Aberrant RPG - Aberrant / Scion Crossover

[SkyLion]

*Small*? *Again*?

After it goes up it's *never* coming down because you can define the rules so you never run out of juice. Similarly, it's trivial to get Mega-Manip 10 which means you're looking at 10+ succ.

Succ can be spent to 2x the area of effect, so your 10+ succ can easily turn an area of effect of 11 meters into 11+ kilometers. Center the effect on yourself and then just teleport a few kilometers away from any pesky gods, and define the rules so that they lose.

Again you arent seeming to give the Gods enough credit Alex. You cant just use Planck Scaling to say "I win" in the Scion setting. In the Abby U sure, but that isn't the discussion at hand. You cant redefine the rules in a universe where they make the rules using a power that isnt applicable in their universe.Even if somehow you could use that power to effect changes to the gods, the ramifications to that universe for doing so are so interwoven with the place that fate smakcs you down. And yes, Fate is bigger than Planck Scaling. Much Bigger.

[Rorx]

I agree with Sky.

For me it's a matter of the difference between the Paradigm of a universe and the rules of the universe. The Paradigm for Scion is that the gods and magic exist and affect things, for Trinity Universe it is that science is king and that quantum and sub-quantum powers exist and work.

That's not to say that a Nova in Scion couldn't fly or using the Q6+ powers redefine the gravitational constant for a while, but that the Nova powers are alien to the Universe and work on the sufferance of the dominant powers of the Scion Universe (Fate and the highest gods/titans).

[Alex Green]

Even if somehow you could use that power to effect changes to the gods, the ramifications to that universe for doing so are so interwoven with the place that fate smakcs you down. And yes, Fate is bigger than Planck Scaling. Much Bigger.

Maybe. Maybe not. This is the sort issue that needs to be worked out before hand in a cross over.

Personally I'm a fan of letting everyone suffer under their own limitations (i.e. the Scion types need to worry about Fate showing up and smacking them), but not imposing them on the other character types (i.e. Abbies never worry about Paradox, Mages do and always will).

PS isn't the sort of power that functions well in a cross over I suspect.

[metaphysician]

Point of order: Fate doesn't just effect Scions, it actually effects pretty much everybody in the Scion setting, from the lowliest mortal to the highest Greater Titan. While novas wouldn't induce Fatebinding ( as their powers don't derive from Fate ), they would still be subject to Fatebinding, and other, less well defined ( or more extreme ) acts of Fate.

As for Plank Scaling, my guess is it would still work, but there would be potential for unpredictable side effects. In particular, actually using it inside a Greater Titan would probably be the best way to ensure that the total attention for a functionally omnipotent being is now focused on you. Or, congratulations, your safe inside your reality warp; is you ever leave it or lower it, you die.

[SkyLion]

Maybe. Maybe not. This is the sort issue that needs to be worked out before hand in a cross over.

Personally I'm a fan of letting everyone suffer under their own limitations (i.e. the Scion types need to worry about Fate showing up and smacking them), but not imposing them on the other character types (i.e. Abbies never worry about Paradox, Mages do and always will).

PS isn't the sort of power that functions well in a cross over I suspect.

For me its more a question of Cosmology.

My one thought is that if Novas showed up in the WoD for example, they (like werewolves and Vampires) wouldn't suffer paradox. Indeed, when the Technocracy gets ahold of them (and they will), they will of course come up with the classic quantum mechanics based technocratic explanation to help appease the sleeping masses (As did Aeon in our beloved canon).

The amazing thing about this will be that suddenly Magick will become coincidental, for both Technocrats AND the Traditions. At first this will be accomplished by pretending they are Novas, and then as people displaying supernatural powers becomes more common and the public more jaded with such things (a la canon post 2008 as the golden age starts to fade), "people with powers" will just be common place.

The reason this works is because of the nature of what the consensus is and what the technocracy represents. You see, even in the WoD, Science is still just a minority belief (after all most sleeps are scientists, people are superstitious, many other religions etc.) but it is the dominant minority. In other words, the Technocracy is in the postion to dictate the dominant paradigm through Sleepers. It is debateable whether it is strictly the Sleepers or if we are born into the mental slavery of technology (in other words a child raised by Tradition Mages wont have the handicaps of a Sleeper born but is still subject to the larger consensus while working Magick).

