Aberrant: Stepping from Eden - Stepping from Eden

[Heru]

SkyLion

The problem is that I don't see it as a problem in the diplomatic part of the campaign, I see my flaws as method of roleplaying. When my character responds to baselines that he is intolerant of he will shape it (not cancel it out, but shape and direct it) in ways that seem honorable but are actually veiled threats. And yes, given, that for me it will be a little hard, but for a mega-mental nova such as Imperos coming up with ways to sound like your being nice but at the same time secretly insulting is not that hard of a thing for him.

I do not see flaws (or any game mechanics) as one way looking things, to me, they can be twisted and manipulated to better make a character that is fun and cool to play. Its not weaseling out of anything, its trying to make the basic flaw which is generic fit the specific instance of my character. I see nothing wrong with that. The one flaw shapes the other flaw, not cancels it out. And its not against baselines, its against baselines acting like an equal to a nova.

And from what I gathered from reading Rorx information it seemed like we were going to interruct most often with psion politicians and stuff. Not the generic UN representative.

As to the beauty thing, that is in no way the point of the character. Your character revolves around his looks, and probably has cool abilities for that, my character just looks like a Greek god and then moves on. I need to modify the voice thing, because voice like an angel is not what i was going for.

As to the trademark thing, yeah, your right, that does sound a little unhonorable. I was looking to connect it with the Lusty flaw but instead I got something that seems crappy. That one I will think about changing the dynamics of.

Alistaire

Like I said above and I think I will have to say multiple times, the two flaws do not cancel each other out. They shape each other. One effects how my character (and thus I in my writing) show the flaws. Instead of being "shut up you stupid mortal" it will be a compliment that carefully hides an insult that a baseline might feel but not directly be able to pick up.

Also like I said, I honestly do not care if I get social penalties. Those penalties though are not based on my Taint Rating which means they do not effect people in the same way. And that is what matters. Since I have them as Quantum induced flaws, they do not scream alien, bizarre or corrupt to those who look at them. Yes, people who look at me might not like it (hence a small penalty) but that penalty can go away when they get to know me, unlike the permanent Taint penalty which cannot. There is nothing corrupt about my appearance, so it won't show up on Psion scans.

SkyLion

This then is a matter of opinion on the reading the source material. To my eyes the novas rule baselines, that the laws are made by novas, that the upper decisions are nova made. That all higher authority ends with the novas. And that novas rule all as they see fit, and baselines are trained to accept that. So while not all novas have the flaw of intolerance all novas are intolerant toward baselines - its mentioned how the nova Apollo ignored the baseline members of the diplomatic party, its the same thing probably for others.

Alex Green

I agree with you, but I am not ignoring the flaw. I am directing it in a different light. I am coming out and saying the insulting things using Mega-Intelligence to carefully word what I am saying. So I am saying it directly according to the character's abilities, but to others it won't sound that direct. Which is not my character's fault, he does what he needs to do.

Knave

Yeah, I agree with you.

++

Look, I will go over the Trademark flaw again. The aberrations as flaws do not cause me to focus on beauty so that is not really an issue.

As to the Intolerance thing, remember that Imperos has a bunch of Mega-Mentals. He things on a level above humanity in most things. He also does not have any Dorm. So because of this what he would consider direct is not the same as what baselines might consider direct. So he, using his Mega-Intelligence, would say something that sounds polite but that he knows is a direct insult. And so would the baseline, on some level, and yet he wouldn't be able to pin point what was said that was insulting. I do not see how this is wrong when one considers the Mega-Intelligence, Mega-Perception, Mega-Wits and Mega-Manipulation that he has.

[Alex Green]

I agree with you, but I am not ignoring the flaw. I am directing it in a different light. I am coming out and saying the insulting things using Mega-Intelligence to carefully word what I am saying. So I am saying it directly according to the character's abilities, but to others it won't sound that direct. Which is not my character's fault, he does what he needs to do.

Fair enough. It's not my call or my character. If you think it works and won't be a crushing problem then that's that.

the novas rule baselines, that the laws are made by novas, that the upper decisions are nova made. That all higher authority ends with the novas. And that novas rule all as they see fit, and baselines are trained to accept that.

I pretty much agree with this. There is no "separate but equal". Above a certain level the novas are in charge. What that level is depends on what the novas do. Presumably there is a nova around with mega-mentals making laws, etc.

[Jackson Creed]

Even Jack Jameson (who is arguably the most human in mindset of the characters put forward so far) accepts the reverence from Edenite baselines. However, this is only because he doesn't want to confuse them rather than any feeling of superiority. He would treat psions, and indeed, non-Eden baselines as equals without a second thought. However, just because he treats them as equals does not mean that they actually are; Jack is smarter and more knowledgeable than any human alive. Some humans may come close, or even possibly equal him in one, maybe two, areas, but Jack almost literally is an expert on everything. He can make deductive, cross disciplinery, leaps that leave baselines standing.

His mind is as far beyond most baseline adults as they are beyond a small child (the odd child may be precocious and have meaningful insight, but not on anything remotely close to the same level as an equivalent adult). It's also fair to assume that Jack probably feels the same way about most of the Novas on Eden as well; they may be fellow Novas but their powers are generally showy and physical/energy rather than mental. No-one except Mega-Int Novas with a broad array of skill will be on the same mental plain as Jack.

So I agree that all the Eden Novas have different mindsets to baselines, and each other don't forget, they just express it in different ways. My only concern with the flaws was that it had potential for story wrecking. If they can be properly rp'd then by all means go for it! ::biggrin

JC

[Heru]

Alex Green,

I didn't comment on this before, but your point about the timing of your Eruption, yeah, pretty close to spot on. I mean if your character was an adult baseline before Erupting (the most high social growth) he won't really dismiss baselines as lower entities. It provides to the group a character who can talk to baselines as near equals and talk to novas as equals, a balancing factor.

I don't have a problem with constructive criticism, I mean every comment somebody makes about the character aids in be developing a better view of who he is. For example, the mention about the Trademark thing, yeah, that won't work with the obsession honor thing. I didn't even think of it that way until somebody mentioned it.

So, I personally, do not think that there will be a problem. My character doesn't hate baselines, he just hates it when one of them acts like they are his equal. But because he feels that all beings should be treated honorably and with respect, a position he has taken due to his enlightenment and advancement as a nova, he won't stoop to be baseline-insulting.

