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Aberrant: Theomachy - Gameplay Discussion


Blue Thunder

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Sky: He's already said that Growth doesn't do anything to Dex or Str (beyond what the Power Descript already says), and he's said it twice.

What he is saying that if we wanted to make it more realistic, then we'd have to go after Dex as well as Str. If we wanted to make it more realistic.

We're talking about hypotheticals here, not actuals. So to sum up what BT is saying (so that he can focus on moving the game world forward next time he comes on, rather than answering these questions for a third time), Growth adds +2Str, +1Sta, +1Bruised HL, and +2Dex (only for determining speed) for every dot in the power. It does not add extra Str beyond Mega-5, it does not add automatic levels of the Lifter Enhancement (as I suggested it might), nor does it impose a difficulty penalty on Dexterity (as BT is saying it would if we wanted to make it more "realistic"), and if BT does have any House Rules concerning Growth he hasn't told us about them yet.

Got all that? Good!

Next question! ::tongue

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The mechanics are all written out, I'm still typing in the backstory.

EDIT: And what is our base swimming speed?

Swimming speed is 7 meters, plus 1 meter for each dot of Athletics your character has. Unless you have the Webbed Hands/Feet body mod, in which case it is double your Running speed.

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I don't think so, the Swimming descrip doesn't indicate that it's [Athletics Dice Pool] that modifies the base swimming speed, it just says "per dot of Athletics". I.E. the maximum swimming speed that a normal person can have is 12 meters per round.

Obviously, that's open to some debate. I generally assume that when they say "[Ability]", they just mean the skill itself, unmodified by the parent Att, and when they say "[Ability Dice Pool]" that's when they want you to add in the parent Att. But I'm sure that exceptions to that rule could be found (this being a WW game - and one from 12 years ago, no less). So I suppose BT has final say, but my assumption has always been that Swimming is 7-12 meters for anyone without Webbed Hands/Feet, Flight (liquid), or Hypermovement (swimming).

EDIT: Though if you meant to ask whether Enhanced Movement would modify this, then I would say it most definitely would.

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Yeah swimming is specifically mentioned in the Enhanced Movement Enhancement description.

Still even at 12 m per round that's 36 feet through water in 3 seconds, which is pretty darn fast for a human, especially considering that the world record in RL is only 2.29 m/s or 6.87 m/round...

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Still even at 12 m per round that's 36 feet through water in 3 seconds, which is pretty darn fast for a human, especially considering that the world record in RL is only 2.29 m/s or 6.87 m/round...
It's 8.9 miles per hour (human).

In water form he can do 27 mph, with enhanced movement that's 54 mph, which is better than a shark. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_fast_can_sharks_swim

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Issue #1

Random rambling time...

In the first incarnation of the game I was gonna do away with Backgrounds completely. No Resources, no Pantheon, no Worshipers, nothing. I was just gonna talk with each player about what they wanted for their character in terms of Pantheon rank, size of cult, level of fame, etc. Stuff like Weapon, Armor, Beast, etc. would be tailored on a case-by-case basis instead of by guidelines (and magic gear would not be limited to weapons and armor either!). I thought that those would better fit the "freestyle rules" theme I was going with. It would also allow me to freely introduce unique things into the game instead of having all novas operate by the same guidelines. I added Backgrounds at the end (hence the wait for them) because I figured people would like the sense of gameplay balance more. But my focus is on roleplay balance obviously (we have no Xp, for example!).

Do you prefer having actual Background ratings? Or would you prefer having Backgrounds be a roleplayed tool and not a stat?

(Note: You would still get special items like weapons. But instead of building them with my slapped-together rules, they would be made freeform and just have to pass the approval of the St and other players. Creating that Mjolnir knock-off would be that much easier!)

Just putting it out there. I want to get all possibilities discussed before we start, not after. I personally would prefer the no Backgrounds route, but will be fine if everyone wants Backgrounds still. No harm done. Let me hear your thoughts.

Issue #2

I'm posting regional information soon so you guys know what your domain is like. I'm only going to define about half of the domain, leaving the other half for later when we get around to it. Just pretend this is a video game, and those parts of the domain are covered by a fog of war effect because you haven't wandered through them or they aren't story relevent yet. Same effect!

