13 replies to this topic

[Mr Fox]

What would happen to a clone if the Original died?  Would they continue to exist until the power's duration ran out?  (I would tend to think they would.)

If you were to put mastery on Clone what effect would it have besides increasing the duration from scenes to days?  In other words how would it effect the -1 per clone penalty?

[RushingMountain]

I couldn't find anything that specifically talks about what happens to effects when a character dies, but my gut feeling is that the clones should continue until they expire in some normal way (until time runs out, they get pasted by a bus, etc.).

As for your second point, if you're talking about mastery, you've got the APG.  If you look at page 63 of the APG, it mentions an errata for Clone, in which clones are exactly the same as the character in question, except for having Clone.  They even have copies of the same clothes and equipment.  The lot of them share the creator's quantum pool and Node rating.

Reading mastery seems to cause missing time incidents for me, so I stopped looking at those paragraphs.  

[Mr Fox]

Ah Ha!  I completely forgot about the errata!!!  Thanks.

That would mean the only thing mastery would get you would be more clones who lasted longer, but they would be limited to sharing the same quantum pool.

[Courier]

My read is that Clones disappear if their creator dies.  They don't have a node or Quantum themselves.  Presumably they could dorm down and still exist, but if their creator dorms (or if his Clone power is disrupted) they go.

[Mr Fox]

That makes sense on the errata version.  I might actually like the original version better.  I've been playing this whole time using the old rules with Elspeth because I forgot all about the errata.

I also think I might let players in my games choose which they want to go with (with the caveat that they can't switch between them, it would be either/or).

[Dave ST]

Why ask if you were just going to use the version you liked best anyway?

[Titan]

Ah, but can you imagine the poignancy and immediacy of a story with a clone protagonist, whose original has died, who knows that he has a limited time to discover the murderer, or exact revenge, or complete the mission (or all three)?  What a story that could be.

[Edit] And now that I think on it, that is basically the plot of the wonderful book   Kiln People by David Brin

[RushingMountain]

Originally Posted By: Courier

My read is that Clones disappear if their creator dies.  They don't have a node or Quantum themselves.  Presumably they could dorm down and still exist, but if their creator dorms (or if his Clone power is disrupted) they go.

That's fair.  I guess it all depends on whether or not you decide a quantum effect is tied to the initiating node.  Does that mean you'd interpret hypnosis as losing it's effect if the character who initiated it dormed down?  Empathic manipulation?  What about other maintenance effects?

I just internalized some of those powers as quantum waveforms that are generated and continue on their own, just like light from a flashlight travels on through the universe even after the light itself turned off.  /shrug   I guess I hadn't really thought about alternatives.

I'm not sure what I would do with powers like Invulnerability and Luck, which both have duration of permanent.  Maybe that invulnerable guy's corpse makes a good body shield?  Maybe the finger of that lucky guy can get cast in gold, worn as a pendent, and give a little luck to the wearer?  Maybe those are too wacky.

[Mr Fox]

Dave, I didn't even remember there was an errata on clone till RM reminded me.


Titan, that was actually an idea I had considered, but isn't much likely to happen since that would pretty much end any stories I want to tell with El.  But if I ever do get bored with writing stories for her someday I just might do that.  She already has increased duration on her Clone, so if they didn't just dissipate instantly, then they would have days to either get revenge or set her affairs in order

RM, I agree. Logically, once a power's cost has been paid then it would last the duration unless otherwise stated.  Or so it seems to me.  It's one of those area's however, that I would not argue with an ST if they ruled the other way.  Just because I can see the logic doesn't mean that everyone can, and the ST is the final arbiter.

[RushingMountain]

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

RM, I agree. Logically, once a power's cost has been paid then it would last the duration unless otherwise stated.  Or so it seems to me.  It's one of those area's however, that I would not argue with an ST if they ruled the other way.  Just because I can see the logic doesn't mean that everyone can, and the ST is the final arbiter.

Sorry, I'm not trying to poo poo Courier's idea, I'm just trying to understand where he's coming from.  I'm a sucker for conversations about alternative view points, because they keep me on my toes.  Sometimes they inspire a good story that wouldn't have worked with the way I had been thinking about things before, too.  :-)

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

Logically, once a power's cost has been paid then it would last the duration unless otherwise stated.

Intuitively this makes sense... but the more I think about this the more I disagree.

Disrupt works by removing dots of the power.  Presumably if someone disrupts "Clone" then the clones vanish.  

Similarly it seems wrong to let someone use Shapeshift, Growth, or Forcefield, then Dorm down and claim they still have those powers active for the scene.

Clearly Quantum can be used to create permanent effects, damage from a quantum bolt or even matter itself... but if you need to pay juice to keep it going then when your node turns off so should the effect.  IMHO anyway.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: RushingMountain

Does that mean you'd interpret hypnosis as losing it's effect if the character who initiated it dormed down?  Empathic manipulation?  What about other maintenance effects?

Hypnosis seems to be a "push and forget" effect, i.e. it's not like domination where you need to keep putting juice into it, it's more like quantum bolt where the effect takes a while to heal.  Empathic Manip is an odd duck because it's a bit of both, i.e. you can keep paying juice but when you stop it still takes a bit to heal (I think, book not here).

Originally Posted By: RushingMountain

I'm not sure what I would do with powers like Invulnerability and Luck, which both have duration of permanent.  Maybe that invulnerable guy's corpse makes a good body shield?  Maybe the finger of that lucky guy can get cast in gold, worn as a pendent, and give a little luck to the wearer?

Now these I like and are internally consistent with the other way of handling it.  Perm = Perm.  I still think the default setting disagrees with it because you'd need to put house rules in to deal with dorm and disrupt, but I'm all for novas being powerful enough to do this and I also like the concept of people trying to "harvest" lucky novas for their body parts (etc).

[Mr Fox]

Quote:

Clearly Quantum can be used to create permanent effects, damage from a quantum bolt or even matter itself... but if you need to pay juice to keep it going then when your node turns off so should the effect. IMHO anyway.

I completely agree, but Clone doesn't have a continuing cost.  The cost is paid upfront and the effect continues for the scene, or longer with increased duration.  So what would be getting disrupted?  There is no flow of power, it's just like q-bolt in that it's paid and then it's done.  

At least the core book version is, there could be some argument that the errata version would end since they share quantum pools, but even then it's still a pay it and forget it power, so I'd be more likely to rule that the clone continues, but can't spend Quantum until the original undorms.  After all if the original runs out of juice, or one of the clones spend it all, they don't suddenly disappear (or I don't see any reason they would anyway).

[Courier]

Mr Fox, on 02 December 2010 - 03:24 PM, said:

I completely agree, but Clone doesn't have a continuing cost.  The cost is paid upfront and the effect continues for the scene, or longer with increased duration.  So what would be getting disrupted?  There is no flow of power, it's just like q-bolt in that it's paid and then it's done.

After thinking about this for a while....

Q-bolt's duration is "instant".  Clone's duration is one scene.  I've seen STs allow Clones to be maintained past one scene, i.e. the creator keeps the effect going by continuing to pay for it.  Further all "maintenance" powers have Clone's duration (i.e. pay once per scene) out of combat.  Clone is exceptional in that it doesn't change in combat... although arguably it'd be a better power if it did.

The implication is that (most) powers with a non-instant, non-perm duration do have a "flow of power".  

Obviously this is ST-territory.  If you disrupt someone with Empathic Manipulation, does that bring her victims back to sanity or does it just mean you're starting the "time back to normal" clock?