The other issue, as I mentioned, is that his Mega-Intelligence, Mega-Perception and Mega-Wits makes him think different than normal baselines - in fact he things on a level that no baseline (and really, when you consider it no psion either) can equal. So, why would he insult somebody in a baseline way, he wouldn't, he would insult them in a nova-ish way, beyond their direct ability to comprehend yet soemthing that they would feel, but cannot prove.

Yes, as with all things about the Mega-attributes, this might be hard to roleplay as I am not a mega person. But I will try my hardest to make the fact that when my character talks to baselines who are pretending to be an equal that the direct words sounds polite and respectful, but that the feelings behind it, the way he phrases things, the way he directs his statements makes it so that in his mind he is insulting the baseline. And while other mega-int or perception novas can detect it, baselines cannot, they just get a sense but no confirmation. Its like an inside joke between two novas at the expense of the baseline.

As to your second point about Eden society, yeah, exactly. The Eden novas would probably scoff at the idea of separate but equal. The two groups are so not equal.

Jackson Creed,

Your character concept sounds awesome. While my character is pretty capable in certain things (he has mega-int at 2, some of the other megas at 1) he is not as broad in a direct ability sense as you are. He is smart (academics at near 5) but not so broad. Anyway, your character sounds like its going to be a very cool one to see and interact with as the game progresses.

Your points are good and very informative, I like. I agree with you as well on them, that is pretty much how I see things as well.

As to your issue with the flaws, yeah, I am going to try my damnedest to play them in an entertaining but no problematic way. If it doesn't turn out the way I expect or hope that yes, I will ask the ST permission to modify things. But I don't think that they will. My character ill insult some baselines in an entirely nova way, a way that you will pick up no doubt a mile away, and probably talk to me about it (or you might enjoy how I say things without saying things they understand). But I will be honorable, charming, and diplomatic. And I will not crush them.

But I do have to say that, and maybe its just my false interpretation of Rorx's posts, but it seemed that a lot of diplomats were going to be psions. Which, if that is true, then he won't have a problem with interacting with them as near equals (they really cannot equal him, due to their lack of megas, but he will ignore that).

++++

Look, if I do something that you guys find as not fun, not playing nice, or not entertaining or that takes away from the fun, tell me please (private message is preferable on the more indepth problems, but open post is fine for most). I am willing to listen to advice and suggesstions if done politely. I don't want anything that I do, or not do, to take away from the fun of this game. That would take away its very point.

Thanks.

[SkyLion]

The problem is that I don't see it as a problem in the diplomatic part of the campaign, I see my flaws as method of roleplaying. When my character responds to baselines that he is intolerant of he will shape it (not cancel it out, but shape and direct it) in ways that seem honorable but are actually veiled threats. And yes, given, that for me it will be a little hard, but for a mega-mental nova such as Imperos coming up with ways to sound like your being nice but at the same time secretly insulting is not that hard of a thing for him.

I still feel like Intolerance as you have it now is inapprpriate for this game as it has been described. You are either going to be visibly intolerant (no fair getting out of the flaw by being intolerant in a nice way, even by saying you would couch things in ways they wouldn't understand) or you are going to blow your wad of willpower *very* fast.

A superiority complex is fine, but Flaws like this actually *do* curb your roleplaying if you are going to take them for points. I recommend picking something else that is more condusive to dealing with humans on a productive level.

[Heru]

As Intolerance is a 1 point Flaw, all I need is to find a single flaw to get my numbers to be the same if I choose to remove Intolerance from the character sheet.

I was thinking of Overconfidence, Minority or Secret. Though I dislike the fact that I am not able to not fight in Overconfidence, and I cannot figure what Minority or Secret I would choose.

[Alistaire]

Like I said above and I think I will have to say multiple times, the two flaws do not cancel each other out. They shape each other. One effects how my character (and thus I in my writing) show the flaws. Instead of being "shut up you stupid mortal" it will be a compliment that carefully hides an insult that a baseline might feel but not directly be able to pick up.

Meh, whatever. It's Rorx' call anyway. I was just saying that I wouldn't allow it in my game. I get that merits and flaws can be "customized"; heck, I do it with Natures and abilities too. But you've customized this guy's "obsession" in such a way that it is no longer a flaw. How is always being polite to people a problem? Especially in a diplomatic campaign, I'd almost be willing to call it a one point merit, and rename it "Unfailingly Polite"; definately an advantage in diplomacy when you don't fly off the handle or get (overtly) angry at someone. Worse still, it does negate the problem of the Intolerance, as I see it anyway. Intolerance is designed to make it harder for you to interact with a certain class of people; those people then pick up on it and like you less for being poorly treated. If you are hiding it, no matter how, then they do not like you less and thus, no penalty.

And frankly it wouldn't even be as big of deal (to me anyway) except that they are part of an eleven-point flaw package, which usually appears as a point-grab. If any of the PCs in my game wanted that many, I'd expect them to be deeply flawed people with lots of problems during the game. I usually tell players that while they may want all these things that the points buy them, that they will get the points later, in terms of XP, and to for now just imagine the character at an earlier stage of their life, before they become the bad-ass they want them to be. It'll come in time, and without all those nasty flaws holding you back. But then you say this is all for the character concept, isn't it? Then it comes down again to whether the points "earned" with these flaws accurately reflect the problems that this guy will run into.

But like I said, it's Rorx' game. Whatever he decides goes. I'm playing a psion anyway so it doesn't affect me.

[Alex Green]

Also I don't know what your social stats are like, but you have aberrations and you're wracking up the social flaws. Complicated mind that baselines can't figure out or not, you're still at +2 social diff as near as I can tell.

IMHO you're probably better off getting rid of some of these little flaws and getting one or two big ones. Combat Paralysis or Low Pain Threshold are over priced.

If I may ask, what Merits did you get anyway?

[Heru]

Flaws provide extra bonus points that can be used just like normal bonus points. So, I used the extra to purchase extra Quantum and willpower.

I have Taint 3, which means no social penalty. The other flaws besides Intolerance do not give me social penalties. so I am pretty good if I don't take intolerance.

Like I said, Intolerance is a 1 point flaw, and so I need to replace it with a 1 point flaw. If I can do that then the numbers in my character sheet work very well. Nor would my character be a problem for the game.

That is actually why I don't want to take Overconfidence, it makes it hard for my character to back down, which could cause problems if baselins or psions give me problems.