Also, I might make a nifty map with GIMP. Depends on how good I get at it.

Issue #3

Sorry for the slow posting these last few days. That isn't like me at all; I'm usually all over these things. Stuff just kept coming up but it's hopefully resolved now. Back to normal I hope.

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1.) Hey man I reeallly love the new backgrounds. I am sort of old school White Wolf that way but to me they are really balanced and inspired and it gives that sense of tradeoffs...ie do I want the really powerful sword or do I want to be more famous? I vote keep them, although you can ditch Sanctum if you really want to since we are part of a larger Pantheon.

2.) Please give me (and Cottus) my (our) Information Crack....

Daddy needs his info!

3.) Weekend after Holidaze...food coma...we understand.

:Whack!: NOw keeps those hands away from TF2 and pay attention to this truly creative endeavor...

That is all. Carry on. ::happy

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I trust you, its not about trust. I just realy like the inherent checks and balances of having to choose what you want for your character. Also I like knowing where I rate in relation to to other things. For example I purposefully took Pantheon at 1 because I ama newcomer and because I want to raise through the ranks as I go. Since we aren;t using normal xp this should be easier, but I still like the rating.

I dunno man, I've said my piece so I should let the others chime in but I think you did a great job on the backgrounds and again, appeals to the old White Wolfer in me...

Plus I am really (really!) happy with the way my backgrounds turned out and spent alot of time deciding how to balance things.

Laslty we need things to be defined in the system. Things like Beasts and Champions. You did a great job there... I mean even if you stripped away the backgrounds I would want to keep my beast exactly the same as it is now. Really. Unles what you are really trying to say is lets ditch the system altogether and go freeform which I am, sadly, not in favor of.

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Started the Darmathian Domain thread. I'm purposefully making multiple entries with tiny blurbs of text so I can edit the entries with more later. If you guys have an idea for a new region run it by me, but for now, let's limit ourselves to regions that might have to do with our character's origins.

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The Devil you say?! ::devil

Hmm...Anyways I was thinking about what BT and I were IMing about earlier regarding backgrounds and how going more freeform would let us have quirks and abilities that go beyond what is covered by canon rules. I like that idea actually but I would be happiest I think with a compromise between the two. I believe that is why BT included the special ability??? in the enhancment sections.

As a great example of this in action, I had a Captain Marvel esque character over at NPrime. The ST Titan, who was also an awesome ST, randomly just gave me a bonus power when I bought enhanced hearing. Basically whenever anyone called out my characters name anywhere in the world, he could hear it and rush to the aid. This actually worked nicely since my characters powers were actually "psionicly" based quantum powers and he had some other mental stuff going on with psychic link. The point is it worked, it was ST fiat, there was no dot or system to define it, and it made a nice addition to all the cool dots I did enjoy investing in.

So yeah, perhaps instead of either/or we can try a both/and?

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After talking things over with BT last night myself, I think I'm in favor of the freeform system of BGs that he is proposing. I was a bit skeptical at first, but after talking out some of Kalakutesh's backgrounds with him, we were able to achieve a degree of customization not possible (or at least not easily accomplished) with the straightforward dot method.

But I won't lose any sleep over it if the rest of you vote to continue using BG dots.

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IMHO things are good the way they are. I.e. you can spend points on backgrounds putting a floor under them, you can also roll play for them.

Without experience and the spending of experience, backgrounds (which will increase and decrease anyway) are already sort of vague.

RE: Mjolnir

I'm not sure having 6+ copies of this running around would be a good thing. ;)

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Personally, I like the dots. I'm cool with BT using a bit of handwavium with them, but like Sky, I like knowing our relative levels in backgrounds, as well as having to choose whether my points are going to be spent raising various backgrounds or building my powers directly.

NPCs: Do I get to write up Coraline's father and brother, since they (well, dad at least) are part of the known and famous warriors of Darmathia?

