how to split your succ during power creation (say 50:50 between Str & Stam). I'm not sure what happens when your victim runs out of Stam.

...the talk that even then, we hadn't seen a canon character with the same power defined differently...

We've got three. Ironskin. Portman. Power Broker.

I'm inclined to call them the result of an optional rule rather than the rule itself. The rules are for PCs, and the NPCs mostly follow them as well, but sometimes they don't.

We have other examples of impossible characters, just because a cannon character can do it doesn't mean the PCs can. Three off hand examples are:

1) Q5 & Disintegration with an extra without flaws (AB:WWII).

2) Disin at Q4 (AB:Aberrants).

3) What's his name (Gabby?) in AB:WWI apparently erupted with Q6.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) While the stat section for Apocrypha doesn't list a weakness for his Disintegration (Sustained) power, the background text for the character hints rather strongly that said power is uncontrolled power with a range of Touch ("Even his attempts to administer last rites abandoned him, when his touch brought about nothing but slow death."). The uncontrolled factor aside, reducing a 4-dot Disintegration to a range of Touch would certainly be enough points of weakness to permit an Extra without raising the level of the power.

2) The only character in Exposé: Aberrant that lists Disintegration as a power is Detonator, who also is listed as having Q5.

3) Gabriel did not erupt with Q6. Per the book, he erupted in 2004; then, "By 2008, he had gained a Taint of 7 and a Quantum of 6."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, it's worth noting that Andy Vance has, in Worldwide Phase II a total of 9 dots spread around his various versions of the Invulnerability power:

Invulnerability (Mental Attacks) 4

Invulnerability (Cutting Attacks) 2

Invulnerability (Energy Attacks) 3 (Broad Category)

This pretty much puts to rest the theory that a very few people have espoused that different versions of a given power are subject to the "rule of five" as a group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Detonator's sheet gives us the Math for her creation. She paid for a Q of 4.

So with Apocrypha we use the flavor text to nerf him, and with Gabriel we totally ignore the flavor text?

Gabriel erupted with the power to manipulate life and make food so he could survive in the desert. The ONLY power he has which fits that description is Bio-Manip, which has a Q-Min of 6.

Apocrypha doesn't have a listed weakness. If you feel the need to edit his character sheet to make him legal (an idea which I support), then please do the same for Ironskin. Further up in this conversation I gave suggestions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, Ironskin fits the rules as described. Each instance of Invulnerability is a separate and distinct power, hence one would not aggregate all instances of Invulnerability to see if the informal "rule of five" found in all White Wolf games is violated. That would be like aggregating the total dots in Claws, Armor, and Dominate.

Apocrypha, Detonator, and Gabriel are classic and entirely expected examples of poor editing and White Wolf purposefully bending the rules to fit their story. However, the are exceptions, irregularities, aberrants (if you'll excuse the unintentional pun), and wholly distinguishable from correctly constructed characters (like Ironskin).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Detonator's sheet gives us the Math for her creation. She paid for a Q of 4.
I frankly don't give a damn what the math says; she's listed as having a Quantum rating of 5. Perhaps she had enough Flaws to buy three Quantum from freebee points.

Quote:
So with Apocrypha we use the flavor text to nerf him, and with Gabriel we totally ignore the flavor text?

Gabriel erupted with the power to manipulate life and make food so he could survive in the desert. The ONLY power he has which fits that description is Bio-Manip, which has a Q-Min of 6.
The background text makes it pretty damned clear that he got Q6 in 2008, four years after he erupted. For all you know, he might have initially had Weaknesses on Bio-Manip, and bought them off after reaching Q6. Or he might have had one or two of the Bio-Manip techniques as separate powers (making them Level 2, Q-min 5) for his first few years, and they weren't listed (as they would be pretty redundant with full-fledged Bio-Manip in hand). But in any event, the text is damned clear that he didn't have Q6 until 2008.

Quote:
Apocrypha doesn't have a listed weakness. If you feel the need to edit his character sheet to make him legal (an idea which I support), then please do the same for Ironskin. Further up in this conversation I gave suggestions.
This is, admittedly, the weakest argument. However, as White Wolf didn't bother to list Weaknesses for canon characters' powers anywhere but in the flavor text, it's what we're left to deal with. He's got Q5, he's got Disintegrate with an Extra, and the text makes a strong argument that it is limited to Touch.

