Shadowrun 5th Edition

[Dave ST]

So, yeah, we've been talking about this heavily in chat, but not really so much here on the forums. A lot of the traffic we get might not visit the chat so for the sake of those individuals looking for conversation and discussion about this this new edition, here it is.

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I've been reading the PDF and I'm as far as the Matrix. So far I can't find anything new that they've added that I don't like. The multiple attack action was a great add and I'm glad that if you take that action, you can't take any other free actions. People seemed to abuse the 'free action' rule a lot in 2nd - 4th editions.

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Also, just the first page in the Matrix chapter sums up and describes the Matrix and how it works better than the entire Matrix chapter in 4th Edition. So far from what I've read the entire book is filled with awesome explanations and examples of rules and how they work.

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So far, that's what I have, discuss and enjoy.

[Sailor OOC]

Actually, if I may in regards to the Fee Action "abuse".

I've noticed that when people play SR after playing D&D or other d20 derivatives, people seem to think a free action works the same. I think it is more not knowing the rules well over abusing the rules.

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I think I'd just put that out there.

[Dave ST]

Normally I'd agree, but most system we play generally don't specify how many free actions we get, since that are 1. free and 2. so damn simple it's easy to justify more than one.

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SR5e specifically states you get 1 Free Action 2 Simple Actions or 1 Free Action and 1 Complex.

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On the plus side, you have a lot more options for the various actions now too.

[Sailor OOC]

Well... that is hard to mess up in 5th. Although reloading now will take forever in combat. Thank god for initiative passes, right?

[Dave ST]

Depends on what weapon you're using. Clips are still the fastest if you have a smartlink system, but I generally go with clips or speed loaders. And yes, thanks to the new initiative system, if you are fast enough you can kill everyone before they even draw their guns.

[jameson (ST)]

Hmm. I've heard good things about 5th, and from what I saw in the previews they put out I am kinda optimistic. I was glad for the return of the priority system since I found making a character in 4th to be a chore beyond my ability to withstand, and I liked how they found a way to balance it to some degree for the various races and awakened (though from what I can tell you can still play a mundane and make magic your dump choice without any 2nd thought).

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The reckless casting for mages seems like a nice touch as well, for instance

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I think the real place for a new SR edition to shine is Matrix and Decking though, as both often felt awkward at best, or like over complicated sub-games at worst. Hopefully they really smoothed out play with both of those options.

[Dave ST]

since I found making a character in 4th to be a chore beyond my ability to withstand

Quoted for truth. I'm so on board with you on that.

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So far, from what I've read, thay have. It's brilliant so far. The decker is not relegated to cyber ninja anymore, if you want you can run through the Matrix kicking down doors and making as much noise as you want (and sometimes, honestly, you might have to). In combat scenes a Decker doesn't have to sit idly by while the Sams do the work, they can launch attacks on equipment and devices, bricking them so they don't work or just short out completely, ruining them.

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"Well, we'll just shut our gear off!"

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You can, but they gave most gear a wireless function, that helps the gear perform better while it's linked up wireless to your PAN. By disabling your device to it can't be hacked, you handicap yourself a bit (but are protected from hacking attempts).

[Jordan]

I'm just up to Combat at the moment but I do like how they made Mystic Adepts less sucktacular. Now instead of splitting your Magic score between your Adept side and your spell caster you get to use your full score for both; the only caveat being that the Adept power points aren't free. the cost 2 Karma per 1 power point.

I also like how Aspected Magicians were added to the core mix of spell slingers.

[SalmonMax]

I'm encouraged by what I see so far, but I am a little concerned about the idea that someone can munch out Initiative and get a huge number of actions per turn...and that advantage essentially making it a 'winning' strategy, with other types of character build becoming obsolete.

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To what extent would you guys say 'initiative is king?'

[jameson (ST)]

Going back to my 2e and 3e days though, that's as much a design feature as it is a bug. If you spend the essence, or magic, to rate a huge init score you should get a commensurate bonus. The's the GM's job to make sure that every run doesn't devolve down to "who goes first" however either throwing enough non-combat into the game to balance things, or throwing monkey wrenches into the combat mix such that being the init king doesn't become the insta win every time.