BT: For Precog, I think Coraline will need to have the person who desires a vision come to her with some kind of clockwork/mechanical device (ie, it has to have moving parts) that has been "annointed" with at least 1 HL of blood. That way, she doesn't have to deal with everybody. The person seeking the vision doesn't have to have built the device themselves (thus leaving me a small money-making option), they just have to have carefully annointed it with their blood in some kind of ceremony (as long as the ceremony is vaguely religious and has meaning to the person, it doesn't matter to Coraline). [edit] Specifically, she'll sit and 'meditate' with said device, staring at it as it actuates/moves/whatevers, and over the course of a few minutes have the vision. It will be limited to visions of a personal sort for everyone except herself, so kings can't send advisors to her in their place to hope for a vision of their reign, etc. For herself, she has to build the device and still sacrifice 1 HL, but visions she gives herself both take longer and can be of anything, subject to the time limitations in the Pretercognition power description. [/edit]

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I like where BT is going with this also Cent. However that is why he added the "special?????" clause for some of them. Why can't we do both? For example Draygos has no worshippers and little fame in this Domain, but in his home Domain his Legend would be higher. BT's argument to me was that a magic sword for example could hum in the presence of your evil twin, or do extra damage to those of evil intention, or keep the Keepers at bay, etc. That kind of thing does go outside of the system, but alot of it sounds mostly for flavor and story purposes anyway so....why don't we do both? There is no good reason not to do both imho.

if I still got to keep my backgrounds as is though (meaning my sword and beast) it would be cool to get 4 NP back though! Funny thing is though had I not had to play with the points I might not have had the inspiration for the beast in the first place! Necessity being the mother of invention and all...

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NPCs: Do I get to write up Coraline's father and brother, since they (well, dad at least) are part of the known and famous warriors of Darmathia?

PM your baackstory to me. Or did you already? I have so many PMs already I had to go and clean out all my old saved ones ^^;

Don't make any stats for them just yet. Just an explanation of what their purpose and powers are, and any other important factors.

On the issue of Backgrounds:

If we did remove Backgrounds I would honor any Background choices you already made, but you would also have more freedom to do expand upon them. It's really hard to quantify things like Legend with dots and have them make sense. Not having Backgrounds also lets you have more freedom to come up with whatever you want for a background, and for your character's place in the story. You wouldn't have to reduce your character's fame and position just because you also want a good weapon.

The most important thing to remember is this: I'm not an evil or mean Storyteller* and we all trust each other**. I'm not the type to send players into situations in an attempt to kill them, I'm not going to destroy your prized belongings unless there is a trade-off that we discuss beforehand, I'm not going to kill your magic animal friend intentionally, etc. I was a little bit restrictive in NoLK because you were up against much more powerful adversaries and constrained by the nature of the setting. And while you are up against even more powerful enemies here, you also have more power yourselves, and more freedom within the world to do whatever you want with that power.

(*Right?)

(**Right?)

I also trust you guys. If I let you have a sword that has the power to cleave the tops off of mountains, I know you're not going to abuse that power in-game without understanding that there are consequences. I've played with all of you before (except Meta and Sable, but you two don't come off as twinks) and are you aren't amateurs and power-gamers. You guys roleplay. So I wouldn't have to put some Background restriction on what you get. Your character's place in the world would be whatever you wanted them to be. Any restrictions would be presented by me and only to preserve some story balance. When I was talking with Cottus when first making his character, he was constantly trying to fit his character within his Background limits. Then I talked about having no Backgrounds at all, and then we talked about how his character would work and the ideas suddenly started coming out and he wasn't restricted anymore. His background was whatever we wanted it to be.

I was gonna bring this up before but there was originally another Background called Relic. This was going to be a catch-all for any magic item that didn't fall into the weapon/armor category. But I just couldn't make it work. You can separate Weapons and Armor with dots because they give a bonus per dot, but how would you rank an item that is completely unique? And how can you compare two different Relics together? I just decided to avoid it. If we avoid the backgrounds altogether this won't be an issue. So how would things like Weapon and Armor work? You would post your ideas for your weapons, armor, magic companions, relic-like items, etc. here and we would all discuss them. I've noticed that when we make our character ideas public and get input from others, they end up getting improved because of suggestions.

The only thing that would need to be handled are Champions, but that can be worked out easily I'm sure. That's the only Background I made thinking that it was new and unique. And as Cotus said, if we don't have Backgrounds, that's more NP to spend on other stuff.