I could take the Pacifist. It would go with the fact that very few of my abilities relate to combat. I don't start combat but I have no problem with defending or fighting once combat breaks out. Its a 1 point Flaw so it is not that big of a deal.

[Alistaire]

Pacifist is good. People like pacifists, especially when they're worried about being invaded by super-monsters. I mean that they prefer them to the super-monsters of course.

[Heru]

Pacifist is good. People like pacifists, especially when they're worried about being invaded by super-monsters. I mean that they prefer them to the super-monsters of course.

Yeah, exactly. I think I will go with the ifrst level of Pacifist. It doesn't make me a useless cahracter in combat but it does make it so that my character cannot technically start it.

[Rorx]

Hi Guys, sorry I didn't catch this sooner:-

Heru, the Intolerance would have to go, you would not be allowed on the visit with such an attitude.

Eden: The two societies are largely separate, the Novas do not rule the baselines, they don't get involved that much. Most of the time the Novas are busy with their own projects in the Citadel or on their private estates/villas (if they have one). When a Nova appears in public it rapidly becomes almost a festival with people coming from at least the local area to see them etc. In the judiciary a Nova might be requested to assisst in a stalled investigation, but otherwise is only called in to validate the sentence in a capital crime and to carry out the execution. The laws that relate to baselines are determined by the baseline government - not the Novas, although they may be consulted or give their opinion there is enough of them that their opinions are likely to counteract one another to a large degree.

The mission: PR and diplomacy, at all levels for the PR and at the National and UN level for the diplomacy. Sorry Heru, you are incorrect, there are very few Psion politicians and heads of government, so you would be dealing almost exclusively with baselines, who might have a psion aide/advisor if you are lucky. The bulk if not all the UN stuff will be taken care of by Apollo and a few others, the role of you mob is to go out and show that Eden NOVAS are not the bloodthirsty and/or controlling monsters that the ABERRANTS are. You can't do that very well if you are busy insulting or manipulating the people you meet. It doesn't matter if they can't understand how they have been insulted, they only need to feel insulted to be inclined to vote to ban all links to Eden at best or declare war on Eden at worst. That is the sort of stakes at play here. Yes the Eden Novas could do a lot of damage to Earth if they wanted to, but they were already inclined to wlak away rather than do that last time, if it came to it. However, Earth forces could certainly wipe the baseline population at the very least if that situation occurred.

The aim of the trip, ideally, is to not only get permission to be able to visit Earth and to provide them with at least some of the data that was lost in the OpNet crach and subsequently, but to be allowed to help in the clearing up and defence of Earth and the colonies. This would include things like helping to clear up the Blight, Europe, Middle East and other 'hot' spots, and assisting in the defence of the system, Khuntze La Ge and the Ark when it arrives.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

[Heru]

No problem with you corrections on my character. Intolerance is being replaced by Pacifist. And okay on the dealing with baselines.

But, as to Eden society itself, really, that is how it operates in your version of the game. I mean, I am not questing it, you are the ST and what you say goes, but that is completely the total opposite of anything that I thought Eden was. From the reading of the books the novas rule and control Eden, and both the baseline and nova societies. Not that they leave it alone.

It won't effect much when the game starts, but it does change my back story and the entire ideology of my character. And I bet other characters as well. Because I will be honest and say that is so not how I viewed Eden society from reading the Stellar Frontiers book.

But like I said, your campaign and your setting, so it doesn't really matter what I think. Thought it will have me rethink a lot of the nuances of the game and the characters in it.

++

As to your information on what the game itself will contain, that actually sounds awesome and a lot of fun. I like the idea of going around and helping people not hate novas.

[Rorx]

I'll happily go back and dig out my copy of SF again when I get time over the next couple of days, but from memory some of what I wrote is explicitly stated, as Sky seemed to agree in one of his earlier posts.

Your Novas ruling Eden suggests to me, although I maybe wrong, that they get involved a lot and tell the baselines what to do a lot, which would tend to go against the freespeech, including criticism of the Novas, that IS explicitly stated as being the case on Eden.

The other point is to look at it from the Nova side, if you're a M-Int scientist or engineer or whatever why would you waste your time meddling in the affairs of the baselines? As long as they are about to be able to produce the lab equipment you occassionally require and otherwise keep their society running without interfering with you, then let them get on with it. After all people always come to resent interference, even if it is correct and well intentioned. Sometimes that is the type that is resented the quickest.

[Heru]

This is from Page 103 of Stellar Frontiers written by White Wolf Publishing:

Government

"Benevolent despotism" best sums up the way way the novas run things. Eden's rulers are sane, generally compassionate beings who are almost god-like in power compared to normal humans or psions. Novas can fly, move vast quantities of earth with a thought, heal the sick and injured, control temperature and generate tremendous bolts of energy at will. This power has given the novas absolute authority over Eden. For the first time, a truly non-egalitarian society has evolved. The novas serve as rulers, judges and protectors of the humans on Eden. If a child is lost in the wilderness or if a shuttle crashes, a noval rushes to the rescue. Similarly, novas help with any large public building project, doing the work of many dozens of humans and machines in a fraction of the time.

In return for these efforts, the novas expect to be treated with respect and deference. The novas also occupy a special place in the economy. They are prohibited by their own code of laws from taking a human's personal property, but they may freely take any goods offered for sale. Given the many benefits that the novas provide, and the fact that the majority of Edenities cannot remember a life without their nova overlords, the colonists readily acknowledge the nova's authority.

The novas try not to micro-manage their world. Personal freedom of expression is unrestricted, but the government effectively controls and directs the economy. The humans have their own civil courts and all criminal cases are first tried by a human jury. Only if there remains any question is the case then referred to a nova judge. The novas set wages, prices and production levels of all essential goods and services. The novas wrote the constitution and set the general social policies, but, as with all other elements of Eden society, humans provided considerable help in the planning and implementation.

(PS. I will remove it if the moderators of this site feel that this multi-paragraph long post is not allowed. I do not want to cause trouble for anybody. But I am not claiming that this is my work, I am quoting from White Wolf.)

Take your time, I am just saying that I do not think that there is total independence and separation as your post made it seem. This is just my interpretation of course.

I do want to say that it seems that, and I could be mistaken, the others disagreed slightly with Sky on his point about the independence of baselines. Novas rule over Eden.

