Talk of an Official Aeon Gameline Reboot

[Sprocket]

Apologies in advance for my lack of posting; I've been dealing with RL interference, medical issues and a very nasty case of writer's block.

Anyhow, it seems that the crew at Onyx Path are serious about doing a reboot of all 3 Aeon continuum gamelines. There's a big discussion thread on that here http://forum.rpg.net/printthread.php?t=664550&pp=10&page=1.

So, what do you folks think of it? If it all works out, I'd like to see what they do with Aberrant - hopefully they will not nerf the novas' power levels like Aberrant d20 did.

[Charlotte]

I'll just copy/paste my post from that thread.

Aberrant's one of my favorite settings, its bright spots outshining its warts. But the warts are still kinda there, and if I had to do it all over again, here's what I'd like to see in Ultimate Aberrant:

1) A Launchpad For My Stories, Not Someone Else's: No, metaplot did not knock down my door, kick me in the sack, sell my World of Warcraft character on the black market and tell Interpol I like My Little Pony a little too much. It did not spray a firehose of acid into my pants, nor did it light the interior of my bum on fire.

Here's what metaplot does instead: every setting detail that goes off of an event that happened in the metaplot is one I can't use without some degree of modification, since it's based off events that didn't happen or foretells events my players are already read up on. That translates into large chunks of books that I don't wind up using, diminishing the value of them for me. Yes, I can modify the plot... or, just come up with my own, which to me is the purpose of an RPG in the first place. The counterweight of deriving inspiration from the metaplot isn't effective in the slightest since I never pull inspiration from the metaplot. In fact, oftentimes I have to purposefully shelve ideas that I think are good simply because they also wound up in the metaplot and my players can read about the metaplot too, since they have yet to allow themselves to be locked in an internet-free basement for a few years while we play Pretend Superheroes together.

I think metaplots are plain ol' dumb. Let novels be novels. Let game settings be game settings. They aren't the same thing. And related to that...

2) Leave Some Things Open: The objectively greatest D&D setting is Eberron. (I define "objectively greatest" to mean "one I like most.") The reason why is because Keith Baker realized that any answer he could come up with for the big mysteries in the setting - what's up with the Mourning? How 'bout them gods? - are peanuts compared to the answer a creative GM can come up with. Ask a dozen Eberron GMs what caused the Mourning in their campaigns and watch their eyes light up as they give you a dozen answers. Their personal stake is greater; their creative juices are flowing more; the answer they give will always be a surprise, especially to their players.

Details are great, but if a big mystery is unknown to all but a tiny, tiny few, I think it should be unknown, period. Stuff like who killed Slider, or why all the superpeople are here, or whether or not Proteus is real, or if the higher-up Terats really CAN "fix" Taint, etc etc. would earnestly really work better with no official answer. Yes, you can change it all in your personal canon - just like you can say "Deckard is human" even though Ridley Scott out-and-out said he's a Replicant. But I can tell you I was a little deflated when I heard him come down and confirm it. Suddenly a wide array of possibilities and interpretations were collapsed down to one. Likewise, I was happiest with Aberrant as an RPG when the core book was all I knew.

Nothing gets people speculating and gets creativity flowing like a box you don't know the contents of, and an RPG setting should stimulate the creativity of the players and the GM.

3) 1998 Ended in 1998: I sure am glad all those novas were around to help with the disasters that plagued the world in the day the Y2K bug hit. Can you imagine if we didn't have superpeople around? What a horrible fate would befall THAT world! Ha ha!

Any game world set in a future date that's come and gone feels extra-dated. 2008 is nigh-on half a decade ago now, not some not-too-distant future. If Aberrant's getting a makeover it should be about our own current-day hopes, dreams and fears. People with ridiculous amounts of money saying they'll leave society and won't you just be sorry when we're gone 'cause we're so important has a different ring after the financial crisis than before it, so maybe Teras could use a rewording or two if I'm to feel any sympathy for its adherents.

Likewise, does anyone look back at the Attitude Era of World Wrestling Entertainment and say to themselves, "yes, modeling a mercenary after Stone Cold Steve Austin was the best idea?" There are large chunks of Aberrant that have aged poorly. They can hit the bin.