[Matt]

In most of my 2nd edition games it seemed that wired reflexes was the norm for runners. How does init work in 5th?

[Jordan]

Also, with this current iteration, they have added a slight random factor to the initiative generation that even characters with average or "normal" initiatives might get lucky enough to pull a second initiative pass out of the hat. Then there are defense interrupt actions which will soak up your initiative rather quickly. High initiative does not mean indestructibility, Nor does it mean you are a super badass killer. All it means is that you react fast and often in a combat situation. the rest depends on the characters involved

[Dave ST]

Can someone field Chosen's question? I'm at work and don't have my PDF with me.

[Matt]

I went ahead and purchased the book. It appears to work like 2nd edition, with your initiative on round 1 followed by init-10 on subsequent rounds. Each character gets to go in the first round, which I don't think was the case in 2nd. It's been forever so that my not be correct.

[jameson (ST)]

That's how 2nd ed played as well. pretty sure 3e did play the same but I only ever played a couple sessions with a terrible gm so I don't remember.

[Matt]

It is the same in 3rd, which I bought but never played.

[Gabe OOC]

Also, with this current iteration, they have added a slight random factor to the initiative generation that even characters with average or "normal" initiatives might get lucky enough to pull a second initiative pass out of the hat. Then there are defense interrupt actions which will soak up your initiative rather quickly. High initiative does not mean indestructibility, Nor does it mean you are a super badass killer. All it means is that you react fast and often in a combat situation. the rest depends on the characters involved

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Also, the new Blitz option for Edge spending allows you to roll the maximum +5d6 for Initiative, so even slower characters can get a lot of actions if they need it.

[Dave ST]

I'm not sure how well the "everyone goes in the first phase" thing is gonna work out. I don't see why Just Johnny with 8 initiative is going to be going at the same time Slick Rick is with his score of 38...

[Jordan]

I think it'll work fine. Slick Rick still gets to go first, and still gets more actions than Just Johnny. Just Johnny just gets to actually do something before falling to the meat grinder that is Slick Rick. I know anyone who isn't an initiative monster is going to appreciate that.

[Dave ST]

Any GM worth his salt will be having his slow corpsec guys spending group Edge to seize initiative, automatically go first in the action phase, and lay waste to the fastest runner on the team.

[SalmonMax]

That'd be a bit metagame unles the NPC team had reason to know who was fastest.

[Dave ST]

It's not meta in the second round after they've seen what everyone can do. Wired Reflexes and Increased Reflexes are visible once they've been activated, its easy to know who needs their ware bricked, and who needs burst fire APDS to their knee caps.

Let's face it, if the runners are wiping out all opposition in a single round, the GM needs to step up his game anyway.

[SalmonMax]

Oh well, in the second round sure. No question there.

[Krul]

Actually, I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that most regular mok's don't get much of an edge rating, if any at all.. that's the province of PC's and special NPC's.

[Dave ST]

Groups of Grunts and Lieutenants still get Group Edge, and if the GM is running them with group initiative, then spending one point of Edge to seize initiative applies to all the Grunts for that round.

[jameson (ST)]

I read a good chunk of the char gen chapter last night. Aside from it's less than stellar clarity on certain things, and a generally poor layout IMO, it seems that it'll be a little more difficult to twink character's into whirling dervishes of death and destruction right out of the gate. That's a plus.

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I felt it was awkward how the prioritization section was discussed as part of "Step one" rather than as its own thing. Likewise I was confused and then annoyed at how the chose to convey the use and meaning of the special attribute bonus points that you get from choosing your metatype. It was IMO needlessly obscure. I actually found that was the case in a lot of that chapter however. The writing was too complex for it's own good in spots and clarity was the losing participant in every case.

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I also glanced at the Rigger chapter long enough to not see anything about technomancer riggers. I seem to recall one could play that option in 4e (though for the life of me that could have just been a nightmare/bad acid trip). Am I mis-remembering or was that removed?

[SalmonMax]

Riggers are now only people who have special implants. Technomancers can't rig, unless they have a special 'echo' ability gained via Submersion...which is not a starting option.