Ironskin, on the other hand, has no such quandry; he's perfectly legal within the rules. The fact that you don't like the rules is your problem.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Thoughtwave: …The background text makes it pretty damned clear that he got Q6 in 2008, four years after he erupted. For all you know, he might have initially had Weaknesses on Bio-Manip, and bought them off after reaching Q6. Or he might have had one or two of the Bio-Manip techniques as separate powers (making them Level 2, Q-min 5) for his first few years, and they weren't listed (as they would be pretty redundant with full-fledged Bio-Manip in hand). But in any event, the text is damned clear that he didn't have Q6 until 2008.
No, the text is not “damned” anything (language).

And no, it is not clear he got Q6 in 2008. You yourself said the text stated he had "By 2008, he had gained a Taint of 7 and a Quantum of 6.". As memory serves, that text is referring to why Proteus had him removed from society. Their big problem was his taint, not his power. Meaning it was that 7th dot of taint that made them pull the hammer on him (presumably that would have been the “he goes insane” dot of taint). Note also that from the description he was extremely powerful BEFORE Proteus removed him… meaning that there is decent evidence that he’d had Q6 for a while.

Quote:
Thoughtwave:…For all you know, he might have initially had…
So basically he was allowed to re-write his character sheet after hitting Q6? That doesn’t sound very legal. By the way, we also don’t have any cannon rules for buying off weaknesses. If the power is without a range, the ST is perfectly within his rights to make you keep “no range”.

He’s a powerful NPC who erupted with powers over and above the PCs. Just like Pax and various others presumably erupted with more than 30 nova points. In case no one’s ever mentioned it, Life isn’t fair.

Quote:
Thoughtwave:Ironskin, on the other hand, has no such quandry; he's perfectly legal within the rules.
Great. So, he’s attacked by someone whose power crosses all three of his INV (flaming mental axe of doom). What EXACTLY do we do, and please refer to the page numbers for how you reach your conclusion. My plain reading of the rules would have him using all nine dots of INV (thus breaking the 5 dot limit).

Quote:
Harold 'Mythic' Anderson: Sorry, Ironskin fits the rules as described. Each instance of Invulnerability is a separate and distinct power
You are using as support the argument you are trying to prove. If we assume the conclusion then there is no reason to go any further.

As for them being separate, distinct (and legal), as Ironskin is written up it is perfectly possible that he will be able to bring all nine o his dots to bear against some (rare) attacks This is illegal on the face of it (5 dot limit).

Yes, it is possible to introduce house rules to deal with this problem (only applying one of them for example), but this misses the point that you are in this position to begin with because the original situation was illegal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're never going to get an official answer from White Wolf - which is what would be needed to put an end to this pedantic nonsense - as the stated position of the company is that they do not provide answers to rule questions except via Errata (of which no further will be forthcoming for Aberrant).

However, having spoken with a certain developer who had a hand in the Player's Guide and a few other Aberrant products, it is the opinion of said developer that one can indeed have multiple versions of a given power, each treated as a separate power, but that Soak provided by two or more versions of the same power does not stack. In other words, you can have both Force Field and Force Field (Wall) as two separate powers, but you cannot combine the Soak from the two against a single attack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
The White Rat: From my understanding, these are rules determined by a ST. In the absense of a ST, it would seem that Thoughtwave is correct. ...
Um, no. Not as a default.

Just to be clear: I'm not saying that errata doesn't make sense, or that I disagree with it. Nor am I saying it isn't better than what we have. If I were ST, I'd probably go with that if it came up.

But in the absense of errata, or an ST, we can't just pull some (admittedly better) errata out of the air. This is especially true when said errata isn't written down anywhere.

If we stay with what the book actually says, then what we have is only one instance and we also have three existing NPCs (Portman, Power Broker, & Ironskin) that aren't legal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Quote:
Harold 'Mythic' Anderson: Sorry, Ironskin fits the rules as described. Each instance of Invulnerability is a separate and distinct power…
You are using as support the argument you are trying to prove. If we assume the conclusion then there is no reason to go any further.

As for them being separate, distinct (and legal), as Ironskin is written up it is perfectly possible that he will be able to bring all nine o his dots to bear against some (rare) attacks This is illegal on the face of it (5 dot limit).

