Aberrant RPG - Aberrant goes d20...

[Isac Larousse]

Check this link: http://www.swordsorcery.com/swordsorcery/press/PR_Continuum.html

[Meridian]

Wow.

Be interested to see how Aberrant changes in d20. I suspect that a lot of the setting will be the same ... but I would wager that Bates will change the rules quite a bit.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

What are "d20" rules? Is that a current system?

[Meridian]

Yep. 3rd ed D&D. The made the base rules an 'open system' meaning that anyone could port their games over to the 'd20' rules that D&D currently use.

[Meridian]

A quote from the press release:

Quote:

Each book will be hardcover in the standard 8-1/2 by 11-inch format, and will be compatible with the d20 System, requiring the Dungeons & Dragons v.3.5 Player's Handbook. Each is otherwise complete unto itself. In addition, the three together tell a generational saga the likes of which is seen rarely in roleplaying.

Folks on the WW boards are already bitching about this. The fact that you have to buy the D&D book as opposed to haveing all the rules being self contained like Mutants & Masterminds or requiring the generic 'd20 Modern' rule book is raising hackles.

More info from Bruce Baugh:

Quote:

Okay, I heard back from the bossman, so here's some more

word:

Andrew Bates is in charge of the setting integration and

updating himself. This is officially good news, for those

playing along at home, since Andrew was in charge of

Trinity and jointly in charge of Adventure. I don't know

what all he'll be doing to smooth out the glitches between

games, but I am certainly looking forward to it (and

indeed have already set about trying to glom some behind-

the-scenes looks).

Jim Kiley is in charge of Adventure rules development. Jim

was of course part of the Adventure team and worked on

Trinity, and is just a great guy for this kind of thing.

You liked "you get what you reward"? You liked the

dramatic editing categories? You liked the setup for the

Second American Revolution? (Not to mention Gangrel

Revised and Bone Gnawers Revised.) You'll like this.

Mike Lee is in charge of Aberrant and Trinity rules

development. Mike worked a bunch on Trinity, including

laying the foundations for the laser doggies, I mean, the

Chromatics, and doing great work with the Alien Encounter

adventures. You may also have seen his work as developer

on Demon, and he's got some other really cool d20 work

coming up that will get hyped in due season. Mike really

knows how this stuff should go. Sometimes he's come in

after or during a crisis and had to do salvage work (Demon

had problems with, among others, me collapsing on short

notice and leaving crucial work undone); this time he gets

to do it right from the get-go. I'm really looking forward

to his volumes as well.

This is gonna rock, I'm thinking.

[Cody]

I'm thinking somebody owes Mr. Trollroot an apology...

[Paris]

I gotta say - i really don't like this idea. 3rd ed. is much better than previous versions of D&D, but it still kinda sucks. (In my humble opinion.)

I know d20 is making a lot of money as a simple system for beginner players, but i'll not like seeing the Trinity Universe get slapped with a downgraded system for the sake of a few bucks. Of course, I suppose the lines did die out because nobody was buying, so this may be the only way to see them get resurrected.

I still don't like it.

[Neil Preston]

Money for our souls ....

I think someone else has had this dilemma laid before them, as well.

[Sakurako Hino]

People are already bitching about this on the WW boards?

Well, as a certain drill seargant in Full Metal Jacket says: WELL, NO SHIT...

1: Having to buy DnD 3.5's books just to play a bastardized d20 version of Aberrant is... well... WRONG.

2: d20 has become too prevelant in RPGs. I'm starting to think once again that this is WotC's attempt to take over the gaming world to shut it down.

3: d20 is a FLAWED and KLUDGY system. It re-enforces munchkin and rules-lawyer behavior. Not to mention gameplay resorts to "Dungeon Crawling" which basically is what d20 is. It takes the roleplaying out of the hands of the player, and gives it to the dice.

It looks like I'm going to work on my Tri-Stat dX conversion of Aberrant soon...

At least that system WORKS.

[Asche]

I HATE D20 more than anything.

I will NEVER support it.

I will NEVER play it.

As far as I am concerned, I would rather take the same money it would take to buy the books and pay some transient to shoot me up with whatever his latest concoction was.

Just my $.02

Looks like I will indeed go about getting my mechanics published. Of course I might be a drop in the proverbial bucket

[Meridian]

I on the other hand am not a d20 hater.

Do I wish the game were going to be kept with the storyteller system? Yes.