So a Mage creates a Magick effect and its considered to be coincidental if there is a way to "explain it" to the Sleepers who may be observing. For example a lightning bolt might seem to be an electrical cable (by pure coincidence of course!) falling and hitting someone. Or a MIB might pull out some high tech looking gun (powered by magick but to the sleeper its a magnetically accelerated plasma railgun). Similarly you can create an object (like conjuring money say or a pistol) from thin air using the Sphere of Matter...so long as it appears that you pulled it out of a pocket or a purse. Hey, the Sleepers didnt know your pocket was empty and what they dont know cant invoke paradox. You could also use Correspondence to teleport the bullets out of your enemies gun. (Whoops, too bad you grabbed an empty clip.)

So if the general public sees Novas, and then hears all about the M-R Node and quantum theory and the Zurich Accord and all that, (Technocracy would have to, in order to maintain their influence on how Novas could harm their paradigm), Mages can now use their effects. Joe Sleeper doesnt know whether the Mage has a Node or not.

And the really cool thing about all of that is that Mages will become way more powerful than NOvas, equal to Q6 through 10 depending on Arete and how much Sphere knowledge they have. For Mage powers, once removed from the restraint of Paradox are pretty much aspected Planck Scaling. Altering Reality to fit your whims...

[metaphysician]

*cough* Or not, because even back in the Mythic Age, random joe schmoe mage was not that powerful. Lack of Paradox doesn't automatically make you an Oracle, and even Oracles would find what Q8 novas do terrifying.

Mages would become more powerful, but only in the sense that Paradox would become weaker. Not nonexistent, though, even in the Mythic Age, archmagery induced Paradox.

That said, the mages would be the only supernatural faction to really benefit from novas arriving. Everyone else would have deal with these new demigods striding the world, who don't especially care about or need secrecy. The mages would too, they just are the only ones who get a consolation prize.

( and as always, it sucks to be the fuzzies )

[BlueNinja]

We arent talking scoence vs. magic. We are talking about science being utterly wrong in a universe where all the gods and creation myths are real. Science and evolution never happened and reality isnt based on sun quantum universe, iot is based on infinite mystical forces. In the Scion Universe, Aberrants lose.

Sorry, but no, the Scion universe itself conntradicts you. Science isn't wrong - if it was, there would be no twentieth-century. And the gods have clearly evolved to keep up with humanity and their changing focus away from mysticism and towards empirical science. The key difference is that in the Scion universe, Fate is also a dominant force. It's not Fate replacing science, but Fate + Science. That makes Planck Scaling work, and even with what Paul said about increasing the area - it still covers a ridiculously small part of the Earth's surface. (No word about whether you could use it in Asgard/Mount Olympus; I suspect that's a big fat no, but I haven't read that much of the Scion books.)

Without reading more of the Scion books, I can't say for sure if Fate is supposed to be more powerful than science; it could be that yeah, trying to Planck Scale a god out of existance would lead to a big ol' Fate smackdown. (Which is why I prefer stealing their powers, and leaving them as a plain mortal with fake memories of a mental institution, where they'd scream "I am Zeus!" and claw at the padded walls. ::devil )

[SkyLion]

Except this isn't the Mythic age anymore. People are more informed. A coincidental effect is just that, so when sleepers accept Novas, Mages will be able to easily impersonate them.

As for BN's comment, again, think like in Lovecrafts Universe. Humanity operates on a certain understanding of Science. However things like the Migo understand the laws of the Universe on a much greater level. Take for example the Endless ONe, Nyarlathotep. He is something akin to a Greater Titan, a realm unto himself, only that realm happenes to exist everywhere as one of the fundamental if not THE fundamental makeup of dimensional and inter dimensional space. In that sense, mythos trumps science's understanding in the Scion world. Scientist *think* they understand, but the truth would surely drive them mad, for it is far greater than that which they have dreamnt of in their phiosophy. INdeed even their dreams are but the slumbering realm of the Titan Morpheus.

[metaphysician]

Correction: thats how it was, essentially, *before* the Titans were imprisoned. After they were imprisoned, the world was formed into a more stable state.

