On The Doyen

[Sprocket]

Hello, everyone. As work progresses on Aberrant: Nexus, I'm now faced with writing up a small section dealing with the Doyen from the Trinity gameline, which only has limited information on them. And as I've done before, I'd like to hear what ideas on the Doyen you folks might have. Although this material will focus on the Doyen during the Nova Age, it should apply for Trinity and Adventure! chronicles as well.

I'll repost the canon Doyen data here (as seen below), followed by a few of my own ideas on the Doyen. The latter can and might well be changed or outright rejected, depending on the feedback from you folks. Any serious ideas about the Doyen that you'd be willing to share would be greatly appreciated.

CANON DATA
>1-The Doyen are a "transcendent" Forerunner alien civilization whose origins predate not only Humanity but the formation of the Solar System. Their original homeworld was likely destroyed when their star became a red giant. By "Forerunner" I mean the Doyen are one of those super-advanced alien civilizations That Came Before the currently-existing younger sapient species came into being. As for what "transcendent" means, please refer to Point #7 below.

>2-Doyen are exceedingly long-lived, but not immortal as they can be killed. Many if not most individual Doyen are older than Humanity.

>3-Doyen see themselves - unjustifiably - as being far superior to all the younger/lesser/upstart sapient species, and take offense at the idea that such beings would dare to question the "wisdom" of their elders. Doyen think that only they can comprehend the "big picture" of what is going on in the universe, and see their own actions as being in the best interests of the younger, ignorant sapient species. They're pretty full of themselves - arrogant, conceited, pretentious, you name it.

>4-Doyen consider themselves too evolved to engage in direct conflict. Stripped of pretension, this means that Doyen are inherently cowardly and deeply paranoid beings who like to get others to do their dirty work for them. This cowardice and paranoia are natural parts of the Doyen psyche - any Doyen who isn't a deeply paranoid coward is considered insane. This is the result of uncounted epochs of enjoying the advantages of their psionic powers and physical state - they are far less used to dealing with actual danger/threats on a regular basis as a human would be.

>5-Doyen perceive time differently than younger, short-lived species such as Humanity, Qin & the Chromatics. They are deliberate, long-term thinkers and shape plans over extremely long periods of time. In turn, they are very poor at thinking "on the spot" where quick reactions are required and can easily make mistakes in those circumstances. They also underestimate the apparent - from the Doyen POV - impatience of the younger species.

>6-The Doyen have been acting as patrons to those younger species who they feel may be useful to them, the Qin being the prime example. This allows the Doyen to exploit them as needed and also steer their natural development in directions that won't pose a threat to the Doyen or their interests.

>7-Doyen are creatures of pure noetic energy, condensed into the physical world. As they have a much more active link to the subquantum world they feel the disruption of quantum energy far more intensely than psions. While a psion finds it harder to manipulate noetic energy when the local area is bombarded with quantum energy, the Doyen are physically and mentally disrupted by the quantum flux — they flicker in and out of existence. They are reminded that humans have the capability within them to manipulate quantum energy and that is one of the very few things that scares the Doyen as a species. Like other psionic disruption, it is actually the quantum manifestation rather than the uncontrolled taint radiation that causes this effect, though the Doyen (along with every other group in Trinity) do not believe that taint and quantum differ.

>8-Doyen are resistant to mundane attacks - bashing and lethal - due to their quasi-solid bodies. What matter their bodies consist of resembles a one-meter rough sphere of rust-colored smoke which is tangible and viscous to the touch. Their bodies also give off slight, harmless discharges of static electricity. When they die, the cloud collapses into a small puddle of rusty goo.

>9-Doyen have powerful psionic capabilities in multiple Aptitudes, except for Quantakinesis. Both known specimens  (Ascent into Light pp.109-110 & Alien Encounter 1: Invasion pp.113-114) had each Telepathy Mode at 5; each Biokinesis, Psychokinesis and Vitakinesis Mode at 4; and each Clairsentience and Electrokinesis Mode at 3. Doyen also likely have each Teleportation Mode at 4, as the latter specimen used Translocation 4 to teleport itself off of Chrome-Prime after being exposed as a malevolent manipulator to the Chromatics. Both specimens also had Willpower and Psi ratings of 9. Exceptional Doyen might have higher ratings than those seen above at the Storyteller's discretion.

