Aberrant RPG - Aberrant / Scion Crossover

[metaphysician]

Lets say your PC suffers a dimensional accident, and lands in the world of Scion, some time between the escape of the Titans, but before the creation of Durance Vile.

What happens?

[Rorx]

Given that I've only read the Scion:Hero quickstart, I'd say Nathan (TransD) would be pretty confused for a while about what the hell was going on. Keep his head down as much as possible until he had worked out the sides that exist and how to try to tell which is which. Since Nathan doesn't (yet) have any aberrations hopefully he wouldn't be mistake for a Titanspawn and so would probably end up joining a Band to do what he could to help out.

Given his M-Int and engineering/science skills he could try to find a way home, but what take a long time, a lot of cash and runs the risk of opening his home world up to invasion by the Titanspawn, on top of everything that is already going on there!

Not being familiar with the rest of the trilogy (demigod/god), I'm not entirely sure where a Nathan's power levels would put him. From looking at the characters in the Hero quick start scenario I would say that he is certainly more powerful than they are, so at the higher end of Hero or into Demigod I guess?

[Alex Green]

Give me a century or two and I'll be Divis.

[metaphysician]

Well, power wise, I generally peg the Hero level scions as being roughly equivalent to Inspired, from Adventure. Demigod level Scions are equivalent to novas not in excess of Q5 ( and on the lower end, also with Trinity psions ). God level Scions, Q6 and up.

Its not a direct analogy, as for example, novas can generally develop potent wide area destructive powers sooner than Scions, but OTOH, Scion epic attributes rapidly become far more insane than mega attributes, so it evens out.

( and Divis? A small group of Legend 12 gods, if they fought smart? Probably could take him down. . . )

[Rorx]

If I'm right in thinking that Scion characters can have Epic stats upto the level of their Legend then the potential of a Legend 12 God with possibly several stats at Epic 10, giving him +46 Auto successes, should give even Divis pause for thought!

Having said that, remember I've only glanced throught Hero quickstart rules so I could be drastically overextrapolating.

[Alex Green]

RE: Taking Divis Down

How so? Figure 800 soak, 40+ actions a round, INV:Whatever he needs, and whatever powers he needs to win... how do you deal with that?

[Rorx]

RE: Taking Divis Down

How so? Figure 800 soak, 40+ actions a round, INV:Whatever he needs, and whatever powers he needs to win... how do you deal with that?

Well he would be in there world now, so I'm sure there are magic based aggravated attacks for which neither his Invulnerabilities nor his normal Soak would protect him. In addition I've already seen reference to magic knacks that allow the Scion to automatically go first in a turn, as well as have multiple attacks.

Conversely I'm sure most of his Nova attacks would possibly get around there Soak etc as well.

[metaphysician]

RE: Taking Divis Down

How so? Figure 800 soak, 40+ actions a round, INV:Whatever he needs, and whatever powers he needs to win... how do you deal with that?

Plot device statless powers, thats how.

( basically, ultimate attributes and avatar forms don't have hard and fast, limited rules- they have thematic guidelines. In alot of ways, they resemble Exalted absolute effects )

[metaphysician]

Well he would be in there world now, so I'm sure there are magic based aggravated attacks for which neither his Invulnerabilities nor his normal Soak would protect him. In addition I've already seen reference to magic knacks that allow the Scion to automatically go first in a turn, as well as have multiple attacks.

Conversely I'm sure most of his Nova attacks would possibly get around there Soak etc as well.

Actually, the biggest obstacle he or any nova would have is dealing with those passive DVs. Against even someone like God-level Yukiko, you pretty much need to roll 50 sux to hit her, ever. And even gods without massive epic dexterity still tend to have impressive DVs.

As for agg, well, there aren't really any agg attacks that aren't blocked by agg soak, to the best of my knowledge. I think there are some attacks that let you ignore all soak that doesn't derive from Stamina, though ( including intrinsic armor, btw ).

Really, against somebody Divis level, though, its really more about the Ultimate Attributes and Avatar Forms.

[metaphysician]

One of the easier combos that Legend 12 gods could use to kill Divis Mal, if one that involves making a sacrifice. . .

One becomes The General, Avatar of War. Another becomes The Reaper, Avatar of Death.