Given d20 do I wish that the rules would be in each book? Yes.

Making folks buy the D&D PHB first is a terrible mistake IMO.

Will I refuse to buy? Heck no. I already own the D&D PHB, though I must confess that I've never managed to finish reading it or spent much effort learning the system. I'm also interested to see what changes will happen in the new system.

I am also very sure that this will bring new blood into the game which is a good thing. So what if they are immature at first. Over time they will mature or be weeded out.

It's going to be stange thinking about novas with AC, HP, THACO, and the rest though.

[Percival Hutchinson]

Wow. Feel the love... Frankly, this doesn't really bother me that much. The World of Drakness rules have just never seemed to do the job for me, and lets face it; the WOD rules have major holes you can drive a Mac truck through.

I personally would like to see rules of a similar nature to Mutants and Masterminds; a game that takes the best elements of the D20 system and makes it it's own. I don't think that WW wants to deal with any lawsuits however, so they're going to stay with the original wording and intent of the Open Gaming Liscence.

As for all this business about D20 promoting Roll-Playing rather than Role-Playing, well, I personally think that is more a reflection on the people playing the game rather than the game itself. The D&D game I am in is completly story driven and at 3rd level we have yet to enter any major type of "dungeon".

[Sphere]

I love the WOD rules for their simplicity, and the fact that I don't need to mess about with a thousand different dice types (Palladium, I'm looking at you here).

But I've always found that the major problem with WOD rules is that they were primarily designed for use with PCs which had advanced healing capabilities (vampires and werewolves). This made it pretty tough on anyone wanting to play regular humans (the old-school Hunter chronicles were always hell to run).

When I ran a Fomori chronicle for my Players, I insisted they all buy the Regeneration power. Else they'd be mincemeat before they had a chance to react to anything.

When we moved over to Aberrant, I told everyone that they didn't have to get the Regeneration enhancement if they didn't want to. But most of them went for it anyway. The only one who didn't was a Heath Level Q-vampire.

I used to play a lot of TMNT and Rifts and still have a soft spot for the Palladium system, (ahh, mega-damage. Now there was a concept made for Aberrant). Have never really played the D20 system, but then it's only recently they've started using it outside of AD&D (as far as I know). Never been one for fantasy roleplay really.

[Sakurako Hino]

All I have to say, is if you're looking for a system to convert Aberrant to, LOOK HERE!

TriStat dX

An RPG rules engine for FREE!

As you can see, you know where I'd put my money. You oculd get this at a game shop for under 10 dollars and not have to print this out, but they also offer it for free, so I guess the money you save is just the money you'd go through printing it out...

But, I know it works, and I think it's a better system to use. (Not to mention it can be scaled down for newbie gamers to use too! Big plus!)

Now to start converting...

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Well, let the bitching and moaning begin.

Me? I'm glad. Storyteller is cute and nice and all, but it has one massive fucking flaw beyond the normal crap editing WW puts out.

It assumes your players are all mature artists.

That doesn't happen 99% of the time. Even the group that I roleplay with, which is a great group, lightyears beyond your average hack n' slash fuckwad, even they are prone to powergaming and getting the absolute most out of a system for their character. And storyteller simply makes too many assumptions that the players involved are all beyond that. The rules are paper thin, full of holes and basically demand that the ST make scores of decisions based on nothing more than his or her whim.

I like Aberrant not for the system, which sucks baboon dick, but for the metaplot, the feel, and the stories you can get from it. Probably one of the reasons I'm such a canon fascist.

I think this is a good thing and am gleefuly awaiting it. Though, I've grown to love Mutant's and Masterminds.

[Vixen]

Just thought I'd chime in with something found on rpg.net...

Wizards of the Coast? ANNOUNCES ST2.0® versions of

FAN-FAVORITE Forgotten Realms

Renton, WA, September 28, 2003 - Fans of innovative and dynamic roleplaying games can look forward to new hardcover editions of the acclaimed Forgotten Realms game setting, to be published under the popular Storyteller 2.0 System.

"We wanted to make these exciting games available to the large audience of gamers who use the ST2.0 rules," said Ryan Dancey.

"The setting of Forgotten Realms have long had loyal followings," added Richard Baker, Developer of Forgotten Realms. "By launching them under the Storyteller 2.0 System, we hope to bring them to an even larger group of fans."

The Forgotten Realms Storyteller Setting will release in 2004, starting in April with the core Campaign Setting book.

