opnet [OpNet] Is the Teragen inherently selfish?

[Wakinyan]

Far be it for me to demonize the Teragen any further than others have already done but I have been thinking. Is the whole concept of the Teragen selfish?

Be it on the racial level. Terats usually love to help another Nova out. (I will say that is just being altruistic rather than it just being a cunning recruitment ploy.) But what of other species?

The concept of personal evolution and growth seems to be vastly appealing to many among not only Terat ranks but all Novas. At what cost though? Where does personal evolution stop and personal responsibility begin? While I do not condone someone like Cull I have to admit he really isn't thinking of himself when he does what he does. He has a priority outside of himself. Often you do not see that among the Teragen unless of course it is for martyrdom for the One Race. If you know your next step is likely to crush millions of creatures be they human or not do you do it? Do we have to do it? Are we compelled to do so?

Before I am ready to take my next step I have to know if the cost is worth it. Is it for any of us?

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

posted this elsewhere, but it applies here too.

Will someone please answer me this: why is it that we're judging everyone on how altruistic they are? Oh, the Teragen are fucktards, what have they done to help out the world? Oh, Elites are fucktards, what have they done to help out the world? Oh, you're not helping out the world, then you're a fucktard.

This seems to be Utopia's answer to anyone criticizing them. "Lookie at what we've done. Have YOU done this? WHY not? Until you DO, you can't speak against us."

I smell a guilt trip. And I reserve to the right to say that those guilty of giving guilt trips to those who don't feel compelled to be a shining light of good and proper Utopian behavior probably have a severe case of fucktardation.

Look, I'm happy the world is a better place because of what the good novas at PU have done. Yay, clean air, yay clean water, yay cures for diseases that I can't get anyway, yay for taking crime and war down a notch or two.

But stop throwing it my face if I decide that's not the path my life should take. It is MY life after all, not yours, I shouldn't be made to feel like worm dirt if I'm not as altruistic as you.

[Wakinyan]

God knows I am not one to be going out of my way to help out the world Juri. I am not even saying step out of your way to do the world some good. What I am asking is this.

You burn. You want to burn more. Would you burn the world? If you could? What stops you from doing so? Doesn't the thought of making a fire so big that it consumes the world appeal to you? If not why not? Where does growth and power end and self restraint begin?

[Timeslip]

The Teragen is selfish in the sense that it involves self-interest...but when you boil it down, self-interest -- enlightened or not -- is the driving force behind just about anybody's actions.

This does not mean that the Teragen wants harm to come to baseline humanity, but merely that the wants and needs of baseline humanity do not supercede the wants and needs of Novakind. Nor does it mean that the Teragen wants to rape the planet; overall, a healthy and bountiful biosphere is in the best interest of all, Nova and baseline alike.

That said, I cannot tell you if it is "worth the cost." Only you can make that determination. There are advantages, both personal and philosophical, to the way of Teras. There are also disadvantages (largely due to how the Teragen is viewed).

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

I can't say that I want to burn more, or burn the world, Schnookems. I've never thought about making a fire so big it would consume everything. Now that I think about it, no, it doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not fire, you know. I'm a reasonably intelligent girl for my age, and despite my obvious desire to stir the pot on occasion, I do believe in balance.

Pyromaniacs might want to burn down the world, but a fire spirit recognizes that fire serves a noble purpose in the world and that too much fire upsets the balance.

[Wakinyan]

So despite the fact that you could try to do so and doing so would obviously mean a leap in your power and knowledge you do not wish to do so. That is a commendable restraint. But then again are you Terat?

I believe Teragen philosophy is a little different on this. To push forward despite risks and costs. I know I am no Terat and I don't think I really understand it all that well but it seems to me that it could be downright reckless to walk that path.

[kestrel404]

Totem: Teras is selfishness. Or at least that is the best I've been able to decipher from the Terat poster's answers to various questions.

As far as I can tell, Teras requires you to let go of all anchors, cut all fetters, and focus your attention and energy inwards. The focus of the entire philosophy is on self-advancement and distancing oneself from 'baselines'.

All they hold in common is Teras, a philosophy built on difference and individuality.

Non-terats hold their humanity, duty, and society in common. It is a much more stable basis on which to build culture.

