Delightful Eeeeevilness!

[Dawn OOC]

For a while, I have considered running an evil game. The problem with doing an evil game, for me, is that I’m not an intrinsically evil person (waits for the laughter to stop). I may seem like it to my PCs, but I’m setting up motivations for them to be heroes. In fact, most of my ST style is “stop the baddies”. This isn’t a bad style, but it doesn’t allow much room for “being the baddies”. This style tends to rely on the PCs being willing to stick their necks out to help someone else. I tend to flounder when a player says, “My PC is utterly selfish and evil; now, motivate them anyway.” I can do the occasional self-serving story arc but more than that is pushing things.

I’d like to run an evil game because there’s a lot of call for it and I think it’d be fun. I know it’d spread my boundaries as an ST. So as preparation, I’d like some of the players here to give me some feedback. If you are interested in playing in an evil campaign of any setting, please reply below. Even if my final setting doesn’t appeal, you’ve helped the board overall.

What is the Nature of Evil? What do you see as someone who is evil? Is it someone for whom winning at any cost is valid? Do the ends ends justify the means? Do evil PCs need to see themselves as evil?

What are your boundaries? What are you not willing to explore in a game, even off-camera?

What motivates evil characters? What pushes an evil PC to want to be involved in a plot in a game?

What is a strong story arc for evil PCs? What really gets a player excited to write about evil people? What draws them in and makes it a must-post-to story?

EDIT: If you have something to say about evil campaigns that isn't "don't do them", feel free to reply. A reply is not a committment to play in this particular game.

[Mel Grimson]

Mel from Argonauts isn't exactly evil, but if you look at it from the perspective of his past and his personality, he's pretty damn close. Hence I will start the answering of these questions by looking at his nature that I have created.

"What is the Nature of Evil?": In a sense, you can blame Mel's primary faults upon his father, a mob enforcer who brought him up to survive and win life at all costs. Pretty much anything goes if it's necessary. Hence, Mel has been more than willing to kill, kidnap, rob, target women and children, etc. The only exception, again instilled by his father, is a distaste for rape. Even torture is acceptable, though that's pragmatically a last resort due to the way it turns off weaker associates. Ends do justify means.

On the other hand, Mel simply justifies this as necessary to win and survive. His one redeeming time was his love for his gf, Cecilia, but she got killed, which makes his callous mask even stronger.

"What motivates evil characters?": Mel is a firm believer in dealing with your foes, preferably one that doesn't leave them around to chance more trouble. Certainly if someone tried to rope him into a scheme or target him for trouble, he'd want to find out who's up to something and fry them. Though he could be voluntary if it benefited him enough.

Now for more me-focused answering...

"What is a strong story arc for evil PCs?": I think the key, as far as I can currently say is good characterization. The villains have always been popular most often for their portrayals, and if people have good Evil resonating PCs, I will be willing to engage with them.

"What are your boundaries? ": I'm not too sqeaumish, but I think extremely graphic torture is my no-point.

Edit: And in case you haven't guessed, if this game gets going, Mel will be my guy.

[Einherjar]

What is the Nature of Evil? There's a huge amount that could be said about the nature of Evil. There's petty, selfish, crabbed evil that happens on a daily basis. There's the evil that happens because good people stand by and do nothing, thus becoming evil themselves. Then there's the grand, sweeping evil thats the staple of fantasy and super-hero fictions. The supervillains! Not all of them see themselves as evil. Magneto sees himself as fighting for his race. Lex Luthor sees himself as a pragmatist to whom everything, even other people, is an obstacle or an opportunity. And at the far end of the spectrum is the Joker, who wants to watch the world burn, or terrible alien evils like Annihilus, who wants to eliminate all life because it's an insult to him.

There's one common thread to all evil though, which Terry Pratchett hit upon in Carpe Jugulum. Granny Weatherwax said it best when she said "All evil is, is treating people as things. Yourself or others." The person she was talking to argued that it might be a little more complicated than that, to which Granny with customary bluntness sniffed "No it ain't. It all starts with treating people as things."