"This is a new edition of the game fans know and love," Baker observed, "with changes primarily to the rules, but also to clean up and reinforce the themes of the setting."

The book will be hardcover in the standard 8-1/2 by 11-inch format, and will be self-contained. In addition, the game tells a generational saga the likes of which is seen rarely in roleplaying.

Dragon Magazine called FR "classic fantasy," while RPG.net lauded FR's "traditional setting" as "imaginative, innovative and fun."

# # #

Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. (NYSE: HAS), is the worldwide market share leader in the trading card game and tabletop roleplaying game categories. A leading developer and publisher of game-based entertainment products, the company holds an exclusive patent on the play mechanic of trading card games. For more information visit www.wizards.com.

Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, and all the names of Wizards of the Coast games are trademarks or registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. ©2003 Wizards.

#####

[Meridian]

Andrew Bates speaks in the WW forums:

Quote:

We wouldn't do this to our Vampire or Werewolf fans because those lines always had market bases large enough to sustain the game lines.

The simple fact is that none of the Continuum games ever sold enough to sustain themselves in the long term. We always liked the settings, but it's financial suicide as a business to keep putting out books that lose money.

We talked a lot about what we could do, if anything, to give the Continuum setting another chance. Despite ongoing fluctuations in the market and competition among d20 third party publishers, we agreed that it's the best way to reach the largest number of gamers.

Given the choice between never doing another Continuum book or launching them in d20, I thought that it was an easy choice -- and I've been involved with the setting from the very beginning and through every incarnation.

Which brings me to the next point: doing the game justice. The d20 System gets slammed a lot -- it's just about leveling up and beating on the bad guys; the focus is on dice rolling, not roleplaying; blah blah blah. Fair enough, as far as that goes. But any game can devolve into just so much hacking and slashing if you don't explore social- or roleplaying-oriented permutations.

Give us a little credit. We won't make some cheesy crap, here. Everyone working on the d20 Continuum games was involved in the Storyteller versions, and was picked solely because they want to do the games right.

James Kiley got his start in the industry writing for Trinity, in fact, and has lent his talent to countless other Continuum and WoD titles, including being one of the key authors on Adventure! He's at the helm of Adventure! d20.

Mike Lee also wrote some killer stuff for Trinity and Adventure! (likewise wrote part of the latter core book), not to mention a lot of material for WoD and acting as designer and line developer for Demon. He's the guy coordinating the d20 versions of Aberrant and Trinity.

There's myself, who was lead designer on Trinity, contributing designer on Aberrant, and conceptual designer and co-developer with Bruce Baugh on Adventure!. I'm overseeing Jim and Mike, including taking the time to rework the respective settings to mesh better with the overall cosmology -- while remaining as distinct in tone as they were in their initial incarnations.

So, where are other contributors -- like Bruce Baugh, as some might wonder? Involved in other projects. Bruce is the face of the Continuum to many folks, I know, and he was an obvious choice to handle at least one of these projects. Unfortunately, he was already set to helm the forthcoming Gamma World line. Given the release schedule for the respective books, there was simply no time for him to work on both. These books will be no less for that, though; we may not have as high an online profile, but I like to think that Jim, Mike and myself will do as much justice to the d20 Continuum games as Bruce would. (Plus, this way, we're guaranteed a truly stellar Gamma World game, too.)

And, in fact, many of the original Continuum authors will offer their input on the material that Jim, Mike and myself put together. (This will cause some fans to ask if they, too, can do the same. In a perfect world, absolutely. Unfortunately, we just don't have the time or resources to coordinate feedback on that scale.)

The bottom line: Much as we may want to, we can't ignore the practicalities of the industry or how the Continuum lines have performed in the past. After a lot of thought and discussion, we ade what we felt was the best choice for the properties. We have no interest in making a watered-down version of the Continuum, and will do everything in our power to ensure that we

maintain the essential feel of each game.

So with all that said, I ask that you give us -- hell, let's just focus on me, why don't we? After all, I'm the one who lobbied the loudest to make this happen -- give me the benefit of doubt. Hold the talk of gloom and doom, of sellout and not caring about the fans, and wait till you see the finished products. Then, if you still think that I'm the antichrist, have me arrested for crimes against humanity and lock me up in the Hague. Or, I suppose, you could just not buy the books. That'd send a clear message.