Science does exist, its the default state of world when not adjusted by Fate, Legend, or a Titan. The fact that Science once didn't exist, and could be rendered inapplicable once again if the Titans are left free and the Gods destroyed, doesn't change the fact that it exists.

( in fact, one of the big ironies is that, generally speaking, the Gods *do*, in fact, try their best to enforce a stable reality )

[Alex Green]

The amazing thing about this will be that suddenly Magick will become coincidental, for both Technocrats AND the Traditions. At first this will be accomplished by pretending they are Novas, and then as people displaying supernatural powers becomes more common and the public more jaded with such things (a la canon post 2008 as the golden age starts to fade), "people with powers" will just be common place.

This assumes baselines *ever* get jaded to even untainted nova powers. I'm guessing the answer is "no".

Novas can do *anything*. For baselines to be used to them they're going to have to be used to *anything* and *everything*, at a moments notice. That's a stretch, especially when the baseline reaction (if they are used to nova power) is to consider them surreal and disturbing.

Further it's a real stretch to call novas "science based", when another word that fits them really well is "gods".

Also in a pure crossover everyone keeps their strengths and their weaknesses.

[Alex Green]

Thinking a bit about the math...

300 Million People in the US.

Call it... 600 novas. So it's at least possible for most of the general public to *know* *specifically* most every nova who lives in the US.

If 3% have the power to Heal, that's 18, maybe half of which do this professionally. So every Doctor/Nurse/etc in the US probably knows the name of everyone who can do this.

This explains the receptionists attitude towards Paul in BN's game. I.e. "Prove what you say before my disbelieving eyes and I'll take you to my boss."

They have that attitude because it's pretty easy for them to know the name of every practicing healer in the USA and Paul wasn't on the list. To be fair they've probably never actually met a Healer but they probably have a dozen people claim they are in the typical year. Yes, it's possible Paul wasn't from around here or that he's a new nova or whatever, but that's not the way to bet.

[Rorx]

Science does exist, its the default state of world when not adjusted by Fate, Legend, or a Titan.

Which is exactly why Quantum powers would work but be unable to best the top gods/titans/fate.

[metaphysician]

Further it's a real stretch to call novas "science based", when another word that fits them really well is "gods".

Which is, IMO, pretty much what the Scion setting supernatural types would settle on novas being. Sure, Inspired aren't exactly the same thing as Scions, but they are close enough that the differences would be put down to "different universe" or such.

[Rorx]

Which is, IMO, pretty much what the Scion setting supernatural types would settle on novas being. Sure, Inspired aren't exactly the same thing as Scions, but they are close enough that the differences would be put down to "different universe" or such.

Do you mean "different universe" or would they think it was a "different pantheon", which is a bit different.

[BlueNinja]

Do you mean "different universe" or would they think it was a "different pantheon", which is a bit different.

We have two gods - the divine Divis Mal, from whom all power and goodness flows, and the evil Maxwewll Mercer, dedicated only to our genocide. ::laugh

[Rorx]

We have two gods - the divine Divis Mal, from whom all power and goodness flows, and the evil Maxwewll Mercer, dedicated only to our genocide. ::laugh

Isn't that unfair to Max, who very few Novas will have had heard of anyway. I would have thought that position in the Nova Pantheon would have gone to Thetis.

[SkyLion]

This assumes baselines *ever* get jaded to even untainted nova powers. I'm guessing the answer is "no".

Novas can do *anything*. For baselines to be used to them they're going to have to be used to *anything* and *everything*, at a moments notice. That's a stretch, especially when the baseline reaction (if they are used to nova power) is to consider them surreal and disturbing.

Further it's a real stretch to call novas "science based", when another word that fits them really well is "gods".

Also in a pure crossover everyone keeps their strengths and their weaknesses.

First of all we need to stop talking about science existing or not existing. Science is simply a method for verifying information about reality. It does happen to be based on certain key assumptions however about cause and effect. It is those underpinnings that get overthrwon when you bring in the truly supernatural. All of a sudden natural phenomena cant just be explained away with fluid dynamics. All of sudden the town crackpot who tells everyone the gods cursed them with a drought is probably correct.