A villain sees people as things. Things for their amusement, or use, or as objects for their contempt or hatred or revenge, or as obstacles. But never do they see people as people, except with a few rare exceptions. Magneto at his worst, for example, treasured mutant life, but would snuff out humanity in a second and would even eliminate mutants who were too short-sighted to share his vision.

What are your boundaries? None, really. Child abuse and similar I prefer to be implied rather than described. Same with rape for the most part. If done to add weight and spin to a story, then fine. If done simply for the sake of saying "Look how evil we are" it tends to turn me off.

What is a strong story arc for evil PCs? I would say it depends on the number of characters. But a League of Evil or the founding of a Fraternity of Crime would be a lot of fun, particularly if set in a world with other villain groups and plenty of heroes to battle and plot against.

Oh, and if this kicks off, Darkling will be my Evil dude of choice.

[z017]

What is the Nature of Evil? What do you see as someone who is evil? Is it someone for whom winning at any cost is valid? Do the ends ends justify the means? Do evil PCs need to see themselves as evil?

In a setting with an absolute moral system (say, Forgotten Realms) 'evil' is pretty easily defined. In more morally grey settings, evil is to me someone willing to act on selfish impulses with no regard or care for the damage done to others. This does not mean that all their actions have negative consequences or that they actively pursue damaging courses of action; the character simply has no point at which they ask "should I be doing this?"

What are your boundaries? What are you not willing to explore in a game, even off-camera?

Hmn. I'm game for just about anything. I draw my own personal line at having my characters involved in storylines that involve harming children other than to devise many painful and protracted ways of utterly destroying whomever was responsible.

What motivates evil characters? What pushes an evil PC to want to be involved in a plot in a game?

Personal ambition, some tie to the crux of the plot that touches on something the character has decided is important, their own safety.

What is a strong story arc for evil PCs? What really gets a player excited to write about evil people? What draws them in and makes it a must-post-to story?

I like morally ambiguous characters and the chance to let loose on the darker side of stories. Seeing what people as players and characters do when given the free reign to create and play characters with no morals but their own desires and no constraints of societal expectations is an interesting window into the dark halves of myself and others. It can be fun to see what most people would never dream or desire to actually act out, but is still a part of the human psyche.

And, like the others, if this kicks off I would like to have Shae as my character.

[jameson (ST)]

What is the Nature of Evil?

According to society it's anything that goes against the laws of the group. That may not be a great answer but it's the truth, we consider slavery wrong therefore its evil. In ancient times it was a fact of life, even 200 years ago it was common enough to be normal and normal enough to not even be distasteful to most.

What motivates evil people?

Depends. The motivations are as varied, if not more so, than those of a "hero". Could be a cry for help, attention, greed, boredom, or a personal agenda. One "evil person" sells drugs to kids because he needs or wants the profit. Another does the same thing out of a desire to corrupt the innocent, and another uses that to enslave those kids. A man steals something valuable out of boredom, out of a need to make money to keep his family, out of a need to prove himself the best.

What is a strong story arc for evil people?

What is a strong arc for a good person? The same applies. They have goals and there are obstacles to be overcome in the pursuit of those goals. Everything else is dependent on setting, the characters, and their motivations and goals.

The above is not meant to be snarky or evasive, its a simple matter of the case as I see it in an absolute sense. If its my personal tastes for a game that are at question then it depends on the nature of the game. The villains for a super powered game are categorically different to me than the villains of a modern era crime drama (try comparing the Green Goblin to the characters from The Departed or Gone Baby Gone). The nature of the game determines the nature of the evil IMO and that is what determines motivations and story arcs.

[Justin OOC]

What is Evil?

Evil is that total lack of regard for others, at best they are tools, at worst they are nothing at all. Evil is that moment of perfect clarity after someone breaks that they realize they can do the same to others, and decide to do so. Evil is the willingness to go far beyond what is called for, not for benefit. Evil is a cruelty without limit or scrupel.

What motivates evil?

Some are evil for personal gain. These are the least dangerous, they can be figured out and countered.