The General challenges Divis, as 'leader' of his side, to single combat. By the nature of this avatar form, Divis can't really refuse ( he can, but it *requires* he leave the field of battle, and basically means The General totally fucks whatever forces Divis was leading ). The General is the supreme warrior incarnate, but unlike the other avatar forms, is *not* invulnerable ( most cannot be killed, period, while they last, merely stalemated or forced into a disadvantage position ). However, one of the aspects of The General is that, if he loses? As an absolute effect, it results in the opponent taking a grievous wound, that badly hurts the morale of his own side.

The Reaper, meanwhile, has been standing nearby, and has power over life and death. This includes the ability to take the soul of anyone who has been measurably injured. The side effect of defeating The General more than counts. So, as soon as Divis kills or mains The General, The Reaper sweeps in and kills him.

( so, why isn't this tactic used more in the setting? Two main reasons:

1. The main enemies a Legend 12 god would need to use this on? Greater Titans and Titan Avatars... for whom killing them tends to have catastrophic consequences.

2. It requires a Legend 12 war god whose willing to sacrifice himself. While there are a fair number of such gods, they tend to fall into three categories:

A. "I am a self-centered asshole, like hell am I going to sacrifice my *own* life."

B. "I am a noble, heroic god. . ." *looks around at his fellow pantheon* ". . .and I must never die. Ever."

C. "I *am* going to do this, I'm just saving it for Ragnarok." )

[Alex Green]

Plot device statless powers, thats how.

Ah, now I understand. The same way Doc Octopus beat the Hulk. The writer wanted Doc to win so they skipped over the "how" business with a hand wave.

Actually, the biggest obstacle he or any nova would have is dealing with those passive DVs. Against even someone like God-level Yukiko, you pretty much need to roll 50 sux to hit her, ever. And even gods without massive epic dexterity still tend to have impressive DVs.

50 sux? What about Area of Effect or Resisted stuff? On a side note 50 sux is doable with MasteryX2.

...there are some attacks that let you ignore all soak that doesn't derive from Stamina, though ( including intrinsic armor, btw ).

Presumably all, or at least most, Abby powers fall into the "intrinsic" category. This would include Armor and INV (although perhaps not Elemental Mastery: Shield and FF).

One of the easier combos that Legend 12 gods could use to kill Divis Mal, if one that involves making a sacrifice. . .

One becomes The General, Avatar of War. Another becomes The Reaper, Avatar of Death.

Divis wouldn't do this, but could a less egotistical nova just leave the field of battle (retreat to a different continent for example), then waste both of them from there?

However, one of the aspects of The General is that, if he loses? As an absolute effect, it results in the opponent taking a grievous wound, that badly hurts the morale of his own side.

Nasty

The Reaper, meanwhile, has been standing nearby, and has power over life and death. This includes the ability to take the soul of anyone who has been measurably injured. The side effect of defeating The General more than counts. So, as soon as Divis kills or mains The General, The Reaper sweeps in and kills him.

I realize I'm applying mechanics where we're not supposed to, but if Divis has an action before The Reaper does, he could Regen or Heal the entire injury before Reap can act.

[Rorx]

Unless the Reaper was holding an action? ::biggrin

[Alex Green]

Unless the Reaper was holding an action? ::biggrin

Can you hold an action past one round and use it to interrupt someone on the next if their init is a lot higher than yours? Although if it all happens on the first round it might not help.

Or maybe Scion has a "I go first" power?

[Rorx]

I would be very surprised if there wasn't an "I go first" power. In fact I think one of the characters in the Scion:Hero quickstart has one.

[metaphysician]

Once Avatar Forms start getting deployed, especially, things like "normal order of initiative" cease to be applicable, as do most other mechanical concerns. Basically, have you ever read the first Sandman story arc? Envision something along the lines of the duel of forms Morpheus engaged Choronzon in.

( Plus, if a wound could be healed easily with a single action, it wouldn't quite count as 'grievous'. )

[metaphysician]

Oh, and regarding the 'non-retreating retreat', I think that runs into the problem that, the properties of The General are not defined in mechanical terms, with things like range limits. If Divis is still in range to shoot at The General, and still intends to do so, then he hasn't retreated, so he's effectively chosen Option "Fight it Out and Hope for the Best". At best, it gives him a narrative advantage in the upcoming duel ( playing to his strength and fighting intelligently, as opposed to doing something stupid ).

( whereas, by comparison, Pax would be more likely to charge in and use fisticuffs, which because its fighting stupid, would put him at a disadvantage compared to The General, and most likely mean he's going to lose )

[SkyLion]

50 sux? What about Area of Effect or Resisted stuff? On a side note 50 sux is doable with MasteryX2.

