Jump to content

Aberrant RPG - Aberrant goes d20...


Isac Larousse

Recommended Posts

Thanks for keeping us up to date on the news and rumors, both from what you've posted here and what you do on your site.

The logo is a little too small for me to give it my stamp of approval. I'm glad that it has something, but I'm not sure that this is what I would have wanted.

The other obvious thing with the image is that it shows that they are re-using the previous artwork. I wonder how much of the old artwork will be used in the new books, and if they are re-using artwork, how much of the text will be the same or at least reworked older material? On the one hand, I hope that WW can do what they need to keep costs down, so that the books will turn a proffit, but on the other if the books are too much like the previous incarnations I don't know that the older fans will approve. We are a fickle bunch.

I've talked to a good deal of people about what they wanted to see happen with the new incarnations of the Trinity Universe games, and I'm interested in hearing what other's views on it are. How close do you think the d20 version should stay to the Storyteller world?

I, like most people that I've talked to, feel that the strength of the games are in their setting and not in their rules, so any changes to the setting could influence my opinion of the game greater than the rules change. I know that they are reworking some material to make the games work together better, but at this point in time no one knows that that entails. Trinity is picking up where it left of, and Adventure really didn't go very far with it only having 1 book released. But since they are restarting Aberrant back at 2008, I can see a huge uproar about how it will be handled. If we see any more releases, will KB's books still happen in this timeline or will it go in a completely alternate direction? Which would you prefer?

When playing the new d20 versions, are people going to convert their existing games to d20 or start new games?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 96
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I've never had a lot of luck converting one game to another. I've usually finished one, then begun the next with a fresh start. Not to say that a new start might not include ideas from the previous game - I've used NPC's and settings from one to the next, each time making changes to some areas, while allowing for continuity from one to the next.

Stonewall

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex Craft:
They've pretty much said that the core books wouldn't be in both systems. Later, if the d20 stuff sells, they'll try to dual-stat supplements.

They claim to have unified the storylines more, which should be cool.
And for these two reasons I will be buying the new stuff. I will not be using D20, but to have new material I'll gradly support the line.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
Quote:
Originally posted by Paris:
I gotta say - i really don't like this idea. 3rd ed. is much better than previous versions of D&D, but it still kinda sucks. (In my humble opinion.)

I know d20 is making a lot of money as a simple system for beginner players, but i'll not like seeing the Trinity Universe get slapped with a downgraded system for the sake of a few bucks. Of course, I suppose the lines did die out because nobody was buying, so this may be the only way to see them get resurrected.

I still don't like it.
I agree mad

"Oh, I went up a level so now I can do something that I have never worked on or even care that my character can do." Please!

I thought that RPGs had evolved beyond that once they went to a Point Based system. Characters are built around concepts not levels.

I also feel like game companies are selling out. I don't mind if they co-publish d20 books, like Guardians Of Order has, in fact I like the that you can download a free copy of their d20 rules. They reasoning (which I agree with) is that it will promote play in any of their other systems.

I purchased the hardcopy of the free download after reading it (I have done that plenty of times, yes I agree with filesharing, to me it is free advertizing for companies, shortsighted companies that can't see that aren't worthy of being in business in the Information Age).
http://www.guardiansorder.com/downloads/

I am not sure that I will buy any of the d20 Aberrant products since they will not cross over. I doubt that WW will do the same thing that Guardians Of Order has done and produce a free cross-over guide. They have never even produced a free Errata for all the mistakes in their material. You had to purchase the players guide to get most of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I have trouble wrapping my noggin around some of the anti-d20 arguments I've seen. I remember Ronin making a remark about 'hit points' and all I could see when I looked at the Aberrant character sheet was Health Levels. A lot like hitpoints there. Something does damage and you lose them. Lose them all and you die.

Same with 'levels' and 'concepts not levels'.

You don't have levels? I guess not. But, really, when you get experience points and you spend them, well, you can now do something you couldn't do before. You don't get your QBolt in dribs and drabs. You either have it or you don't, depending on if you've purchased it or not. Same thing happens when you level. As a Monk of X level you don't have Abundant Step, X+1 and you have it. The wording is different, and some minor concepts, I'll concede that. But in general there isn't a whole hell of a lot of difference.

I've always seen the difference as mainly being thematic. D20 is all about rules. Rules about how much you can lift, how much each individual goodie costs, what order you can do things in. The ST system is a lot more organic in flow. Talk it over with your ST, and work from there. That's a pretty huge difference, and one I can see being a dividing point between ST and D20 camps. But sometimes these specific complaints seem like more of an attempt to make the difference even larger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
You don't get your QBolt in dribs and drabs. You either have it or you don't, depending on if you've purchased it or not. Same thing happens when you level. As a Monk of X level you don't have Abundant Step, X+1 and you have it. The wording is different, and some minor concepts, I'll concede that. But in general there isn't a whole hell of a lot of difference.
I can see the way that they will do this. You will be able to play a "Brick" Prestige Class character. As the level increases, the character's Strength, Armor, and Constitution will increase.

"Cool! I am 5rd Level now so my Armor will be enough to stop bullets. Never mind that I have not been hit by anything to justify my Armor increasing. I have been wearing body armor up until now to stay alive."