4) Please, No Goddamn Self-Loathing: It's a superhero RPG. Admit it, and be proud. Trinity never apologizes for having faster-than-light travel and aliens and psychic powers even though that stuff is utterly not the "science" part of "science fiction." Adventure! never stammers about how killer apes and jet packs are all kind of silly, aren't they? We're so sorry for having them! But pick up Aberrant and be lectured on infinite repeat about how no, honest, no superheroics here despite the fact that one of the pivotal events in the metaplot is one flying dude in magic underwear beating on another flying dude who wears a red CAPE.

I'm not saying that the setting needs to be altered to accommodate dinosaur men from the Hollow Earth - although why they fit into one game in the same timeline but not another, I have to ask. I'm saying that for sure, the tone could be a lot more welcoming to the millions of fans who're naturally predisposed to stories about men and women who can lift tanks and outrun bullets. Be inclusive. Tell them that you have a wonderfully different take on the thing they love, rather than tell them that the thing they love is not here. No, I'm not referring to any essay from Aberrant in particular why do you ask

[Mr Fox]

Nice post. I'd love to see a reboot, especially if it is a reboot of the entire timeline. I especially agree with your last point Mike. Aberrant is all about what would you do if you had super powers, don't be ashamed of it, embrace it.

As a storyteller, I'd like to see a little less meta-plot and a little more open ended.

[Sprocket]

Good point about the datedness of the pro wrestling aspect & other such cultural deitrus. If something more up to date absolutely had to be substituted for that "sport", it'd likely be straight Mixed Martial Arts tournaments w/ nova contestants.

One other thing that irked me was how the writers failed to emphasize that the Metaplot was *NOT* carved in stone, the Aberrant War was NOT inevitable and could be defused (at least somewhat) given sufficient intelligent action on part of the player characters in an Aberrant chronicle. Irreversibly doomed settings really should have gone out with the oWoD, not dragged into the Aeon Continuum.

[SalmonMax]

I don't think that's Mike's point.

It's not that he felt it was etched in stone. It's that they spent a lot of page count and book content expounding on the metaplot...giving any GM the unfortunate choice of either deciding to go his own way and essentially waste a good deal of his investment in the book...or following the plot as written and get max value for the book...but sacrifice his control over the game world and risk the players having a lot of meta-knowledge.

If I read correctly, he's asking not that they make the metaplot optional...it's that they don't devote nearly as much book space to material useful only for it.

[Jeremy]

First, awesome that they're rebooting it. Second, I agree utterly with Mike on the metaplot and setting stuff. In fact, I agree with those words of yours. You win this thread and that thread too, Mike.

Other than all the theme and setting stuff, I'd obviously suggest they cut out the Quantum 6 or higher material altogether. Maybe for NPCs... but speaking as a player of that Children of Quantum Fires game, we were trying so utterly hard not to break the world, even when our characters could radically transform the setting at large if they wanted.

Novas with Megas at rating 5s far outstretched any baseline. I remember Dec/Procyon mentioning how a group of relatively new players trashed Proteus over the course of a campaign. Which feeds into Mike's comment about how you want to keep many of these secret things completely unanswered, so the opposition or 'truth' can be more reasonable and plausible to match.

Also, Megas do need streamlining if not replacement. Much of the description of the 1-5 scale did not exactly match the mechanical reality.

[Sprocket]

I don't think that's Mike's point.

It's not that he felt it was etched in stone. It's that they spent a lot of page count and book content expounding on the metaplot...giving any GM the unfortunate choice of either deciding to go his own way and essentially waste a good deal of his investment in the book...or following the plot as written and get max value for the book...but sacrifice his control over the game world and risk the players having a lot of meta-knowledge.

If I read correctly, he's asking not that they make the metaplot optional...it's that they don't devote nearly as much book space to material useful only for it.

Ah, my bad. Thanks for the clarification.

My overall thinking on the matter was that the writers made the mistake of treating Aberrant like an oWoD historical setting such as Mage: Sorcerer's Crusade - whatever achievements the players made in the chronicle could never really affect the predetermined course of history. Instead of focusing so much on the metaplot, they should have adopted talking points like "The Future Is Unwritten" & "No Fate But What You Make" beforehand. If anything, the metaplot should only be what happens if the players screw up & fail to make any meaningful positive change to the setting.

[Sprocket]

First, awesome that they're rebooting it. Second, I agree utterly with Mike on the metaplot and setting stuff. In fact, I agree with those words of yours. You win this thread and that thread too, Mike.