>10-Doyen can possess - similar to the Parasitic Possession Extra of the Dominate quantum power - Trinity-Era psions, who have all gone through the Prometheus Process. Psionically Inspired beings of any other kind - not to mention beings with other forms of Inspiration - cannot be possessed by Doyen.

>11-Doyen possess noetic biotechnology that is millennia ahead of both the Qin and 22nd Century Humanity.

MY OWN THOUGHTS
>1-I suspect that the Doyen have no direct means of attaining the level of power that a Quantum 6+ nova/aberrant is capable of. The most powerful Doyen may have access to Proxy-level powers in multiple Modes, but that would be the upper limit AFAICT.

>2-Instead of matching quantum powers directly, the Doyen must use their noetic biotech in order to do so. Huge noetic amplifiers, biotech mecha, doomsday weapons - anything a Forerunner civilization ought to be capable of creating, but interpreted as noetic biotech.

>3-The Doyen's Technology Rating is low for a Forerunner civilization, either at T12 or T13. Both listings are posted below for reference. As I suspect the Doyen technology base is entirely comprised of noetic biotech, the issues of formatting and tolerance overload would restrict the devices an individual Doyen may have access to. That is in addition to the effects of the Doyen's natural cowardice and deep paranoia - there's little reason why they would not be fearful of and extremely paranoid about their own kind. Any civilization where innovation is automatically considered suspect will find their technological development stagnating. Another question is the size and mobility of such devices. Also, there may be serious risks to the health of Doyen attempting to operate such hyper-powerful biotech devices.

 

T12 - Mature Interstellar Age: Spacecraft capable of quick interstellar travel are invented. The closest stars take hours to reach and those further out days or a few weeks as appropriate. Crossing an entire galaxy will take many weeks, months or years. Spacecraft capable of slow intergalactic travel are possible, but are limited in function as are T10 interstellar spacecraft and generally only travel to the satellite dwarf galaxies and star clusters of their home galaxy. Interplanetary travel is a matter of mere minutes. FTL communications systems are invented, allowing data to flow quickly as far as the network spreads. Molecular nanotechnology matures, allowing for the cheap fabrication of high-quality devices and organics. Mass production of diamondoid and other materials of diamond-quality strength. Means of feasibly producing exotic forms of matter - such as hyperdense matter - are developed. Affordable antimatter production allows it to be used as a compact energy source and as hyper-efficient rocket fuel. Medical nanotechnology makes nearly all older medical practices obsolete, as living bodies can be harmlessly taken apart and reassembled in perfect health in specialized vats. Minds can also be copied without requiring the original's destruction and "played back" into living bodies or AI formats. Neurotechnology matures; allowing for the invention of direct neural interfaces that only require skin contact to function, neural disruption weapons and "telepathic" technology. Sensors can automatically scan for nearly anything known to T12 science. Matter transmission between transceivers is invented. X-ray laser weapons and many forms of particle beam weapons are invented. Body armors are typically powered exoskeletons and incorporate diamondoid composites and exotic alloys. Gravity manipulation technologies mature; allowing for the development of personal flight gear, small AI-driven robot missiles, force fields, tractor/pressor beams and gravitic weapons. Hypergravity technology allows for very compact nuclear reactors and hyperdense armor to be created.