On Pantheon:

BTW everyone, here is my very rough draft of what the Pantheon BG ranking does for Darmathia. Notice dot 3 doesn't even have a description yet! And you may notice I jacked a bunch of old Greek words. I didn't want to go with boring words like "general" and "governor" that's why.

1 - Allowed to live in Darmathia. The nova has no actual rank but is still expected to obey the Pantheon in times of crisis on penalty of exile or death. Though he is not subject to all of the same laws as baselines he is still watched closely for suspicious activity. Less is expected of him, yet less is tolerated from him.

2 - Minimum Pantheon authority. The standard starting rank within the Pantheon itself. The nova is given respect from baselines and servants and is able to attend Pantheon meetings upon invitation. The nova can be assigned a region of Darmathia to be their "officium" (office). The nova is expected to assist their region in whatever capacity they can but are not punished for neglecting it. They are not required to take an officium though, and can instead opt to be free-roaming.

3 - ???

4 - At this point the nova can be recognized for a particular service or specialty, and they can gain a special title from it. They will become a chief authority on the matter, maybe even the greatest in the domain.

5 - At this rank the nova is able to call together and lord over Pantheon meetings. He can also gain a residence at the Pantheon Hall if he chooses.

6 - This is the minimum required to become a Dux, though reaching this level does not make one a Dux automatically. Each region can only have one Dux and he has broad authority over his region, able to command most of it's resources and manpower (if it has any).

7 - At this rank the nova is given immunity to certain law punishments that would hinder their activities. The exact punishments they are exempt from can change over time, but generally extend to acts of violence. They can only be given severe punishments by the Legate. This is the rank most novas stop at unless they become military leaders.

8 - The rank of Legatus, or general. The nova has command of vast military forces. There can only be four Legate at any time and they can only be given this position by the Absolute.

9 - The rank of Imperator / Imperatrix (male / female). Directly under the Absolute. The position is currently shared by Marmir's three wives.

10 - The Absolute. Has complete authority over the Darmathian domain. Whatever he says goes.

Whether we do away with Backgrounds or not, the rankings system would remain. Though looking at it, I can easily combine 3, 4, and 5 together and 6 and 7 together.

And lastly, my AIM screenname is AdmiralBlue108 if you want to give me a holler. I'm almost always set to AFK but that's just to prevent pop-ups when I'm doing things.

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And also, I forgot!

You guys are free to suggest regions. If you want to have your character come from a specific area of Darmathia, drop me a line or two describing it and I'll add it to the list. Most of the places I've come up with are wilderness, but that doesn't mean we can't have other cities in the domain. There can be things like kingdoms too.

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Okay I'm sold, away with the Backgrounds!

That being said here is my idea for my sword. As is it is just a +5 Vorpal Sword...er I mean a 5 dot [Deadly] Weapon. ::tongue The idea is that it is indestructable and also never loses it's very sharp edge with which to cleave the heads off of [very large things].

The way the backstory goes is that upon completing a quest or quests for Hestia, the smith (tangent I made the name Hestia thinking of a female version of Hephaestus...turns out there is actually another Greek Godess with that name...doh!), she would revel to him it's true power(s)

Of which I was thinking:

Armor Piercing

The ability to seperate into a Whip-Sword (maybe)

Taking the attuned weapon ability upon reaching Quantum 5 and..it;s so sharp he can cut open warp portals in space with it...awesome yeah? The attuned weapon summoning ability would function the same way, with the sword "cutting its way through reality" and appearing in his hand.

Lastly, the Disrupt Power.

Now granted these were all within the framework of the RAW so maybe there are better ways to go, but that is what I was planning.

I also like the idea of the backstory fitting the character...I think I will still be a newcomer with pantheon 1, but I have worshippers in a far off Domain but in order to really utilize them I have to go to war and reclaim my throne. That sort of thing. Might be nice to have abit higher of Legend as well, though not too high in this Domain as again he is a newcomer. BUt in his home Domain he would have a very high Legend, complete with prophecies and a Destiny to fullfill....

Edit: Upon closer reading, I think the way I have planned my introduction, Draygos might go from being the newcomer with Pantheon of 1, to 4 (recognized Monster SLayer) quite quickly...