Novas make all the laws, legislative, criminal, judicial and economic. They also wrote the constitution. They also do all that they can do make baseline society a little better.

Making the laws and acting as secret mind police are two different things in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if there were nova police investigators, but they are probably only called in for major crimes like rape and murder, not petty shoplifting and whatnot.

Novas also don't regularly use mind control powers to change the minds, nor do they prohibit free speech, that is where their freedoms come in. Not in the sense of the baselines having the say in the first place of what the laws are.

Remember, Mega-Int 5 or higher novas probably wrote the constitution, a document so much more complete than anything baselines probably could come up with.

Novas do interfere, they interfere politically and economically - not so much socially in the sense of acting as thought police.

But I just want to mention that this is how I see it, and I could be interpretating it the way I want. But I gotta say that Novas running and controlling the society is one of the things that called me to both Eden and the concept of this game.

But as with everything, its your game and your decrees are final.

[Heritage]

Whew, I have a lot of reading to catch up on in these threads!

Just to put it down on paper, er, pixels, here's the basic concept of my character's background; rereading the Trinity corebook reminded me that Absolute Zero had even been colonized until after the Abbies all left, so I changed a few things.

- - - - -

Leah Wagner was born in 2024 to a distinguished American naval family; after high school, she entered the US Naval Academy where she got top marks before heading to the Navy Postgraduate School to study for a career in Naval Intelligence. Not long after graduation, she was posted as a junior intelligence officer aboard the SSN New Hampshire, an aging stealth sub operating in the Atlantic. A few years later the sub was attacked by one or more Aberrants; while most of the crew perished in the attack, Leah and a handful of others survived and were picked up by a Coast Guard cutter.

Upon returning to dry land, she gave up her commission and immediately applied for a job with the Directive, and she pursued her duties vigilantly. During the third year of the War she erupted unexpectedly, but as she she seemed sane and healthy she was allowed to stay on; however, she quickly sensed that she was not entirely welcome. She still felt strongly that humanity needed protection from dangerous Aberrants, but she realized she would have to fight them on her own; luckily she met several other low-taint novas with similar beliefs, and the group did what it could within the slippery gray area of nova vs Aberrant warfare. Using both her powers and skill at dormancy, she traveled across the US, forming a network of Nova and baseline contacts to help her monitor and fight the most dangerous creatures humanity had ever faced.

In time, the group formed connections and alliance with similar groups, and for a while she lived on Luna with the Space Brigade, where she again moved between the baseline and Nova worlds, forming friendships and connections that extended her intelligence network that monitored dangerous Aberrants. Leah still held out hope that somehow the two races of man could live together, but as the war raged on it became clear that the only sane choice was to leave human space peaceful, and forge a new path among the stars. Some of her contacts agreed to stay behind and continue her work while others would join Leah and the rest of the Novas on the road to Eden.

On Eden, Leah helped organize the baseline police force and an internal covert security force, to protect the baselines from both possible Aberrant incursions and themselves; in time she rose to title of Security Secretary, a position she frequently used to meddle with the lives of the baseline population as she did her best to 'help' them as she saw fit. But all this scrutinizing and maneuvering was really just a way for her to keep her mind off the fate of Earth, its colonies and the friends she left behind.

The arrival of the psions led to a confusing rush of conflicting emotions: fear of the new strain of human development and what it might mean for all of humanity, joy to know that Earth had indeed endured, and curiosity about what had happened back in the Solar System since her departure, especially contact with aliens. It didn't take too much convincing for her to join the diplomatic mission, but she is secretly hoping she can 'slip off' on her own to see what changes time has brought, and look up her old network to see how they have fared without her guiding hand.

Edit: Looks like novas meddling with baselines has been a bit of an issue here in this thread, but I'm flexible about any necessary changes to my background.

[Heru]

Nice back story Heritage, its quite cool.

++

Updated Flaws info:

Pacifist - Imperos is a nova of impeccable tastes and interests, and the bloody nature of dealing death is not something that holds any interest for him. To this end, while he will fight to protect what he holds dear, only in the most extreme of cases will he ever actually start it. This pacifism goes hand in hand with his belief in honor and the need to be respectful, even to his inferiors.

Trademark - Because of the years Imperos spent overseeing his small American town, and then living on Eden where novas dominate, he never developed an interest in hiding who he is. Because of that anytime that Imperos does get into the occasional violent confrontation he leaves behind a single calling card. This calling card is a small stone medallion which has a mountain, pyramid and small town etched onto it. The icon represents Imperos personal crest and emblem. It causes some problems but rarely does he need to hide the fact that it is he who does such things.

++

I just realized something. The Trinity era time period has lost a lot of technology that existed during the nova era. But Eden did not, according to Stellar Frontiers they are the only place in existence with a completely, 100% uncorrupted or uncompromised databank.

So my question is, compared to Earth what level of technology does Eden have access to.

My answer, if I was to give it, would be that Eden is more advanced than pretty much anything Earth can do. This would be because of never needing to regain knoweldge, existence of Mega-mental novas, and access to advanced resources.

[Alistaire]

I just realized something. The Trinity era time period has lost a lot of technology that existed during the nova era. But Eden did not, according to Stellar Frontiers they are the only place in existence with a completely, 100% uncorrupted or uncompromised databank.

So my question is, compared to Earth what level of technology does Eden have access to.

My answer, if I was to give it, would be that Eden is more advanced than pretty much anything Earth can do. This would be because of never needing to regain knoweldge, existence of Mega-mental novas, and access to advanced resources.

I don't think so. First of all we know that Earth has biotech and noetic science that Eden does not. Of course, this was all "given", but we're talking about having here, not how they got it.

Second, I recall it being specifically stated in Aberrant somewhere that Novas don't totally invent things out of thin air. Basically, they can do the mental "work" of several humans, thus speeding things up. But then you have to look at the fact that the Earth has far more population than Eden does. So even if the novas were able to double the rate of scientific advance on Eden (an optimisitic number I think), they would still be beat out by Earth's sheer numbers. Eden has a population of 100,000. Earth has what, 6 billion (very conservatively)? That makes it 60,000 times more population. And not just that, but with bigger populations come the ability to do bigger projects and thus faster discoveries. Look at 20th century Earth. It took a country the size of the USA or USSR in order to have the population base to support a space program (in the 1960s anyway), and with that program came many more advances as overruns. I don't imagine that Eden has any orbital cities, or ship yards. I don't think they know much about planetary colonization, or space travel, except what they took from Earth. Not to mention the Novas "cheating" them out of the need to do so. E.g. we want a piece of moon-rock to analyze. A nova just teleports up and gets it. Sure, we get the rock sooner, but nothing in the way of a space program that non-nova planets would require to get it. And of course this is not even getting into all the stuff developed initially for wars all over the Earth that I'm sure would not happen on Eden (small population plus the Novas wouldn't stand for it).