Re: the public being jaded. It is said many times in Aberrant that this is *exactly* what happened in the Aberrant Universe. Keep in mind that the public doesnt have to believe what they see so much as believe the expert telling them how it is. IE most people still think laser guns are sci-fi but a technocrat can get away with one as coincidental. It doesnt matter if Nova powers are surreal and disturbing if the govenment tells people they are protected under the zurich accord and power comes from the Node.

If Aberrants were to go into the WoD, the Technocracy would investigate. Maybe the discovering doctors wouldnt be Mazarin and Rashoud but they would come to the same conclusions. Given that the Technocracy wants to maintain their power they are going to act in the modern world very much the same way as Aeon's conspiracy in Aberrant. With scientific explanation and acceptance Maes can use their power with impunity.

[Alex Green]

Re: the public being jaded. It is said many times in Aberrant that this is *exactly* what happened in the Aberrant Universe. Keep in mind that the public doesnt have to believe what they see so much as believe the expert telling them how it is. IE most people still think laser guns are sci-fi but a technocrat can get away with one as coincidental. It doesnt matter if Nova powers are surreal and disturbing if the govenment tells people they are protected under the zurich accord and power comes from the Node.

None of which changes the fact that *in* *person*, nova powers inspire disbelieve even to the truly jaded. The mega-wits section states that pretty clearly, and I think there's something in the mega-physical area as well.

Let's try a different example. In the WOD (and RL) there are people who can order the police around; the Mayor, the Chief of Police, etc. This also holds true for pretty much anyone in any organization. The Church, the state, every large company, etc. They all have ranks, and your generic guy isn't at the top.

So... if a dozen baselines are watching, can a mental mage just mind-mess a cop in open view? I mean *somewhere* there is *someone* who really can give him orders. So is the obvious reaction "oh, he must be the Mayor"?

If the answer is "no", & this would invoke paradox, then mages hit the baseline radar as "a generic person", and the knowledge that "somewhere in the world there exists a few novas who can do this" isn't going to help him.

[Sprocket]

Re: Novas & oWoD Mages-

I believe that Pyramid magazine did a crossover article on something like this, if any of you have a subscription.

As to whether the known existence of novas would make Paradox any less constricting to mages? I'd have to vote "no" for one simple reason. Check out p. 146 of the Aberrant core book. Humans with a Quantum Trait don't look like baseline humans (in most cases) AFA baselines onlookers are concerned. Provided that the nova isn't one of the "stealth nova" exceptions or using Mr. Nobody, baselines are not going to be confusing mages with novas any time soon.

[metaphysician]

Do you mean "different universe" or would they think it was a "different pantheon", which is a bit different.

'Different universe'. There are quite a few pantheons, with great differences in culture, and even theology, but they all recognize their common origin, and the fundamental elements of their nature.

[SkyLion]

None of which changes the fact that *in* *person*, nova powers inspire disbelieve even to the truly jaded. The mega-wits section states that pretty clearly, and I think there's something in the mega-physical area as well.

Let's try a different example. In the WOD (and RL) there are people who can order the police around; the Mayor, the Chief of Police, etc. This also holds true for pretty much anyone in any organization. The Church, the state, every large company, etc. They all have ranks, and your generic guy isn't at the top.

So... if a dozen baselines are watching, can a mental mage just mind-mess a cop in open view? I mean *somewhere* there is *someone* who really can give him orders. So is the obvious reaction "oh, he must be the Mayor"?

If the answer is "no", & this would invoke paradox, then mages hit the baseline radar as "a generic person", and the knowledge that "somewhere in the world there exists a few novas who can do this" isn't going to help him.

AFAIK, using mind control powers doesnt invoke paradox because no one can tell who is doing what. And it doesnt matter so long as there is a "coincidental" effect that can be described. A HITmark can pop out a chain gun and not invoke paradox because there is a scientific "explanation." If a Mage dressed up in a costume he could get away with quite alot IMHO. Also I dont particularly buy the "Nova physique" thing. I pretty much disregard that for any game i am in, unless it relates to aberrations or I buy up Appearance to simulate that. Esteban for example is Q4, has appearance 2 (by default, since he can shapeshift) and doesn't display a nova physique outside of his percentage of body fat being super low. But there are tubby Novas too, or at least there should be IMHO.

[Alex Green]

AFAIK, using mind control powers doesnt invoke paradox because no one can tell who is doing what.