[Magus]

And stability equals... ?

[Wakinyan]

It seems to me if you are completely inward focused you couldn't have a culture period.

[Sarah 'Pulse' McIntyre]

Tell that to the Buddhists and any other number of philosphies that espouse personal enlightment. I think a lot of you are over-thinking this.

[Slattern]

Oh my goodness, yes of course we are selfish.

As are atheletes. Goodness gracious what a selfish bunch. Expending all that energy and time when they could be teaching the illiterate or feeding the hungry. And those Buddhist monks that Pulse chimed in about? Self-centered little cocksuckers aren't they? Me me me me me me me.

People who work at getting good with a pool cue, or mountain climbing, or surfing, or any other activity that doesn't involve knitting bodysuits for mange ridden cats, I guess they are all selfish, me first little pricks now aren't they?

[Timeslip]

Quote:

To push forward despite risks and costs.

That hasn't been my impression of it. Accepting more risks and costs than, say, Utopia (and then, only because there are ways of mitigating said risks and costs); but not just a headlong plunge with abandon.

Let's face it: a devil-may-care race to power is not in the best interest either of the individual or the society; the repercussions of advancing faster than one can reasonably expect to channel Taint are steep, and examples of such can be seen throughout Novakind, regardless of what (if any) group affiliations they may have. Frankly, I'm glad that someone was able to slow me down long enough to take a good, long look at myself and how to proceed from here without loosing my mind to mishandled Taint.

[Vox Via]

Totem, you are right we should play Gods. We should play Heroes,and solve the world problems. We should give the world everything it needs,and wants. We should put a compleat end to work and toil for the masses...

But really I have to ask you this, if we do everything that we can do,and so far out shine those around us, would they still strive toward their own greatness? If we make all the hard chooses for them, would they still be free?

We as novas would have to walk a fine line to live with humans,and I do not think we as a race could walk that line. I do not think we could peacefully live with humans,and I do not wish to make either humans are novas slaves. Besides, humans have been living on this rock for thousands of years before novas came. Do you really think they would die off without us?

TimeSlip, if you truly believe wha tyou have said here you still have much to learn. Even if you have learned a lot, already.

[Wakinyan]

Did I say act like gods or heroes? NO!

I am saying thinking outside of oneself. That doesn't mean saving cats from trees. That could be as simple as not allowing your natural gamma emissions to incinerate everyone around you that cannot handle it.

I am not looking for the Justice League here people. I am just seeing if anyone thinks personal responsibility is important in spite of what your true nature demands.

[Vox Via]

Well, tell you what. you Ask Preston what is like to talk to me face to face, and then ask yourself what would happen if I went into public in my full forum?

[Preston]

Is the philosophy of Teras inherently selfish?

No.

The Teragen are not inherently evil, either.

The gulf exists in the perception held that any of us are independent of reality, this world, or the society that presently exists.

Teras is open to interpretations of extreme selfishness and giving into one's personal desires without concern for the cost to others.

Teras is not a philosophy that establishes a universal moral compass.

Killing, stealing, lying, and betrayal are all allowed under Teras without personal moral consequence. In the same breath, neither are love, companionship, and alturism. All penalties and rewards in a moral context are within oneself.

You have both the ability to accept any actions and no actions as being correct and right.

Thus, if you do not believe in the concepts of good and evil, you are truly unfettered. By not recognizing evil, you are also vulnerable to evil deeds (in my opinion).

Compare Geryon's actions to those of Epoch. One seeks to avenge and defend novas from baseline aggression while the other hunts down and kills novas, for his own reasons, but at baseline's behest.

Yet, they are both members of the same organization and share the same philosophy of Teras.

Compare Count Orzaiz and Charr.

Compare Ashnod and Narcosis.

On a personal note, I believe this lack of a moral compass will come back to haunt them. There is nothing in Teras that supports or condemns selfish actions. There is nothing wrong with betraying a fellow terat, so there is no place beyond your own self-oriented desires to oppose said actions.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Juri 'Salamander' McClendon:...I shouldn't be made to feel like worm dirt if I'm not as altruistic as you.