Uh-uh Alex. Mastery or even Matery x2 doesn't do anything for yo0ur to-hit roll. It only affects the effects of the power itself.

Also you fail to grasp that in Scion's world the Gods are...actually Gods. Divis is a godlike post human mutant with vast power but he is not a fundamental immortal part of the mythos and tapestry of reality.

[Rorx]

So that's what is likely to happen at the extreme end of a Divis type character strutting his stuff, but what do people think of more normal scale characters, or indeed their own ones from various games?

[BlueNinja]

So that's what is likely to happen at the extreme end of a Divis type character strutting his stuff, but what do people think of more normal scale characters, or indeed their own ones from various games?

I'd say it depends.

Divis from 2008? Yeah, he'll probably get spanked by a real divinity, because at that point he's just a wanna-be.

Divis (or really any nova) at Q10 with Planck Scaling and Universe Creation? Those gods are fucked. He can strip them powerless and drop them in a private Hell that customizes itself to keep the god trapped there for the rest of eternity.

[metaphysician]

Well, the biggest potential source of complications is, in Scion, super humanity is *not* public. While there isn't the whole fearful masquerade that the WoD has, pretty much all the supernatural beings tend to keep a relatively low profile ( to avoid Fatebinding ).

This doesn't mean that Scions cannot be public figures, a fair number are. But they aren't publically superhuman. Think a more covert version of the status quo from Adventure ( those who look for the extraordinary will find it, but most people will only ever here urban legends they won't believe anyway ).

[metaphysician]

I'd say it depends.

Divis from 2008? Yeah, he'll probably get spanked by a real divinity, because at that point he's just a wanna-be.

Divis (or really any nova) at Q10 with Planck Scaling and Universe Creation? Those gods are fucked. He can strip them powerless and drop them in a private Hell that customizes itself to keep the god trapped there for the rest of eternity.

Probably true, with one major proviso: this would pretty much bring Divis Mal into direct conflict with Fate itself. Whether this is something he can win or not, is way into "no way to tell" territory.

( its also thematically likely that some kind of 'over titan' ala Chaos, or Azathoth, exists, and if so, it would be beyond Mal's power to do much of anything to. . . but the reverse would be pretty much the case as well, as is typical for idiot gods )

[SkyLion]

I'd say it depends.

Divis from 2008? Yeah, he'll probably get spanked by a real divinity, because at that point he's just a wanna-be.

Divis (or really any nova) at Q10 with Planck Scaling and Universe Creation? Those gods are fucked. He can strip them powerless and drop them in a private Hell that customizes itself to keep the god trapped there for the rest of eternity.

But here we run into a mage-like question on the nature of paradigm. In Aberrant Planck Scaling works because the universe is fundamentally the way science says it is. For example a nova might "summon" ghosts using Q construct but they arent really the restless dead of the underworld. In Scion such things are real. This means (as MP pointed out) that the Universe is not a scientific one and that things are really held together by Fate and other such mystical ideas.

[Rorx]

Given the change in paradigm I think the grossness of Mal or a similarly overpowered insane Nova would inevitably fall foul of Fate.

[Alex Green]

This means (as MP pointed out) that the Universe is not a scientific one and that things are really held together by Fate and other such mystical ideas.

With Q10 it's not unreasonable to re-write natural laws.

[metaphysician]

With Q10 it's not unreasonable to re-write natural laws.

Yep, but OTOH, he'd have to deal with said natural laws being disinclined to let itself be rewritten. At which point, qeue omnipotent vs omnipotent.

Anybodies guess what would happen, but I'd place money on 'The End of the World as We Know It.'

[BlueNinja]

But here we run into a mage-like question on the nature of paradigm. In Aberrant Planck Scaling works because the universe is fundamentally the way science says it is. For example a nova might "summon" ghosts using Q construct but they arent really the restless dead of the underworld. In Scion such things are real. This means (as MP pointed out) that the Universe is not a scientific one and that things are really held together by Fate and other such mystical ideas.

Planck Scaling re-writes the most fundamental laws of the universe, in a limited area and for a limited time. So yes, I would say that it trumps divinity ... if you can catch them with it. ::devil It'd be child's play to strip them of their powers and put them on yourself. What would a Q10 nova do if he was then also a god? Doesn't bear thinking about.

Universe creation allows you to set the gates/portals where you want, to be triggered how you want, so sucking a divinity or two into a private hell dimension, where they will be completely and utterly without powers (because it's a one-way door) would be easy. After the first few gods go missing, the rest will probably realize that Something Is Up.