[jameson (ST)]

So it is possible, but not for "starting" characters. That's a shame, the idea seemed really interesting when I saw it in 4e.

[SalmonMax]

Yeah, one of my first 4e characters was a 'techno-rigger.'

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But they give Technomancers a whole set of unique abilities in the Matrix. They're not just hackers who don't need commlinks anymore.

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So it's fair, I think, to keep rigging something that's specialized. It means they can give riggers special candy, which is good, IMO. Because a 'pure' rigger was never really a thing in 4e. You had to do something else too.

[jameson (ST)]

paging through magic now ... I really like the update to totems/mentor spirits. Not sure if this is a carry over from 4e or not (never got to play a magic character in 4e), but allowing Adepts to gainm powers and skill bonuses from a mentor spirit is pretty cool. Mystic adepts really get a huge boost from mentor spirits actually since they would gain all of the bonuses (unless I missed something).

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I also looked into that submergence thing you mentioned and saw that even after 3 levels with that power maxed out you would still be a kinda crappy rigger (especially since you would have thrown a ton of Karma at submerging 3 times), compared to a cybered rigger using a top notch VCR. I'm kinda happy & kinda disappointed. On the one hand I am all for having the cyber stuff get an edge over magic (since magic already has a ton of edges on cyber in other places), but on the other hand I do wish that they had kept the idea of technomancer riggers as a thing, they could simply have required a choice between being a magic VR pilot or a magic code monkey where the one prevents (or minimizes) the other. Then again maybe this is just me railing against the degree of pigeon holing that SR still has compared to most of the stuff I have been playing in the recent years. *shrug*

[SalmonMax]

Mystic adepts have to choose between the adept bonus or the magic bonus...they have an advantage in that they can choose either one, but they don't get both.

[jameson (ST)]

Huh, missed that. Rats

[Gabe OOC]

Huh, missed that. Rats

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Yeah, Mentor Spirits were technically permissible for regular Adepts, but the bonuses were so slanted towards spellcasting and spirits that they were practically pointless in that respect. 5e has that rectified. Incidentally, I'm working on a conversion of 4e spirits, traditions and mentor spirits from Street Magic and going to throw in the 5e builds as well for completeness.

[Gabe OOC]

Ok - just the 4e conversions for spirits and mentor spirits... but still, PRESENTING!!!!

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Gabe's Big Box of 5e Converted Magic Wiz-Bang - Part One

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Spirits

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Minimum attribute ratings for when materialized is 1.

Spirits have the listed skills at ratings equal to their Force.

On the physical plane, spirits' Walking Rate is (Agility x 2) & Running Rate is (Agility x4). They can move in any direction ignoring gravity. The Running skill allows them to 'sprint' for +2 meters per hit.

For every 3 full points of Force a spirit has, it has one optional power. A spirit can't change the optional power it has.

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Guardian Spirits

B: F+1, A: F+2, R: F+3, S: F+2, W: F, L: F, I: F, C: F, EDG: F/2, ESS: F, M: F

Initiative: (F x 2) + 3 + 2d6

Astral Initiative: (F x 2) + 3d6

Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Blades, Clubs, Counterspelling, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat

Powers: Astral Form, Fear, Guard, Magical Guard, Materialization, Movement, Sapience

Optional Powers: Animal Control, Concealment, Elemental Attack, Natural Weaponry [DV = Force P, AP -], Psychokinesis, Optional Combat Skill

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Guidance Spirits

B: F+3, A: F-1, R: F+2, S: F+1, W: F, L: F, I: F, C: F, EDG: F/2, ESS: F, M: F

Initiative: (F x 2) + 2 + 2d6

Astral Initiative: (F x 2) + 3d6

Skills: Arcana, Assensing, Astral Combat, Counterspelling, Perception, Unarmed Combat

Powers: Astral Form, Confusion, Divining, Magical Guard, Materialization, Sapience, Search, Magical Cloak

Optional Powers: Engulf, Enhanced Senses [Hearing, Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision or Smell], Fear, Influence

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Plant Spirits

B: F+3, A: F-1, R: F+2, S: F+4, W: F, L: F, I: F, C: F, EDG: F/2, ESS: F, M: F

Initiative: (F x 2) + 2 + 2d6

Astral Initiative: (F x 2) + 3d6

Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Counterspelling, Perception, Unarmed Combat