Yes, it is possible to introduce house rules to deal with this problem (only applying one of them for example), but this misses the point that you are in this position to begin with because the original situation was illegal.
If you want to use the term "begging the question," go right ahead: I do know its original and true meaning. :P

Regardless, Vance is one example of powers with the same name but having different expressions (like Absorption, Bodymorph, Elemental Anima, Elemental Mastery, Immolate, Invulnerability, Quantum Blast, and Quantum Conversion off the top of my head). He's not a crux to the argument, he's just an example that's been used primarily here.

Also, the situation you're describing where Vance can stack his Invulnerabilities seems to be ignoring some of the rules behind powers. All damage in the game is divided up into three general categories: physical, energy, and mental. Vance has an Invulnerability for all three. So, to use your flaming mental axe of DOOM (sorry, couldn't resist the reference to Asche's game shocked ), you would have three distinct sources of damage: physical damage from the blade of the axe, energy damage from the flames, and mental damage from the mental thingie. When it comes to resolving the total damage of the attack, each of Vance's invulnerabilities would only apply to their applicable sources of damage. To use an example from a book, the space-based weapon from Phase II had its damage values divided up between different sources of damage. This isn't some kind of house rule, this is common sense being applied to a plain reading of the rules in their totality.

If you really want to get into the semantics or closely scrutinize of all of the rules then I think you're taking this too seriously. I spend enough of my life buried in statutes, rules, regulations, canons, and constitutions to gain any real pleasure from applying statutory analysis and author's intent to a role playing game to simply show how one particular reading is supported when common sense already provides the support needed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Harold 'Mythic' Anderson:...the situation you're describing where Vance can stack his Invulnerabilities seems to be ignoring some of the rules behind powers. All damage in the game is divided up into three general categories: physical, energy, and mental. Vance has an Invulnerability for all three.
Unfortunately, No, he does not. It is possible to argue that his INV: Mental and the other two will never overlap (this is also true for Portman and Power Broker). But Ironskin's other two INVs are "Cutting Attacks" and "Energy". There is room for overlap with those two. Supersharp forcefields for example (or the flaming axe).

Quote:
Thoughtwave: OK, much to my surprise, I received an e-mail from Conrad Hubbard at White Wolf that he would try to answer my question or find an appropriate developer who could. So it is possible that we might get an official ruling on this thing at long last.
Impressive. laugh Very Impressive. Good work.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Unfortunately, No, he does not. It is possible to argue that his INV: Mental and the other two will never overlap (this is also true for Portman and Power Broker). But Ironskin's other two INVs are "Cutting Attacks" and "Energy". There is room for overlap with those two. Supersharp forcefields for example (or the flaming axe).
Apologies, but both Invulnerability and Absorption clearly divide up all damage into two sort of forms. One could argue that Shrapnel's Quantum Blast (super heated metal shards) constitutes both an energy (heat) and physical (the shards themselves) attack, but common sense, the outline of the physical/energy dichotomy of the game, and general simplicity would dictate that the attack must be treated solely either as a physical or energy attack. Applying that same logic to the force field example, that damage needs to be determined to be either energy or physical.

See? Simple and it doesn't require hours of analysis to get to it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, you guys sure do like to talk. I'll admit that since I've been reading this thread that all of you have made very sound arguments (and very forthright attacks on each other). I'm not even really going to touch the argument to much; at this point it's pointless to debate it any further. Every thinks they're right.

What I was going to add is that sitting around trying to figure out ways to breach the NPCs defenses is kind of pointless, they're NPCs and if any of you have been playing RPGs for any length of time you should all know... all uber NPCs are broken. In my games I never use NPC stats; the game is about the PCs, not the NPCs. If a fight breaks out though I keep in mind one simple rule for the sake of understanding: Every one can be defeated, there is always away. The Ironskin guy (I don't even know who he is, and frankly don't care) if he is Invulnerable to "Cutting Attacks" beat him with a lamp post, a rock, a bowling ball... these are blunt. Drown him... unless he has adaptability he still needs air.

