Ouroboros

DnD Fifth Edition

51 posts in this topic

Yeah, it's coming, discuss ...

Thoughts?

WotC sees 4e sales not being where they want them to be, and Pathfinder doing extremely well. 5e is a desperate attempt to reclaim the "throne" of fantasy gaming.

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Pathfinder is nice ... not a fan of 4th myself. Would love to play 2nd ed again ... just for the nostalgia.

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Yeah, they really dropped the ball with 4th ed. And that is beyond the fact that I don't personally like they way they set it up. WotC just didn't support it very well. They changed things, even simple things like book format, added 4.5 (the Essential rules) way too early, brought out books for only two specific races, etc.

I think to make D&D relevant again, they would have to go to a more free-range/classless system, otherwise they're just making an inferior Pathfinder or not changing enough fro =m their current model.

But they want OUR input. ;)

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The only input they want from us is Cash. They've been a money focused company for too long and I mean that in the negative sense. If your focus is the Dollar Sign you aren't making a good product, you need to aim to make a game that people want and need. Make the absolute best game you possibly can, and make it fun. Focus on giving the people that will keep them going "ooh... ahh..." and you will have their money as a result. Unfortunately, they start with the goal of 'what can we make to get more of their money'.

Horse+cart = backwards

Even so, I wish them luck for nostalgia's sake and because a strong gaming industry means more games for us to play.

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Even so, I wish them luck for nostalgia's sake and because a strong gaming industry means more games for us to play.

The industry is changing, whether WotC wants to acknowledge it or not their product has to be top notch all the way around to get the kinds of $ they charge for their stuff. The small press, online, PDF publishing environment is flourishing, for all things d20, and for a lot of other game systems and generic supplements. It's also easier for somebody with drive and a clear idea to put out a labour of love new game with new rules because they don't need the capital to go to print just to sell it. PDF sales and Print on Demand services let the little guy jump in with two feet.

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In fairness to the developers of 4e, they weren't money-grubbing execs. 4e's development was powered by several factors...one of which was declining 3e sales,yes.

The goal with 4e was always to try to make an RPG that could compete with the growing dominance of computer gaming, and bring new hobbyists into the fold. The critical error they made was that, in doing those things, they neglected to really look at what the -existing- hobbyists wanted.

4e was a triumph of RPG mechanics in a lot of ways. The play is clean and (more or less) balanced, and gives players lots of options that are clearly defined and easy for the GM to catagorize and anticipate. Like it or hate it, it's a well-designed system. Where it falls down is story; and this is where the developers didn't just DROP the ball...they fumbled it and let Paizo get possession. Old-school RPG'ers like me tend to look at the system second, the story first. Why else would we still play White Wolf's old edition stuff sometimes? The dice throwing, for us, is all in service to the narrative. And 4e gave us a very pretty dice thrower...but hardly any narrative.

FAIL

To their credit, the things I've seen from Mearls and Cook make me believe they understand why 4e was embraced by some (easy to learn, intuitive to use), but rejected by others (little non-combat context, emphasis on mechanics over story). I wish them well in trying to use these lessons to make something that is truly superior. Because something truly superior can only benefit everyone.

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Because something truly superior can only benefit everyone.

Except people selling competing product!! ;)

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Oh bah. Who plays just one game? The RPG industry may be more like the fiction industry. The release of a blockbuster, like Harry Potter perhaps, is a boon to everyone. Sure, people read Potter...but they don't stop there. They then take a look at the other books in that section too, which many of them may never have looked at before. Rowling becomes richer than the Queen, but authors who unjustly escaped notice get some sales...

If D&D can fulfill its goal of bringing more people to the hobby, then even competitors will benefit from it.

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Well, I knew it was coming, I guess. I fear becoming a D&D grognard with naught but a sneer towards newer editions, and hopefully 5E will win me over.

One thing Wizards is doing right is open playtest. It doesn't necessarily result in a better system, but what it does result in is a far more fanatical community and player base. Pathfinder fans sometimes come off as believing that Paizo walks on water, a trick Wizards have never mastered, even in the eyes of fans of 4E like myself (to me, 3E is the Somewhat Tolerable Edition, but 4E is the first time I have actually wanted to run D&D in ANY capacity.)