So can a Mage use his powers to walk a tight rope in full view of everyone even if he doesn't have those skills? Could he *spiderman* up a building with no gear? Could he use the same acrobatics that you showed me in that movie clip?

There actually are people who in RL can do these sorts of things... it's just that they're about as common as novas are supposed to be.

So same question. Paradox invoking or not?

And it doesnt matter so long as there is a "coincidental" effect that can be described.

If you have to explain things via "coincidental" stuff then you're taking nova powers off the table.

Also I dont particularly buy the "Nova physique" thing... and [Esteban]doesn't display a nova physique outside of his percentage of body fat being super low.

These two statements conflict. The nova "physique" *is* the super low fat body.

But there are tubby Novas too, or at least there should be IMHO.

There are. Specifically out of the 250 or so novas with stats we have exactly *one* tubby nova (that idiot brick in Reighn of Evil).

Somewhat more common are the Q1 "closet nova" crowd... including that Directive Nova who didn't know he'd erupted. Considerably more common are the shapeshifters or Mega-Nobody types. I won't include the Dorm 4+ novas because they have to lose the fat to use their powers.

Considering how rare novas are, if you see someone on the street with a low body fat, odds are pretty good he isn't a nova.

But the reverse isn't true. The stereotype, with *very* good reason, is no one with any body fat is a nova.

[metaphysician]

OTOH, it should be noted that the most common tells of novadom, the nova physique and anima banner, are pretty trivial for a mage to duplicate.

[SkyLion]

So can a Mage use his powers to walk a tight rope in full view of everyone even if he doesn't have those skills? Could he *spiderman* up a building with no gear? Could he use the same acrobatics that you showed me in that movie clip?

There actually are people who in RL can do these sorts of things... it's just that they're about as common as novas are supposed to be.

Yes. Aboslutely. All that matters is that people have a vague idea that something like it is possible. If the mage doesnt have the skill in question and used magic for it and looked like a tightrope walker then people would look and see a tightrope walker. They dont know that the person in question doesnt have that skill. Furthermore the entire Akashic Brotherhood can get away with some seriously amazing stuff coincidentally because the public has an idea about "highly trained martial artists" and even ki. Spidermanning up a wall would be more vulger, unless he had some kind of climbing claws. He could however jacki-chan it up the wall by kicking off periodically.

So same question. Paradox invoking or not?

Spiderman climbing. Paradox. Other stuff, probably not. if the public knew of the idea of Novas however it changes the paradigm. Have the mage put on a costume and voila! Again, just as the AB uses public ideas about the possible abilities of martial artists, knowing that Novas can fly and shoot fireballs is more than enough. For further reference i suggest you read up on your Mage: the Ascension...

If you have to explain things via "coincidental" stuff then you're taking nova powers off the table.

See my above post. Coincidental only has to fit with what the public knows. As soon as the technocracy releases scientific findings about Nova powers they have changed the paradigm (since they control it in canon WoD).

These two statements conflict. The nova "physique" *is* the super low fat body.

And muscularture, and skeltal structure. But I dont buy that part of the Nova mythology. Alot of Novas do have the metabolsim, but for verisimilitude's sake, and since being a Nova doesnt automatically up your physical or social stats (even if most players do buy them up), I would say its common but not mandatory. Also see MP's post above/below...

OTOH, it should be noted that the most common tells of novadom, the nova physique and anima banner, are pretty trivial for a mage to duplicate.

'nuff said...

[Rorx]

In the version of Mage I mostly played (Revised I think, I've lost track of how many version there have been so far), you didn't get any Paradox for coincidental effects, and it is pretty easy to get coincindental effects for Mind, Correspondence and some Life effects. As Sky says the entire Akashic Brotherhood (my personal favourites anyway) had an advantage from all those martial arts films and stories in making a fair chunk of stuff coincidental for them when it wouldn't tend to be for another mage.

Having said that the growth of the CCTV would make scrying with Correspondance inceasingly coincidental for the Virtual Adepts, or anyone else using a computer as a focus/prop for the effect.

On the other hand, I think I need to read more Scion before I could see how it helps the Scion/Aberrant discussion. ::biggrin

[Alex Green]

...As soon as the technocracy releases scientific findings about Nova powers they have changed the paradigm (since they control it in canon WoD)...