On the other hand, perhaps I'm naive, but I like to think that Continuum d20 games could be pretty cool, and might even do well enough to see more releases -- perhaps even with more than just d20 rules in 'em.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Bates

Sword & Sorcery Managing Editor

[Sphere]

Of course, the coolest thing is that, when all the d20 newbies start visiting this site, I can snobbily refer to Classic Aberrant. Bwah ha haa!

I'm not too concerned about Continuum going d20. I've got everything I really need, supplement wise, to play the game. The only thing I'd have really liked to have seen was a more in-depth book about the Aberrant group.

Hey ho.

[Meridian]

Based upon other posts seen elsewhere my hope is that the ‘Requires D&D PHB’ is there for legal reasons. WW should be able to put 99.9% of the rules in their new core books and have the ‘required’ line there to keep them legal. The reality would be that if you bought say just the Aberrant d20 core book you could play. If his is the case then I will not complain.

The d20 rules themselves I can live without but I suspect that I’ll survive especially if the specific game implementation is good.

It hasn’t been answered as to whether or not we will have ‘dual stats.’ I’m personally hoping that at the very least the game has a conversion table or something. Dual statting will make me happy but I can live without it.

Having the setting rewritten for tighter integration is also not a bad thing.

Getting new faces will be a good thing no matter how you slice it.

All things considered I see this as a positive move. I would much rather have Aberrant / A! / Trinity d20 than nothing at all. I’ll put myself down as neutral to positive in my current reaction.

Now I’m starting to get curious to see how they will actually implement all this. Will the game use classes and levels? Classes make sense in A! and Trinity but not so much in Aberrant. How to you handle Quantum, Node, etc. in a d20 game?

[Paris]

Sphere has a point - most of us have everything we need to run a game in teh Storyteller system, should we want to.

In that light, it is cool that we will be geting some of the metaplot material - after all, not to long ago it looked as if this stuff was lost forever.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino:
1: Having to buy DnD 3.5's books just to play a bastardized d20 version of Aberrant is... well... WRONG.

As opposed to 3 books for D&D? If I'm getting away with only two, that's pretty cool. Of course, you'll tend to find that if you're near a nest of roleplayers, at least one guy around will have the book you're looking for - and asking for it might get them interested...

Quote:

2: d20 has become too prevelant in RPGs. I'm starting to think once again that this is WotC's attempt to take over the gaming world to shut it down.

Sorry, I don't buy that. There's some stuff wrong with the d20 licence, but I highly doubt that WotC would be stupid enough to try and pull of a conspiracy of that caliber. And that's besides the fact that for many RPG companies, d20 has breathed new life into them, and into systems that otherwise would have died with a whimper.

d20 has become rather prevalent, but past experience with stuff like this points out the more likely possibility that were WotC stupid enough to try and destroy the entirety of Roleplaying, all that'd happen is that Hasbro would have a rather violent bump in their accounts, and other roleplaying companies would go back to selling their original systems. Such an attempt would fail dismally, for the very good reason that very few companies have nothing but d20 to work with.

It's not like WW sells d20 because it has to to survive. WoD has been quite popular, and eminently successful, when WoD 2.0 comes out, I suspect that it will still be quite popular. d20, for WW, is a side-seller.

Quote:

3: d20 is a FLAWED and KLUDGY system. It re-enforces munchkin and rules-lawyer behavior. Not to mention gameplay resorts to "Dungeon Crawling" which basically is what d20 is. It takes the roleplaying out of the hands of the player, and gives it to the dice.

I'm sorry, but that's bulltwaddle. I've played d20, I've played ST, they both have their good and bad parts. d20 is not kludgy and certainly not flawed - in fact, a lot of Aberrant is a whole lot kludgier than most d20 mechanics I've seen.

As for "reinforcing muchkin and rules-lawyer behaviour", I'd say that d20 probably is neutral on this, but it's worth pointing out that in general, abusive players don't need encouragement, and Rules-lawyers tend to get off more on ST, due to the many vagaries in the rules-systems. d20, at the very least, has less wiggle room for over-aggressive players to stomp on less-assertive GMs.

Finally, d20 is most certainly not just Dungeon-crawling. Spycraft alone entirely invalidates that argument. I've honestly considered running Trinity under Spycraft, and I'm of the honest assumption that it'd work. Quite well, in fact. It's fantastically cinematic, it can go in as many directions as you like, and Spycraft is designed quite explicitly to run with as little combat as possible. Not surprising, considering it's a game about Spies. And it's completely d20. A few minor and one or two major modifications to the system, and it's suddenly up and rearing for excellent non-combat entertainment. And then there's Call of Cthulu d20, another system that emphasises, with a few rule modifications, that combat is a bad thing.