T13 - Early Intergalactic Age: Spacecraft capable of intergalactic travel are invented. The closest galaxies take weeks to reach and those further out months or years as appropriate. Total mass/energy conversion is the premier power source of T13 spacecraft and cities, with tiny antimatter reactors being used for small vehicles. Astronomical engineering is now possible, with moving planets and disassembling them for raw materials being commonplace. Dyson sphere and ringworld construction are also feasible. The T12 advances in exotic matter and nanotchnology are woven into the fabric of civilizations at this Technology Rating. "Self-healing" metals containing their own repair nanomachines are invented. Nanomachine swarms capable of reproducing themselves are developed. Medical nanomachines can assemble full-grown living bodies from a genetic sample in just a few days and imprint them with recorded minds. They can also grow cybernetic implants within living bodies without any need for surgery. The distinction between organic and machine sapience becomes academic, as organic sapients can "upload" their minds into AI formats and AIs can "download" themselves into organic bodies as a routine medical procedure. Lifespan length becomes indefinite, as proper medical treatments prevent aging and can transfer minds permanently into new bodies as desired. The creation of Von Neumann machines is now feasible, and can transform planets in almost any way desired - bioforming, reconstruction, disassembly - in just a few months. Matter transmission that do not require transceivers to receive and retrieve passengers and/or cargo is invented. Gamma-ray lasers, and matter disintegration weapons are developed. Time dilation effects can be created with force fields, even to the point of seemingly "freezing time". Personal force fields and stasis fields become standard defenses against T13 weaponry.

>4-Doyen cannot possess creatures that have not undergone some form of the Prometheus Process - don't even bother rolling the dice, such attempts always automatically fail. Instead, Doyen must rely on their Telepathy modes to manipulate those creatures. Attempting to possess a nova or aberrant is automatic suicide for a Doyen.

 

>5-The Doyen's culture is likely reactionary in the extreme if not completely hidebound when it comes to any form of change. They've had it good - in comparison to Humanity - for so long that they've gotten really comfortable with their status quo. Faced with anything that could disrupt their beloved status quo, their initial impulse will be to find out the cause of that change and nip it in the bud.

 

Soooo... your thoughts on all that, anyone?

[Sprocket]

Blinks, hears crickets chirping in the distance...

 

OK, I'll check on this thread periodicaly to see if any feedback is ever given. Will be posting at the RPGnet forums in hope of serious replies.

[Matt]

I'm not a big fan of the Doyen and have a hard time fitting them into the Nova Age.  As you stated, the doyen were represented as slow thinkers that because of their longer lifespan came to decisions over a longer period of time.  As such, I have a difficult time trying to fit them into the other games. 

 

Do you have something in mind for how to fit them into the setting? 

 
Here's a quote from Alien Encounters

The Doyen are mysterious, bodiless entities possessing tremendous psi abilities. Tuned far more closely to the universe's subquantum resonance than humans are, the Doyen sensed the growing Aberrant threat from light-years away. As they neared Earth, the Doyen sensed the human proxies burgeoning noetic talents, leading to a surreptitious first contact.

All Doyen vehemently oppose the Aberrants, seeing them as a danger to all sentient life, but a faction has decided that humanity itself will eventually succumb to the taint. The race doesn't favor direct action, though, preferring to manipulate others to achieve its goals. This faction searched for a race to act as its exterminators - and found the Chromatics.

 

If anything they may have sensed something odd after the Hammersmith Incident.  Perhaps they inspired Area 51 or other alien conspiracies.  I don't think they could have had any direct interaction then though. 

 

Was it ever stated why they vehemently opposed the Aberrants?  I know that the Aberrants threatened their very existence.  Was there ever an indecent written?

 

Here are some links if you haven't read them already.

http://www.rpgpost.com/topic/8686-trinity-rpg-doyen-sourcebook/

http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-285084.html

http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-390513.html

[Sprocket]

>I'm not a big fan of the Doyen and have a hard time fitting them into the Nova Age.  As you stated, the Doyen were represented as slow thinkers that because of their longer lifespan came to decisions over a longer period of time.  As such, I have a difficult time trying to fit them into the other games.

 

For Adventure!, I see the Doyen filling sort of the same role as Lovecraft's Elder Things, as written up in At The Mountains Of Madness. While they haven't done much research on Humanity in modern times, we can assume that a Doyen Xenology team would've been sent to Earth at some point in history. As "ultimate long-term thinker" is one of the Doyens' collective Hats, they'd want to keep an eye on any developing xenosapients as either potential resources or potential threats. Hence, you get bizarre abandoned ancient alien ruins in some truly isolated places on Earth, Luna, Mars, what-have you. Plus Doyen biotech would work quite nicely as dangerous Forerunner artifacts to be found, used, fought over and/or destroyed as the chronicle requires. They'd be absent background figures, in a Lovecraftian sense. AFA the Hammersmith vortex, I don't think the Doyen ever twigged to it - they may have some monster clairsentients, but they have an entire galaxy - if not multiple galaxies! - to scan & keep watch over. Besides, they might've thought that Humanity would destroy itself before it could ever become worth keeping regular tabs on.