I like the notion of a modular, GURPS-like rules system that starts from basic presumptions and has as much optional complexity as you like. This should hopefully quell disputes between people who like to keep things simple and people who want a more complex game.

So since they want everyone's opinions, here are mine.

Stuff to Keep From 4E:

1) High hit points at 1st level: Absolutely no one I know likes starting at 1st level, but 4th Edition makes it far less of a pain in the ass by keeping starting hit points high. If you're of a roleplaying bent, you probably put some effort into that character, and maybe don't want to see them done in by getting a bird egg birthed on them from 10 feet up.

2) Caster supremacy/dependency can stay in its crypt: I don't think anyone's seriously disputing this, are they? Older editions said "well, your caster may suck at level 1 but the fighter will suck at level 15 so it evens out" - which is grognardese for "in exchange for you not having fun now, your friends will not have fun later." To hell with that.

And don't get me started about people who seriously try to argue that caster supremacy is a 'feature,' because that's just how things would be in the world. Magic isn't real. More people have died throughout history to barbarian sword cleavings than to mystic fireballs or death curses. Whether magic is a superior means of kicking ass in or out of a fight is an entirely invented detail, and such details must always serve the game and the player's roles in it. Half the levels of a game should not be borderline unplayable due to casters prepping fifty spells (fun fact: in the story that D&D magic is based on, the most spells a wizard could ever prepare was four.)

3) Death to randomly rolled attributes and hit points: Because 1979 ended in Nineteen Seventy-Nine.

4) Inherent bonuses: Because inherent bonuses make it - finally - not only possible, but easy, to run a game with little to no magic items.

Those are the biggies. Now, Stuff To Use From Prior Editions:

1) Basic races: tieflings, dragonborn, and eladrin are awesome, but they don't have the "oh, I know what that is" archtypical power that elves, dwarves, and halflings have. Everyone (except me) has seen or read Lord of the Rings. Keep the weirdo races in expansionary books. Core should stick to stuff with a low barrier of understanding.

2) Different systems for different PCs: 4E was going in this direction, but it came up with the essentials take on martial classes too late to affect how people saw the game. Everyone getting AWED abilities kept things level, but perhaps TOO level; the Essentials martial classes, switching between stances as needed and with little bursts and tricks that could be played off as a lucky strike, kept martial play interesting without having to figure out how a fighter daily power works.

Psychics had power points, casters had spell slots, incarnum users had... however that worked, I don't recall. This is the lesson they should have taken from WoW - each class in WoW has a different schtick or resource that affects play, such as rage, combo points, totems, pets, runes or stances.

3) Wayne Reynolds: I am firmly convinced that a BIG part of Pathfinder's success is that its books are just dang pretty to look at, and Wayne Reynolds' artwork is a big part of that. Whatever Paizo's paying him, Wizards: offer him double.

And finally, Stuff That Is New:

1) A skill system as fun as combat. People laugh off 4E's skill system, but with skill challenges it's the first concrete step in making noncombat more than just tacked on, and even it's only a faltering first step. D&D's never been good for this. There's a reason skills were originally termed non-weapon proficiencies - that told you everything about where the priority was.

In the game I play in on Fridays, the GM's modified a system I came up with where our combat powers can be spent to affect the course of a skill challenge by granting bonuses, rerolls or extra successes. It's a crude first effort and I can tell you that it has still managed to make skill challenges a lot more fun. There are tons of games out there with resolution mechanics for noncombat challenges that are more robust than "roll dice, check number."

2) Magic items that feel magical. No version of D&D's done this for me, due to the notion of you getting better than your own equipment. 4E's magic item system is messy, solving some of 3E's problems (such as eeeeeeverybody getting a cloak of resistance) while creating new ones such as properties that kick in post-milestone, which is a hard mechanic to justify in-game. 3E is the edition that codified the phrase "Christmas tree effect" for how many of the things you needed to boost saves, your stats, and protect you. 2E and prior editions gave us the "your sword must be THIS magical to get on this ride" notion, and that never sat well with me.