If it makes you feel any better; The various members of T2M are paid extremely well. I’m paid very well. Aside from that, we have exiting, challenging work. And yeah, it’s GOOD work as well as just being good work. I’m not paid better but the risk is much lower.

It’s a good life. I’ll never make it onto T2M, but I sleep better than I did when I was an elite.

Timeslip: The Teragen is selfish in the sense that it involves self-interest...but when you boil it down, self-interest -- enlightened or not -- is the driving force behind just about anybody's actions.

It goes a lot further than self interest. As I understand it, the Teragen’s world view does not allow for a pluralistic society.

In their view, law can’t be applied to novas so any attempt to do so is viewed as an attack on them. Because I take orders from baselines, in their view I’m a slave and I should be freed. If that requires the murder of my employers, or the destruction of what I/we are trying to build, then so be it. My being in this situation willingly just means I’m wrong.

Alchemist : Teras requires you to let go of all anchors, cut all fetters, and focus your attention and energy inwards. The focus of the entire philosophy is on self-advancement and distancing oneself from 'baselines'.

Exactly. Your choice comes down to “in what manner would you like to abandon humanity”.

Preston: Teras is not a philosophy that establishes a universal moral compass.

“Not ...establishes“ doesn’t go far enough. How about “Actively ... prevents”.

Preston: Compare Ashnod and Narcosis.

Sure, I prefer Ashnod. I don’t think we agree on anything, but she’s intelligent and open to discussion.

Preston: On a personal note, I believe this lack of a moral compass will come back to haunt them. There is nothing in Teras that supports or condemns selfish actions. There is nothing wrong with betraying a fellow terat, so there is no place beyond your own self-oriented desires to oppose said actions.

Meaning the various clicks will start killing each other. I agree. Murder is already accepted as a method of settling disputes and it’s just a matter of time before egos clash, or someone fights over scarce resources.

[Ashnod]

*decides not to even bother commenting on this*

Except, Timeslip, thank you for saying what you did.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

ATTENTION DR. TROLL!!!!

You are by far the stupidest motherfucker on the face of the planet and it would be in the best interest of Utopia to have your balls cut off and use the scrotum to patch over your flapping fucking gums.

Time and fucking time again people have tried to fucking explain Teras to you but you insist time and fucking time again to prove that you have a steaming lump of shit and not a brain. You keep twisting people's words around like you think if you keep chanting "Terats are evil. Clowns with eat me." over and over again it will be true. How the living fuck have you not choked to death drinking out of the toilet?

Has ANY FUCKING TERAT HERE said that they wanted to kill all Utopians so that you can be free? ANYONE?!?! Cuz forgive me if I missed it.

Okay, do you understand this? I am one of the spastic dipshits of Teras when it comes to Philosophy and even I know that morality is relative!!!! For fucks sake you drooling jizz-encrusted rent boy!! Yes, some concepts are near-universal but only a few. JESUS WEPT!!! Just stop! Stop trying to talk to us!! You keep to your Chick-tract believing ways and stop trying to engage in a battle of wits here. It's like watching...like watching...fuck!! I can't come up with an analogy that gets across how abso-fucking-lutely sad you come across.

[Magus]

I will not be taking part in this "discussion".

[Wakinyan]

Welp this went well!

Should have expected as much.

Thanks!

[Ashnod]

Sorry Totem. Most of us no longer see the point of responding honestly when honest replies are twisted into mispresentations.

Should you not be addressing your concerns with Apep directly? Or perhaps the opinions of the Teragen held by Preston, Dr. Smith, and Alchemist hold more weight in your views.

You know how strongly opinions are expressed here, yet you asked and got the response that should have been expected.

[Preston]

Totem asked a question, Ashnod.

A response solely from terats would have had no more validity than one solely by those opposed to them.

I believe I seperated what I have learned from what my personal opinions are. If I have drawn some incorrect conclusions from the numerous terats I have been able to talk to, please let me know either through a PM, or here on the forum.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Lemmy Chillmeister: ATTENTION DR. TROLL!!!!.... <snip>

Chillmeister, as long as I'm hitting buttons, consider this one. Your girlfriend would qualify as one of those “scarce resources” I was talking about.

Who do you think she would be with if you were dead? Does that person/persons know this? Do you think they’d kill over that fact?