Some are evil because it is all they know. They grew up evil, and embraced it. These can be rehabilitated, though not easily.

Others are simply evil because they can be. They derive joy from the suffering of others, or simply destroying anyone or anything. Power holds no sway over them.

What's a good Evil Arc?

Well I like taking over the world as much as the next person, but it isn't always the best place to start. I'd rather something less. I tend to enjoy destructive stories more than most.

What are your boundaries?

In general I usually make extreme cruelty towards and torture of children as a hard limit for me. I may have a PC that wipes a city from the earth with everything in it without a second thought, but you'll almost never hear of a pc of mine intentionally and brutally harming a child.

[Tharra of the Katjaa]

What is the Nature of Evil?

Evil is... not liking BACON!

[Stargaizer]

What is the Nature of Evil? What do you see as someone who is evil? Is it someone for whom winning at any cost is valid? Do the ends ends justify the means? Do evil PCs need to see themselves as evil?

I'll agree with Darkling and Granny Weatherwax that Evil is treating people as things. I'll also add that it is thinking of yourself as the only or the most important thing (whether specifically or by implication, whether purposefully or not). Oh, and evil PC's don't need to see themselves as evil (in fact I would bet that most don't).

What are your boundaries? What are you not willing to explore in a game, even off-camera?

Same as any other game for me. No graphic, physical, interpersonal relations. I've never actually come up on the issue of children, and I don't have any myself, so I'm probably not as hard-line as some of the others in that area.

What motivates evil characters? What pushes an evil PC to want to be involved in a plot in a game?

In a word, themselves. As said in what is evil, the characters think of everybody else as a thing, and they are the most (or only) important person. Everything is done for their benefit in one way or another (gives them something to do, fulfills their vision, gives them an edge or the upper hand, etc.).

What is a strong story arc for evil PCs? What really gets a player excited to write about evil people? What draws them in and makes it a must-post-to story?

I'm afraid I can't be much help here as far as examples or ideas go. All I can offer is that if it is gripping and moving, just like a hero story arc, then it would at least keep me posting.

I actually have two ideas for a character... either a Draygo spin off or a completely new character idea ('Matter Man').

[Einherjar]

The key themes to a Villains campaign are Darwinian selection and being ultimately only able to rely on oneself.

Consider, a hero can rely on other heroes. The traditional mistaken-identity-leading-to-a-fight-which-in-turn-leads-to-teamup meme aside, heroes can all agree on a central position, which is that evil needs to be stopped and people need to be saved.

Villain groups, on the other hand, are famous for falling-out. They're in this for their own reasons, some of which have no common ground with other villains goals. Even when they do, the villain will only cooperate with others as long as it serves their purpose. If one villain proves to be a detriment or hindrance, they tend to have a lifespan measured in days. You might like that other villain, but you can't trust them to get your back when you're at your weakest, worst moment.

Now there's exceptions to every rule. A villain that takes the long view and likes to form strong ties with useful allies will support their weaker brethren, in the process forming a web of obligation and dominance. This Lawful Evil approach uses group dynamics to strengthen one's own position, finding a place for everyone in the pecking order... Especially if its below oneself.

Some villains will actually be friends or lovers. This isn't a failsafe: consider how quickly Magneto dumped Mystique in X-Men 3 when she became human. A villain will 99% of the time put their own goals/idealogy/needs first. That's why they're a villain.

The other side of the coin is the Darwinian process. The strong survive. Face it, to really get the flavor of a villainy game you have to OOC acknowledge that some do-gooder is going to turn up and foil you. You'll go to super-criminal jail with a power-inhibitor collar on and Big Bert as a cellmate. You'll be buried under thousands of tons of rock as your mountain lair collapses. Your planet-destroying superweapon will get destroyed, possibly with you in it. The Halcyon days of having it all your way before the forces of law and order catch on will come to an end...