If they do the d20 system like Mutants & Masterminds. They use a d20 system, and points.
http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/

There are levels that dictate the maximum skill you can have with a power, similar to a Nova's Quantum Level. Experience can only be spent on skills and powers a character works on - whether it is in game play or practice.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I play Mutants and Masterminds, I'm the local trumpet for it. I love Mutants and Masterminds.

But I don't remember anything in Aberrant saying you have to get shot in order to purchase more armor. I don't remember anything saying that if you've been nailed by something you can adapt to it either. I thought the idea was an eruption concept, a concept like Brick. You increase your Brick abilities. You don't suddenly go, "You know, I'm tired of fighting these flying motherfuckers, I'm going to purchase flight myself." At least that was my take on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
I play Mutants and Masterminds, I'm the local trumpet for it. I love Mutants and Masterminds.

But I don't remember anything in Aberrant saying you have to get shot in order to purchase more armor. I don't remember anything saying that if you've been nailed by something you can adapt to it either. I thought the idea was an eruption concept, a concept like Brick. You increase your Brick abilities. You don't suddenly go, "You know, I'm tired of fighting these flying (deleted), I'm going to purchase flight myself." At least that was my take on it.
Please re-read pages 96-101 Aberrant Players Guide.

Under Maxing Out "If you successfully max out a power, you can gain one experience point to use specifically for improving that power."

I am not sure if you have ever done any bodybuilding or some other progressive sport that you could track. I have and I can tell you that if you do not push on occasions you do not increase in strength.

A logical progression of that for Armor would be a need for more Armor. You would have a need for more Armor if you get hit. Kind of like you can build up the toughness of your body by getting hit. Sound strange? Fairly standard Martial Arts training technique.

This is Post-Erruption improvement. Let's say you have a Brick that has Mega-Strength and he really is tired of flying opponents. He does not have Quantum Leap as an Enhancement. He decides to Max out his Mega-Strength (this is where a good ST would have to agree beforehand since the rule is for powers, but makes sense for Mega-Attributes as well) and gets 2 successes. He surprises the Flying Nova and leaps up to smack the grin off his face. The ST says that he can have an xp for Quantum Leap.

The player may elect to ask the ST to allow him to place the points toward Flight instead of Quantum Leap.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie:
Please re-read pages 96-101 Aberrant Players Guide.

Under Maxing Out "If you successfully max out a power, you can gain one experience point to use specifically for improving that power."
That happens to be an explicitly optional rule. I certainly have never used it. At any rate, you can only do this once with each power per story, so the rest of those XPs are certainly unmarked in this fashion.

Quote:
I am not sure if you have ever done any bodybuilding or some other progressive sport that you could track. I have and I can tell you that if you do not push on occasions you do not increase in strength.
That said, you're assuming that Quantum Powers are exercised in the same way a muscle group is. I think that's an arbitrary assumption, and not one that's completely supported by the books. Quantum Powers may develop based on a person's understanding of them, as opposed to the raw power of any given use. Instead of working out, instead you're learning how, exactly, those muscles work.

Quote:
This is Post-Erruption improvement. Let's say you have a Brick that has Mega-Strength and he really is tired of flying opponents. He does not have Quantum Leap as an Enhancement. He decides to Max out his Mega-Strength (this is where a good ST would have to agree beforehand since the rule is for powers, but makes sense for Mega-Attributes as well) and gets 2 successes. He surprises the Flying Nova and leaps up to smack the grin off his face. The ST says that he can have an xp for Quantum Leap.

The player may elect to ask the ST to allow him to place the points toward Flight instead of Quantum Leap.
But what about the really weird stuff? What about a Cyberkinetic who wants to develop a Quantum Blast based on hostile transmission of data? Or a Clone-monkey who wants to develop Abberation Transfer? Or even a Brick who wants to Teleport?

These, as a general rule, are leaps which can be connected thematically (for a given concept), but don't have any real path towards development. A cyberkinetic has no real path that will allow him to turn his cyberkinesis into a deadly attack, same for the other two. However, I don't think that that should mean that he can never get that power. If he can describe how it fits into his theme, I think that the XP should be able to be spent. The power exists, in his mind, although he may not know that he has it until he uses it in an uncontrolled fashion for the first time

The Node is not a muscle. By extension, Quantum Powers do not necessarily relate to Strength. As such, sudden development of Quantum Powers seems perfectly logical to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirby1024:
Quote:
That happens to be an explicitly optional rule. I certainly have never used it. At any rate, you can only do this once with each power per story, so the rest of those XPs are certainly unmarked in this fashion.
True. Most of the ST seems to be optional though. Note p.126 Aberrent Main Book, under Increasing Quantum and Quantum Pool, "As always, the ST has final say as to whether spending experience points in this area has been justified in the game."
Quote:
That said, you're assuming that Quantum Powers are exercised in the same way a muscle group is. I think that's an arbitrary assumption, and not one that's completely supported by the books. Quantum Powers may develop based on a person's understanding of them, as opposed to the raw power of any given use. Instead of working out, instead you're learning how, exactly, those muscles work.
Perhaps you are not familar with Aberrant:Elites p.12-13 "Anna DeVries believes the key to having the best nova elites in the world is constant training to help her novas imporve their abilities and develop new ones." I only give weight training as an example. Perhaps the simplest there is. I also ran long distance in the US Army. I did not start out running 15 miles without stopping. I had to work up to it. Just like Quantum Powers and Attributes need to be worked on.