Wait, the technocracy releases a bunch of technical papers saying it's possible, everyone reads the readers digest version of this, and they can now look at a mage or nova and say/believe/think "That's Impossible. Totally Unreal. He Must be a god because that's breaking all kinds of natural laws."

And this won't invoke Paradox because the baseline knows intellectually that scientists claim this is still following natural laws?

Further... if this *is* the result, it implies the Technocracy *won't* do this. Forget about the novas, they'll find *something* to tell everyone that won't give this kind of power to the mages.

[metaphysician]

Well, presuming a very public N-Day, things are beyond the Technocracy's abilities to simply suppress.

My guess is, the Technocracy actually would pretty soon release something along the lines of Mazarin and Rashoud's research, claiming a "strong scientific" explanation for nova powers. Its not what they'd *like* to do, as yes, it gives mages a step up. Its more that they won't have a choice, and its the best damage control option they have.

See, if they *don't* come up with a scientific explanation, well, the novas are still there. Instead of simply giving further leeway within the scientific paradigm, every time a nova acted, and people saw it or the consequences, it would corrode the scientific paradigm. Thus, you'd pretty soon have general mages gaining the same new flexibility *anyway*, except Technocratic power and influence would be notably reduced. Even worse, as the populace is convinced that science is meaningless, the impossible can happen at will, and that the world is a unpredictably chaotic place, the Gauntlet gets weakened, and reality's defenses against Lovecraftian horrors that want to devour existence break down.

Given the choice, the Technocracy would prefer to not have this happen at all, but if N-Day did happen, they'd pretty much be forced to come up with a public scientific explanation for novas.

[Alex Green]

...anima banner, are pretty trivial for a mage to duplicate.

Circular logic. Novas are immune to Paradox.

If having novas around, even though their powers aren't believable, makes mages immune to paradox then they won't need anima banners. But if it *doesn't* make them immune to paradox then generating a anima banner is a bad thing.

[metaphysician]

Its more a matter of degree. Novas around don't make mages immune to paradox, they just change what can be passed off as coincidental versus not. Adding a fake anima banner to an otherwise vulgar spell, if it looks enough like other common anima banners to be mistaken for such, would help.

And I'm sorry, but you place *waaay* too much weight in one or two offhand statements. Humanity likely never finds nova powers to be *mundane*, true, but you don't have to believe a magical effect is ordinary for it to be coincidental. You just have to believe its *possible*. And the defining benchmark is not the casual "that will never happen" that people often toss around with regard to things like 'winning the lottery'. Its the literal, emphatic "that can never happen", with a side order of "if it ever did happen, my entire world view would collapse."

Put bluntly, for nova powers to generate the same degree of "disbelief" that produces vulgar paradox, the world of Aberrant would have to be subject to outright global scale insanity to be consistent. And I don't mean the minor league stuff, I mean the "I am living in a delusion that does not correspond with the world around me" type of insanity.

[Alex Green]

That line of reasoning leads us to... since Divis can do anything, any mage use all of their powers in public.

For that matter it also leads us to... since the President (or terrorists) can have a nuke dropped anywhere, any mage who can simulate that effect can do the same without generating paradox.

[metaphysician]

Not really, because observer disbelief isn't the only restriction on magic. Even with no significant disbelief, some specific effects will still always be vulgar, and in particular, *all* archmagery is always vulgar. Even back in the Mythic Age, Sphere 6+ effects induced paradox.

Or to put differently, even if between the huge masses of novas, and Divis Mal, the publically accepted paradigm becomes "anything is possible"? Mages still have to deal with paradox. Its just the way their powers work. The main mages who would not notice this, are the ones weak enough that they can't cast an effect of sufficient magnitude to generate any inherent paradox. Which is to say, those weak enough that they are roughly only as powerful as Inspired, anyway.

[metaphysician]

Actually. . . out of curiousity, where *did* you get the idea that mages turn into gods if there's no disbelief to limit them?

[SkyLion]

Its not that Mages become Gods...opbviously their level of power is delineated by theior levels of arete and sphere knowledge. HOWEVER, a Mages's spheres are arguably the most powerful ability in any White Wolf game anywhere. Their ability is so braod, so loosley defined that a Mage with a decent arete, some quintessence to spend and medium to high levels in only a couple of speres can accomplish pretty much ANYTHING. There are so many different solutions to every possible dillema that many times you could come up with effects across many different spheres.