Other than all the theme and setting stuff, I'd obviously suggest they cut out the Quantum 6 or higher material altogether. Maybe for NPCs... but speaking as a player of that Children of Quantum Fires game, we were trying so utterly hard not to break the world, even when our characters could radically transform the setting at large if they wanted.

Novas with Megas at rating 5s far outstretched any baseline. I remember Dec/Procyon mentioning how a group of relatively new players trashed Proteus over the course of a campaign. Which feeds into Mike's comment about how you want to keep many of these secret things completely unanswered, so the opposition or 'truth' can be more reasonable and plausible to match.

Also, Megas do need streamlining if not replacement. Much of the description of the 1-5 scale did not exactly match the mechanical reality.

If I'm reading you correctly, it sounds like there was insufficient guidance material on playing 2ndGen novas and similarly high-powered nova characters in both the canon books (Aberrant Players Guide) and the fanworks (A Breed Apart). For my part, belated apologies for that oversight. The problem of world-breaking shouldn't detract from enjoyment of a high-powered chronicle.

Problem is, without going the oWod Mage route (Archmages in a covert cold war enforced by king-hell levels of Paradox and Mutually Assured Destruction), I'm at something of a loss to figure out what would work to fix that problem and be thematically appropriate. I suppose it's one reason that the cosmic-level Marvel characters only rarely have exploits on Marvel Earth-616. They're just too big story-wise to work well in anything Earthside except on rare occasion - Annihilators: Earthfall comes to mind.

AFA scrapping the Q6+ rules, that sounds more crippling the game than correcting it AFAICT. I'd hope that the new version of Aberrant could be used for chronicles at all power levels with equal ease.

AFA streamlining Mega-Att.s, did you think that they were overpowered or were the game mechanics too clunky for easy in-game use? Were they both?

[The Story Guide]

That's what I like about the Savage Worlds set-up: You do have a meta-plot provided, in the Plot Point Campaign (PPC), that will radically alter the setting if you run characters through it. You are also provided with a number of Savage Tales (effectively mini-plots) to run with the PPC or with your own campaign, and a Savage Tale generator to create random adventures. The PPC usually takes up about 10-15% of the book, and there's more Savage Tales than that. It's felt like a good balance between the pages and ink spent on a player-accessible meta-plot or preset adventures, and the tools for a GM to easily create their own content.

[Sprocket]

That's what I like about the Savage Worlds set-up: You do have a meta-plot provided, in the Plot Point Campaign (PPC), that will radically alter the setting if you run characters through it. You are also provided with a number of Savage Tales (effectively mini-plots) to run with the PPC or with your own campaign, and a Savage Tale generator to create random . The PPC usually takes up about 10-15% of the book, and there's more Savage Tales than that. It's felt like a good balance between the pages and ink spent on a player-accessible meta-plot or preset adventures, and the tools for a GM to easily create their own content.

Thanks for the heads-up on Savage Worlds, I'll have to take a good look at it sometime soon. That definitely sounds like something the crew at Onyx Path should take heed of in their Aberrant revision.

[Mr Fox]

Personally, I would be very disappointed if they didn't include rules for high level games. Not every game should go there, but it ought to be an option for those who do wish to play with gloves off. I just would like to see consistent and well thought out rules for those upper power levels. Sure Q6+ can break the world, but it doesn't have to be because the rules themselves are crap, the way Mastery was. That was just poorly worded and read as if it was hastily thrown together.

[Sprocket]

Personally, I would be very disappointed if they didn't include rules for high level games. Not every game should go there, but it ought to be an option for those who do wish to play with gloves off. I just would like to see consistent and well thought out rules for those upper power levels. Sure Q6+ can break the world, but it doesn't have to be because the rules themselves are crap, the way Mastery was. That was just poorly worded and read as if it was hastily thrown together.

Fair enough, though I'd like to see your take on how 2ndGen novas could operate at cosmic/Galactus-equivalent power levels.

BTW, there's been a lot of excellent commentary here on fixing Aberrant v1.0's problems, but AFAIK it's the RPGNet thread that's been getting the official attention. Would reposting stuff from here over there be a good idea? I'm not registered at RPGNet, though I've lurked there for years.

EDIT: Whoops, you're already way ahead of me on that, Mr. Fox. Thanks for that post on RPGNet.