Quote:
But what about the really weird stuff? What about a Cyberkinetic who wants to develop a Quantum Blast based on hostile transmission of data? Or a Clone-monkey who wants to develop Abberation Transfer? Or even a Brick who wants to Teleport?
Why couldn't a Brick develop Teleport? He knows he is about to take a death blow and so he tells the ST that he will Max his Armor to attempt to survive. He makes say, 4 successes and the ST rules that he Teleports out of harms way. The best way to not get hurt is to avoid a blow.

Quote:
These, as a general rule, are leaps which can be connected thematically (for a given concept), but don't have any real path towards development. A cyberkinetic has no real path that will allow him to turn his cyberkinesis into a deadly attack, same for the other two. However, I don't think that that should mean that he can never get that power. If he can describe how it fits into his theme, I think that the XP should be able to be spent. The power exists, in his mind, although he may not know that he has it until he uses it in an uncontrolled fashion for the first time.
Again I only used a simple example. In Quantum Physics, all Time/Space/Matter/Energy is connected. Simple experiments have shown that we can affect one photon which can make changes in another photon that is distant. Once we learn to affect higher Quantum states we will accomplish what will look like magic. This is what a Nova can do on an intuitive level. It is up to the player and the ST to work out the connection in the growth of the character as always. Unlike the d20 system, which has a prescribed path for characters.[/QB]
Quote:
The Node is not a muscle. By extension, Quantum Powers do not necessarily relate to Strength. As such, sudden development of Quantum Powers seems perfectly logical to me.
My Aberrant:Teragen is on it's way, however, I do distinctly remember reading in there that the Node Background can be increased.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest thing you are going to find in the Storyteller system is that different ST's handle things in different ways.

I've heard of ST's only letting you have a starting power at 1 or 2 dots.

I have heard of ST's not letting characters develop any old power they wanted, some who wanted a logical explaination, and some who didnt' give a damn.

I've know ST's who gave out 1 or 2 xp a session, while another would give out xp based on time-in-game.

I've been in a game were the ST gave out points for keeping a personal journal of your exploits, and your "regular" life.

Hell, I've known an ST who gave out "dots" in things instead of xp.

The StoryTeller System's greatest strength and weakness is the weight of responsibility a ST has.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie:
Perhaps you are not familar with Aberrant:Elites p.12-13 "Anna DeVries believes the key to having the best nova elites in the world is constant training to help her novas imporve their abilities and develop new ones." I only give weight training as an example. Perhaps the simplest there is. I also ran long distance in the US Army. I did not start out running 15 miles without stopping. I had to work up to it. Just like Quantum Powers and Attributes need to be worked on.
Number one, Anna De Vries believes this is the case. It's entirely possible that her faith in training is misguided. It's also possible that constant training allows a nova to explore their powers more easily.

And I reiterate, it's not essential to think of Quantum Powers as a physical part of the body that can be physically worked out. In that paradigm, yes, what you are saying makes sense, but that is not the only paradigm that can be used to justify XP expenditure.

Quote:
Why couldn't a Brick develop Teleport? He knows he is about to take a death blow and so he tells the ST that he will Max his Armor to attempt to survive. He makes say, 4 successes and the ST rules that he Teleports out of harms way. The best way to not get hurt is to avoid a blow.


Quote:
Again I only used a simple example. In Quantum Physics, all Time/Space/Matter/Energy is connected. Simple experiments have shown that we can affect one photon which can make changes in another photon that is distant. Once we learn to affect higher Quantum states we will accomplish what will look like magic. This is what a Nova can do on an intuitive level.
If you use that kind of approach, then your effectively saying "hey, take whatever you like!", and the whole training thing is just a waste of time, QPs, and a possible accumulation of Taint, for literally zero extra benefit. If by training, you can justify literally anything (because you can if you think hard enough), then saying that it has to be a "logical outgrowth of their abilities" means absolutely nothing!

Quote:
It is up to the player and the ST to work out the connection in the growth of the character as always. Unlike the d20 system, which has a prescribed path for characters.
And I cry out (one again) that d20 has no such thing. Dungeons and Dragons 3.x has such prescribed paths, but this is not essential for a d20 game. Take Mutants and Masterminds as an excellent example of a d20 game without levels. And hey! who says you cannot keep the logical level progression, but have people choose precisely what happens at each level? It's your game, after all. Levels merely simulate the fact that as characters gain experience, they get stronger. It's exactly the same as Point-buy.

The idea of Levels is not necessarily restrictive, and at any rate, D&D used Feats, Skills and Spells to allow a player to break from the general stereotypical mould, and even in setting where Spells don't exist, Skills and Feats still give more than enough potential for more interesting character concepts.

Quote:
My Aberrant:Teragen is on it's way, however, I do distinctly remember reading in there that the Node Background can be increased.
Of course it can. Never said it couldn't. I just said it doesn't have to be trained and worked out in order to do so. And some novas, like one of my characters, Sydney Holland, have no biological Node to exercise, anyway. Would you deny them the possibility of improving their Node, simply because they have no way in which to improve a given part of their body? Sydney certainly cannot, being a hologram, and having no muscle groups to exercise.