 

For Aberrant, the Doyen are the established, stodgy, self-satisfied & opportunistically malign Forerunner civilization, & they're about to get the shock of their billion-year plus lives when/if they encounter nova space travelers. Just because the Doyen in the Trinity timelines didn't detect the use of quantum manipulation until the 2060s (the nova/aberrant Exodus) does not mean it can't happen earlier in the Aberrant timelines.

 

So the Doyen twig to the existence of novas early and predictably have the great-grandmother of collective freak-outs as a result. While their tech level is low for a Forerunner civilization (so they're not quite as overwhelming a threat to the younger civilizations as other Forerunners would be), panicked Doyen would make a viable straight-up enemy race for all eximorphic humans. Forerunner tech (as Doyen mega-biotech) vs quantum powers should be a dicey proposition if I'm extrapolating things correctly.

 

Note that this Doyen mass freak-out would be worse than the one they had in Trinity. There/then, the scary eximorphs have no idea that the Doyen existed. In an Aberrant chronicle, the Doyen would have been DISCOVERED by those scary eximorphs, making them an even more immediate threat from the Doyen POV.

 

>Was it ever stated why they vehemently opposed the Aberrants?  I know that the Aberrants threatened their very existence. 

They sensed the quantum disruption caused by the continuing nova/aberrant post-Exodus conflict, IIRC. I can only assume that a Doyen agent learned about the exact dangers of dealing with quantum powers, eximorphs & Taint the hard/painful way. The surviving agents informed the rest, cue mass freak-out.

 

>Was there ever an incident written?

Not to my knowledge. AFAIK, neither the novas nor the aberrants in the Trinity setting have any idea that the Doyen even exist, much less that they are so hostile to them.

 

Thanks for the links BTW, will review them posthaste. Any other questions?

 

[Sprocket]

OK, checked out the links. AFAICT, the third one's the winner AFA giving some more good, solid reasons for the Doyen psychology. Will look it over more carefully for possible use.

 

That said, the part of the Doyen not being able to reproduce and thus valuing each Doyen's continued life does clash with the proposed deep paranoia of the species. If their intra-species paranoia manifested itself as non-lethal social conflict, that could work with the whole "murders being extremely rare" bit. Just how paranoid can they be while maintaining enough social cohesion for projects like empowering human proxies/psions & guiding the Chromatics through accelerated technological development? How much "backstabbing" - not that the Doyen actually have backs - do they allow before bringing social censure down on the offenders?

[Rorx]

Hi Sprocket,

 

Just a thought, but if they are so freaked out that Humanity will ultimately all become tainted and/or spread the taint across the Universe making hard for them to come and go as they wish why haven't they simply manipulated a ELE or two in our direction? It would be easy to do during the post Exodus period when less attention is paid to space while countries try to recover from the Aberrant War.

[darksol-aeternium]

If the Doyen know anything at all about the trigger process for a Nova, they know that sending an ELE towards the earth is a surefire way to catalyze the creation of waves of Novas.  The mass-hysteria, panic, and general frantic scrambling from a scenario like that would have people's nodes popping all over the place.  And that's to say nothing of humanity's tendency to cease all infighting and galvanize against an exterior threat, the Doyen would have to try this ploy multiple times to make it work unless they can detonate the sun or something similar (which I'm pretty sure would create a quantum shockwave and kill them too).  After a series of ELEs come at the earth people start to refer to the old adage; One is happenstance, twice is coincidence, thrice is ENEMY ACTION.

[Rorx]

True, but I would not assume that they know anything about triggering process after all most if not all their experience is with the post-exodus era Aberrant/Novas and so they would not have had the opportunity to see one triggered.

 

Taking your comment as correct and extending it they would not want to have the Chromatics invading for the same reason...They would want Earth space to be as peaceful as possible - let humanity die of boredom.