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Not having Backgrounds also lets you have more freedom to come up with whatever you want for a background, and for your character's place in the story. You wouldn't have to reduce your character's fame and position just because you also want a good weapon.
Yeah, but we're supposed to balance our characters, and making those kinds of choices is good for us. My view is we should earn our backgrounds in play or pay for them. That doesn't mean we can't try to improve our artifacts after the start of the game (improve our understanding of them, our control of them, or put more primal into them), but the time we spend on that takes away from our other pursuits.

King Triton (I.e. the mermaid's dad) only whips up storms with his Trident (which is presumably my Trident now). The only reason why my character would do the same is if there were some benefit offered, reduced q-cost, increased accuracy, etc. That *sounds* like a major enhancement... but starting the game with it is like skipping to the end of a mystery book. IMHO it subtracts, rather than adding, to the game.

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Well then...so far we have two votes for and two against with 3 votes uncast and the ST in favor of for (eliminating backgrounds). We need input from Shade, Sable, and Meta.

Alex, just to point out again that none of us are here to break the game, we still need BT's approval, and things tend to balance out. For example, Shade's character has an *obscene* Legend...BUT he has the powers to make that plausible, doesn't have any Pantheon, no worshippers, magic weapons, or any direct combat abilities whatsoever for that matter. We each will have our strengths and weaknesess.

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I'm not concerned either way, though I do believe that as a ST you have the burden on your shoulders. To that end, I'm all about making that as easy as possible as a player. I think if you want to do away with them, its fine with me. Its not like this game is out of the book anyway, a lot has been changed and for the better IMO.

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This is something that BT and I worked out together while discussing Kalakutesh's backgrounds. It adds to, but doesn't actually change, anything that BT has already posted in the IC threads. BT told me he'd be copy/pasting this into one of the threads soon, but I figured I'd share it with you guys in the meantime.

In the forgotten ages of long ago, after the First Gods had retreated from the world in sadness over the depravity of their creations, certain of the children of Gaia were uplifted and taken into the Upper Realms to dwell with their Creators, there to bring happiness and companionship to those lonely Deities. These were the Second Gods, and for a time their companionship was enough for the First Ones. But after many ages had passed, some among the Second Gods forgot their origin and their calling and returned to their old degenerate ways, and these were the first signs of what was to come. These wayward gods were cast out of Heaven by the First Gods, as a warning to their brothers and sisters and as an example of what might befall them. The First Gods cursed these degenerate godlings, renaming and recasting them as demons and fell spirits, and sending them hurtling back into the Middle Realms of Gaia.

But the First Gods, seeing that the Fallen Ones’ evil exceeded even that of the mortal races from which they had first come, took pity on the lowly mortals and determined that they should have protection. And so they chose from among the Second Gods those who were willing and whom they deemed worthy and sent them down to act as a check against the evil the Fallen sought to wreak upon Gaia. Having done this much for mortals, the First Gods turned their backs once again on Creation, and returned to their games and contemplations in the Upper Realms. This was many ages before the Great Exile, and the departure of the First Gods for Elsewhere, and during the long ages in between, the memories of those Second Gods who had remained in Heaven grew dim until they had all but forgotten those stalwart few who had descended into the Middle Realms to act as the protectors of the mortal races.

In later ages, these ancient beings were remembered by mortal races as the Old Gods, the Watchers in the Wilderness, Guardian Spirits, and many other names besides. But the Second Gods and the Fallen know them as the Wardens, for they were charged by the First Gods with the care of Gaia and her children. These secretive deities were rarely seen by mortals, who knew little of their natures or activities, or of the many great battles they fought against the fallen spirits who sought to destroy Creation. And neither did the Wardens seek tribute or worship from their charges, or even suffer mortals to gaze upon their true forms, except in rare and extraordinary circumstances. For the First Ones had not commanded them to rule over the mortal races of Gaia, as they did the Second Gods, but only to protect them against the Fallen Ones and their evil. This they did for many long years of the Middle Realms, fighting in the wilds and the forgotten places of the ancient world, waging uncounted and nameless wars against the Fallen Ones, while the godless mortals huddled together and built fires to ward against the darkness as they tried not to hear when a strange deity or nameless evil passed them by in the night.