Murder is a baseline concept and ethics are relative after all, so have fun but watch your back.

[kestrel404]

Ashnod: If I am wrong, tell me. I am not a follower of Teras. I couched my views as just that 'my views'. You are a follower of Teras, and thus have a better understanding of the philosophy and reasoning. What Preston said was enlightening, but in no way changed what I said.

If Teras is not inherently selfish, please explain. Hell, Lemmy, give us the low down. Timeslip, even Vanguard, tell us how Teras is selfless.

You should know by now that I am not unreasonable and I do not jump to conclusions. Debate me if you think I'm wrong.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:


Who do you think she would be with if you were dead? Does that person/persons know this? Do you think they’d kill over that fact?

Murder is a baseline concept and ethics are relative after all, so have fun but watch your back.

Jeezus pleezus. You're going to hurt yourself. Really you are.

Dude, she would be with the exact same folks she's with now when she wants to be. Culturally imposed monogamy based on masculine insecurity and ownership issues are relative concepts too...you dipshit.

MAN! I'm going to live, easily, a few hundred years, same with her. You think we would "cleave" only unto each other, forsaking all others? Boooooooooooooring.


Seriously man, catch, buy, fuck, go out and steal a clue.

[Slattern]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:


If Teras is not inherently selfish, please explain. Hell, Lemmy, give us the low down. Timeslip, even Vanguard, tell us how Teras is selfless.

You should know by now that I am not unreasonable and I do not jump to conclusions. Debate me if you think I'm wrong.

I might be willing to, if you do some things first. Initially, I want to know your definition of "selfish". I want to know where that definition is on your moral landscape. I also want to know how you define selfless and again, what moral weight that holds with you. Please be specific.

[kestrel404]

Selfish: Concerned with oneself to the exclusion of others. Unconcerned with the welfare of others.

Selfless: Concerned more with the welbeing of others over the welfare of yourself.

Selflessness is a virtue, in my eyes. Selfishness is not wrong of itself, but it generally leads to immoral, or at least amoral actions.

Is that sufficient?

[Timeslip]

Alchemist,

Perhaps I was unclear in my first post. What I was trying (and apparently failing) to say is that just about anything can be defined as selfish. "Selfless acts" are done in enlightened self-interest. They are matters of self-interest because it may earn you respect/support/assistance, because it is construed in most religions as to lead to a better afterlife (or next life, or karmic state, etc.), or simply because it fires off neurons in the pleasure center of the brain.

No matter how altruistic we may wax, people -- baseline and Nova -- all exist in their own little self-centered universes, and interact with others primarily based on what is best for them...even when taking what they may think of as selfless acts. Some are more sophisticated in their self-interested acts than others, but it still boils down to self-interest.

[kestrel404]

Timeslip: How very solipsist of you. You are saying that everyone acts purely in their own interest, because even altruistic acts are done for future gains or to make the person acting feel better about themselves.

Notice my definitions. They are relative to the motivations of the people acting. If you are supporting an orphanage because it makes you feel god, or gives you a tax shelter, or to bolster your reputation, then that is STILL a selfish act. If you do it because you feel the need to act for the good of others before yourself, then it is a selfless act. The act is the same, but the motivation and therefore the morality of the act changes.

If you truly believe that one person cannot help another without the expectation of some benefit, then you are deluding yourself. If that were the case, then why would anyone ever die for a cause?

[Timeslip]

Quote:

If you do it because you feel the need to act for the good of others before yourself, then it is a selfless act.

Only in the sense that "selfless acts" are still generated by self-interest; you do it because it trips those pleasure-center synapses with the "I did a good thing" endorphins. It makes you feel good.

Quote:

If that were the case, then why would anyone ever die for a cause?

Good question...but in many (if not most) cases, it still comes down to a perception of reward (afterlife, et al) or avoiding pain (ranging from "I can't live without him/her" to "I would live in shame for the rest of my life" to "if I don't do this, X (where X can equal cancer, vindictive associates, etc) will make me die much slower" to whathaveyou).