I'm not a d20 groupie. I won't say that it's my favourite system (I prefer ST over d20), but as a generic system, it's surprisingly flexible. The problem most people have with it, is that people think it's synoymous with D&D, which is blantantly untrue.

I recommend that those here who are so adamantly against d20 to have a flip through of some of the other d20 systems that are around. Spycraft, Mutants & Masterminds, Call of Cthulu d20, these are all d20 systems that show exactly how versatile the system is.

Oh, and just to point out something that was pointed out on one of the mailing lists:

Quote:

Bryan Durell wrote:
"It's just gonna be Vampire in space; the Storyteller system isn't good for anything else."

Seriously. This is /exactly/ how a lot of people reacted to the news that WW was using the Storyteller system for anything outside the WoD.

Considering history, I think waiting and watching to be the more prudent course of action, yes?

As you might expect, I welcome this announcement. There's been very little on the horizon for Aeon games, and the fact that there's something here now is fantastic in my opinion. Sure, it's not a system that my favourite, but I'm not going to blindly turn down an opportunity to possibly bring a wider range of players to the Aeonverse, simply because of a system that frankly has somewhat of a bad rap.

Oh, and just to refute a few other misconceptions:

Quote:

All I have to say, is if you're looking for a system to convert Aberrant to, LOOK HERE!

TriStat dX

An RPG rules engine for FREE!

Dude, the generic d20 SRD is avaliable for free on the WotC site, in RTF format no less. If you really don't want to buy D&D 3.5, just download the d20 SRD. It's not as pretty, but there's no charge. This is the SRD that system developers use to make their own d20 variants.

http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35

Quote:

It hasn’t been answered as to whether or not we will have ‘dual stats.’ I’m personally hoping that at the very least the game has a conversion table or something. Dual statting will make me happy but I can live without it.

James Kiley has hinted that it probably won't be "dual-stat" throughout the entire book, due to apparently extremely limited space constraints. I'm not sure whether there'll be a conversion index, however...

[Vixen]

The issue I personally have with d20 is the poor probability curve of "roll a d20 against a target number." This site goes into it in more detail. It's SIMPLE, sure, but simple doesn't always equal good or even viable - otherwise we wouldn't need 320 page rulebooks.

And while you can take out classes, levels, experience points, feats, spells, hit points and so on and so forth - I think it's unlikely that they'll alter this part of the system. If they do, I'll give it a look - I'll be giving it a look anyway - but I don't think they will.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vixen:
The issue I personally have with d20 is the poor probability curve of "roll a d20 against a target number." This site goes into it in more detail. It's SIMPLE, sure, but simple doesn't always equal good or even viable - otherwise we wouldn't need 320 page rulebooks.

This is reminding me of "The Gamers", a movie short I watched last night:

"Mighty Thork has a Strength of 18! I shall move this gate!"
"OK, roll!"
[roll - botch!]
"Ow! My back!"
"OK, I, Nimble the thief, try to move the gate!"
"What's your Strength?"
"6!"
"Fine, roll it."
[roll - Critical hit!]
"RAAAAAAR!!! [gate lifts, he throws it to the side] You see, Thork, lift with your legs, not your back..."

You know, speaking of this, another quote (from a thread about Aeon d20 from alt.games.whitewolf) described the crux of the discussion very simply:

Quote:

Christopher Adams wrote on alt.games.whitewolf:
That said, every single system argument ever has come down to either taste or
mathematics, so I don't know why people like arguing about it.

That said, ST2.0 (Aeon's system) isn't perfect. I know several people who refuse to play it for the simple reason that when you chart out the probability distribution equations, at 4+ dice, the probability of botching becomes higher than the chance of a standard fail. Many people did not like that one bit.

Oh, and if you like, you can actually test this out yourself. A while ago I derived the mathematical equation that'll allow you to get the probability of at least 1 success, fail or at least 1 botch for x amount of dice for ST2.0:

Pr(Success) = 1 - 0.6^x
Pr(Fail) = 0.5^x
Pr(Botch) = 0.6^x - 0.5^x

(Interestingly, these equations can be generalised to higher or lower difficulty numbers rather simply, and even to different die types with little fuss (ever wanted to play Storyteller with d6?). PM me if you want to know the generic equations, for the moment it's not necessary to post them up. Amusingly, these equations actually work for x = 0 as well (Pr(Fail) = 1, Pr(Success) = 0, Pr(Botch) = 0).)