So prepare. The best villains ALWAYS come back.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: Darkling

Villain groups, on the other hand, are famous for falling-out. They're in this for their own reasons, some of which have no common ground with other villains goals. Even when they do, the villain will only cooperate with others as long as it serves their purpose. If one villain proves to be a detriment or hindrance, they tend to have a lifespan measured in days. You might like that other villain, but you can't trust them to get your back when you're at your weakest, worst moment.

I think this example fits your point ...

[Einherjar]

Perfectly.

[jameson (ST)]

Potential Problems, Pitfalls, and Bumps Along the Way...

Are you really ready to be a villain? Are you motivated to do the heavy lifting when it comes to the IC threads?

As a villain you, the player, need to be the catalyst for the action. The GM is given a bit of a free ride on IC posts as the Heroes are 99% of the time working from a reactive posture. You need to decide that you need 10 kilos of Element X to power your doomsday machine and then plan and execute that caper. The GM just needs to provide the resistance based on how well your plan worked.

So you want to be the top of the heap? Are you willing to do what it takes? Are you willing to suffer at the hands of those who are?

As a villain its ALL about you. That goes for each player on an individual basis but rarely, if ever, on a group basis for longer than a single story or arc. Are you prepared as a player to accept from an OOC perspective that another player may ruin your plans to gain the upper hand for himself? Are you ready to risk getting stabbed, shot, or death rayed in the back? Can you be mature enough to deal with a setback that the other players deal you as much as those dealt out by the GM?

This is the Seventeenth incarnation of the Evil League of Evil ...

So Mr./Ms. GM are you really ready for this? The players are going to scheme, backstab, betray, and generally foil each other as often as they foil, kill, kidnap, or otherwise ruin the day for the heroes. Are you ready and willing to devote the time and energy needed to deal with the personal plotting of a group of evil villains? Are you ready to accept that they are likely to come together and break apart with the regularity of the tides? Edit: The same goes for the players; Are you ready to play a game where you are likely to spend a great deal of time one-on-one with the GM because you cannot trust your fellow villains?

[SalmonMax]

Forgoing the other question, because they've been answered by others to my satisfaction, I'd like to address the "What is a good Story Arc for evil characters?"

Villains have one trait that makes them tricky to GM. They are pro-active. They instigate. They begin their own actions, to achieve their ends. Superheroes react to that, attempting to stop them. You'll note that the heroes don't then try to track them to their lair, or otherwise be pro-active or preventative in nabbing them.

They know who butters their bread.

This means that a story arc for villains must be intimately tied to the villain's goal. You can't just toss a random bank robbery at them if the pace lags. That's not hard for a single villain. It gets a lot more complicated for a group. Villains normally cooperate out of necessity. After being foiled a given number of times their short-term goals change to "kill annoying superheroes," and align, so they unite. As their priorities change, the group becomes fractious and dissolves.

So for long-term cooperation, we need a group of people who share a long term goal...one that is equally available to all who achieve it (so there's no benefit to backstabbing), but that is very difficult to achieve (so there's incentive to seek help). Said goal should be one that compromises morality to achieve...thus defining our morality.

Immortality, for example, is popular. Godhood. Rule of the world (tricky, since there's always that nagging temptation to be the ONLY ruler of the world).

Villains may also have subgoals that are separate from the main goal. Creating a kingdom of sentient plants. Building monument (of himself) that can be seen from space. Achieving the ultimate ninja technique.

Et cetera.

Much more than a hero game, the goals of the group, and of the individuals are what will shape the stories, and what will provide the narrative impulse that powers us through.

[Mr Fox]

I once had the opportunity to sit in on a talk being given by Nigel Bennett who has been pretty much typecast his entire career as an actor as a bad guy. During his talk he said one thing that stuck with me, 'The bad guys don't see themselves as bad guys.' In their own mind they are justified in their actions. It is an extremely rare individual that views themselves as evil. Emperor Papatine just wanted to bring order and stability to the universe, of course he wanted it to be under his personal rulership, but in his mind he wasn't evil.

Whether it is your goal to rule the world or amass great wealth totally because you are selfish, it should be remembered that in their own minds they aren't bad guys. Sure they may know they cross the line sometime in purusit of their goals, but the ends justify the means right? I mean if it weren't me ruling the world it would be someone else anyway right? Might as well be me!