I mean seriously, a werewolf vs a human mage for example is going to shred the mage who is not as phyically powerful (although the scales become more balanced with Prime magick backing you up). But a Mage with even a tiny bit of prep is going to lay waste to most anything. This is in default Mage btw where it is easy enough to do anything you want and be clever about the "coincidences."

I was merely pointing out that if Aberrants *were* to be introduced into Mages setting and the technocracy responded like the conspiracy in Aberrant, publishing research, the zurich accord etc., that within a few years its going to be easy for a Mage to pass off more "vulgar" effects because the public is thoroughly aware of the existence and "possibilities" that a world of Novas represents.

Of course the technocracy gains the same advantage, the Progenitors convention is going to use magick to fully unlock the secrets of the Node *very* quickly, can easily mass produce nova clones, give themselves nodes, and on top of the Mage factions, the other supernaturals are going to respond in kind to the "escalation" that Novas in a crossover setting would create...

...all of which is why I like to keep my game universes quite separate thankyouverymuch...

::closedeyes

[metaphysician]

*cough* Let me just say this: while Technocratic inspired science is up to the challenge of analyzing and understanding the M-R Node, given that it otherwise takes even a nova with Mega Int 8 a Level 5 power to reliably induce eruption in random people?

Actually creating a nova intentionally and specifically would require about eight dots in at least two spheres ( Life and Prime ), and thus archmagery. And thus, guaranteed paradox.

Which is to say, the Technocracy ain't mass producing novas.

[SkyLion]

I humbly disagree and you are patently wrong.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

The Q8 power lets you induce novahood yes and is balanced in that system. However given the listings for 5 dots in the spheres...complete understanding and the ability to create life...you are so wrong. I just cant say it any clearer. You are VASTLY underrating the power of Sphere Magic. it would NOT take an oracle level to unravel the complete human/nova genome and find EXACTLY what the node is doing. Ultimately the node is just a piece of biology, and the progenitors have that down pat.

[Rorx]

Have to agree with Sky, I haven't looked at Mage for a while, but altering one small section of genetic code in an adult would be about Life 4 and Prime 3 to make it permanant. However, that would only make someone a Latent Nova. A separate Prime effect of 2 or 3 should be enough to cause eruption.

To control what powers someone gets is more tricky, I'd suggest Mind 4, Life 3-4 and Prime 3-4.

[Alex Green]

Metaphysician: Actually. . . out of curiousity, where *did* you get the idea that mages turn into gods if there's no disbelief to limit them?

SkiLion: a Mages's spheres are arguably the most powerful ability in any White Wolf game anywhere. Their ability is so braod, so loosley defined that a Mage with a decent arete, some quintessence to spend and medium to high levels in only a couple of speres can accomplish pretty much ANYTHING.

From that.

SkiLion: …the Progenitors convention is going to use magick to fully unlock the secrets of the Node *very* quickly, can easily mass produce nova clones, give themselves nodes…

Given the lack of rules for mages stealing the abilities of Wraiths, Fairies, Werewolves, etc, this seems dubious. Even if it does work considering what happened when Mages became Vampires this is unlikely to work well. Far as I can tell only humans can become Mages and Novas aren’t human.

Metaphysician: …even if between the huge masses of novas, and Divis Mal, the publically accepted paradigm becomes "anything is possible"?

Would someone please explain the difference between “anything is possible” and “the great barrier falls letting the elder gods back to Earth so they can enslave humanity”? I don’t see anything that stops *them* from pretending to be novas too.

Metaphysician: …Mages still have to deal with paradox. Its just the way their powers work.

How so?

And no one answered my question about nuclear weapons. The President can drop a nuke anywhere, does that mean that a mage with enough Forces or whatever can do the same thing without it being vulgar?

[SkyLion]

I dont know why the quotes aren't working...

Metaphysician: Actually. . . out of curiousity, where *did* you get the idea that mages turn into gods if there's no disbelief to limit them?