Kalakutesh is a 2nd Gen offspring of these Wardens, whose pantheons were largely absorbed by the pantheons of the Second Gods after their exile. The background story for K that I posted last week, involving K's parents (the Kalakuta and Anmu), would actually have taken place long, long before the Second Gods were cast out of the Upper Realms when the First Gods left. The 'Fallen Ones' (or simply 'demons', if you prefer) are still around, though only BT knows just how many are left, where they are, and how old or powerful they are. They are also of a fundamentally different nature than our characters (or any other 'Second God'), having been recast by the First Gods as part of their curse, so expect BT to pull out some kind of freaky weirdness when we finally encounter one. Wardens - even 2nd Gen Wardens like Kalakutesh - are very rare, very old, and the majority of them tend to keep to themselves and stay out of Pantheon politics as much as possible.

And so, on to the Free Form Backgrounds section of this post:

Kalakutesh will only have background 'ratings' in Armor, Legend, Pantheon, and Worshipers.

For his armor, I was simply planning on him having a straightforward Metamorphic Armor. When he's in his default dragon form the armor simply takes the form of his scales, but when he transforms into his 'Champion form' his armor transforms with him into regal robes of an Oriental-style design. When in his Dragon form the armor is of Medium class, and in Champion form his robes are of the Light class. BT and I did discuss the possibility of his scales also possessing the ability to store quantum points, in a manner similar to Eufiber, making the scales of his Armor coveted by certain unsavory individuals because of this property. However, this special ability isn't mandatory in my mind, so if the rest of you think this is too much then simply say so, and I will happily abandon that idea.

Regarding his place in the Darmathian Pantheon, BT thinks he would best fit in at the rough equivalent of Rank 7 (on the modified rank chart that BT posted in this thread the other day). However, Kalakutesh operates largely outside of the authority structure of the Darmathian pantheon, while still being officially a part of it. He is essentially allowed to continue his ancient responsibilities as a Warden, and as such he has the authority and privileges necessary to do so, but he is not considered to be "in line for the throne", so to speak. This last part is because Marmir's wives have gone to some trouble to keep him outside of the direct line of Command (a fact that K is both aware of and indifferent to), on account of his being the son of Kalakuta, who was the Absolute of his own pantheon. They fear (needlessly) that he might try to displace Marmir as the ruler of the Darmathian pantheon if given too much authority.

Kalakutesh's Legend is widespread within Darmathia, mostly due to how long he's been operating there, and he is viewed as a kind of cultural icon or symbol rather than as a 'legendary deity'. His name and legend is known in the surrounding Domains as well, but as he is a Warden and so tends to keep to himself and stay out of the limelight, what Legend he has in those areas is usually quite sparse and lacking in real detail. Among the Fallen, on the other hand, he is quite infamous and much hated.

Regarding Worshipers and his cult: Kalakutesh's cult is one of the oldest in Darmathia, but it is also one of the least centralized and has largely been absorbed or integrated into other cults over time (similar to the way that Chinese folk religion has been almost entirely absorbed by the later religions of Buddhism and Taoism). While it is common to see small shrines to the Dragon on roadsides just outside of towns all over Darmathia (placed there by villagers for the supplication of the Dragon so that he will protect their village from natural disasters, monsters, and other such dangers), as well as to see statues in Kalakutesh's likeness or discs bearing his symbol mounted over dams and water canals (for essentially the same reasons as the shrines outside villages), there are only a tiny handful of actual temples dedicated to him in all the land, and most who pray at his shrines are actually part of another god's cult. The few temples devoted to the Dragon that are still active are all located atop isolated and sacred mountains, or built on tiny and remote islands in the middle of large lakes. The monks who spend their lives at these temples are very ascetic, and are renowned for their skills in the martial arts, which they allege were taught to them by the Dragon himself in ages long past.

So that's all I've got. Enjoy, and let me know what you guys think.

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*Very* nice Cottus!

So far yours and Shades, possibly Alexs feel the most like gods...old, legendary, primal. I especially like the part about the little roadside shrines...very Shinto. I also like the idea of the remote monasteries, and how it really captures the flavor of the martial arts mastery...

I'm feeling a bit meh though about the Eufiber thing, because its not something the rest of us have access to but I suppose I can live with it since BT is now going to be hooking us up with extra customized specialness.

soin that case, sounds good to me.

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