Story Arcs: Depends on the characters and their goals. Are they just selfish and trying to gain power and wealth the easy way, or are they intent on toppling the world governments in order to rule themselves. As others mentioned above, this really is the hard part for an ST. I think the key is that the characters have to drive themselves rather than sitting back and waiting for the ST to spoon feed them plot. In an evil story the ST will be the one reacting and the players the ones acting. If the characters are constantly 'reacting' then they are not very good villians.

Group cohesiveness: Enlightened Self-interest. The group has to feel that they are better off working together to reach their goals than working alone. That is what prevents them from killing each other before a story can even get started. There can be lots of background scheming and conniving but it should be kept to minor levels, or should be simple jockeying for position within the group, not offing the competition. This takes discipline on the part of the players to remember that while it might be perfectly in character to backstab the competition in a fatal way, that ends the story for the other player and diminishes the overall story.

As for playing in such a game. I've said before I'd love to play and that still holds true. The one exception is that I wouldn't be interested in a four color type evil group. No Joker and the Penguin getting together to get around Batman. The beauty of Aberrant is the real world feel to me and an interesting story about an evil group would be in the real world nature of it. I wouldn't have any problem with T2M showing up occasionally to foil our plans, but in the real world we could off the good guy rather than stand around monologueing while waiting for them to extricate themselves from our overly complicated deathbeam of horrible deathiness which is about to slice them in half while suspended over a pit of sharks with lasers on their heads.

Nope as a villian, I'd shank the bastard in a dark alley while he was trying to pick up a hooker, or failing that, I'd black-mail him with pics of him and said prostitute.

[Dawn OOC]

Good replies, guys. Here's another question - what kind of set up appeals to you most? Sword and Sorcery Evil, Modern, Sci-fi, "super-powered"? And what about your foes? Do you like the idea of a world where Good rules with an iron fist and you fight against them more than your fellow villians? A more serious version of the Guild of Calamitious Intent (from Ventrue Brothers) where the villians have a loose set of rules to follow (very loose and subject to a great deal of 'interpretation')? Or a world without that kind of set-up?

[Einherjar]

My first choice would be contemporary super-powered, with Sci-fi or Sword and Sorcery coming in second.

And for setup, I'd like a world where there are plenty of groups and individuals on both good and bad guy sides of the fence, of varying power levels. Kind of the standard Marvel/DC setup. The good guys, naturally, have the upper-hand in terms of representing the vast majority of ordinary people in terms of the laws and social mores.

[Mr Fox]

Not really fond of the Fighting against the good guys who rule with an iron fist since that would kinda make the characters the good guys in a sense.

I'd like to see a mix of character types if that's possible rather than limiting it to one. No reason you can't have a vampire teaming up with a wizard and a in a modern setting with a mad scientist.

One idea that appeals to me is a Heroes like setting where everyone has only one power, but where the heroes also only have one power.

[z017]

Yeah, I kinda like the Heroes-esque set-up as well: modern setting, some groups that have had/known about powers for a while but with the majority of society still in the dark or only now coming into the knowledge. This add some other levels of intrigue to the game as well as some still-figuring-this-all-out for at least some of the characters. I also love moral greys, relative morality in a setting, which seems best suited for modern or futuristic settings than sci-fi.

[SalmonMax]

Agreed. Modern or near-future setting. Supers type powers, but not on a comic book scale.

The concept I'm considering would be a sort of telepath...one able to manipulate people's senses to create hallucinations.

[jameson (ST)]

Setting Time period equivalent: Modern or post-modern.

Setting Type: As I said in chat "once you JLA up that limits the stories to larger scope IMO"; basically I think that the heroic opposition should be on par with villains. When we group up, they do in response. Occasionally maybe they group up first but once the villains dismantle that group the status-quo returns to a state resembling anarchy where the villains are working on their own schemes and the heroes are dealing with their specific nemeses.