A nova could justify an increase in Node by saying that a massive psychological trauma was made manifest by removing literally all constraints they ever had on channelling Quantum energies. The Node doesn't necessarily grow, but it effectively opens the floodgate of quantum energy, without constant exercise.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Kirby1024:

Quote:

And I reiterate, it's not essential to think of Quantum Powers as a physical part of the body that can be physically worked out. In that paradigm, yes, what you are saying makes sense, but that is not the only paradigm that can be used to justify XP expenditure.

I can train my mind and there is not a "physical workout". Still I am developing my mind (not a muscle). I am training none the less.

Originally posted by Charlie:

Quote:

Again I only used a simple example. In Quantum Physics, all Time/Space/Matter/Energy is connected. Simple experiments have shown that we can affect one photon which can make changes in another photon that is distant. Once we learn to affect higher Quantum states we will accomplish what will look like magic. This is what a Nova can do on an intuitive level.

Originally posted by Kirby1024:

Quote:

If you use that kind of approach, then your effectively saying "hey, take whatever you like!", and the whole training thing is just a waste of time, QPs, and a possible accumulation of Taint, for literally zero extra benefit. If by training, you can justify literally anything (because you can if you think hard enough), then saying that it has to be a "logical outgrowth of their abilities" means absolutely nothing!

I am not saying that it HAS TO BE A LOGICAL OUTGROWTH. I am saying that it is not as much of a stretch as you might think since all things are connected. Training might still be required...or it may not. A charcater could take a Quantum Leap in their evolution. They did not just pull that expression out of the air. It does have meaning.

"quantum leap

n.

An abrupt change or step, especially in method, information, or knowledge: “War was going to take a quantum leap; it would never be the same” (Garry Wills)."

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Yes - a character could slowy work out and maybe see results (player declare that they are using their xps for x ability). Yes - a character could also see a sudden increase in capabilities (players saves up their xps).

Originally posted by Charlie:

Quote:
It is up to the player and the ST to work out the connection in the growth of the character as always. Unlike the d20 system, which has a prescribed path for characters.
Originally posted by Kirby1024:

Quote:

And I cry out (one again) that d20 has no such thing. Dungeons and Dragons 3.x has such prescribed paths, but this is not essential for a d20 game. Take Mutants and Masterminds as an excellent example of a d20 game without levels. And hey! who says you cannot keep the logical level progression, but have people choose precisely what happens at each level? It's your game, after all. Levels merely simulate the fact that as characters gain experience, they get stronger. It's exactly the same as Point-buy.

The idea of Levels is not necessarily restrictive, and at any rate, D&D used Feats, Skills and Spells to allow a player to break from the general stereotypical mould, and even in setting where Spells don't exist, Skills and Feats still give more than enough potential for more interesting character concepts.

Ummm...maybe you should refer back up the page to a previous posting of mine. I mentioned it in my original post on this subject that if they did this like Mutants & Masterminds that it might, just might work. A little less emotion, a lot slower reading. You might not have as much reason to cry out.

Originally posted by Charlie:

Quote:
,,

My Aberrant:Teragen is on it's way, however, I do distinctly remember reading in there that the Node Background can be increased.

Originally posted by Kirby1024:

Quote:

Of course it can. Never said it couldn't. I just said it doesn't have to be trained and worked out in order to do so. And some novas, like one of my characters, Sydney Holland, have no biological Node to exercise, anyway. Would you deny them the possibility of improving their Node, simply because they have no way in which to improve a given part of their body? Sydney certainly cannot, being a hologram, and having no muscle groups to exercise.

A nova could justify an increase in Node by saying that a massive psychological trauma was made manifest by removing literally all constraints they ever had on channelling Quantum energies. The Node doesn't necessarily grow, but it effectively opens the floodgate of quantum energy, without constant exercise.

Originally posted by Kirby1024:

Quote:

The Node is not a muscle. By extension, Quantum Powers do not necessarily relate to Strength. As such, sudden development of Quantum Powers seems perfectly logical to me.

Actually you did say that in a previous post.

You need to stop speed reading this post. I have been playing RPGs with levels since before you were born. I have seen just about every type system you can think of. I believe I have even been playing the ST for over, (gasp) 16 years (my youngest was not born before I started playing Vampire). Since they first came out with the system. It has changed a bit.

I want you to go back, take a deep breath, clear your mind of preconceptions, and re-read what I have said. I used simple examples to illustrate my points. Don't read too much into them and don't take this personal. I have read many of your posts and I am impressed with what you have said. I belive though you have a very emotional tie to d20 games and you belive that the system is great. That is great for you.

I just believe that I will wait and see what changes occur. Unlike looking forward to the next Memory Upgrade or CPU technology to come out, I am not looking forward to this since WW never fixed the problems with the old system. It is not beyond repair, they just don't care about putting out quality. This is a track record, not an opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie:
Yes - a character could slowy work out and maybe see results (player declare that they are using their xps for x ability). Yes - a character could also see a sudden increase in capabilities (players saves up their xps).
Odd. I'm sure that wasn't your original argument:
Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie, Upthread:
I can see the way that they will do this. You will be able to play a "Brick" Prestige Class character. As the level increases, the character's Strength, Armor, and Constitution will increase.

"Cool! I am 5rd Level now so my Armor will be enough to stop bullets. Never mind that I have not been hit by anything to justify my Armor increasing. I have been wearing body armor up until now to stay alive."