Look, I'm not saying that doing "good acts" is lying to yourself, or a waste of time, or anything else along those lines. I'm just saying that rejecting something because -- and only because -- it is "selfish" is like rejecting an activity because it includes entropy. Now, if instead you want to reject something because it is short-sighted, or because it is directly harmful to someone not deserving of harm, or because it is simply idiotic, or some-such, I have no problem whatsoever with your rejection...just don't peg your decision on a mythical lack of self-interest.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Lemmy Chillmeister: You think we would "cleave" only unto each other, forsaking all others? Boooooooooooooring.

I’ll let you know.

[kestrel404]

Quote:

Originally posted by Timeslip:
Only in the sense that "selfless acts" are still generated by self-interest; you do it because it trips those pleasure-center synapses with the "I did a good thing" endorphins. It makes you feel good.

I already answered this. If you choose to ignore my answer, fine.

Quote:

Good question...but in many (if not most) cases, ...

Do we need to continue this line to its logical end?

Quote:

rejecting something because -- and only because -- it is "selfish"

Please show me where I did this. If you mean the Teras philosophy, I have not rejected it, out of hand or otherwise. I don't know what it IS, so I can neither accept it nor reject it. I base my words and opinions on the words and actions of those who claim to follow Teras.

[Timeslip]

My apologies, Alchemist, I have apparently misunderstood your post. You seemed to be placing considerable weight on the issues of selfishness and selflessness in relation to Teras, and I seem to have misread your intent.

[kestrel404]

That is because the original question of this thread is "Is the Teragen inherently selfish?".

My opinion is yes, and I perceive that as a weakness, but not a fatal flaw.

[Ashnod]

Totem and Alchemist,

I have responded to you privately.

[Slattern]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:
Selfish: Concerned with oneself to the exclusion of others. Unconcerned with the welfare of others.

Then no, the Teragen, at least those members with whom I have become acquainted with, are not selfish.

I myself have devoted a great deal of time and effort to Lemmy in order to teach him how to reach his potential. Geryon has risked a state of world-wide infamy to stand against tyranny against his people. The nova who assisted me in my evolution did so without once asking for anything in return. I have helped a number of other novas, also without expectation of repayment, simply because I thought that I should.

And yes, I help novas, not baselines. Because I feel that baselines are not deserving of love, sympathy and/or encouragement? No. But they have eight billion brothers and sisters to fall back on. They have governments, religions and charities concerned with their well being. We on the other hand, have only a few thousand. And far less than that if you do not espouse baseline-centric beliefs.

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:

Selfless: Concerned more with the welbeing of others over the welfare of yourself.

Selflessness is a virtue, in my eyes.

And here I would disagree. What you are describing is self-nullification.

[Preston]

TimeSlip and/or Slattern, since Ashnod has chosen to ignore me, perhaps you would care to talk to me about teras, the Teragen, and our perceptions of them. We can do it here, or in private.

[kestrel404]

Quote:

And yes, I help novas, not baselines. Because I feel that baselines are not deserving of love, sympathy and/or encouragement? No. But they have eight billion brothers and sisters to fall back on. They have governments, religions and charities concerned with their well being. We on the other hand, have only a few thousand. And far less than that if you do not espouse baseline-centric beliefs.

Well, here is the heart of the matter, in my eyes.

However, since I am awaiting Ashnod's reply regarding this, I will leave the matter for now.

Quote:

And here I would disagree. What you are describing is self-nullification.

Only in the extreme case. I was thinking more of the selfless act, rather than the selfless existance. All virtues can be carried too far.

[Slattern]

Oh my. I'm only worthy of Ashnod's sloppy seconds? Oh well, it's not the first time.

Fine, you bypass my explanation Alchemist. So Preston, how about we start this off with some ground rules? I'm not interested in defending Teras or the Teragen. Your opinion of myself or my friends is really not of world shuddering import to me so you can believe whatever it is you need to. I am also, like Ashnod, not interested in someone twisting my words and/or meaning about, it's infantile. So please don't do that (though I suspect that is not your style in the first place.)

So to begin: Please explain to me in as much detail as you are want to exactly what you feel Teras and the Teragen represent.

I say up front though that this is likely a waste of time. You have dedicated beliefs and I have dedicated beliefs. We are no more likely to come to an agreement through discussion than a devout Muslim and a devout Christian are likely to come to an agreement on the nature of God.