I find that most Dice resolution systems have mildly annoying quirks. A problem with most simulational systems, I find. Adventure, however, might play quite well to d20's particular quirks, considering pulp's conventions...

[Dr. Zero]

Just a thought or two to a long time ST and a long time D20 player...

I dont find d20 flexible, I find it clear

I dont find ST2.0 Clear, I find it flexible

Aberrants flexibility is key to it as a system.

If you look at any other superhero game, none have the flexibility that Aberrant has. None are any good. (Heros Unlimited, baby... yea)

I feel that D20s strength is in making rule systems simpler and more defined.

A simple and more defined rule system would inhibit flexibility in my opinion.

As an Aberrant ST I NEED the ability to see partial successes, huge successes that arent criticals, add a die, subtract a die, etc...

D20 you do or dont. Its black or white if you fail or hit.

St2.0 there are many more degrees.

I play D20 as a game. I roleplay with ST2.0

Thats my story and Im sticking to it

Zero

[Rev. Dr. Zoidberg Esq.]

I say Boycott the mofo's. This Aeoniverse in d20 and Forgotten Realms in ST2.0 has to go.

Orpheus will be the last purchase I make from those soul soliciting cocksmokers.

I say no more supplements is better than d20 supplements. I mean no matter how much you try and retrofit the d20 shit into White Wolf it will never come close to the same.

Still on that note I have converted various aspects of Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape and other D20 nonsense into something workable.

I think its even funnier that D&D made a 3.5 and people actually want the crap.

For someone like me who has supported White Wolf since the beginning - we are talking Lion Rampant's Ars Magica - its pretty serious when I tell them to fuck off.

White Wolf can choke on T$R's d20's and I hope the lawsuit they have with Sony fails horribly.

Just my d20 cents on it.

[Meridian]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rev. Dr. Zoidberg, Esq. M.D. D.D.S.:
I say Boycott the mofo's. This Aeoniverse in d20 and Forgotten Realms in ST2.0 has to go.

I say no more supplements is better than d20 supplements. I mean no matter how much you try and retrofit the d20 shit into White Wolf it will never come close to the same.

How is no supplements better than new d20 ones? Worst case is that you decide you like the old stuff better & that effectively means no change from the way things are right now. IMO it's kind of like saying that you hate the new $1 coins. You like the old one & you are going to keep it. No more new $1 coins for you. Never mind that they can only make you richer.

I’m not exactly thrilled with the d20 decision either but I’m willing to hope for the best & give them a chance to put out a game before I make a judgment.

Given the low sales figures for the existing Aeonverse games I doubt that your boycott will make much of an impact. As for me I will be looking & possibly buying.

[Kirby1024]

I'd just like to point out, I harbour strong suspicions that Dr. Zoidberg is probably not interested in a reasonable discussion of the issue (unless, of course, "reasonable discussion" equates to gratuitous d20 bashing).

While my Moderator duties have been reduced somewhat, (and that I'm aware that the vast majority of people posting on this thread are acting in an exemplary manner), can we please have no gratuitous d20 bashing? I don't mind people discussing merits & flaws of the d20 system, or even discussing the merits & flaws of Wizard's of the Coast's business plan, But I'll kindly ask that people do not just throw out blanket claims of "d20 suxxors!", or "WotC is teh EVILZ!!!1!!".

There's enough of that baseless secatum tauri on RPG.net, the newsgroups, as well as many Mailing lists. I'd much prefer that N! Prime remains a civil discussion ground.

I apologise if this seems patronising to some people, as I'm sure it will. But I don't think this is an unreasonable request. If you're going to attack d20 or WotC, please have your reasons on standby. If either Chosen or Asche disagree with me here, please shout out. But I think it's worth reminding people of ground rules here. Oddly, d20 is a hot-button in many people's minds, aka a very emotional issue.

We now return to your regular discussion...

[Hugin]

Not patronizing to me Kirbster Ol Buddy Ol Pal.

I understand some people don't dig the D20 and that's cool and all, but you're right, no need for this to get all icky.

[Walker]

No one ssshall have my preciousssesss D10sssss, How we hatesss thosse Dodecahedron D20 bastardssssss, yes we doessss. So easssyy they roll off the table and behind the sssofa and getsss lossst. Not like my D10'ssss, my preciousssesss.