Sounds like you were originally arguing for logical progression.

Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie:
Ummm...maybe you should refer back up the page to a previous posting of mine. I mentioned it in my original post on this subject that if they did this like Mutants & Masterminds that it might, just might work. A little less emotion, a lot slower reading. You might not have as much reason to cry out.
Yes, you did. Which makes it all the more bewildering to me why you continue to denigrate d20 for railroading character progression, when there's a clear example to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie:
Actually you did say that in a previous post.
I said that the Node is not a muscle. This doesn't mean that the Node background cannot be increased. As I said, and you seem to have misread, I never said you could not increase your Node, I simply said that the Node is not a muscle. Two very different statements. The Node does not have to be a muscle that can be exercised in order for it to be able to be improved.

Quote:
You need to stop speed reading this post. I have been playing RPGs with levels since before you were born. I have seen just about every type system you can think of. I believe I have even been playing the ST for over, (gasp) 16 years (my youngest was not born before I started playing Vampire). Since they first came out with the system. It has changed a bit.

How, precisely, is that relevant? The fact that I've only been roleplaying since 2000 doesn't mean that you beat me with experience. I've played a considerable amount of systems in my brief roleplaying career, including level-based systems. I have actually played D&D 2ed, I've read D&D 1ed, and DMed D&D3.0. I've also played most of the ST games, and ran in Aberrant, Adventure! and Mage: The Ascension, I've played several Tri-Stat games, read all of the first editions of the WW flagship games (the joys of belonging to a roleplaying club!), I've compared Deadlands d20 to the original Deadlands, I've played the original Call of Cthulu, and read Call of Cthulu d20, played D&D 3.0 and 3.5, as well as Spycraft, am currently running a Nobilis game, co-written a Convention LARP game, am currently in the process of writing a Tabletop Convention game, worked on Lexicons and GMed more than I have played, and I'm sure I'm missing a few highlights.

I somehow doubt that your extra experience has any bearing on this discussion. Yes, I'm young. Yes, my experience with roleplaying pales to your multi-decade roleplaying career. That said, I've played and GMed plenty. I know exactly what I am talking about.

Quote:
I want you to go back, take a deep breath, clear your mind of preconceptions, and re-read what I have said. I used simple examples to illustrate my points. Don't read too much into them and don't take this personal. I have read many of your posts and I am impressed with what you have said. I belive though you have a very emotional tie to d20 games and you belive that the system is great. That is great for you.
Actually, d20 is one of my least favourite systems. As a generic system, I much prefer Storyteller. That said, d20 has merits as well as flaws, and it's actually a fairly solid system, if you're willing to tinker with it a little. I just detest people who bash d20 simply because it's the engine that runs D&D. d20 is not D&D. D&D is not d20. The two are different, and more importantly, d20 is not inviolable. You can tinker with it, if you wish. Last year I was all up and running to play a Sci Fi game using d20. He'd designed the Classes, Feats, Races etc. all by himself, and what he had done with the system was quite fantastic. It was more the pity when the GM chose to pull out of the game due to lack of free time.

I just dislike it when people attack a system for flaws that either do not exist, or are demonstrably overcomeable.

Quote:
I just believe that I will wait and see what changes occur. Unlike looking forward to the next Memory Upgrade or CPU technology to come out, I am not looking forward to this since WW never fixed the problems with the old system. It is not beyond repair, they just don't care about putting out quality. This is a track record, not an opinion.
Of course, WW has never been a company that put particular emphasis on system. WW has always been a company that tried to focus on creating worlds for GMs to explore and run games in, and very recently, White Wolf has matured quite considerably in this goal. The Worlds of Exalted, WoD Revised and Adventure! really showcase that the writers at WW have some considerable talent at making setting. That is the quality they aspire to.

The fact is, no matter what system they use, it's gonna suck. You can't make a system that's perfect for every type of game you can play. All systems have quirks and flaws that make them more suitable for a certain type of game. Not even GURPS is really a perfect system for every game. At best, it's workable for every system.

Exactly like d20. Exactly like Storyteller.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Sakurako, if you are interested in giving SW a try go back to the original (or 2nd ED) version published by West End Games. It's out of print now, but it is one of the better systems around IMO. It does require some flexibility and co-op between the GM and the players, but it also allows a very fluid and fun game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I, like most people that I've talked to, feel that the strength of the games are in their setting and not in their rules, so any changes to the setting could influence my opinion of the game greater than the rules change."

This sums up the way I feel. I've been role playing for 20+ years I'd say, and very few game ideas are ruined because of the system. Sometimes that is the case, I still have a problem with Shadowrun due to the first few times I played it, but the system is just a tool. The ST and the Players are what make the game. The setting, the genre, and the other elements make the game. The rules, unless horribly done, really shouldn't detract much from the game itself.

I've seen a lot of people run down the D20 system, and to be honest I often think of it as a kind of elitism, in that D20, which has a tendency to be a bit more strategically oriented in character building and play style than the ST system, which is less rigid. But in all honesty, the two systems really aren't all that different. All RPGs pretty much follow the same conventions, there's just a difference here and there in how they're achieved.