Power Types: Anything goes. Werewolves, Mages, super, cyborgs, ninjas, dragons, demons, aliens, mad scientists, devil, psychopaths, tyrannical leaders of small nations ending in "-via", brains in jars, atomic mutants ... etc., etc., etc. The important thing to me is THEME. Let me say that again THEME. Just because you CAN have regeneration doesn't mean that your brain-in-a-jar SHOULD have regeneration.

Anarchy Rating: 11, with the comic book caveat that nobody is ever really dead (unless that player decides to work up a new PC). I think that experience should be retained by the player allowing their villain to be defeated and deposed after a series of stories (assuming we are going with a long running campaign rather than a one-shot or limited series) and allowing a NEW villain to be drawn up with all that player's accrued Exp. Otherwise PvP should be allowed, the GM should moderate things and of course players need understand that the douche who systematically goes after all the other villains is going to be on the receiving end of a rare bout of cooperation between the other villains.

[Mel Grimson]

Setting Time period equivalent: Modern, Super-powered or Sci-Fi.

Setting Type: We got to be on par with the heroes, but the heroes, because they're good, will generally have society's support. Gray areas are good. And a well-fleshed out world.

Power Types: Anything goes, as long as it fits with theme.

Anarchy Rating: Crank it up, Jameson's got the right idea.

[Stargaizer]

Setting Time period equivalent: Modern or fantasy, either goes for me.

Setting Type: Heroes sounds like a good starting point, or basically the beginnings of a Marvel/DC world (powers are known but rare and there aren't any organizations apart from the occasional family (i.e. Fantastic 4) or hero/sidekick combo.

Of course there is also the idea of what was starting to happen with the last villain game, we all get kidnapped by some mega-villainous group/corporation and they have something on each of us making us work for them... That would give us a reason to work together (throwing off the yoke) and make arcs easier on the ST (they let you out of your cells and tell you to go do/steal/kill/kidnap x, y or z). Of course it also limits some creativity, but fosters other kinds (how creative are (successful) prisoner escapees).

Power Types: I would prefer superpowers for the modern, magic or superpowers would be the preference for a fantasy.

Anarchy Rating: Agreed with Jameson.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Stargaizer

Setting Type: Of course there is also the idea of what was starting to happen with the last villain game, we all get kidnapped by some mega-villainous group/corporation and they have something on each of us making us work for them...

I'm just going to say right now I'm not down with that kind of railroading, not as the conceit of the game. Is some amoral NPC going to strongarm PCs into doing something for him (if he can)? Possibly. But not for the basis of the game. I'll happily deal with a bajillion threads of PCs doing their own thing. If you don't want to play alone, I suggest that you find someone who'd want to work with you - if you can trust them to do that. Find your own PC Dr. Girlfriend (or Dr. Mrs. Monarch, if you prefer), if you don't want to play with just me.

[Einherjar]

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

Find your own PC Dr. Girlfriend (or Dr. Mrs. Monarch, if you prefer), if you don't want to play with just me.

Can't I do both? There's so much fun to be had, after all...

[Justin OOC]

I agree with jameson pretty much on everything, looking at modern to near modern, superpowered.

Sword and sourcey comes in second.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: Darkling

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

Find your own PC Dr. Girlfriend (or Dr. Mrs. Monarch, if you prefer), if you don't want to play with just me.

Can't I do both? There's so much fun to be had, after all...

They are the same person actually. Dr. Girlfriend married The (Mighty) Monarch and was renamed Dr. Mrs. The Monarch. *phew* Sometimes under the cold harsh light of logic the Venture Brothers blows my mind. ... of course if you were a temporal controller ... you old dog you

Originally Posted By: Justin OOC

I agree with jameson pretty much on everything, looking at modern to near modern, superpowered.