Monte Cook's columns usually make me go "ah, no, sir, I don't want that" but the one time he's hit the nail on the head was with regards to magic items and how, paradoxically, the way to make them more important was to make them less important. Ideally you should be able to play the game without magic items at all, and when a magic item DOES show up it is a big deal. In the aforementioned Fridays game, our GM has taken it upon himself to make special artifacts that have several unique properties and have us discover them. I can tell you that this is a much better way to run things. I don't wield a +4 fullblade with a few interesting properties - my sword is Moonclaw, a shimmering sword made of moonsilver from a time when the moon and the shifter race had a much different relationship. SalmonMax's character doesn't just have a rapier with shadow properties, she is the bearer of Oblivion's Edge, the fabled sword of the rare noble assassins. I'd never trade this way of doing things in for another +whatever sword of whocares.

If 5E turns out to be not my thing, it's not like there aren't other games out there - but the entire industry rises and falls on the waves generated by D&D. More people play D&D and its offshoots like Pathfinder than all other games combined, and there comes a point where a feedback loop kicks in. People play D&D because they can get players more easily, and they can get more players easily because more people play D&D. For better or worse, D&D defines the hobby. Hopefully the latest definition will get the game's various factions to point their spears at more deserving targets than each other.

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We all new it was going to happen someday, but maybe not this soon.

To be honest, if I didn't have a bunch of old-school gaming buddies who can't agree on any system other than D&D or Pathfinder, I possibly would never play it again, or maybe just to dig out AD&D 1st edition for a beer and pretzels night. For my fantasy kicks, Ars Magica (now in its fifth edition) more than scratches that itch, it actually blows d20 fantasy out of the water, but it is certainly NOT for everybody.

I've never been able to bring myself to play 4E, mostly because I'm still mad about buying all my books twice thanks to 3E and 3.5; I can say picking up and flipping thru 4E books left me cold on a purely superficial level, but I'm fairly old-school myself when it comes to D&D, and I accept the fact that 4E appeals to younger people and others who found 3E impenetrable (which let's be honest, it is). I like Pathfinder a lot, though I haven't played it as much as I'd like; it still feels like D&D to me, but with enough twists and minor tweaks to make it fresh.

So sure, if they can make 5E a sort of 'best of both worlds' product, I'll be happy, though I wonder if the 4E players will know the same pain I felt when 3.5 hit the shelves; I doubt I'll buy the books, though.

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And one more thing: there is a device that has proven immensely popular in the world that can read, get this, "electronic books." It has proven to be a boon for small authors who can self-publish, and large publishers who've seen it outstrip hardcover sales. It is well-suited for this hobby due to being able to search for any keyword or skip to any highlight, and it can carry thousands of D&D books at reduced cost with a weight increase that rounds down to zero.

WOTC needs an e-book strategy. Yes, people will pirate - but people will also buy it fair and square, and while fixed costs stay fixed the variable costs of producing an ebook can be anywhere from a third as much, percentage-wise, as a physical book, to pennies for bandwidth only (if bought through a site WOTC sets up.) I realize that piracy is higher on nerd books, as it is with Nerd Anything, but I doubt it's so high that fixed plus variable costs outweigh the profits. The searchable compendium is possibly the best Internet thing Wizards has ever done, but it's still not the same as the ability to buy the ebook itself.

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I hear ya Mike, but I am shocked and amazed at how often I hear people over on the M&M boards say that they won't buy something that isn't in a dead tree version, or dead tree on demand. I've not tried a Kindle so I don't know if it gets that sweet spot between book-like and tablet-like or not, but I understand not wanting to read an LCD all day either.

That said my Samsung Galaxy Tab does a wonderful job with e-books for RPGs, and searching really is a great feature. So I agree entirely that the big dogs need to embrace the digital age.

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Can you not get the DnD books on DriveThruRPG? If not then they are idiots, because the ebooks are out there and pirated anyway, so WOTC should at least be profiting from them.