I already picked up A! D20, and it's fine, and I hope based on the strength of its sales we can see more books from it. Aberrant D20 I'm sure will also be done well, and entertaining and memorable games can be had with it. I think D20 is being run down very often, and without good reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course it's a matter of opinion, but why isn't it right? What makes one system so right over another? How do we know that the original writers of the Trinity games didn't have another system in mind for their games but were basically forced into using the WoD system (with some very well done differences) to distribute their game? How would you feel then if that was the case?

It's just a system, and unless the system is horrifically bad, you should be OK. The original Vampire game rules were in a very sorry state. There were tons of problems with them. But I and many others looked past those problems, and supported the game, mainly because the genre, the background, the style of the game were so great. And I say this knowing that they passed on a system that they had previously developed and worked to a great extent (I'm talking about Ars Magica, WW's original game).

Give it a chance, support the game I say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Blaine:
Give it a chance, support the game I say.
I'll support the game, there's no doubt of that. I just feel there's a clear division between RPGs: those that should be using a level-based system and those that shouldn't.

While Aberrant's system has its shortcomings, I feel the negative affects of a level-based system would far out weigh the old system's problems (assuming we're talking about the good ol' D20 system).

If and when the D20 Aberrant comes out I'll take a look at it and I'll be interested to see how they deal with some of the issues I'm worried about (ie - the difficulty of separating power from experience). Until then, however, I am hesistant to be on the "yay D20 Aberrant" train.


(And for the record I started playing the original Star Wars back in '90 and I find the D20 version to be far superior. Albeit, the Star Wars D20 is one of the more modified versions of the D20 system...)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Franklin 'Singularity' Alden:
Quote:
Originally posted by Blaine:
Give it a chance, support the game I say.
I'll support the game, there's no doubt of that. I just feel there's a clear division between RPGs: those that should be using a level-based system and those that shouldn't.

While Aberrant's system has its shortcomings, I feel the negative affects of a level-based system would far out weigh the old system's problems (assuming we're talking about the good ol' D20 system).
I dunno. I think, of all the Aeonverse games, that Aberrant is probably the one game that is most likely to be fit with the d20 design philosophy of rise to power (yes, someone said this in the Adventure! forum, but I do agree). Novas are constantly increasing in power (theoretically, anyway), and a level-based system could very easily capture that idea.

And as I keep pointing out, a lot of d20's "shortcomings" aren't nearly as fatal as people make them out to be. d20's "rules-heavy" reputation is more due to how much detail is put into the add-ons - which is useful for GMs who like to know precisely what someone is capable of. It's also somewhat divorced from Storyteller's usual view of "as little detail as necessary in order to be able to play". Detail-rich capabilities may allow Aberrant to break past it's normal playability threshold. Of course, in my experience d20 doesn't have a particularly high playability threshold either, usually the game starts getting ridiculous sometime between L10 and L15. Again, Aberrant characters getting to this point may suit this kind of roleplaying environment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirby1024:
I dunno. I think, of all the Aeonverse games, that Aberrant is probably the one game that is most likely to be fit with the d20 design philosophy of rise to power (yes, someone said this in the Adventure! forum, but I do agree). Novas are constantly increasing in power (theoretically, anyway), and a level-based system could very easily capture that idea.
Eh, po-ta-to po-tah-to. I might end up being totally wrong about D20 conversion and love it (like my Star Wars preference).

But I can definitely relate to the absurbity of 15th level and up D&D. I'm still amazed at how the ~15th level party in the game I DM is able to rip through most situations without a problem.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
People are already bitching about this on the WW boards?

Well, as a certain drill seargant in Full Metal Jacket says: WELL, NO SHIT...

1: Having to buy DnD 3.5's books just to play a bastardized d20 version of Aberrant is... well... WRONG.
2: d20 has become too prevelant in RPGs. I'm starting to think once again that this is WotC's attempt to take over the gaming world to shut it down.
3: d20 is a FLAWED and KLUDGY system. It re-enforces munchkin and rules-lawyer behavior. Not to mention gameplay resorts to "Dungeon Crawling" which basically is what d20 is. It takes the roleplaying out of the hands of the player, and gives it to the dice.
Amen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"1: Having to buy DnD 3.5's books just to play a bastardized d20 version of Aberrant is... well... WRONG."

This is probably the best point here. It does kind of suck that you'd have to purchase either D&D 3.5 or D20 Modern to get the rules straight. For many though it's not that big a deal as they probably own or have access to a copy. Still, a good point.

"2: d20 has become too prevelant in RPGs. I'm starting to think once again that this is WotC's attempt to take over the gaming world to shut it down."

This is an opinion of course, and I have to disagree. WotC has invested quite a bit in D&D 3 and 3.5, I can't imagine they'd go through all that just to put the kibosh on RPGs, not to mention it has so little chance of working. They stand to make much more money by having a large line of role playing games, OGL AND their CCGs. This just sounds a bit paranoid to me.