All of this is with the caveat that I have not actually read Scion rulebooks.

[SkyLion]

The people here talking in terms of natural laws are missing the point entirely. In Scion, those laws don't apply. They simply do not exist. The real laws in Scion are Supernatural. Science is not king and here it is the gods and Fate who control the fundamentals of reality. At best, the Q10 nova finds that Planck Scaling simply does not work...the Universe no longer responds to his paradigm of it and it no longer conforms to his scientific understanding. At worst, Fate comes in and spanks him for his hubris and presumption about the nature of reality. Science trumping Divinity? Pft. Science is man's poor attempt to assign order to the universe.

Perhaps to illustrate this better we should take a more Lovecraftian view, in that some things cannot be comrehended by the mortal mind. In other words, rather than space time being am impersonal function of our perception of the curvature of reality, in Scion, Time IS Kronos...a Titan. Just as in Lovecraft's work, the fundamental forces of the Universe ARE living Titans...beings of such immense power and scope that they dwarf even the gods. Or you could think of it like in the Marvel U, Where Inifity and the Universe are embodied in actual beings who are not seperate from reality.

[Rorx]

Indeed you could go so far as to say that a Nova's powers only work at all because when he gets dumped into the Scion universe his belief in his own powers creates a (very minor, since it has 1 believer) god of Quantum powers. In which case the extent of his powers is likely to be reduced to match the status of this god, and he should try to help it increase its powers/status if he wants to see his own powers grow/return.

[SkyLion]

Thats cool! So for a Nova to gain and use powers he would essentially have to create a new mythos around him/herself, finding worshipers etc. Still I think they are going to get a rude awakening by Fate.

[Rorx]

Thats cool! So for a Nova to gain and use powers he would essentially have to create a new mythos around him/herself, finding worshipers etc. Still I think they are going to get a rude awakening by Fate.

Actually rather than believersin him/herself theywould need believers in quantum powers working - the new god was a separate entity, not the Nova themselves. If you wanted to keep it within Scion terms you could say that the new god was created when they arrived there, and they were automatically made the first/only Scion:Hero/Demigod of this new god of Quantum

That is a possibilty only - a weak suggestion perhaps for if someone was so crazy as to run such a crossover game.

I agree, while a normal Nova could get away with playing around (in the background like the rest of the Scions) at the Hero/Demigod sort of levels if they get too powerful or too obnoxious/obvious then I assume Fate could wipe them out ala extreme Paradox in Mage.

[SkyLion]

Actually rather than believersin him/herself theywould need believers in quantum powers working - the new god was a separate entity, not the Nova themselves. If you wanted to keep it within Scion terms you could say that the new god was created when they arrived there, and they were automatically made the first/only Scion:Hero/Demigod of this new god of Quantum

That is a possibilty only - a weak suggestion perhaps for if someone was so crazy as to run such a crossover game.

I agree, while a normal Nova could get away with playing around (in the background like the rest of the Scions) at the Hero/Demigod sort of levels if they get too powerful or too obnoxious/obvious then I assume Fate could wipe them out ala extreme Paradox in Mage.

And that right there is the problem. The cosmolgy of the game is just too different. Its the same reason why i wouldn't want to see a crossover bringing Aberrants in the WoD. They utterly destroy the masquerade and change "consensus reality" in way that destroys the premise of the WoD.

Having said that I have always wanted to see a homebrew game where Aberrant rules were used but the concept of Quantum and Node were mutable. IE, you use the same mechanics but with one character it is defined as Magic and another it might be tech gadgets etc. Or even a fantasy setting with various races and such.

[BlueNinja]

The people here talking in terms of natural laws are missing the point entirely. In Scion, those laws don't apply. They simply do not exist. The real laws in Scion are Supernatural. Science is not king and here it is the gods and Fate who control the fundamentals of reality. At best, the Q10 nova finds that Planck Scaling simply does not work...the Universe no longer responds to his paradigm of it and it no longer conforms to his scientific understanding. At worst, Fate comes in and spanks him for his hubris and presumption about the nature of reality. Science trumping Divinity? Pft. Science is man's poor attempt to assign order to the universe.

See, this is where I disagree. When you get up to level six powers, you are not talking about obeying the laws of the universe, whether scientific or supernatural. You are talking about rewriting those laws to suit your own whim. At any point below that, I fully agree - the divinity is going to spank the nova and send him home. At Q10, the nova does not obey reality, he IS reality.