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Heritage - Ars Magica for the win!

You are right in saying its not for everyone though. Steep learning curve.

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Can you not get the DnD books on DriveThruRPG? If not then they are idiots, because the ebooks are out there and pirated anyway, so WOTC should at least be profiting from them.

A quick search turns up nothing official from WotC on DriveThru, just some 3rd party products.

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WotC doesn't release in electronic formats. They used to do some pdfs, but stopped.

Hasbro doesn't really TRUST the online medium as a source for distribution of product, except for subscription services like DDI (including the aforementioned Compendium). Companies tend to look at terms like 'potential' profits, which theft/piracy detracts from, rather than 'actual' profits, which is how much money they're making from NON-pirated sales.

I suspect (but admittedly don't know) that e-books create profits just fine. But if you obsess over piracy reports and how much money you COULD have made if it hadn't happened, I suspect e-publishing LOOKS like it sucks. It might go something like this:

Aide: We just made a million dollars from the e-PHB sales!

CEO: But we could have made TEN million if people didn't pirate it, according to this report!

Aide: But...it's still twice what we'd make on a print run...

CEO: We lost nine million dollars! Axe the e-publishing! We can't afford losses like that!

And so on.

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Idiots. The ebooks are out there, (everything they've ever produced has been scanned)... and they are being pirated. To choose not to tap into the ebook market to avoid being pirated is just stupid.

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The problem is that Habro is a toy company. Toys are an inherently physical product and not a product prone to epidemic levels of piracy. Even WotC was started with that same mindset. CCGs are a thing that people want to own physically. Heck they even managed to create a rarity and collectability factor that led to people buying extra of stuff on the off chance that they would get a harder to find card. Its genius on one hand and evil in the other.

RPGs are not collectible (not in the way a CCG is), nor are they something like a Nerf gun, or GI JOE figures that are kinda a one-person per toy use. RPGs are books of ideas, and once one person shares that idea with a group of friends a single physical product can be used by multiple people for play as intended. Hasbro and WotC aren't used to that, they didn't start as those kinds of businesses.

As for PDFs vs books ....

Green Ronin does rather well with PDF sales, and they are teeny tiny compared to WotC/Hasbro. Their weekly PDF villains from 2011 did well enough that they are going to be putting out a weekly "Power Profile" which will be kind of like 2's Ultimate Power, but specific to a concept and applicable to 3rd ed. GR also has a nice pre-order programme where you get the digital for a book for $5 when you pre-order the hardcopy. It's a way to get product to fans sooner (since PDFs are released when the book is done and don't have to wait for printing and shipping), while also giving people incentive to double dip without feeling ripped off.

I don't know if White Wolf has done anything to compare, though I do recall that the Scion Companion book was incrementally released via PDF as it was created. They offered a subscription for all 6 parts on PDF, all 6 parts plus a hardcopy, or you could just buy as you liked when they came out. Not sure how much success they had with it though.

Small press and independent authors are proving the model works though. Look at the stuff available for just about any game line and you can see mods, settings, adventures, and other stuff that people are producing are selling. Wizard's may love their hardcover rule books, and their Volumes 1 thru 100 for whatever it is, and the old guard certainly still like that and buy that way, but if they want to be able to stay relevant they need to embrace digital books. If Max is right that may require a different way of thinking for the men in charge, or it may require that the IP goes to a company that does get it. I doubt though that a CEO Toymaker will understand that in order to make a million dollars, he needs to not make 10 million dollars. These people aren't wired that way.

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Yeah, well, an interesting thing came up on Enworld wherein it was revealed that Hasbro considers a product line bringing in less than a certain threshold (I -think- it was 100 mil a year or so) is considered 'marginal' and subject to cuts, layoffs, etc...

The RPG industry doesn't fit that kind of thinking very well. It's a small, loyal fanbase. Most RPG publishers would KILL to get numbers remotely close to that. Even Wizards, the God-Emperor of RPG, can't always make it. This is why, however, we see WotC obsessing over any and every way to reduce losses and increase sales. They're mortally terrified of becoming 'marginal' in the eyes of their corporate masters.