"3: d20 is a FLAWED and KLUDGY system. It re-enforces munchkin and rules-lawyer behavior. Not to mention gameplay resorts to "Dungeon Crawling" which basically is what d20 is. It takes the roleplaying out of the hands of the player, and gives it to the dice"

This is probably the greatest fear people have over D20 and IMO the largest misconception. The system is quite solid for starters, a very crunchy system that I think has proven to adapt well to many different genres and power levels. It does have a bit more of a tactical edge to it, but I think that's a natural repurcussion for having such a solid rules base. I've still seen plenty of WW games turn into dungeon crawls and bar room fights, and I've run and played in plenty of D20 games that revolved solely on character interaction and few die rolls at all. I've also seen countless posts and threads on WW forums about strategic character builds and tactics for encounters, D20 doesn't have a lock on that style of play any more than WW has a lock on pure Role Playing. It's a tool, that's all it is. If the only way you can think to play D20 games is as a dungeon crawl, then you are to blame. If the only way you play WW games is like a dinner party, that too is your blame. That doesn't make either kind of game bad or good, it all depends on who you're playing with that's all.

My thing is, don't blame the tools for what is the troupe's responsibility. Unless the rules are absolutely horrendous, they shouldn't affect the game too much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main reason why d20 can't do abberant that I haven't heard much of is levels and powers.I have yet to see a d20 game that solves this problem.I haven't looked at the sample but here it is from D&D. Let's say i want to be a fighter mage.Every lever of fighter makes it harder for me to gain levels of mage,and every level of mage makes it harder for mne to gain levels of fighter.A 5 fith level fighter first level mage takes I think 4 times the exp to gain a level ofmage as first level mage.Also there is a finite amount of levels thgat really matter.

Seeing as in d20 there are both front loaded and back loaded classes it means that some classes multi class and other don't.Aberrant is offten about have characters who can do stange things that do not relate to other things they can do.D20 punishes just about anything but speacializing.The fighter is not only never going to be as good as the spell caster, there will be some spells he simplely can never cast. Ie if your a 4th level fighter there is no way for you to cast level 9th spells,ever.Let alone say a 8th level fighter.that fighter may not beable to cast level 7th level spells.

And as I said, learning to fight with your hands makes learning to cast spells, and then in turns makes it harder for you learn hand to hand again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All the things you just mentioned about the Fighter/Mage is solved by taking Prestige Classes (the best example is the new Eldritch Knight, which allows you to get a BAB of 16/11/6/1 and 9th level spells). Plus what you're suggesting is that someone who diversifies their powers should somehow be better at someone more focused. To my knowledge that kind of character development doesn't really exist anywhere in the WW games. A fighter type has certain logical builds as does a mage type. With any game system you're going to encounter this. I think D20 has more than enough unique character development possibilities with mutli-classing, Prestige Classes, Feats, skills and now Quantum Powers.

I understand your concern, but what you describe, IMO isn't unique to D20.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And what if they want to be sneaky as well?And what this, if I build a brink in story teller and then try to be a blaster.I am not PUNISHED.I pay the SAME EXP to get the SAME powers.So a Prestige lets you do one build, guess what, what if you involved a character who doesn't whole fit in to that class?I mean that Prestige requires you do some things, I think you may need to take some feats.Mind you, you only get very few feats ever.And feats let you do cool things that other games let you do on a whim...

D20 is a game of finite abbilities and finite resousoures.This from skills abilties, levels, feats, spells, character types...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That Brick becoming a Blaster is actually paying more XP than otherwise. Quite obviously the Blaster has a jumpstart on the brick with ranged powers. The Brick, midstream, must buy a brand new power, at the inflated first dot price, and then spend points to level it up, not to mention probably doesn't have the Attributes or Quantum that go well with that power, and might need to raise those also, more XP in other words. In other WW games, those powers are often also at an inflated out of clan-type price. So you are punished, you are paying more XP, and you are still behind the other Blaster. You're making a claim that really isn't supported. A focused build is rewarded in both games, and a diversified is punished a bit.

And while it might cost more XP in D20 to go up a level when you reach a higher level, you're also typically receiving more XP per encounter due to the fact that the CR is increasing with your level. WW games have a standard amount of XP regardless of the challenge, in fact it only changes when you reach the end of the story, and the occasional discretionary point for great role playing. The prices for higher powers gets greater and greater though also, so the Brick/Blaster that's equal in both still spends a ton to increase them both, and the Brick or Blaster will surpass him in power in their particular archetype. Again I'm not seeing this difference you're focused on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's say a brick in the story teller system is ubberly powerful.If he wants to start learning to use blasting powers, he pays the same amount of EXP as anyone else who wants to learn in.If starts to learnt his power after he has gotten 10 exp or 10,000 exp, the dots cost the same.

To gain the first level of mage for a level 1 fighter is 2,000 EXP, and about ten times as much at level 10.But you still only gain the same abilities.But it is harder for you to learn..Then it takes more EXP to gain a level of fighter, after you took a level of mage..So the level 11 fighter level take more EXP for the 10 fighter.1 mage than 10 fighter...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't get me wrong, I understood your point about the 10th level Fighter taking a level in Wizard or something. It does cost more XP, but he's also getting more XP. The way D&D is set up is so that after 13 appropriate encounters you should be able to go up a level, or close to it at any rate. That applies whether you're 1st or 21st level. So while the XP cost increases, your XP gain should increase also.