[Mr Fox]

I just registered today over at RPG in order to comment in that thread. \

As far as 2nd gens at cosmic power levels, I've always maintained that when you get to those power levels it's not really about dice, it's about the story. I treat the rules provided in the APG for powers over L3 to be basically examples of what you can do with powers at that scale, not really about, you have 'x' dice to roll, now see if you can beat 5 successes... Over Q6 the game really does break as currently written because someone at those power levels really can wave a hand and wipe out a city, or worse.

example: Cross-time travel - I can cause a global economic collapse. Simply step into a world that has been wiped out by plague and empty out fort knox and then drop all that gold onto the open market back on your main world. Sure it will take some trips to carry all that gold, but it's doable and it wouldn't take as much as people might think, and that's only an L4 power.

[Aeonian]

Actually, Second Gens might have the potential access to more power, but it is just more power with better control. A well played 2G would have more finesse, character, and wisdom at some point where the 1G lacked. 3G's are just very, very specific novas that have control over one strict thing (like fire, electricity etc...). In other words tighter themes than even 2Gs had in our CoQF, and probably at lesser points. But, after the 3rd Gens, things are pretty much in stasis with what the 3rds have.

I think it is more of how the ST runs their game and how the players receive the power that is more important than hard stats. Although tweaking the system to be more inherently balanced is good. I mean, you'd not sail a boat prone to capsizing because of it's weight distribution and a poorly designed keel, right?

[Sprocket]

Actually, Second Gens might have the potential access to more power, but it is just more power with better control. A well played 2G would have more finesse, character, and wisdom at some point where the 1G lacked.

I wouldn't lump in "wisdom and/or character" with "natural/inborn finesse w/ one's quantum capabilties, myself. AFAICT, 2ndGen novas have the advantage of dealing with quantum energies from Day 1, so they would natually be more used to channeling it to greater effect than their 1stGen predecessors. Last I heard, wisdom and character still comes only from experience & instruction from (hopefully) wise elders in the case of the former, & I don't see that changing even in the case of 2ndGen novas.

On a slightly unrelated topic, does anyone have an idea on Onyx Path's timetable for the new Aeon Continuum gamebooks? If they're coming out with it relatively soon, my Aberrant: Nexus fanbook project may be rendered irrelevant. Thoughts on this, anyone?

[IanW]

On a slightly unrelated topic, does anyone have an idea on Onyx Path's timetable for the new Aeon Continuum gamebooks? If they're coming out with it relatively soon, my Aberrant: Nexus fanbook project may be rendered irrelevant. Thoughts on this, anyone?

I wouldn't expect to see anything before 2014. Aberrant probably later than that.

Your Nexus book won't be rendered irrelevant in that we'll immediately be covering the same topic, however it the Trinity Continuum will change the setting sufficiently that it may not be 100% relevant to the new setting.

[Sprocket]

Much thanks for the reply, Ian. Nexus wasn't going to be including anything but the broadest of brush-stokes AFA the Aeon Continuum setting beyond expanding on the Universe One (Trinity canon) & Universe Two (Aberrant canon) concept a bit.

As it is work on AB:Nexus has recommenced, if slowly. Will be posting a first draft here once I've got everything looking good enough text-wise.

[Jordan]

Okay weighing in on the Q6+ issue. It isn't so much that having a Quantum score of 6 or higher breaks the game, it's all the goodies they tacked on to go with it. Mastery should be radically altered if not removed from the game and the ability to start tacking on silly numbers of extras should be as dumped as well. All of the level 4+ powers likewise should be removed. THose three things right there are what breaks the game. the fact that you can only access them after you hit Q6 just gives Q6 and higher a bad rep.

Personally, I think those levels of power are more detrimental to the overall concept of the game. For example, just how exactly did humanity boot the Aberrants off earth when several of them are already over the dreaded "Q6 level" and able to rain such unholy fire down on cities and continents (Mastery allows this) in 2008? "Threaten to destroy earth with your nukes eh? No worries, once you've bombed your pitiful race back to the stone age we'll just mop up, have radiation-eater lad suck up all the bad mojo you bombs created and then put Bounty to earth fixing the terrible mess you made So go ahead. Do us the favor." That is pretty much how I see the Chinese Ultimatum panning out.

In all seriousness, another of Aberrant's flaws was that they couldn't get their rule set to match the fluff on a number of levels. From the supposed Chinese ultimatum and how non practical that actually was to the simple disconnect of the rules for powers not living up to the idea that nova powers could do "anything." The disconnect between the mechanics and the fluff is terrible! By the rules characters were actually quite limited to powers-wise. Yes there was a sidebar that talked about making your own powers or re-purposing other powers to do what you wanted but the game was the furthest thing you could get from a "toolbox" concept.