Can I ask: When you say "superpowered" do you mean "super powers only" or "any kind of superhero/villain powers & origin"? I have to ask because to me "super powers" are fundamentally different from Psionics, Magic, Cybernetics, alien technology, super skills (Batman-esque), Androids, etc. I'm interested in a full open field of power type because I feel that the different descriptors, sources, and origins can often lead to drastically different motivations.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: jameson (ST)

Originally Posted By: Darkling

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

Find your own PC Dr. Girlfriend (or Dr. Mrs. Monarch, if you prefer), if you don't want to play with just me.

Can't I do both? There's so much fun to be had, after all...

They are the same person actually. Dr. Girlfriend married The (Mighty) Monarch and was renamed Dr. Mrs. The Monarch. *phew* Sometimes under the cold harsh light of logic the Venture Brothers blows my mind. ... of course if you were a temporal controller ... you old dog you

Jim, I think he wants to play with his Dr. Girlfriend and with me. It's Ravi being... well, Ravi.

[Justin OOC]

In general Jameson I define superpowered as generally anything beyond normal powers a person would have.

[Ravi FitzCoventry]

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

Jim, I think he wants to play with his Dr. Girlfriend and with me. It's Ravi being... well, Ravi.

Monstrous slander! That's a vile calumny! I resemble that remark- Wait, I mean...

ahh, heck with it... Ya got me

[Davenrell]

From reading this thread it strikes me that you might want to take a look at Necessary Evil, Carv. If not for setting then for rules. The idea behind the world is that all the good guys have been done away with and now the bad guys have to be the "good guys". The rule base however provides for things like what was discussed about comic book deaths. One rule in it is that the players are villains and a true villain never dies. You may disappear for a couple volumes but there will always be an amazing, if odd, story about how you survived on your return.

For me personally to have interest in a evil game my own concern is usually the people in it. When we read books and comics and watch shows we see a mentality to evil that people often have trouble translating to a PC. One primary example of this is the double cross. Look, your evil, and so are all your friends, so who can you trust? NO ONE! We see it all the time villains double cross each other. The problem with most PC villains is the player isn't willing to accept the double cross. They always want revenge or think it means their character can never be a part of that characters story again. The only problem with that belief is that is not how villains work.

As much as I pain to do it lets look at Venture Bros. Dr. Girlfriend has double crossed the Monarch on several occasions. The important thing though is going back to what someone said about the mentality of evil people, they don't think they are evil. Everything is done with the same purpose of following morals that heroes have, they just go further and have very different morals. If Lex Luthor reacted the same way as most players in games did he would have killed the Joker in twenty four hours, but he accepts the Joker is a crazy messed up dude and can still be useful.

Another thing to remember is that there are different levels of villainy. The reason the PC's wouldn't be trying to off each other is they are all at the Master mind or head level. You can't just point a gun and off another PC because they are not a henchmen, if it was that easy then trust me, there are some superheroes who would have resorted to it by now.

If I were to play I would probably be more interested in a modern themed game with different potential origins such as magic, technology, super powers. I think that fantasy evil games are fine but there is little difference between them and fantasy good games except the goals and adventures the PCs embark on. The comic book or TV series genres are far more interesting in my mind and allow for stories that don't have to be near as linear or connected.

[Einherjar]

To butcher Neitzsche:

"He that would go forth to screw with someone who is ruthless, amoral, smart and powerful should take care for their own sake be more so. For if you rob another villain's rhubarb and leave him alive and cognizant of that fact, he will in turn burn your greenhouse down. With you in it."

Luthor tolerates the Joker because he can keep the crazy at arm's length and has next-to-nothing to do with him, at least in the comics. I dunno about the cartoons. If he had to deal with Joker messing his plans up on a regular basis and couldn't figure out how to steer the maniac (and lets face it, Joker isn't easily steered), he'd probably end up killing him.

That is why a lot of players in rpg's tend to either leave the Leeroy Jenkins type of character to die of his own tomfoolery or else off him themselves: it's a realistic reaction. A master manipulator might be able to make short term use of a mad-dog without getting bitten, but sooner or later he's best off tossing the mutt into someone elses backyard and cutting all ties.

As to the revenge thing, again, I like to have my characters react realistically. If a PC screws Darkling over, they'd better make sure he either doesn't find out about it or is beyond taking retribution. Because if he can, he will.