(By this point I've skimmed the first hundred pages or so of Scion: Hero. Well, read the fiction, skimmed the rules.)

[Alex Green]

We have a thread or two around here about WOD/Abby cross overs with appropriate rules. General rule of thumb is everyone keeps their own strengths and weaknesses and we don't worry too much about the laws of physics/magic/whatever preventing the existence of said powers.

[metaphysician]

I tend to agree.

Now, stupid question: has anyone else here read all three of the core Scion books?

[SkyLion]

I agree to disagre. Even Planck Scaling isn't rewriting shit. Planck scaling is a scientifically verifable property of the Universe. Aberrants don't "bend or break the laws of physics" as many people seem to misunderstand. They simply apply the laws of quantum physics.

[metaphysician]

Comic books have a long and storied tradition of following the idea that, once taken to their ultimate extent, the distinction between 'science' and 'magic' ceases to be applicable.

That said, I don't think Q10 Divis would be quite the "I win" figure some are portraying him as. In particular, one or two of the Avatar forms would potentially stalemate Plank Scaling ( The Void in particular ). He would be more powerful than anything in the setting smaller than a Greater Titan, however ( and unless Loki succeeds at his primary scheme, none of the Greater Titans are capable of especially intelligent activity ).

[BlueNinja]

Comic books have a long and storied tradition of following the idea that, once taken to their ultimate extent, the distinction between 'science' and 'magic' ceases to be applicable.

That said, I don't think Q10 Divis would be quite the "I win" figure some are portraying him as. In particular, one or two of the Avatar forms would potentially stalemate Plank Scaling ( The Void in particular ). He would be more powerful than anything in the setting smaller than a Greater Titan, however ( and unless Loki succeeds at his primary scheme, none of the Greater Titans are capable of especially intelligent activity ).

Let me restate my argument for clarity.

Planck Scaling is probably the I-win power. If you can manage to catch the divinity in the (rather small) area of effect. If you miss, you're dead before you can activate it again.

Universe Creation is a better I-win power, if only because you set up a no-magic universe with a door that opens whenever someone of Legend >9 walks through it. ::happy

Quantum Inferno ... well, I don't know the relative soak->damage comparison, but it's worth a consideration.

Anything else, the nova is going down, and going down hard. ::sad

[Alex Green]

Planck Scaling is probably the I-win power. If you can manage to catch the divinity in the (rather small) area of effect. If you miss, you're dead before you can activate it again.

*Small*? *Again*?

After it goes up it's *never* coming down because you can define the rules so you never run out of juice. Similarly, it's trivial to get Mega-Manip 10 which means you're looking at 10+ succ.

Succ can be spent to 2x the area of effect, so your 10+ succ can easily turn an area of effect of 11 meters into 11+ kilometers. Center the effect on yourself and then just teleport a few kilometers away from any pesky gods, and define the rules so that they lose.

[SkyLion]

Let me restate my argument for clarity.

Planck Scaling is probably the I-win power. If you can manage to catch the divinity in the (rather small) area of effect. If you miss, you're dead before you can activate it again.

Universe Creation is a better I-win power, if only because you set up a no-magic universe with a door that opens whenever someone of Legend >9 walks through it. ::happy

Quantum Inferno ... well, I don't know the relative soak->damage comparison, but it's worth a consideration.

Anything else, the nova is going down, and going down hard. ::sad

Planck Scaling is only an I win power in the Abby Universe. In the Scion Universe the laws of reality are not the way you think they are. You cant use a scientificly theorized power to deal with things that were old when time was young...

Again, thik of it in a lovecraftian sense and you will be closer to the mark.

[SkyLion]

Comic books have a long and storied tradition of following the idea that, once taken to their ultimate extent, the distinction between 'science' and 'magic' ceases to be applicable.

That said, I don't think Q10 Divis would be quite the "I win" figure some are portraying him as. In particular, one or two of the Avatar forms would potentially stalemate Plank Scaling ( The Void in particular ). He would be more powerful than anything in the setting smaller than a Greater Titan, however ( and unless Loki succeeds at his primary scheme, none of the Greater Titans are capable of especially intelligent activity ).

We arent talking scoence vs. magic. We are talking about science being utterly wrong in a universe where all the gods and creation myths are real. Science and evolution never happened and reality isnt based on sun quantum universe, iot is based on infinite mystical forces. In the Scion Universe, Aberrants lose.