In my honest opinion the best thing you could do for Aberrant is take the concept of the game, a few choice creations from the books, and basically start from scratch. Sadly I doubt that will happen. While I look forward to the reboot, I am expecting the absolute worst...

I so with this was being done for M&M...

[SalmonMax]

Yeah, the power levels skewed so wildly at the high end that it makes the Aberrant War a silly notion.

Extend that to Trinity, and it becomes even sillier. The addition of psionics makes no difference. The true Aberrants in Trinity would be Lovecraftian nightmares, as far beyond the powers of any mortal psion as the psion is beyond the powers of a mortal amoeba.

The Aberrant War only makes sense in the context of the initial book. The stuff introduced in later books pretty much renders the projected course of history as detailed in Trinity ludicrous.

[Charlotte]

I find the best way to make the Aberrant War "work" is to a) have the Official Version of History not be the Real Version of History, and to not make Taint or dehumanization an inevitability.

If a good chunk of novas do manage to retain their empathy for the human race, then the Aberrant War can be also described as the Aberrant Civil War. It's questionable whether a psion can stop a nova, but it's less questionable whether a nova can stop a nova. The Ultimatum would still need some way to keep the novas off of Earth, but the sympathetic novas can help there, erecting an anti-quantum shield around the solar system so that the threat can never return to Earth... and neither can they.

This is a far more interesting story to me than "you're doomed to go insane and kill scores of people." It instead becomes "your actions might lead you down either path, and you don't know which one, but it's bound to end tragically with friend pitted against friend either way." Uncertainty about a player character's future actions is fundamental to a role-playing game since to have it be otherwise is to remove the necessary element of player control. By having it be up in the air which way you're destined to go, people who embrace their character's inhumanity can still do that, and people who don't want to do that can choose a different path. It costs one kind of player nothing and gives another kind of player everything.

Plus, mandatory Taint turns everyone's story into Doctor Manhattan's story. I realize it's pretty obvious that the makers of Aberrant like Watchmen...

... and I do too. Have the seventy-five dollar absolute edition on my shelf. But it's not the only superhero story I like and it's not even really my favorite. This notion that everyone must eventually develop Taint and become inhuman (or 'channel' it and... still become inhuman) limits us to an endless regurgitation of Doctor Manhattan's story, where we grow detached from humanity and eventually leave the planet Earth.

There's other stories. We shouldn't have to break canon to tell them.

[SalmonMax]

It's also worth saying that Manhattan's story isn't even the only story IN Watchmen...and in someways, not even the most important story.

In the end, Dr Manhattan really has almost no influence over the course of humankind. For all his power, and for all the things he does, his story is a very introspective one. Only connected to larger events by his connections to other characters.

[Dave ST]

But it's not the only superhero story I like and it's not even really my favorite. This notion that everyone must eventually develop Taint and become inhuman (or 'channel' it and... still become inhuman) limits us to an endless regurgitation of Doctor Manhattan's story, where we grow detached from humanity and eventually leave the planet Earth.

There's other stories. We shouldn't have to break canon to tell them.

Normally I'd like to say something like 'quoted for truth', but seriously Mike I could quote this as gospel. Very well put. You've pretty said everything I've been trying to say about the game for years, I just couldn't find the right words.

Okay weighing in on the Q6+ issue. It isn't so much that having a Quantum score of 6 or higher breaks the game, it's all the goodies they tacked on to go with it. Mastery should be radically altered if not removed from the game and the ability to start tacking on silly numbers of extras should be as dumped as well. All of the level 4+ powers likewise should be removed. THose three things right there are what breaks the game. the fact that you can only access them after you hit Q6 just gives Q6 and higher a bad rep.

Q6 isn't the breaker, but you are right, all the Level 4+ powers are what break the game. Yes, even Mastery on any level seriously can damage your game's level of balance. However as an ST who has played a game that allowed players to rise to any level of Quantum and tack on as many extras to a power as they liked (within their permitted allowance due to quantum) I can tell you in all honesty that it's not the Quantum score or the extras, it's Level 4+ and Mastery that are the shit kickers.

When I locked all Level 4+ power sand Mastery I ended up with a Marvel-esque game where people make Captain America's with 7's in attributes and focused more mundane powers in the Level 1-3 range and invented so many ways to customize the game to fit their theme that it created what felt like a whole new genre of Aberrant for us.