All in all I think that sure they probably have some nifty, shiny gadgets for personal convenience that Earth does not, but overall, Earth would have the better technology in most areas.

[Heru]

Actually, the thing about biotech, that is not true. Eden (according to Stellar Frontier) created gigantic continent-wide biological noetic biospheres that unite animal and plant in a single safe environment.

It is one of the things that the book lists to make the Psions want to contact Earth - Eden biotechnology and science.

Mentioned in the Aberrant Player's Guide is the rules for nova superscience and gadget creation (which I actually used to create my own variant rules, but that is neither here nor there). Their is a sidebar that states to forget what the core book says about slowing the pace of technology. That rather, by the time of the Trinity Era almost everybody forgot about nova-era technology that was either deliberately destroyed, hidden or made nonexistent by the Aeon Trinity people.

And also, Eden took with them all the knoweldge and databank of Earth pre-Crast and crisis. They have it all sor they did not need to start from the scratch, they could begin at an advanced state of technology.

Earth itself went through a little dark age, a collapse of general technology level, and a lack of a planetary wide internet, like existed in the nova age. They do have psions, and that is pretty cool, but they lacked a lot of what occurred in the past.

Novas change the status quo so much that the things we take for granted as required is no longer required. Other things become essential and important.

Plus, if a Mega-Intelligence nova works with other mega-intelligent novas as well as working with novas who have useful powers in a state-supported institution that is not being restricted by Project Utopia and the like, technology growth (for the nova elite anyway) would be quite rapid.

Of course, this is not to say that the novas of Eden won't decide that for their purposes continued baseline update in technology would lead to a society that is not stable. They might decide that, no, this si the technology level that we want for our baseline citizens, and only change it through incremental growths.

At the same time this would not effect the ability or the existence of special nova projects that are only for nova use or for use by novas to aid baselines. These things won't become sold as corporate concepts.

But, of course, the above is really all my opinion based on what I read of Aberrant, the Players Guide and Stellar Frontiers.

[knave]

Heru, please could you give the reference that Novas created the bios on Eden. ::blink

I think the problem with super science generally is that it doesn't work very well for non-novas unless the inventor intended it to - i.e. put a good deal of xp into it. Just like biotech isn't great with non-psions - although there is movement in that direction.

btw - read the section on computers in the Trinity core book and see how dated it sounds already. ::tongue specifically the bit about how much storage mini-comps have.

Actually, the thing about biotech, that is not true. Eden (according to Stellar Frontier) created gigantic continent-wide biological noetic biospheres that unite animal and plant in a single safe environment.

It is one of the things that the book lists to make the Psions want to contact Earth - Eden biotechnology and science.

Mentioned in the Aberrant Player's Guide is the rules for nova superscience and gadget creation (which I actually used to create my own variant rules, but that is neither here nor there). Their is a sidebar that states to forget what the core book says about slowing the pace of technology. That rather, by the time of the Trinity Era almost everybody forgot about nova-era technology that was either deliberately destroyed, hidden or made nonexistent by the Aeon Trinity people.

And also, Eden took with them all the knoweldge and databank of Earth pre-Crast and crisis. They have it all sor they did not need to start from the scratch, they could begin at an advanced state of technology.

Earth itself went through a little dark age, a collapse of general technology level, and a lack of a planetary wide internet, like existed in the nova age. They do have psions, and that is pretty cool, but they lacked a lot of what occurred in the past.

Novas change the status quo so much that the things we take for granted as required is no longer required. Other things become essential and important.

Plus, if a Mega-Intelligence nova works with other mega-intelligent novas as well as working with novas who have useful powers in a state-supported institution that is not being restricted by Project Utopia and the like, technology growth (for the nova elite anyway) would be quite rapid.

Of course, this is not to say that the novas of Eden won't decide that for their purposes continued baseline update in technology would lead to a society that is not stable. They might decide that, no, this si the technology level that we want for our baseline citizens, and only change it through incremental growths.

At the same time this would not effect the ability or the existence of special nova projects that are only for nova use or for use by novas to aid baselines. These things won't become sold as corporate concepts.

But, of course, the above is really all my opinion based on what I read of Aberrant, the Players Guide and Stellar Frontiers.

[Heru]

I think its page 43 in the heading titled Eden Ecosystem. That entire section in Stellar Frontiers provides us with a wealth of information on their government, society and culture, but a lot fo it is hidden within the text rather than directly stated.

And yeah, its kinda funny when you read or watch a supposedly futuristic setting and they have technology that we developed in the present.

[SkyLion]

The Myriasoma are *not* biotech inventions. They were there well before the world was discovered by humans. Also, they are hardly safe...

Also, thank you for nixing the intolerance. I still feel like you should change the obsession to something more like an actual flaw. I agree with Alistaire that being obsessed about being honorable and polite in a diplomatic game doesn't seem much of a hindrance.

[Alex Green]

All in all I think that sure they probably have some nifty, shiny gadgets for personal convenience that Earth does not, but overall, Earth would have the better technology in most areas.

Eden's starting point for science is Earth's 2040 (2050?) or so, when Science was king and extremely advanced.

Earth *just* came out of the dark ages, i.e. a savagely anti-scientific time when anything that smacked of nova science was destroyed.

Yes, Earth has a higher population base, and more resources, and could in theory have a more advanced scientific achievement rate... but that's *if* they had their act together (only parts of the world could do this) and *if* they hadn't spent years book burning, and even then, one Nova Scientist could advance his chosen field at a rate beyond that of Einstein.

Eden has a higher tech level than Earth... but IMHO they lack the resources to fully use it. They've had to worry about survival on an unsettled world which didn't start with something as simple as an iron mine.

[Rorx]

Sorry Heru, but Sky is correct they are the native life of Eden. There are two separate types of biotech in Trinity, the noetic type based off Doyen prototypes and presumably DNA, and the normal terran biotech which is an extension of RL biotech, whose main keaders/manufacturers are Nihon and the illegal labs of Shan.