Powers: Astral Form, Concealment, Engulf, Fear, Guard, Materialization, Sapience, Silence

Optional Powers: Accident, Confusion, Movement, Noxious Breath, Search

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Task Spirits

B: F, A: F, R: F+2, S: F+2, W: F, L: F, I: F, C: F, EDG: F/2, ESS: F, M: F

Initiative: (F x 2) + 2 + 2d6

Astral Initiative: (F x 2) + 3d6

Skills: Artisan, Assensing, Astral Combat, Perception, Unarmed Combat

Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Binding, Materialization, Movement, Sapience, Search

Optional Powers: Concealment, Enhanced Senses [Hearing, Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision or Smell], Influence, Psychokinesis, Optional Technical/Physical Skill

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Mentor Spirits

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Adversary

All: +2 for Con tests

Magician: +2 dice for either Counterspelling or Banishing Tests [must choose one]

Adept: 2 free ranks of Kinesics

Disadvantages: If you are given orders or instructions that do not match your own desires and intentions, you must make a Charisma + Willpower (3) test or refuse the order, going with your own decision, regardless of the consequences.

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Artificer

All: +2 dice for one Technical skill of your choice

Magician: +2 dice for Enchanting tests

Adept: 1 free rank of Improved Ability (Technical Skill only)

Disadvantages: When you find something you have never seen before, or a problem you can't easily solve, you must make a Charisma + Willpower (3) test to not examine the situation at length. You won't put your life in danger, but will take the next safe opportunity to do so.

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Bull

All: +2 for Leadership tests

Magician: +2 for Combat Spells, preparations and spell rituals.

Adept: 2 free ranks of Critical Strike

Disadvantages: If you don't get your way, you must make a Charisma + Willpower (3) test - or you dig in and demand compliance.

[Dave ST]

I've always felt the thresholds for the mentor spirits were a bit low, since they are usually attributes the magician/adept already has high values in.

[Jordan]

So, I'm just gearing up to run a shadowrun game for my table top group. I figured I'll keep you posted on how the system handles in action.

I've only got 3 players so I decided to use the Prime Runner rules with 2 adjustments. 1 the Max Karma players can spend on Nuyen at creation is 20 (for an extra 40,000 Nuyen max) and the gear restriction did not increase.

As I've been working on my game I've noticed that Notoriety doesn't have a mechanical effect on Reputation. Since I have not been able to find anything at all (and Ive been through the book numerous times) I'm running Reputation as follows: Street Cred adds to social limit of anyone who should know your reputation as per the book. Notoriety reduces Social Limit from Street Cred on a 1 to 1 basis. Public Awareness determines who is aware of your Reputation and thus who you get the Street Cred bonus with.

Oh, and Trauma Patches? They don't need Wireless either. They just work.

[The Story Guide]

Cool! Please do let us know how it plays. I love the theme of Shadowrun, but each time I've played it I've wanted to bash my brains out from the complicated mechanics. It'd be nice to see if 5th Ed is something I can wrap my head around.

[SalmonMax]

Agreed! Except the bashing brains part. But very much wanting to know how it plays!

[Jordan]

So the game is meant to feel more like a heist movie rather than bloodthirsty mercs willing to sell their own mothers and grannies for a few nuyen... Inspiration is coming from things like Oceans 11, The Italian Job, Human Target (TV series), Burn Notice (TV series) and the like.

We have a Human looking Elf who is an ex-Seraphim member. He's is big on the espionage and face skills. An Ork Decker. young and less experienced than the others. He's the "Matt Damon" of the group (referring to the main character trio of the Ocean's 11 series). The last is a Human Urban Shaman. She's a conjuring specialist and trained as a private detective.

All of them have a SIN in one form or another. Their first Run will involve an art heist, crazed cultists, Aztechnology, and a petrified Magician from the last age of magic.

[jameson (ST)]

Their first Run will involve an art heist, crazed cultists, Aztechnology, and a petrified Magician from the last age of magic.

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This sounds eminently promising. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.