[darksol-aeternium]

Or...let humanity kill itself off like it usually does.  Honestly, sending any outside threat at us is just making the problem (i.e. us) worse. 

[Sprocket]

Re: Rorx's & darksol's last few posts-

Rorx, I've got to agree w/ darksol about why the Doyen would not use an ELE against Nova Age Earth. For one thing, you've got to remember that we're talking separate timeline groupings here. The "future history" seen in Trinity need not apply to the Aberrant timelines. When the Doyen encounter novas in the Nova Age as I've outlined above, there does not have to be any immediate reason why they should make the connection between those quantum-using space explorers and the prehistoric semi-evolved primates that some of their xenologists studied a few million years ago. Extrapolating from the Doyen POV, it'd be like modern humans finding out that a troop of chimpanzees in Burundi had suddenly become fully sapient back in 1970 and have now attained an 18th Century-equivalent technological civilization. As Doyen are very bad at handling rapid changes like I've described, they'll be too busy panicking and having endless debates over how they should react to the new threat.

 

Also, there's nothing stating that all nova space travelers will have to have Adaptability and be recognizably human as a consequence. How many of the Daedelus League explore space by Bodymorphing into energy beings of one sort or another. (Spacecraft of some sort will be very useful for those bodymorphing travelers - they can't be bodymorphed all the time.) Novas w/ Adaptability can use Shapeshift or illusions to disguise their humanity, which they will do if they've got any common sense. "Properly Paranoid" is a trope that should always apply to First Contact scenarios.

 

Finally, the Doyen's Tech rating just isn't high enough for them to press a button & fling the kind of ELEs against Earth that you've mentioned. Yes, they're a Forerunner civilization w/ all the advanced tech that implies, but they're also very slow-developing and near-stagnant in the rate of technological development. I currently picture them as a T12 civilization - I'll add that listing to this post as a footnote. My reasoning on that is that they don't seem to have truly developed the means for true intergalactic travel. The farthest that the Doyen have gone according to canon is the 47 Tucanae globular cluster, which is close to the Small Magellanic Cloud. Which in turn is only a hop, skip & jump away from the Milky Way in intergalactic terms. Placing the Doyen at that rating also allows them to be a survivable threat in relation to novas & Nova Age Earth. The only ELEs they could employ are redirected asteroids, antimatter bombs & biotech-based "grey goo" nanotech weapons. Against all of which, IMHO, nova powers allow Humanity a fighting chance to survive.

 

T12 - Mature Interstellar Age: Spacecraft capable of quick interstellar travel are invented. The closest stars take hours to reach and those further out days or a few weeks as appropriate. Crossing an entire galaxy will take many weeks, months or years. Spacecraft capable of slow intergalactic travel are possible, but are limited in function as are T10 interstellar spacecraft and generally only travel to the satellite dwarf galaxies and star clusters of their home galaxy. Interplanetary travel is a matter of mere minutes. FTL communications systems are invented, allowing data to flow quickly as far as the network spreads. Molecular nanotechnology matures, allowing for the cheap fabrication of high-quality devices and organics. Mass production of diamondoid and other materials of diamond-quality strength. Means of feasibly producing exotic forms of matter - such as hyperdense matter - are developed. Affordable antimatter production allows it to be used as a compact energy source and as hyper-efficient rocket fuel. Medical nanotechnology makes nearly all older medical practices obsolete, as living bodies can be harmlessly taken apart and reassembled in perfect health in specialized vats. Minds can also be copied without requiring the original's destruction and "played back" into living bodies or AI formats. Neurotechnology matures; allowing for the invention of direct neural interfaces that only require skin contact to function, neural disruption weapons and "telepathic" technology. Sensors can automatically scan for nearly anything known to T12 science. Matter transmission between transceivers is invented. X-ray laser weapons and many forms of particle beam weapons are invented. Body armors are typically powered exoskeletons and incorporate diamondoid composites and exotic alloys. Gravity manipulation technologies mature; allowing for the development of personal flight gear, small AI-driven robot missiles, force fields, tractor/pressor beams and gravitic weapons. Hypergravity technology allows for very compact nuclear reactors and hyperdense armor to be created.