Small, indie upstarts like Green Ronin and even Paizo have a big advantage in that...while their budgets are far, far smaller...they don't have unreasonable demands for profits coming in from bullish execs who have no concept of the china store they're blithely wandering around in.

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When I recently went through and cleaned out my gaming shelves getting rid of stuff I knew I'd never play again. I kept copies of D&D 2nd ed. for the nostalgia, because it was what got me into gaming and I spent so many hours playing it that I used to have page numbers memorized.

All of the 3.0 and 3.5 went to the half-priced book store, or are waiting for a garage sale this spring. I have no 4th ed because I didn't care for it. I do appreciate what they tried to do, but I just didn't like the implementation. It felt to me like they were trying to take the 'magic' out of magic.

What I have left now are the campaign specific setting books and modules that I might still use someday like Eberron which could be used for setting material in any game system.

As far as actual game systems, my shelves hold Aberrant Universe books, Pathfinder (which I still haven't had a chance to play yet), Star Wars d6, and OWoD. Pathfinder I really would like to play. Everyone I know who has used it speaks highly of it, I just lack a group to game with here.

As for 5th Ed. I'll be waiting to see what they do and hoping that they succeed. They have the size and power (should they choose to use it responsibly) to put out a crap ton of material in support of the game which would be great. Nothing sucks more than a great game coming out and then withering for lack of content. (Wheel of Time rpg)...

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If you start an online Pathfinder game, I'd totally join. I really really like it. It's like 3.5, with a sweet, delicious candy shell...and yet it doesn't rot your teeth.

METAPHOR.

...okay, simile.

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If you start an online Pathfinder game, I'd totally join. I really really like it. It's like 3.5, with a sweet, delicious candy shell...and yet it doesn't rot your teeth.

I was actually talking about a table top game because my wife and I don't have a group to game with locally. But an online game would be tempting... I'll think it over and see if I have enough ideas to put something together or not. Thanks to SWTOR my time has been pretty limited lately, so I don't want to commit to something I can't follow through on. ;)

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I started out gaming with pathfinder actually to be honest. It was an fun and interesting game. I also was playing fourth around the same time due to having players who like pathfinder can do a several hour game that had something along a storyline or could lead onto something more serious. To me it was always the fun meeting other people and having fun and trying to create memorable characters. Sadily for me I am not the best at that. If anyone starting path that would be okay for me. It will be interesting seeing how 5th goes if they do it.

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Okay so I am just curious; is anyone actually getting the play test material for D&D Next (What they are calling 5th edition)?

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I'm a fuddy-duddy and a hardcase to crack when it comes to changing editions. I have resisted nWoD because I've barely scratched the surfaced of the oWoD (though Changeling has been calling to me). 3.x/Pathfinder suits me just fine. I don't need more books and games to tell the stories I want to tell.

Kind of the problem with RPG game publishing...eventually you have a complete line, and you have scoured every nook and cranny. I'm all for innivation and fixing bugs, but I hate it when a new edition comes out that makes my old stuff unusable or obsolete...would rather they came out with new awesome settings than forcing me to start from scratch all over again.

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Okay so that is a no from Skylion. And Dude? your books aren't obsolete, especially if the game system is "complete." I'm more curious about what people actually think about the rules under the new play test.

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Not obsolete in the sense that they can't be used, but new editions can fracture the community. We all have only so many hours to game. One of the most frustrating thing for me with RL TT groups is that so many are so fickle and so many games start and sputter out.

Case in point, the decline of ST driven Aberrant games on this site.

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I've signed up for the playtest, but have to admit, only looked at some of the first material, and haven't been keeping up with it. I didn't particularly care for 4e - don't want to go into the issues here, others liked it just fine, but it isn't for me, though I can understand the appeal in some cases.

From what I gather - looks like there are going back to a hodge-podge of 2nd and 3rd editions. Trying to make the game system more modular, from what I understand. So people can add on rules and complexities up to their preferences, like using a gridmap, critical hit tables, etc.