I get that Aberrant is supposed to be about God-like power and what we'd do with it, but the fact remains, and we all know it's true, if you put the statistics for Thor's Hammer in the game... someone is going to want to use it! It's one of the reasons I like Scion, the mention Mjolnir but never stat it, why? Because they tell you in no uncertain terms that it's basically a "Fuck You" button and if you have it, you win. That's what Mastery and Level 4+ powers were, IMO.

[Jordan]

I get that Aberrant is supposed to be about God-like power and what we'd do with it, but the fact remains, and we all know it's true, if you put the statistics for Thor's Hammer in the game... someone is going to want to use it! It's one of the reasons I like Scion, the mention Mjolnir but never stat it, why? Because they tell you in no uncertain terms that it's basically a "Fuck You" button and if you have it, you win. That's what Mastery and Level 4+ powers were, IMO.

And lets face it. since when are the level 1 to 3 powers not "godlike?" Especially when you think of the average human even a dot of luck (one of the lamest powers at 1 dot) is pretty fantastical when you think of how that would translate into a story. Quite frankly if I ran in to someone who could fly, shoot laser beams, or turn invisible I would be scared and a little bit jealous. No they may not make them Superman but are you really going to argue that point when they are vaporizing your face?

[Dave ST]

No they may not make them Superman but are you really going to argue that point when they are vaporizing your face?

Well, yeah. I mean hell, if the guy's already vaporizing my face I might as well go out telling him he can kiss my ass when he's done. Last great act of defiance n' all that.

[Jordan]

lol

[Sprocket]

Well, it seems a veritable match has been lit in this munitions dump of a comatose thread...

AFA the complaints about the higher-powered aspects of "Old Aberrant" (as opposed to "New Aberrant", hopefully to be released by Onyx Path in 2014-ish), I'm not going to alter anything about them in AB:Nexus. That's more than a bit beyond the book's scope (crossover game mechanics, time travel, crosstime travel, rules for using aliens in Aberrant & rules for Inspired "Background Weirdness/Fortean Events"). I'm hoping (99% sure, but fingers crossed for luck) that Ian & the Onyx Path crew will be addressing your concerns when thay get around to writing up "New Aberrant".

[Sprocket]

Re: One other thing-

Your insights on the Q6+ "Level 4+ quantum powers situation would have greater effect if you joined Ian Watson's Facebook group for the "Trinity Continuum" here: http://theonyxpath.com/trinity-continuum-whats-in-a-name/

I won't be joining them, (I've been too paranoid to want anything to do with Facebook from its beginnings) but you folks might, if you haven't already.

[SkyLion]

*snip*Made of Win*snip*

Oh man...could NOT have been said better. So stoked to hear about a reboot!

If I'm reading you correctly, it sounds like there was insufficient guidance material on playing 2ndGen novas and similarly high-powered nova characters in both the canon books (Aberrant Players Guide) and the fanworks (A Breed Apart). For my part, belated apologies for that oversight. The problem of world-breaking shouldn't detract from enjoyment of a high-powered chronicle.

Problem is, without going the oWod Mage route (Archmages in a covert cold war enforced by king-hell levels of Paradox and Mutually Assured Destruction), I'm at something of a loss to figure out what would work to fix that problem and be thematically appropriate. I suppose it's one reason that the cosmic-level Marvel characters only rarely have exploits on Marvel Earth-616. They're just too big story-wise to work well in anything Earthside except on rare occasion - Annihilators: Earthfall comes to mind.

AFA scrapping the Q6+ rules, that sounds more crippling the game than correcting it AFAICT. I'd hope that the new version of Aberrant could be used for chronicles at all power levels with equal ease.

An idea that came to mind is to make the setting *bigger.* Widen the scope...fold Trinity into Aberrant. I mean if you have Novas who can jaunt into outer space they are going to find stuff. That is what the Marvel movies have been kicking ass at. I known the original game was about Earth and focused on one little planet but your analogy to Marvel is a good one.

On that note I love how the Marvel RPG is able to accommodate all levels of play. My table top group used the system to convert Rifts, ditching all of Palladium's dead weight and keeping all of the flavor...if Marvel can balance characters between Daredevil and the Beyonder, then Aberrant should too.

example: Cross-time travel - I can cause a global economic collapse. Simply step into a world that has been wiped out by plague and empty out fort knox and then drop all that gold onto the open market back on your main world. Sure it will take some trips to carry all that gold, but it's doable and it wouldn't take as much as people might think, and that's only an L4 power.