[Rorx]

My assumption was that the Doyen spotted the aberrants /taint/quantum during the final days of the war/ultimatum and so by the time they had investigated/reached a snap decision (for them) it would be into the post-Exodus years and few Nova/Aberrants around. Also that redirecting a few asteroids to collide in the belt and happen end up with significant debris heading to Earth would be easier and less noticeable than other more direct ELE methods like grey goo.

As for their tech in general I don't see much if any evidence for the using much if any in the books. All I can bring to mind is some transmitters and bugs one of their psion pawns was using/had on a space station that the Chromatics tried to retrieve during an attack in Earth space. Yes, they provided both the Proxies and the Chromatics with biotech, although it was noted that at least some of the Chromatics biotech seemed to be copies or based on early Orgotek designs. However in none of the encounters in the books does it mention the Doyen themselves having any tech with them. Hence I had always seen them as relying almost exclusively on their own powers.

I'm not saying they don't have oodles of tech availablehidden away somewhere, just that I don't recall any source which suggests they do.

On a side note can anyone remember /check what their Clairvoyance and Teleportation ratings are like ? I wondered how hard it would be for them to get a good enough Clairvoyant view intergalactic to do a Jump, after all ISRA managred to get about 15,000 LY to Karoo.

[Sprocket]

My assumption was that the Doyen spotted the aberrants /taint/quantum during the final days of the war/ultimatum and so by the time they had investigated/reached a snap decision (for them) it would be into the post-Exodus years and few Nova/Aberrants around. Also that redirecting a few asteroids to collide in the belt and happen end up with significant debris heading to Earth would be easier and less noticeable than other more direct ELE methods like grey goo.

As for their tech in general I don't see much if any evidence for the using much if any in the books. All I can bring to mind is some transmitters and bugs one of their psion pawns was using/had on a space station that the Chromatics tried to retrieve during an attack in Earth space. Yes, they provided both the Proxies and the Chromatics with biotech, although it was noted that at least some of the Chromatics biotech seemed to be copies or based on early Orgotek designs. However in none of the encounters in the books does it mention the Doyen themselves having any tech with them. Hence I had always seen them as relying almost exclusively on their own powers.

I'm not saying they don't have oodles of tech availablehidden away somewhere, just that I don't recall any source which suggests they do.

On a side note can anyone remember /check what their Clairvoyance and Teleportation ratings are like ? I wondered how hard it would be for them to get a good enough Clairvoyant view intergalactic to do a Jump, after all ISRA managred to get about 15,000 LY to Karoo.

 

Re: Your assumption-

OK, so that idea's feasibility is restricted to the Trinity timelines, & has no bearing on the Aberrant timelines. Fair enough. AFA the ELE "solution", that sounds like locking up the barn after most of the horses have ran out the door - or rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

Re: Doyen tech-

The reason we haven't seen much Doyen tech - aside from the Prometheus tanks & the original bioware matrices given to the Proxies (Patsies?) - is that the Doyen using it were spies performing infiltration in hostile territory. Add in their racial extreme paranoia & it becomes pretty clear as to why they'd send in their agents with a minimum of highly suspicious devices which the Proxies can recognize.

 

AFA them having the advanced tech I mentioned? Doyen are advanced psionics users, and that means that they require noetic biotech to handle things that their own psionics aren't quite up to handling. And as novas qualify as that sort of thing, plus they have to present a viable challenge to nova PCs...

 

I'm making the Doyen's tech base from whole cloth beacuse I have to. We never got anything close to a canon Doyen sourcebook the first time around.

 

Doyen Clairsentience & Teleportation-

Their ranges for those Aptitudes are the same as human psions AFAIK - Psi rating equals light-years. They must use biotech amplifiers to attain galaxy-covering ranges (Psi x 1,000 ly), which lets them cover the satellite galaxies of the Milky Way as well. IMHO, the Doyen don't qualify as a true intergalactic culture - they can't really scan the Andromeda Galaxy in detail, much less go there or find out about the locals.

 

FYI, they'd have to have amplifiers capable of producing (Psi x 1 million ly) ranges just to attempt to scan the Andromeda galaxy.