Remember seeing something like having combat advantage or a situational bonus, instead of giving a flat bonus, you roll 2d20, and take the better result. Likewise, having a situational penalty, you roll 2d20 and take the lower result. Not sure what that will to the probabilities - not sure I like it either - but I guess it's simpler than calculating your total bonus on the roll over and over again.

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So we are getting really, really close to the release of D&D 5th Ed./Next. So far I am enjoying what I've read. I managed to get my hands on a copy of the Alpha playtest and finally (Finally!) have gotten a look at the full roster of classes.

Naturally there are things I like about the new rules set and things i don't, there are also things I am on the fence about. For example Feats. Feats are now an optional system in the game. When using Feats characters don't get access to them until 4th level and they replace the Attribute bumps characters would normally get at that level. However, Feat are for more versatile and powerful then before, and some of them include attribute bonuses to specif attributes anyways. For example, Lightly Armored gives you proficiency with Light Armor and a +1 to Strength or Dextery (which cannot take the attribute higher than 20. Seems pretty Meh until you realize that there is no penalty for casting spells in armor you are proficient in. Wizards just found a highly useful Feat.

Another example is Mage Killer. It doesn't offer any Attribute bonuses but gives the character 3 conditionally triggered abilities that really ruin an enemy spellcaster's day. You gain advantage on saving throws against spells cast on you if the caster is within 5' of you. if a caster casts a spell within 5' of you, you can use your reaction to attack them, and any time you do damage to a target that is concentrating on a spell, they have disadvantage on the concentration check to not loose the spell. Again pretty useful if you like killing caster.

The Proficiency Bonus and Proficiency System is a clever way of handling both the skill system and the BAB/Save Bonus system. All characters have a Proficiency Bonus (which is the same number for all classes of the same level. For example all characters have +2 at level 1) that is applied any rolls using things they are proficient in. These can include weapons, skills, armor, tools and saving throws. You Class and and your Background set what you ware proficient in. So, for example, a first level character that is proficient in Lockpick kits will get +2 to all rolls involving lockpick kits. Someone proficient in Charisma Saves will get +2 any time they need to make a Charisma Saving Throw. It's simple and I like it.

I could go on but I've already rambled enough. Suffice to say, there is enough for me to seriously consider picking it up when it's released this year.

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Yes they are and they are great for learning the basics, but there are a lot of things missing for it. the majority of the classes, for example.

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Yar, if you don't have the playtest rules, you have to wait for the Handbooks to come out.

 

Not much longer though.

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Nope! Comes out for GenCon I believe. Sooooo Mid-August?

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I think that was the starter set. According to what I can find online the release date is the 19th of august for the Players Handbook, Mid September for the Monster Manual, and Mid November for the DMG.

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One of the things I am liking are the "variable options" they have put into each class to further let the players distinguish their character. For example the Fighter gets to pick a Martial Tradition at 3rd level which shapes the character.

The Champion is a guy who focuses on raw power to take out his foes. This sort of feels like the "generic" fighter but it's abilities are still really good.

The Battle Master is a more "academic' or "refined" fighter and could easily be used to build knightly traditions or Samurai.

The Elderitch Knight is a gish. Magic and combat in one class in the core. True you have to wait to level 3 to get there but it's still a vast improvement to either making a specialty class just for gishing, or having to multiclass or work out obnoxious Paragon Path tom-foolery.

The fact that every class has at least 2 options for taking the class down different paths is a great idea. I will bet within a month of the PHB release we will see a lot of homebrew "variable options" for the various classes.

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Whelp, I now have the the 5th edition D&D PHB in my grubby little hands. :)

I have to say from a visual standpoint I am really impressed with the book. Truthfully, there is almost no difference between the alpha playtest and the finished product that I can detect (there are minor changes to the Background I've noticed but background weren't part of the Alpha playtest)

Anyhoo. I like the feel of this iteration of the game and will probably at least buy the DMG and Monster Manual when they come out.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask and I will answer as I can.

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