But d20 is more widely available and popular my ...

No NEVER, we hatesss them, NEVERSSSS.

Ahem.

If it makes the supplements more readily available in my neck of the woods then I'll buy them.

Then I'll convert them into storyteller system like they should be. And post those conversion tables on the net if it doesn't violate copyright, which it probably won't.

We Hatesss Them FOREVER. waves half eaten fish at moon

[Meridian]

From the WW Boards:

,,

Quote:

I'm curious as how the relaunches will effect the metaplot continuity. Will they "reset the clock" and set things back to 2008 (Ab) and 2122 (T) or will they work past events into the backstory and imediatly blaze new trails? Will they even keep the old metaplot?

To which Andrew Bates replied:,,

Quote:

This, I'll reply to.*

I plan on leaving Adventure's continuity where it's at already.

Aberrant will re-set almost to the start, but with tweaks to create a stronger internal logic for why the different Aeon Society groups are doing what they're doing. (I'd love to have been able to re-envision the Aberrant setting to my taste, but that's not my call to make.)

Trinity will have the biggest change, setting the time frame after the return of the Upeo and the public discovery of aliens -- pretty much the end of the Alien Encounter adventure series. (Brings in all the viable character types, plus aliens.) The whole aberrant war thing will get an overhaul, too, now that we have a better idea of just what they're like. (What I was told during Trinity's initial design is quite different from how Aberrant turned out.)

Bates

Sword & Sorcery Managing Editor

[Sakurako Hino]

Quote:

Originally posted by Walker:
No one ssshall have my preciousssesss D10sssss, How we hatesss thosse Dodecahedron D20 bastardssssss, yes we doessss. So easssyy they roll off the table and behind the sssofa and getsss lossst. Not like my D10'ssss, my preciousssesss.

But d20 is more widely available and popular my ...

No NEVER, we hatesss them, NEVERSSSS.

Ahem.

If it makes the supplements more readily available in my neck of the woods then I'll buy them.

Then I'll convert them into storyteller system like they should be. And post those conversion tables on the net if it doesn't violate copyright, which it probably won't.

We Hatesss Them FOREVER. waves half eaten fish at moon

O.o; Well... I would have said something to that effect, just without the abuse of the S key...

Besides, I hate d20s anyways, they roll wrong, they don't roll as random as I'd like, and quite brankly, I've experienced nothing but pain when playing anything d20. (At least with DnD and SW.) I have a distinct fear, that Aberrant will choke on this system.

Hence my starting to convert Aberrant into TriStat dX. Strangely enough Storyteller can convert into TSdX quite well. I'm thinking on doing it like Silver Age Sentinels, but on a d12 scale... After all Aberrants own the market on power...

BrEaK It DoWn...

[Walker]

The idea of Aberrant becoming some sort of mewling halfwit offspring of AD&D and Aeon is enough to make otherwise reasonable people froth at the mouth.

Plus I hate it when THEY bring out a new edition, they stop producing anything new for the old edition and then bring out new editions of the supplements etc. ESPECIALLY when they change the rules radically so that anything you had from the old system is a real pain to convert to the new system and/or new stuff can't be converted to the old rules very easily. It leaves us gamers of modest means feeling, well, cheated out of our hard earned cash quite frankly.

However ... the only other person in my group that GMs regularly is a big fan of D20 so I might actually end up playing in a game of Aberrant. And like I said IF it means that the supplements and the game itself become more readily available then I guess I'll put up with it ... grudgingly.

Sorry Kirbs for going off on one, but as you pointed out it's a devisive issue. I'll say no more on the subject since I don't have very much nice to say, besides my spleen is now vented and I have a throbbing vein in my temple that needs massaging.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Well, D20 or ST, there is at least one bright spot here for us all.

More.

More story, more background. Oh, and fixed. I hope. Hopefully they will get past Blackwelder's one sided view of taint and the Teragen as the only legitimate avenue for Aberrant. Sounds from their willingness to 'reboot' much of canon that they might be leaning in that direction.

Sweet.

I'm tempted to pop over to the WW boards just to hear the screams.

[Kirby1024]

I guess in many ways, I like the thought of d20 Aberrant for the sole reason that, well, it's more stuff. As I've said publically elsewhere, d20 is not my favourite system. As I probably haven't said elsewhere, it's probably due to ignorance on my part - I disliked D&D, and I let that bleed into my view of the system.