As a general case I would assume that Edens technology base is similar to Nihon, with plenty of gadgets available to the those Nova so inclined. If it was significantly more advanced than the Trinity base I'm pretty sure they'would have mentioned it, especially with the oncoming threat of the high tech Ark.

[Heru]

Okay, just note that I disagree and that I think that by making it native rather than created you are missing a great opportunity. The same thing with nova technology, which in the book is listed as more advanced. I think that having them more advanced makes sense, is applicable and follows the point of Eden.

But your the ST, so its your call, and I will abide by it even when I disagree with you. So yeah, .

++

SkyLion,

The only reason I got rid of intolerance was because the ST told me to. I still think its fine and would have kept it if it wasn't for that.

I also plan on keeping Obsession, I figure that it works very well. I would take something like Honor but they consider it a merit and not a flaw, so that is useless to me.

[SkyLion]

Okay, just note that I disagree and that I think that by making it native rather than created you are missing a great opportunity.

This tone isn't inspiring my confidence. That was basically a passive agressive way to say, well I think my idea is better but Im okay with it, but Im going to mention it so you know how I feel...

The only reason I got rid of intolerance was because the ST told me to. I still think its fine and would have kept it if it wasn't for that.

...confidence further eroding.

I also plan on keeping Obsession, I figure that it works very well. I would take something like Honor but they consider it a merit and not a flaw, so that is useless to me.

(italics mine btw)....annnd confidence pretty much gone at this point. Flaws are *not* supposed to be useful to you. They are hinderances. They are hooks for the ST to sink into you. Yeah they can be fun roleplaying but the very section of the book warns storytellers about players who would milk it for points and as easy money.

For honorable (obessesion: honor) to truly be a flaw the Storyteller would have to contrive situations where he is challenging that honor on a regular basis (obsessions are things that are always in your face, almost all the time) and making it extremely difficult for you to remain honorable. For example, an obsession to be honorable would be a flaw in a game hwere all the other players were backstabbing criminals.

Sorry dude, I don't buy it. I am just going to be direct and say that I'm not sure if this character or your approach is best for this game. It's ultimately up to Rorx, but I need to be honest about the discomfort it's causing me. It could be that you need to read the premise and design a character that fuly cooperates with those ideals (I myself had to scrap my first idea and Alex had to revamp his aproach as well, so we know how it goes). As is, I'm not jazzed about Imperos being on the team.

[Alex Green]

...Alex had to revamp his aproach as well, so we know how it goes)...

My first 5 or so concepts (all of which were given rough drafts) were axed by me for various reasons. Ares' background and personality got shot down once in totality, then part of his build got ruled illegal and had to be redone.

No big. It happens pretty much every time, i.e. this was a pretty average build experience.

[Rorx]

Okay, just note that I disagree and that I think that by making it native rather than created you are missing a great opportunity. The same thing with nova technology, which in the book is listed as more advanced. I think that having them more advanced makes sense, is applicable and follows the point of Eden.

It's not me that's making it native it is clearly stated as such in a number of places in SF, and I see no missed opportunity, Eden still holds the complete Human Genome data which would be a great boon for terran biotech (although of little use to Noetic biotech whih is based off Doyen protoypes), and Eden (if it has bothered) would be more advanced at 'terran' biotech than Earth.

Yes Nova technology is more advanced, but unless they have a particular goal in mind they would only drag up the tech level of the whole society in those areas where there is a need and/or desire to do so, otherwise they would remain as gadgets for the Novas themselves. The mere fact that they have Novas on hand who 'help with large building projects', rescue people etc would reduce people reliance on technology in some areas and so effectively slow development in those areas of technology. In addition please note that I was granting Eden technology parity (at least) with Nihon, whose technology level is the most advanced on the planet because it is the result of M-Int Nova and INT 6 Superiors.

The point of Eden was somewhere for a group of Novas who were not hell bent on dominating humanity nor destroying it to remove themselves from the fighting with a group of humans (initially at least made up of their friends and family) who can accept them for what they are. I see nothing in that to say that they must have extended technology as far and as rapidly as they could.

I have to return to a previous point, if they had significantly better technology than Earth thenit would have been mentioned at least in passing and probably examples given. At least I know I would if I were to write it.

But your the ST, so its your call, and I will abide by it even when I disagree with you. So yeah, .

Oh, thank you! ::biggrin

SkyLion,

The only reason I got rid of intolerance was because the ST told me to. I still think its fine and would have kept it if it wasn't for that.

I also plan on keeping Obsession, I figure that it works very well. I would take something like Honor but they consider it a merit and not a flaw, so that is useless to me.

As so many other people have mentioned, I see no reason that having to be polite and preferably not lying to people (2 points I would consider to be part of being Honourable) and hence getting a generally favourable response from people is a Flaw?

It appears that you were just min/maxing to get pointsrather than thinking things through clearly, perhaps, like me, you end up making most of your posts at silly times of the morning? ::biggrin

[Heru]

Honestly, as I have said this before, I come up with fluff, of character, of story, and then I come up with the mechanics. Since, as I see it, its the fluff that will be what I use when I play, I think its more important than the mechanics.

So yes, if that is min-maxing than I min-maxed. Not randomly, not without purpose, I did it so that the mechanics fit the fluff - which is the most important part of a character.

Beyond that, I honestly do not know what to say.

Oh, yes I do, I post in the morning and I post a lot, because that is how I am. Its got nothing to do with me not thinking things through, in fact I am more awake in the evening/early morning than I am during the day.

[Alistaire]

Diverting a bit off topic here, but...

Eden still holds the complete Human Genome data which would be a great boon for terran biotech (although of little use to Noetic biotech whih is based off Doyen protoypes)

IIRC no one (but the proxies of course) really know that the biotech is based from "alien" DNA, just that it's different. Wouldn't the introduction of the human genome data make it possible that people on Earth could figure this out? Or would they still need the equipment & time to scan the whole DNA of some peice of biotech first before they could compare them? And if they could find out, wouldn't this be an issue for the novas in regards to offering that data? I'm just speculating here. Perhaps it will all come up in game for some juicy diplomatic problems. ::biggrin

And Rorx, I agree completely with what you said concerning Eden tech, FWIW.