SkiLion: a Mages's spheres are arguably the most powerful ability in any White Wolf game anywhere. Their ability is so braod, so loosley defined that a Mage with a decent arete, some quintessence to spend and medium to high levels in only a couple of speres can accomplish pretty much ANYTHING.

From that.

The idea behind what I said is that there are so many ways to approach a problem. If you are really good in a couple areas it is usually possible to find a way to use those abilities to create the solution you want.

SkiLion: …the Progenitors convention is going to use magick to fully unlock the secrets of the Node *very* quickly, can easily mass produce nova clones, give themselves nodes…

Given the lack of rules for mages stealing the abilities of Wraiths, Fairies, Werewolves, etc, this seems dubious. Even if it does work considering what happened when Mages became Vampires this is unlikely to work well. Far as I can tell only humans can become Mages and Novas aren't human.

Mages don't "steal powers." They use Magickal effects to make reality do what they want on an even more fundamental level than Novas or psions do. Wraiths have power by being undead. Faeries exist in the world of dreams. Mages gain power from their immortal Soul (avatar). Werewolves have avatars that are essentially tied into the spirit Avatar of the world (Gaia) and gain their powers (gifts) as boons from the spirit world in order to fullfuill their spiritual function.

Technocrats could use magick to clone Novas wholecloth. It would be much harder, though theoretically possible to use genetic engineering to rewrite a persons genetic code to give them a node. Much Much easier to use magick to masquerade as a Nova, once that paradigm shift occurs.

Metaphysician: …even if between the huge masses of novas, and Divis Mal, the publically accepted paradigm becomes "anything is possible"?

Would someone please explain the difference between "anything is possible" and "the great barrier falls letting the elder gods back to Earth so they can enslave humanity"? I don't see anything that stops *them* from pretending to be novas too.[/quote]

There arent Old Ones per se in the WoD. There are the collosol forces of Reality we call the Wyrm. He is already alive and kicking and his minions, the Black Spiral Dancers, Banes and Fomori can already use all their powers whether people believe in them or not and are not subjected to the laws of paradox. There is mention of other Big Bad things that exist beyond the Deep Umbra, but they have a hard time pentrating the Deep Umbral Horizon for other reasons. That said there is a Level 9 or 10 Dark Thamaturgy ritual that basically summons Satan to Earth.

Its all in the effect. A mage cant "throw a fireball" (though awakened people would clearly see that is what happened). He CAN make it so the gas main you are standing on "coincidentally" blows up. The cool thing is, the ST doesn't have to even say that there was a gas main there. People Investigating however would find that reality had conformed to the mages wish.

So on that note a mage with matter and such could create a bomb and that would not be paradoxical, so long as he didnt create it out of thin air (pulling it out of a big duffel bag would work though).

A Mage could duplicate an explosion and have it be something coincidental to be found out later, as in say a matter-created car-bomb. Generally Mages dont have the power to create things on scale with a nuke though.

[Rorx]

They may not be able to create the effect of a nuke very easily, but given 3 or at tops 4 dot of Correspondence they can find a nuke and transport it to themselves, the boot of a car or enclosed truck to have it appear in would even make it coincidental.

[Alex Green]

That sort of thing is *exactly* why game balance and sanity go out the window if we follow a "it might be possible for some specific nova somewhere so mages don't get paradox for it" line of thought... although IMHO monsters from the ID coming back to the Earth when the walls fall is even worse (hey, *anything goes*).

The Tech Overlords have *won* the reality war, they're supposed to be the uber powerful guys with the mages on the run. Mages only survive because they blend into normal humanity and practice their powers in secret and by coincidence. Coming out into the open and pretending to be novas and assuming their "rock star" lifestyle sounds good but IMHO it breaks too many of the core functionings of being a mage.

It's like a mage trying to use coincidence to pretend to be a specific person (the President for example). Novas are a non-human natural force and IMHO they would add a *lot* to what is coincidently possible. But pretending to be a nova sounds pretty vulgar.

As for becoming a nova via genetic manipulation and cloning, that also sounds good... but we have in game attempts at this which have turned out very poorly. I.e. the Coalition and the Trinity Super Solider Program types. The one guy who can do this (Divis) also has enough power to rip the moon from it's orbit, which should give us an idea of the scale of power needed for this sort of thing. The Q-min and Power level for both of those abilities is the same BTW.