And then I played a little game called Spycraft...

It opened my eyes a little, that's all I'll say. I've never been a fan of D&D. I'm still not, and I probably never will be. I'll play it, sure, and I've had GMs who've taken the setting and done marvellous things with it, but the idea of the setting as a whole never truly grasped me. Spycraft, on the other hand, showed me that d20 was not just D&D. It could be dramatic, it could be flairful, it could run a system that wasn't reliant on killing & looting. Then I was shown Mutants & Masterminds. It really was a system that could handle the Superhero genre. Not perfectly, sure, but Aberrant certainly doesn't either. Then I flipped through Stargate: SG1 (A Spycraft-driven setting). I've yet to play it, so I'll reserve judgement (although convenient droppings of hints to the previous Spycraft GMs means I may be shortly ), but from reading through, they really did grasp much of the idea of a show that I truly loved.

It really did show me how versatile d20 was as a generic system. You really can do so much with the system. Yeah, moving out of D&D takes work, but then, adapting Tri-Stat rules would take just as much effort. Storyteller had to make many massive adjustments to work the Super-power genre.

I am of the firm belief that d20 cannot, on it's own destroy a setting. It can be retrofit. It is possible. And I have great faith that Bates and the crew at White Wolf can pull off what many people have scoffed at as being impossible.

Besides, Bates was the man who wrote Trinity. He showed critics who thought that Trinity would just be Vampire in Space that Storyteller could do much more than Dark Fantasy. He gave us Adventure!, an incredible system for Pulp Stories, a world that was the antithesis of the World of Darkness's pessimistic mood.

I believe that Bates has the capacity to give us Aeon Trinity in d20 form without compromising the feel of the games. He's done it time and time again, and I have full confidence in this man.

Now, as to the real reasons why I'm salivating at this news:

• We get, finally, a unified Trinity. Aberrant's manning by a person with a different vision shows, quite visibly. Some additional internal consistency would certainly be nice in the meta-plot, and people have complained about the Aberrant War's lack of logic. It'll be nice to see Bate's take on the subject.
• White Wolf's continued support of the Aeon Trinity, despite bad sales, can be considered a poor business move. They didn't have to give us Adventure! - certainly the sales of Aberrant and Trinity weren't really high enough to warrant it. If WW are hell-bent on trying to sell the Aeon Trinity this time, I'm willing to support them.
• Frankly, it's looking more and more like it's this or nothing. I'd much prefer this. If Aeon d20 does kick off, and this does expose people out there to the goodness that is the Aeon Trinity, it's wholly possible that we get new goodies out of this. If we're really lucky, we get those goodies in both rulessets. I like this idea.

Frankly, I think this is good news all round. Plus, it lets me maintain use of what I still feel is the best catapult ammunition around - the d20*

*OK, I lie a little - d12s are probably better, due to their more angular form. Of course, if you want lethal, try a bag of d4s on ceramic tiles. Hurts like caltrops, slips like marbles...

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Ok, went over to the WW sites.

Jeeeeezus!!

Man, there are some people out there who have their underwear in a knot. I can understand not being happy. You like ST better than D20 and would prefer more ST product. I can even understand you saying you don't like D20 so much that you are going to not support the new material. But to equate it to rape? That I do not get my children, not at all.

[Jeremy Williams]

Probably because they have never been raped.

What about "its just a fricken game" do they not understand?

[Sphere]

It's not like it'll change anything for us anyway. Not for a good few years, if at all. They'll bring out a corebook and maybe a few of the supplements converted to d20 (certainly Teragen). But it seems unlikely that they'll bring out anything more than is already there using Storyteller/ WoD rules.

Storyteller, yech. Now there was a term I always thought was a tad pretentious. Embrace the geek within. I was born a GM and I'll die a GM.

[Dr. Arbitrary]

I think D20 Aeon will be worth my money if they introduce new material. Also, if they give dual stats to any new powers I would be absolutely thrilled. It would give D20 fans a reason to buy all the Storyteller material.

[Alex Craft]

They've pretty much said that the core books wouldn't be in both systems. Later, if the d20 stuff sells, they'll try to dual-stat supplements.

They claim to have unified the storylines more, which should be cool.

[Ian Watson]

Just wanted to point out this:

http://www.wolf-spoor.org/trinityuniverse

The Trinity Universe has its own logo now!