Honestly, as I have said this before, I come up with fluff, of character, of story, and then I come up with the mechanics. Since, as I see it, its the fluff that will be what I use when I play, I think its more important than the mechanics.

So yes, if that is min-maxing than I min-maxed. Not randomly, not without purpose, I did it so that the mechanics fit the fluff - which is the most important part of a character.

Then I am curious: If the fluff is more important than the machanics, and you can take it (especially in Aberrant) without points being involved, then why did you say that the honour obsession would be "useless" to you if you could not get points for it? "I would take something like Honor but they consider it a merit and not a flaw, so that is useless to me." If all you were concerned with was making the mechanics fit the concept, then it certainly would not be useless to you. This appears contradictory. Is this, as Rorx said, not well thought through, or are you simply not explaining it right?

[Heru]

I'm responding to the second point Alistaire brings up,

And the answer is that I am not explaining things right.

The fluff came first for me, and then I find a way to make it fit the mechanics - to do that sometimes I have to play with the points. So when I find a flaw that fits my concept I take it, twisting it to fit what I need.

I needed a flaw, and I say that because I needed the points that come with the flaw. I could not take honor because it cost me stuff, even though it made sense. My character is going to be honorable, he just couldn't purchase the honor merit.

I also have to say that the Obsession flaw worked very well with the Intolerance flaw - one helped to shape the other. Once I got rid of the one, the other became a little redundant in a way.

I hope that makes more sense.

++

Because I am somewhat sick and tired of all the problems that have been cropping up recently about my character, I am rethinking the mechanics. One of the things is I am looking at the flaws that I plan on taking. And I was thinking of reducing it to this:

*Trademark - he leaves his calling card wherever he goes.

*Lusty - my character is a rich pretty boy, of course he is lusty.

*Pacifist - as a person of long standing wealth, he hasn't really experienced much violence. And when he does he doesn't really like it.

*Debt - I like the ST potential of this, I choose the second level of it.

*Enemy - enemy wants to seriously humiliate me, he is weaker than me, it provides 2 points.

That is a total of 7.

Now, I ask, is there a problem with this. And if there isn't than I want the previous conversation done with - it is meaningless as I am throwing that mechanics out of the way.

,,

Also, so as I do not step on any body's toes. My powers are:

*Mega-Intelligence

*Mega-Perception

*Mega-Wits

*Mega-Dexterity

*Mega-Manipulation

*Elemental Mastery

*Spatial Manipulation, though I am somewhat rethinking this. It might not be a total necessity.

(some of the above megas might not remain)

I currently am working with Quantum 5, but I think I might bring it up to 6. Using other points I might then purchase extra ranks of Elemental Mastery and then get Mastery for it, providing me with increased control on that.

My ability for Elemental Mastery is earth.

Also, if I remove spatial manipulation than I will modify the backstory to say that the character saved the miners buy using his ability to shape the mine back into a safe shape. this is rather than teleporting.

+++

Quick question, how much does it cost to add Mastery to Elemental Mastery, and do you guys thing it is worth it. And if not, do you have any worthwhile ideas for other extras that might be useful to me.

++

Another question, Elemental Mastery is both about movement and creation. So I think I should be able to gain a lower level technique that is similar to Matter Creation. My version would only create earth and would have other reductions in power.

Can I do that (asking ST) and how would I go about doing that.

[SkyLion]

Re: Elemental mastery + Mastery. This is *very*powerful. Mastery raises your level 3 power to level 4, so it is going to cost 7 NPs per dot or 4 NPs per tainted dot.

As Elemental Mastery allows you to create matter from thin air, it is presumed (though up to the ST to comment on) that the element is then permanent. So if you create a large sphere of Earth to attack someone it will remain afterwards. The IC fluff for the stroy supports this, as at least one canon NPC, Tremor, used her Elemental mastery: Earth Power to create more artificial islands for Venice.

Also, all those flaws seem fine as is. I had this thought though that for his tradmark, what if he gave an autographed photo of himself to everyone he meets. ::laugh

[Heru]

Okay, so lets say I have 3 dots of Elemental Mastery when I buy the Mastery extra. Do I have to pay the extra cost in for the ratings past or just for the ratings future. And doesn't my character technically have 4 dots in Elemental Mastery after the purchase of the Mastery Extra, so that the next time I am buying a 5th dot?

And about your second paragraph, okay, that sounds incredibly useful and epic enough for a century plus nova.

The trademark flaw, yeah, that sounds kinda cool. I mean, its all part and parcel of his belief in his superiority as a natural leader.

The interesting thing is that while he has Mega-Manipulation he does not have Mega-Charisma or Mega-Appearance. hehe Well, unless I change it from manipulation to charisma

++

Okay, I'm trying to figure the point cost for my Elemental Mastery power.

Okay, so normally if I have Elemental Mastery *** it costs me a total of 15 Nova Points.

Okay, so I then decide to purchase the Mastery Extra for my Elemental Mastery power. Because of the Extra my former Level 3 power is now a level 4 power, which means that each dot costs 7 Nova Points. So to get Elemental Mastery *** I must spend a total of 21 Nova Points.

But technically, I am actually Elemental Mastery *** plus Mastery *, for a total of Elemental Mastery ****, right? Or is that 4th dot only relevant in that I actually have four free techniques and not 3.

By the way, does Mastery give me any extra free techniques?

So, all in all, with Elemental Mastery *** and Mastery extra, I am spending 21 nova points. Right?

[Heru]

I was thinking about all the novas in the party having a special language that only the novas could speak. That reminded of another thread once posted in the forums, which is located here:

http://www.eononline.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3023&st

Anyway, while I don't except us to use that, I thought it was a nifty method for the novas to be all secret if they needed to.

[Forge]

Okay, I'm trying to figure the point cost for my Elemental Mastery power.

Okay, so normally if I have Elemental Mastery *** it costs me a total of 15 Nova Points.

Okay, so I then decide to purchase the Mastery Extra for my Elemental Mastery power. Because of the Extra my former Level 3 power is now a level 4 power, which means that each dot costs 7 Nova Points. So to get Elemental Mastery *** I must spend a total of 21 Nova Points.

But technically, I am actually Elemental Mastery *** plus Mastery *, for a total of Elemental Mastery ****, right? Or is that 4th dot only relevant in that I actually have four free techniques and not 3.

By the way, does Mastery give me any extra free techniques?