In WW games you might average 2 to 3 points per game session, and then get another 2 or 3 at the end of a story. Exceptional performance could net you a bit more. That doesn't change regardless of the challenge you faced or your power level. But your power levels get more and more expensive. The 5th dot far and away is more expensive than the 1st, especially if you have to pay for all the dots in between. You're actually paying more in WW games IMO, than in D&D. The main differences are that an improvement is piecemeal, rather than a net gain such as when gaining a level. For example you might want to make your Brick into a Blaster, with only one Blaster power. In Aberrant, that would involve buying Q-Bolt. In D20 such a change is only possible when getting a new level, and with that new level, you'd get more than just the Q-Bolt. It seems like you get more for your buck in D20.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my playing of d20 you get more exp at the same rate as yu need to gain more exp to level..IR as you go up, the CR goes up as CR goes up, the EXP does as wll..but this means that the story teller must make geometrically larger problems for the players.

Yes ST in story teller games have to make bigger problems for the players, but each two CR in d20 is power jump of dubble.A CR 21 is roughly 1024 times as power as a CR 1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"In my playing of d20 you get more exp at the same rate as yu need to gain more exp to level..IR as you go up, the CR goes up as CR goes up, the EXP does as wll..but this means that the story teller must make geometrically larger problems for the players.

Yes ST in story teller games have to make bigger problems for the players, but each two CR in d20 is power jump of dubble.A CR 21 is roughly 1024 times as power as a CR 1."

Good analysis. I'm not sure I see the problem though.

One thing I do have an issue with in D20 A! (and Aberrant will likely have the same issue) is that there is no exp. table, nor a section on gaining XP. One has to assume that you do it the same way it's done in D&D 3.5 or D20 Modern. That's due to the OGL I'm sure, but it's not a very precise fit. It might require the most amount of tweking I'd say to fit your game style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is my main beef with a level based system for Aberrant...

The point of Aberrant is most CERTAINLY NOT balance. I like the idea that someone can erupt with high levels of disintegrate and thats it.

The freedom of Aberrant is for advanced role playing, it being a template that is completely mutable and loose.

What Aberrant lacked in rules solidarity it made up for in imagination fuel. I like that someone can start out fresh with killer and unbalanced powers. ITs what makes the Aberrant world so cool and unpredictable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dislike the concept that a shoddy rules system is some how superior because it calls for 'advanced roleplaying'. In my view it is snobbery, a claim that if you're a good roleplayer you don't need all those fancy rules and you should just be able to take a bare bones concept and run with it. If that's the case why the fuck am I paying 29.95?

Gimme a system with good solid rules so everyone knows where they stand. If something stands in the way, I'll play without it. But having to spend half of each session filling in the holes because the concept of editing or play testing is too facist for someone isn't my idea of fun either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RAZZLE-FRAZZLE! DING DONG HELLCRAP! PAINT MY HOUSE PLAID MONKEY TURDS!

I made a nice, decently long post and then accidentally closed the screen before posting it. Don't you hate when that happens?

Let me try again.

"The point of Aberrant is most CERTAINLY NOT balance. I like the idea that someone can erupt with high levels of disintegrate and thats it.

The freedom of Aberrant is for advanced role playing, it being a template that is completely mutable and loose."

I think balance in all games comes from the roles one plays in the game itself. No one expects the wizard to tank for example, though they might be able to depending on the build of the character and the spells taken. There's still plenty of mismatch even between characters of the same level, like Monks vs Wizards. The freedom you talk about in Aberrant is kind of illusory, because the archetypes are still there (brick, blaster, gadgeteer, etc) they just aren't codified in the rules as much.

You're still going to have two Aberrants starting off and one will completely outperfrom the other in certain ways and vice versa. Every system has that. Like I said, I believe it's the roles played that provides the balance.

"What Aberrant lacked in rules solidarity it made up for in imagination fuel. I like that someone can start out fresh with killer and unbalanced powers. ITs what makes the Aberrant world so cool and unpredictable."

You definitely have a point here. I'm not sure how they're going to allow a 1st level character access to 3rd level powers, in fact I think they just don't. Like Stalwarts and Mesmerists in A! D20, you need to take levels of the Superhuman Template, and each level allows you access to higher level Quantum powers, meaning that you wouldn't get them until 3rd level. However, I think that will just mean that PCs will start at 3rd or 4th (the advised starting level in A! D20). They also redid the levels on some of the powers, allowing versatile and popular powers to be gotten at earlier levels. Which is a good idea I think. For that Disentegrate you mentioned, I think it's going to be a bit different anyway, there's no Agg. damage in D20, so the power might mimic the spell of the same name in some way. To simulate the power though you could take Q-Bolt at 1st level, and still have a Feat left over to supercharge it with an Extra, giving you a decided edge over others at an early level, and because Q-Bolt is now a 1st level power, you can stack two extras on it. that right there is a focused character build at an early level. Just an idea.

Sorry for the harsh language.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:
Originally posted by Ashnod:
I dislike "classes." Reading the Aberrant preview with Classes like "Crusader" make me...I dunno, REALLY hesitant about the idea.
The way I read it Crusader looks to me like Marvel. The classes look to be more paths and less classes in the classical sense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my question, and It's probably worth $64,000...

How are they handling taint? Is it so ingrained in the mecahnic everyone gets it, or is it something that comes with using the power and improving it?

I've always found d20 lacking in certain things dealing with powers and the balances like Taint.

d20 always wants to resort to being DnD in the resolution of certain mechanics, while Aberrant d20 feels like it wants to be Storyteller, yet is stuck in a d20 body.

I ahve to say I'm going to be quite awkward playing this new... aberration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...