The Fourth Edition D&D is out!

[Finbar]

Well, I've finished reading through the PG, and I've definitely decided that my group won't be using it.

The system definitely went with a WoW model; there are abilities that only help you in combat, with no real use outside of combat. You have several abilities that are usable at-will, with other abilities that you can use once per encounter and once per day. As you increase in level, you must decide on which abilities you want, and you have the ability to "retrain" every level, shifting out skills, feats, and abilities as needed.

Neat concept, but it's good only for combat twinks. In fact, there is one rogue ability and a couple of ranger abilities that can be used outside of combat; most increase your ability in combat. Out of the various feats, only a few have any use outside of combat, and those few allow you to pick up skills and languages, as well as sort of multi-class. You have very few initial skills, and you are extremely limited when it comes to picking up skills later (you can only do this by using a feat). The good news is that there are fewer skills, but the emphasis is on what you can do with them in combat rather than non-combat uses (even the knowledge skills give bonuses to combat. Languages are even worse; you start with two or three languages, and need a feat to know more; high Intelligence no longer gives bonus languages. I really miss the 3.5E system, where you could either master a few skills, or know a little bit of everything. I'm definitely going to miss the Craft, Profession, and Knowledge skills. Because of this, and the way stats can easily be raised, INT, WIS, and CHA are ALL dump stats now, unless you have some specific trick you want on a talent tree; you don't really need more than INT 13 and CHA/WIS 15 for access to all the feats.

You can no longer really multi-class; you can pick up feats that allow you to simulate it, but you are limited to the class you start with. And it's hard to develop new classes; you need to create them with their very own talent trees of over seventy abilities, as well as allow for different initial builds, as well as paragon levels; in essence, it's like developing a new magic-using class without being able to share spells. However; beyond the talent trees, there is no real difference between classes; the classes have all of the same saves and to hit numbers, even the classes do have different number of hit points and weapon/armor proficiencies.

If you like wizards, you're going to get it in the shorts. The good news is that they can take damage without it affecting their casting ability, and armor is no longer an issue when casting spells. They can fight as well as fighters (same saves and to hit numbers, and access (through feats) to the same arms and armor), even though they don't have the same number of hit points. However, you don't have the same access to spells, and anyone can cast rituals.

In short, if you're into role-playing, there really isn't any good reason to play the new system. If you like hack and slash, however, you'll really like it....

Any other thoughts...?

FR

[SkyLion]

DnD has always been behind the curve of rpg's. Say what you want about D20 but the fact remains that it is a system based on "levels" with standardized ability packages as one increases in level.

Having said that I actually liked 3.5

*Sigh*

Same thing that happened to the WoD...you can only sell so many books before your market is tapped out and happily playing without your help. They have to "invent" something to keep people buying.

Meh.

[metaphysician]

From what I have heard, the Skill Challenge system for non-combat encounters is suitably awesome.

Everything else is spot on. They cloned too much from WoW.

[knave]

Initially I thought - sucks to D&D 4th - it's Wow. If I want to play wow I'll play wow.

However, a good friend of mine tried it and has come to the conclusion that it's actually quite good. It's just not a role playing game any more - it's a tabletop wargame with role playing elements. For D&D that means its going back to its roots.

I shan't be buying it, but I thought the opinion worth sharing.

[SkyLion]

To me at least Knave that comment is a real criticism. They sold out to try and pull in the MMORPG crowd and lost sight of what a roleplaying game is about...if they ever really knew...

[metaphysician]

I would place my money on that latter element. D&D has always kinda struggled to escape its first generation RPG roots.

Which, while I suppose there is a place for games that are all roll, no role, makes me sad. I was hoping 4e would resemble 3.5, except with:

-Vitality/Wound system in place of the traditional hit points

-A non memorization based magic system

[Shade Sentinel]

I have not foud 4th edition to be all that dreadful thus far. I still contend, though, that if you want a decent fantasy system, play hero fantasy. Its good stuff.

D&D has always been fun resource material and interesting world settings. The system was always a "ok lets deal with this so we can...(inserty anything)"

I've been a D&D'er since I started gaming with sky when were 10 or 12 or something. I still say its a fun way to spend a few hours, regardless of whether or not I have to have a creative explination for hitpoints :-D

[metaphysician]

I wanted to like Fantasy Hero, but the lack of a good magic system really killed my interest.

[BlueNinja]

I played one session of 4th ed with my only buddy here in San Diego, the good Doctor Microwave. The majority (nigh unanimous) opinion of the group is that they now wish they hadn't spent the money on the core books. ::thumbdown: Magic blows, clerics especially IMO blow, and 90% of the various abilities are combat-only (given how many people I know who complained about the combat-only stuff in 3.x, this is worse!), and in general, we hated it.

[metaphysician]

Just ducking in to say, the Warriors & Warlocks supplement for M&M 2e is *awesome*. Despite being technically aimed more at a Howard or Moorcock-esque fantasy, there is nothing in D&D that can't be done pretty well with the system. They even manage to come up with a couple of framework concepts that cover more or less every likely variation upon fantasy spellcasting you'd actually want to use.