So, all in all, with Elemental Mastery *** and Mastery extra, I am spending 21 nova points. Right?

Mastery 1 is technically an extra and does raise the EM to level 4, and as the per the rules in the main book, when purchasing an extra, you must pay all the past costs as though it had always been that level. So you are correct in your calculation of 21 NP for Elemental Mastery: Earth *** w/ Mastery 1

Mastery does not give you any free techniques AFAIK, and Mastery (being an extra) does not count as a fourth dot for you for techniques. You would have three free.

[SkyLion]

Forge is incorrect in that last part there. It costs you 21 NPs for 3 dots in an L4 power (untainted). The extra does not count as an additional dot in the power but it does give you an extra trechnique (1 per extra) as per the sidebar on extras in the APG. Also, and I would have thought you would know this heru as an ST, but when you buy an extra for a power you have to buy it for all of the dots you have already.

Lastly, might I recommend something? In addition to the 21 NPs you are paying for mastery, pay an additional 5 NP (3 tainted) for the RQC extra. This gives you an extra free technique and means that you will pay 1 QP per use instead of 2QP. If you have shield, with the duration of hours you will be able to maintain it indefinitley since you will recharge Q over the maintenace period, and using all of those available "unmastered" techniques is only going to cost you 2 QP per use at the + 1 difficulty instead of 4 QP. The other benefit this gives you is that you can use the reduced power option: if you reduce your effect and power/damage by half you can do it for free, indefinitely! Since Mastery double your effects this is like getting a full powered power for free and when you need to pour the juice on for a bigger opponent its still going to be only 1 QP per use. Something to think about.

Oh yeah and IMHO I would ditch the spatial thing in favor of the Elementalism. For one thing it just sort of seems extraneous. Secondly we already have a Mastery level Q6 warper and a whole mob of warping/teleporting Upeo so we don't really have a need for it in the group. I would say that the points you would spend on those things would be better spent on something our group doesn't have yet and/or that would make your concept-powers fit in even better together. The spatial thing doesn't fit in as nicely with the earth elemental theme. If I had to make a suggestion, I would say put those points into Bodymorph: Earth and then use the bodymorph dots to take sizemorph grow...so you can get bigger by absorbing rock, or pulling it from the elemental dimension you are creating the element from. Also remember that the movement power of EM allows you to move through the earth like it was water as per the description.

Hope you can find some of this useful/helpful.

[Forge]

Forge is incorrect in that last part there. ...it does give you an extra trechnique (1 per extra) as per the sidebar on extras in the APG.

My bad, I even read that when I was posting...teach me to post at all hours of the night... ::blush

[Heru]

I just want to say that I knew the rules for general extras, but I had not had games set where the players used Mastery, which was why I was a little shaky on the exact nature of it.

The fact that we have a Nova PC that has warp capabilities makes me feel okay about dropping the Spatial Manipulation part. I don't trust those psions.

And yeah, I am removing Spatial Manipulation. My main power is Elemental Mastery (Earth), 3 dots plus Mastery plus Reduced Quantum Cost (it makes a lot sense).

The issue with taking Bodymorph (Earth) is that as a character with a Pacifist flaw, taking a straight up combat form like that, might not be entirely within character. Plus, he really cares about his sex appeal, and being the Thing kinda takes a way from that. hehe Still, it is something to think about.

Actually, by moving things around (reducing the number of megas I have to just the essential ones) I was able to actually come up with an additional 7 points (by removing some powers bought) to purchase a fourth dot of Elemental Mastery. This means that I actually have 6 techniques which have pretty much near zero costs.

And its all legal, with only 7 points worth of flaws. I also have Quantum 6 and Taint 3. I did have to loose point of node, now I only have 2 (which is 10 per round, which is good enough I think).

With the exception of Mega-Manipulation (which I took because of my nova's role as leader of people), all the megas I have chosen were chosen because they are part of the dice pool of the Elemental Masteries. Of course while I have 5 megas they are all at level 1, which is better than baselines but not epic.

Its kinda cool what I have done with the character. The Elemental Mastery (Earth) power provides the character with a lot of abilities that I would not have been able to afford otherwise. And it is kinda of a cool and unique ability.

I also kinda of figure that as his talent is earth and stone he helped to build Eden's stone constructions. That and he will help to provide rebuilding on various areas of the Earth.

The effect of both extras provides me with a huge assortment of special qualities that make my character a lot more entertaining to play. The near free cost, the huge assortment of options.

So yeah, it is all working.

And, where exactly is the reduced power option. I want to give it a read over and I forget exactly where it is located?

+++

Some technique questions. You know how you cannot use a technique unless it fits your character's elemental concept. Well, as mine is earth, I was trying to figure out how the powers work.

*Enhance/Diminish, Int: I cannot figure if this would be usable.

*Attraction, Strength (PG): This is no so much a question of usability, but if I am reading it write. Can I make to pieces of earth come together and become one. Or do they just mean two boulders will move until they touch.

*Excitation, Int (PG): Can this work for earth. I mean I could see through heating I could have my character destroy earth.

*Phase Change, Wits (PG): I don't think that this could work, but I am asking anyway.

*Plasma Conversion: This is very much a Divis Mal power, but not an element earth power in my book. Any ideas.

Also, I was thinking of using a technique like Sphere in a non-combat way. In other words, I create a large ball which I can then shape using the Shape power. But really, what would I use if I wanted to create an island mass (for example) or form stone out of nowhere. Could I do it, our would it be a non-write up technique that is sort of hand waved away by the ST as he sees fit?

[Alex Green]

RE: Phase Change

It works. Earth becomes mud.

RE: Plasma Conversion

Built for a different element.

RE: Creation of Spheres

What you need for this sort of thing is "Shaping".

[Heritage]

Hmm, I seem to be having trouble locationg some of my Aberrant books, namely the corebook and APG, as well as Stellar Frontiers; they might have been moved into storage in the garage in error ::rolleyes

So I might need a little help until I can dig them out. Would someone be able to summarize the char gen rules and point costs? I realize this is a collossal pain in the keister, but I do want to get my character submission in asap. The build will be very simple, as mine ususally are: a bunch of skills, some high regular Attributes, some good Mega-Stats and many dots of Shapeshift with Mastery, as well as five dots of Dormancy. I see her as being lowish taint, but I think she might need at least 5 points of Quantum, so she will definilty have some, but not so much that Dormancy can't hide it.