[Sprocket]

Apologies for the thread necromancy, but work has begun on Appendix #4 of Aberrant: Nexus, which covers the Doyen. Problem is, there's a question that's come up about the Doyen that I feel merits more than just an answer plucked out of my hat. Namely, should the Doyen still have the capability to reproduce themselves by the time period of the Aeon Continuum gamelines? Arguments have been made for both yes and no as to this issue, and I'd like to hear the opinions of you lot on it.

 

Yes: The Doyen have retained fully-detailed copies of their own genome, and are past masters of noetic biotech to the point that they make the Qin look primitive. Their physical state may prevent them from reproducing without aid, but they could easily have developed biotech devices to serve as the equivalent of artificial wombs. Requiring biotech to reproduce also allows for laws to be made to enforce population growth control and another non-lethal way for individual Doyen to backstab each other in their political/social conflicts.

 

No: The Doyens' attempt to evolve themselves into beings of pure noetic energy is based on a faulty understanding of the nature of the universe/quantum space. Like all other lifeforms in quantum space, the ur-Doyen were composed of a blend of quantum and noetic particles. They did not realize/accept/understand that becoming noetic energy beings - spirits, basically - requires them to die. As natural cowards, they are terrified of death & dying. This means that the Doyens' attempt at self-Uplift is not only botched - they've lost the capability to reproduce themselves by any means - their stated goal was deluded to begin with. This leaves the Doyen stuck as a species/civilization. They cannot self-evolve beyond their current state. They refuse to create new members of the ur-Doyen species for some reason. And finally, they are terrified of anything that could bring their million year-plus lifespans to a premature end. They've been civilized for at least five billion years, they think they're at the top of the galactic food chain and they intend to stay that way, no matter what. Their egos will allow for nothing less.

 

Myself, I prefer the "no" argument, as it reflects the Teragen's predicament in some ways. But that's just my 2 cents' worth, what do you folks have to say on the matter?

[Brothrrice]

Strictly from a story telling standpoint I prefer the second option. It reinforces the reasoning behind them being a race of cowards (too frightened to move forward, unable to replace their losses), and lends more gravity to interactions with them even on an individual basis.

[Sprocket]

OK, that sounds good. Many thanks for the response.

[Matt]

I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I agree that it should be "no."

[Sprocket]

I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I agree that it should be "no."

 

Right, that's good enough for me. The question on Doyen reproduction has been answered & the answer is no. Thanks much for your replies, folks.

[tytalan]

I have a Thought are Doyen the only transcendent beings what I'm suggesting is that they're two transcendent Races the Doyen who are noetic energy and another race ??? that are transcendent  quantum energy.  Both races fight each other thru proxy races like the Qin advancing them enough to be useful tools but not threats.  Fast forward to earth and Hammersmiths invention which releases both Quantum/???/stalwarts, Noetic/Doyen/mesmerists, and a third energy/Daredevils.  The third energy does not have a semi-transcendent race attached to it but it is capable of mixing with both Quantum and Noetic energies at the same time and is the only true path to full Transcendent. 

It was the Quantum Race that triggered the Nova age and the Doyen that arranged for its downfall and the reverse is also true.  Centuries after both the Age of Nova's and the PSi age the Daredevil's start returning as mankind encounters a new enemy   

[Sprocket]

Eh. That's an OK idea for an individual chronicles, but the canon just doesn't support it. You're on your own if you want to develop it.

The canon Aeon Continuum had direct quantum manipulation as being rare in the extreme among sapient species. A Quantum-using Precursor xenospecies would be best placed in a galaxy other than our own Milky Way. If the Doyen had known about Quantum-users prior to the Late Aberrant/Early Noetic Age, human novas/aberrants wouldn't've been such a huge surprise to them.

[Dave ST]

In my games, when a Doyen died, it petrified into a solid white substance comprised mostly of glucose.  They were ground up into a powder and then processed into delicious sticks that children would dip into various flavored packets of powder.

We then visited the moral implications of society's actions and whether or not those actions were justified based on facts like: if they didn't want to be eaten then why did the space gods make them delicious.  We came to the conclusion that Earth wasn't to blame, it was indeed the Doyen's fault for being yummy.

Y'know, just a thought.