*cough* Why Fox whatever do you mean???

Personally, I think those levels of power are more detrimental to the overall concept of the game. For example, just how exactly did humanity boot the Aberrants off earth when several of them are already over the dreaded "Q6 level" and able to rain such unholy fire down on cities and continents (Mastery allows this) in 2008? "Threaten to destroy earth with your nukes eh? No worries, once you've bombed your pitiful race back to the stone age we'll just mop up, have radiation-eater lad suck up all the bad mojo you bombs created and then put Bounty to earth fixing the terrible mess you made So go ahead. Do us the favor." That is pretty much how I see the Chinese Ultimatum panning out.

You know...I would LOVE to play in that setting...the Chinese followed through in their Ultimatum...a lot of novas died...ALL of the humans died. The novas remake the Earth into an exotic alien planet covered in exotic jungles and terrains but also laced with super high nova tech and such. Naturally all would not be well in paradise, as different factions form and end up at odds. Drama and excitement follow...

Plus, mandatory Taint turns everyone's story into Doctor Manhattan's story. I realize it's pretty obvious that the makers of Aberrant like Watchmen...

I think this in large part stems from the cynical World of Darkness mentality that White Wolf carried through into the Trinity-verse. It had to be dark to be cool. Just as with Kindred and Garou, and Mages and Changelings, they had to include the theme and mechanic of "the downward spiral." Really Aberrant is such a product of the 90's...

I can appreciate what Watchman's deconstruction did for comics, but Alan Moore is kind of an angry old bastard too and it shows in his work.

[Marco Moreno]

Honestly Skylion.Novas destroying the earth and rebuilding it terrible idea. one of the main stories of Aberrant (in my view) is the juxtaposition of the mundane vs. the super powered and how they affect each other. Remove that dynamic and you are no longer playing Aberrant but (again IMHO) a power gamer wank fest that doesn't really require other people to participate...

Perhaps they could do that type of setting as an alternate universe splatbook but really, it doesn't fit in with the progression of the three titles.

[SkyLion]

Marco, you missed the meaning behind that comment entirely.

I didn't mean as a canon setting, I meant as an "other worlds" type of alternate setting. Post apocalyptic nova-world (and with the high powered cross time games on this site it is more than possible).

Remove that dynamic and you are no longer playing Aberrant but (again IMHO) a power gamer wank fest that doesn't really require other people to participate...

You are correct that it would no longer be Aberrant as we all know it. It would be more like a science-fantasy world. That said I don't really appreciate the tone and implication of your comment there. It seems close minded and judgmental. Such a world-setting-story concept is perfectly plausible to play in a group and no wanting is required.

Then again I've always wanted to play a post-Apocalyptic World of Darkness game too. Yeah it is a complete break from the mood and theme and general idea of the actual game, but it's still a cool setting idea....like a supernatural gamma world, where Ragnarok Happened, the Antidiluvians rose up and destroyed each other, Paradox went mad, and the Wyrm broke loose before triadic balance was restored. Playing survivors or descendants in such a setting would be cool.

Same with a post-apocalyptic aberrant game. Not necessarily playing as god novas, but the beings that inherit said world from them.

Let's just leave it that we have different tastes without being derogatory.

[Sprocket]

An idea that came to mind is to make the setting *bigger.* Widen the scope...fold Trinity into Aberrant. I mean if you have Novas who can jaunt into outer space they are going to find stuff. That is what the Marvel movies have been kicking ass at. I known the original game was about Earth and focused on one little planet but your analogy to Marvel is a good one.

On that note I love how the Marvel RPG is able to accommodate all levels of play. My table top group used the system to convert Rifts, ditching all of Palladium's dead weight and keeping all of the flavor...if Marvel can balance characters between Daredevil and the Beyonder, then Aberrant should too.

Can't believe that I overlooked that option, esp. considering how well it fits in with the AB:Nexus concept. Thanks for pointing that out, SkyLion! Pointing out the possible future consequences of the PCs' actions as graphically as possible would make for a good deterrent against casual world-breaking. The trick would be getting said PCs' to actually care about those future consequences to a point beyond "That's SO KEWL, we need to do that ASAP!" AFAICT, that disregard of consequences/inability to realize the consequences is/was a big deal of how the insane Taintmonkeys screwed up Earth circa 2040-2060s.