As for getting around this NPCs Invulnerability, why bother with cannon... the ST has the final say, and the STs decision should not be up for debate. We had a PC in our game with Inv (physical) 4, Inv (energy) 4, and Inv (mental) 3 and he had no dots in mega-stamina. So, an NPC treehugger used "Poison" and his 5 dots in bioengineering to concoct a virus that when inhaled would destroy him from the inside out. I was expecting quite the argument from him, but all he said was "Damn... didn't think of that." He never lived to spend his exp on Inv (viral)... =/

There is always a way, build a better mouse trap and some PC will try building a better mouse.

~Revenant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Harold 'Mythic' Anderson:
...attack must be treated solely either as a physical or energy attack.
You know you didn't address what I said at all?

Troll: It is possible for cutting attacks to also be energy attacks.

Mythic: All attacks have to be energy or physical.

So, yes, you are correct. All attacks have to be energy or physical. The problem is Ironskin doesn't have INV to "physical". He has INV to "cutting".

If Flame-Dude has quantum construct and creates a knife made of fire, that would be both. If you prefer a real life examples, there are surgical laser "scalples" which cut by burning.

In both cases, INV:Physical wouldn't help you but INV:Cutting does. If he had INV:Physical Cutting, then there would be no potential for overlap. He doesn't, so there is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whoops, in my haste I forgot to clarify something: Invulnerability to Cutting Attacks would be a weaker subset to Physical Attacks. Again with a common sense look, the Cutting Attacks classification comes from Vance's rather brutal eruption and would reflect a narrow resistance to things like knives, swords, broken bottles, or axes. In some ways, it's analogous to the Slashing category of weapons from Dungeons and Dragons.

Hence, I'm placing Cutting Attacks as a narrow category under the broad category of Physical Attacks (much like how Fire Attacks would be a subset of Energy Attacks).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Troll, you're being obtuse. Physical Attacks fall under the same category as Kinetic Attacks for Absorption and, IIRC, bladed weapons are specifically enumerated in the example provided for Kinetic Attacks. This isn't some complex twist and turn nor something created wholly from smoke; it's a simple application of the rules. Rather, it could be considered a plain reading of what's been done.

If you want to get more detail orientated, there wasn't a single person at Vance's eruption that could've done energy-based cutting damage to him, meaning all of the damage done to him was physical, hence such specified expressions of his powers regarding solely combat damage would clearly fall under the Physical/Kinetic umbrella.

And if you'd treat a sharpened Force Field as an Energy (and not Physical) attack then go for it; there's a clear argument for both ways. Just as long as it's consistent. wink

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Harold 'Mythic' Anderson:
Troll, you're being obtuse. Physical Attacks fall under the same category as Kinetic Attacks for Absorption and, IIRC, bladed weapons are specifically enumerated in the example provided for Kinetic Attacks.
I’m being obtuse? Once again, you’ve totally ignored what I’ve actually said in favor of focusing on something else (physical vs. energy) where there is no dissent. Nor did I ever say that bladed weapons aren’t cutting attacks.

Please read my actual words this time: Not all cutting attacks are physical.

Physical or Energy attacks are the type of ATTACK.
Cutting is a type of DAMAGE.

I’ll give examples again.

1) In RL, Lasers are used as cutting tools.
2) A knife created as a quantum construct out of fire (or Green Lantern’s ring if you prefer).

The vast majority of attacks which cause cutting damage are physical in nature. But not all, even in RL. If a surgeon screws up and with a laser scalpel and cuts in the wrong place, that’s something that needs to be treated as a cut, not a burn.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having gotten permission, I'm going to repost the linked post.

Quote:
ProfPotts,Sep 28 2005, 01:01 PM]

Okay, since it seems popular, I've taken a close look at the 'multiple versions of the same power' issue. Here's what I've concluded:

1. Characters can buy up to 5 or their Quantum rating dots in a power, whichever is greater. ('Trait Ratings' p.106 - 107, 'Power: General Rules' p.178, 'Like Nothing Seen Before: New Powers, New Extras' APG p.108)

2. Buying more dots in a power cost a number of XP based on the amount of dots the character already has in that power. ('Experience Costs' p.124)

However, it also seems true that:

3. Within the framework of rules 1 & 2 above, characters can take different versions of the same power.

The evidence for this comes from a couple of places:

"Ironskin" Andy Vance's stat' block (Storyteller's Screen p.55 - 56) where he has 'Invulnerability (mental attacks 3, cutting attacks 2)

Randel Portman's stat' block (Worldwide Phase 1 p.38 - 39) where he has 'Absorption (Energy) 4 (Energy Magnet), Absorption (Kinetic) 1'

In both cases neither character violates the '5 dots in any one power' rule. The only place this is violated seems to be:

"Ironskin" Andy Vance's new stat' block (Worldwide Phase 2, p.136 - 137) where he has 'Invulnerability (Mental Attacks) 4, Invulnerability (Cutting Attacks) 2, Invulnerability (Energy Attacks) 3 (Broad Cateogory).