So PC's going around doing half-hearted scheming and saying "Hey, we're evil so it's cool for me to mess up X's plan for shits 'n' giggles" aren't really villains: they're dumbasses giving the villain equivalent of atomic wedgies and running away hooting. A real villain on the receiving end of this will rearrange his underwear then ensure that the responsible parties are never in a position to do it again.

Oh, and I think I'd prefer a little more realism than simply stating "the villain never dies". The reason villains don't seem to die is that they set up schemes and trickery to either fake their death or come back from the dead. I think if we're playing a villain game then we should treat it seriously enough that characters have to either think or throw their lot in with someone who can think for them. Or, you know, do time or die.

[Katalyst]

What is the Nature of Evil? to me being able to do whatever needed to be done to acomplish a goal. If that calls for killing,robbing or hurting someone in the process then so be it.

What are your boundaries? As far as these goes, really nothing to me is off limits, but the more touchy stuff would be implied rather actually written out.

What are you not willing to explore in a game, even off-camera? All the way to dark side!

What motivates evil characters? Greed, power, lust are just some of the things I can think of first hand.

What is a strong story arc for evil PCs?I think it would be a goal that at first seems easy to achieve, then you come to realize that you can't sit back, you have to keep killing, robbing etc, to keep things the way you want them.

What really gets a player excited to write about evil people? Really it's a chance to break from the norm and to explore things that I have only thought about.

And like the others if this game get's off the ground I would play Frank!

[Einherjar]

Fearless Frank?!

[Katalyst]

Indeed the one and only!

[Owns-The-Night]

I knew that mutha was no good!

Grrrr.

[Dawn OOC]

Alright, just to let you all know:

Setting: I'm currently considering a near-future game (thinking 2050) set in a dystopia London.

Characters: All PC types will be considered, if you can come up with a good backstory. I've had enough interest that I'll probably have to cap participation; I'm not putting out a hard number since that will depend on part on how many people start the game working together (since that decreases the threads that I have to do on my own ).

System: M&M 2e, PL 10 (pauses to let the Abby fans finish weeping into their pillows)

I'm not ready to launch or anything like that. I'm still working out the NPCs and such that I need to have set in place. I would like those who have confirmed that they're interest please do so again, with a rough character concept.

[Mel Grimson]

Ok.

Mel is my man and this is the plan:

Amoral Mercenary-type, more like Deathstroke than Deadpool. No powers, just ability and skill. However, he has a quirk, a penchant for taking weapons or other special items from his foes as trophies, and sometimes using those against them.

Of course, the heroes want to take him down, and grudges are borne on both sides. His pair of nemeses are a pair of twin alien visitors, exiled royalty from a race that believes greatly in honor, and hence find his combination of mercenary work and villainy very reprehensible.

[jameson (ST)]

I am interested, oh yes.

Originally Posted By: chat

[Jeremy] 2:40 pm: Jael: is the Evilness M&M 2e or 3e?

     [Jael] 2:40 pm: 2e. I don't know 3e well enough yet.

[jameson] 2:43 pm: maybe I'll just ask here, Carver can you ballpark the rough starting PL and PPs?

     [Jael] 2:44 pm: I'm looking at PL10

[jameson] 2:44 pm: standard 150 pp or an adjusted number?

     [Jael] 2:45 pm: Standard.

I'm mulling over ideas, I'll get a concept up shortlyish

I'm leaning toward an Undead Necromancer/Wizard type at the moment, but that could change...

[Mr Fox]

I was thinking of a vampire. Could be very interesting in a near-future non-WoD setting. Assuming I'm invited to play that is.

[SalmonMax]

I'd like to try my manipulator concept...a telepath specializing in subtle mind reading and causing hallucinations. She runs a kind of grey market business selling people vivid fantasies to live out...anything goes. Of course, she uses that opportunity to sift through their memories as well and make note of any closeted skeletons.

This is not a big in your face evil character, but a quiet creeping evil. She prefers acting through others when possible, or via projected images.