So, we just have to instill a healthy caution in high-powered novas against using their powers unwisely - which is what Traveler attempted many times in the CoQF game IIRC.

Also, I will definitely be looking over the Marvel RPG for "how to's" for gaming with cosmic-level supers.

[SkyLion]

Thanks Sprocket! Glad to hear I could contribute something useful! :^^:

Glad as well to see you are still kicking around here...EON old school homies unite!

[Sprocket]

Thanks Sprocket! Glad to hear I could contribute something useful! :^^:

Glad as well to see you are still kicking around here...EON old school homies unite!

The feeling is mutual, I assure you! Yah, I'm still hammering away at the Nexus project.

[Dawn OOC]

I'm going to step in here briefly to offer my opinion. First, it is good to see you Sprocket. I know we didn't hang on EON but you are fairly famous and it's good to see old hats around here.

Second, I don't hold out much hope for any of the "new but not really new" products being out out by Onyx Path. Considering that this is the same writing team that consistently gave us stuff we complained about in WOD and Abby, I'm not expecting anything new or exciting. I'm expecting them to be a retread of all the same tired, meta-plot heavy crap they gave us before.

Now, I am hoping for something more than that and if they deliver, I will be t h r i l l e d. But until then, I'm not holding my breath.

[Dave ST]

I don't hold out much hope for any of the "new but not really new" products being out out by Onyx Path. Considering that this is the same writing team that consistently gave us stuff we complained about in WOD and Abby, I'm not expecting anything new or exciting. I'm expecting them to be a retread of all the same tired, meta-plot heavy crap they gave us before.

Now, I am hoping for something more than that and if they deliver, I will be t h r i l l e d. But until then, I'm not holding my breath.

This.

[Sprocket]

I'm going to step in here briefly to offer my opinion. First, it is good to see you Sprocket. I know we didn't hang on EON but you are fairly famous and it's good to see old hats around here.

Second, I don't hold out much hope for any of the "new but not really new" products being put out by Onyx Path. Considering that this is the same writing team that consistently gave us stuff we complained about in WOD and Abby, I'm not expecting anything new or exciting. I'm expecting them to be a retread of all the same tired, meta-plot heavy crap they gave us before.

Now, I am hoping for something more than that and if they deliver, I will be t h r i l l e d. But until then, I'm not holding my breath.

This.

Re: Fame?!? - Color me gobsmacked then, DawnOOC. This is the first I've heard about it, beyond the book reviews/feedback I've seen & archived whilst lurking at the RPGNet Forums and points similar. I've always thought of such as a mirage at best - If I fail to deliver product of a reasonable quality, it'll vanish as if it never was to begin with.

Re: Onyx Path's upcoming Trinity Universe releases-

Have to agree with your trepidation, DawnOOC & Dave ST. It could easily turn into a Charlie Fox right quick if they don't divorce themselves from White Wolf's bad habits. That said, the developers currently seem to be much more open to player/ST feedback and aware of the old Aeon Continuum's defects (and strengths) than they were the first time around, plus they have the fanbooks to learn from. So we'll just have to wait & see, which is why I'm still attempting to hammer out AB:Nexus instead of abandoning it as unnecessary.

[SkyLion]

Your fame is legendary in these parts BECAUSE of your commitment to putting out the highest quality product Sprocket.

As for the Onyx team, people can grow and change. I'm proof of that. Maybe this time they will do better, as Sprocket says.

[Sakurako Hino]

I just want one thing, placed at the front of the book and made bold for everyone to see, even those wearing coke-bottle glasses.

"One thing should be made clear, this is YOUR universe when you run this. You don't even have to run our plot. Just remember that by doing so you won't be hamstrung by things we made in here as in how our plot meshes with the rules. Overall, as long as you are telling wonderful stories and having amazing adventures, we have done our job brilliantly."

People honestly feel they need permission fo go off the reservation with these Storyteller games. Maybe that should be put in there as a "You have our permission to diverge" thing.

[SkyLion]

I think its more than there shouldn't be any plot. Someone earlier mentioned Eberron asa great example beccause it dangles a bunch of threads but doesn't explain any of them or advance any metaplot whatsoever. It gives you a canvas a brush and a huge toolkit of paint and says "have fun with your creations in this world."

[Sakurako Hino]

Agreed. Let us play with things. Don't railroad us into a metaplot if we don't want to use it.