On the other hand, the book (Worldwide Phase 2) also gives us:

Henry "The Bomber" Maybaker's stat block (p.138) with 'Disintigration 3 (Range) - despite the fact that he only has a Quantum of 5 & therefore can't take an Extra on a level 3 power, & the fact that Disintigration already has a range so the Range Extra is totally pointless.

And...

Tenebrae's stat' block (p.26) with a dot of Clone (a level 3, Quantum minimum 5 power) taken as part of a (level 2, Quantum minimum 3) Bodymorph for a character with a Quantum of only 4.

So I think we can safely say that either WW presented several characters in that book who were 'the exceptions which proved the rule' or that their proof-reading for Phase 2 was non-existant. Either way, it's doubtful that such examples should be taken as dictating a general rule.

So - how does it all work?

Well, as far as I can tell, something like this:

Thermo has Bodymorph (Fire) 3 & wants to develop the power to turn into ice. For this he gets to buy Bodymorph (Ice) 1, but it costs him 15 XP, not 6. Why? Because he's taking a forth dot in Bodymorph, not his first dot.

Now Thermo can turn into either fire (with his 3 dots worth of power) or ice (with his 1 dot worth of power). He can't turn into both at once because Bodymorph isn't a suite power ('Multiple Actions' p.180), but he could switch from one to the other during the time he maintains the power without additional QP cost - he's paid the cost to turn on his 4 dots of Bodymorph after all.

This means that Thermo has less raw power than a guy with just Bodymorph (Fire) 4, but more versitility.

If Thermo later buys another dot of Bodymorph - either to get his Fire Bodymorph to 4, his Ice Bodymorph to 2, or to take a third option at 1 dot, he can then buy no more dots in any of his Bodymorphs (unless his Quantum rating goes above 5) because he's hit the rules limit of 5 dots in that power.

Or...

Arsenal has the power to pull a variety of weapons from his jacket at any time. He can't pass them on to others (they're just manifestations of his powers & too many late nights watching John Woo films), & they rarely run short of ammo' (fueled by QP).

To simulate this talent Arsenal takes the Quantum Bolt power. He buys 5 dots, each with an Extra, but wants a variety of different effects, so splits them as follows:

Quantum Bolt 1 (Explosion) [Grenade]

Quantum Bolt 1 (Increased Range) [sniper Rifle]

Quantum Bolt 1 (Armour Piercing) [Magnum Revolver]

Quantum Bolt 1 (MIRV) [Paired 9mm Pistols]

Quantum Bolt 1 (Spray / Jet) [submachinegun]

If he buys this power at chargen it costs him the usual 25 Nova Points (minus any Taint-related deductions he has). If he buys it from scratch with XP it costs him 9 + 7 + 14 + 21 + 28 = 79 XP.

Each of Arsenal's 'weapons' does Lethal damage (John Woo fan remember?) & he only has the Quantum minimum of 1. Each weapon inflicts 4[2]L damage, but each has it's own Extra. If he'd taken just a normal 5-dot Quantum Bolt he'd have a single attack which did 20[2]L but only have the one Extra every time. Again, Arsenal has traded raw power for versitility. He can't ever add any more dots of Quantum Bolt to any of his 'weapons', or take another Quantum Bolt-based 'weapon' (unless he works his Quantum rating up to 6), since he already has 5 dots in Quantum Bolt.

To me this makes a lot of sense - it's within the boundries of the rules, & allows versitility if the character concept really calls for it. On the other hand, it limits power-gaming & the min-max crowd as well.

So, Soak Master can't buy Armour 5 [tough skin] as well as Armour 5 [energy field], but he could, if he wanted buy Armour 5 [tough skin 2, energy field 3] if he really wanted both special effects.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...