Aberrant RPG - On Superheroes...

[SkyLion]

Frank Herbert's Dune has been one of my favorite novels since I was a teenager. I have read it twice in my life and each time I literally could not put it down, devouring the 500+ page monstrosity in less than two days.

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Recently I decided to poke around on Wiki and research the series a bit (as I could never bring myself to read the sequals, knowing a bit of the fate of my favorite characters...).

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I came across some quotes by Frank Herbert in an interview that took place a full month before I was even born, and 6 years before the Venerable Watchmen explored such themes in graphic format. He wasn't only ahead of his time...he was ahead of mine!

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In any case, it illuminates the core theme of Aberrant and i thought you all might find it interesting and possibly worthy of discussion.

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Without further ado:

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The consequences of the actions of superheroes, and humanity's responses, form an overarching theme in the Dune series. In an interview with Frank Herbert published in Omni Magazine in July 1980, the author said:

"Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero... Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster." [1] Also:

"I had this theory that superheroes were disastrous for humans, that even if you postulated an infallible hero, the things this hero set in motion fell eventually into the hands of fallible mortals. What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"

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Interesting yeah? If we want to link the topic in to the real world; If we consider that historical figures like Jesus and the Buddha were "superheroes" (ie their mythos and their believers attributed to them divine insight or power and thought that to follow them meant salvation or peace etc...) then the religions that carried on their names have definitely devolved in the hands of their mortal custodians.

[blushing_bunny]

But heres the thing...Jesus and other prophets, died. Theres really no reason to expect a Hero, especially on the large scale, or even a supervillian acting in the macrel scale to die, or even be hindered by much. They are just too big, monsters that can disintegrate everything within a three mile radius, outer-things that should not exist with the capacities to think hundreds of steps ahead of any opponent that collects it's massive perceptions, Creatures so beautiful that to look upon them is to know absolute fealty and love, vicious demons that can talk you into literally burning your life away on the pyre of sacrifice!I could go on and on and on.

Hell, one powerful psychic based hero could probaby keep control of a 1'st world government, and except for other nova's or just plain cockiness on his part he can probably pull off violating any sense of true democracy for as long as it he remains top dog.

My point in all of this, is supers are probably very capable of keeping their hand on the ball as long as they keep their numbers up, and stay atleast half-way sane. Sure not every supe is likely to be Machiavelli and Superman's lub child, but there really doesn't need to be more than a few operating to usurp humanities "Free will" and fuck everything up.

[metaphysician]

Presuming that everyone is trying to either control the world or doesn't care, anyway. Under this viewpoint, the standard "superheroes exist to protect the world from superhuman threats" looks to have more wisdom.

OTOH, the idea that *any* attempt to try and change the world for the better will inevitably result in horror and catastrophe is more than a tad cynical. The trick is for the people involved to retain humility, and not fall into various hubristic mindsets. For example, if someone believes that every death, every disaster, every bad thing to happen in the world is their fault, if they don't put their every drop of sweat into preventing them all from happening *right now*. . . then bad things are going to happen, either before or after the hero in question destroys himself with a combination of martyrdom and megalomania.

[SkyLion]

Hmmm...cynisism. Well as the series progress, Paul Atreides son ends up sacrificing his humanity to become a superpowered sandworm-hybrid and a tyrant to all humanity. His presceince shows him the only way to avoid extinction for the species is to scatter them far and wide and develop technology that makes preesscience itself unusable...so no one person has the control.

[Alex Green]

Very interesting... I'd never made the connection between Dune and Supers.

Basically the issue comes down to, "how do you deal with supers without having them dominate things?"

Some powers are a lot easier to manage and be integrated into society than others.

Spiderman isn't a problem, probably even Venom isn't a problem. I'll even say the Hulk probably isn't a problem. In RL, Venom gets put down like a dog, Spiderman sells toys or becomes a city defender, and the Hulk works for the army.

Captain America? Assuming Superhuman insperation and Willpower... now we're starting to have a problem. He believes something and now everyone around him does too.

Magnetoe is a disaster assuming he has Mega-Chr as well as Q6 Magnetic powers. Not only does he believe in madness but he can convince other supers as well. On the other hand it's easy to say that he's simply killed the first time he loses a battle.

RE: Controlling the World

I strongly suspect this is a lot harder to do than we normally give it credit, especially if other supers are involved. The problem of the Spinx is where they say "smart enough to push the button that controls the world". There is no such button.

In Dune the "Leader for Life" had the advantages of being immortal, having precognition, a lot more juice than anyone else, a royal background, and TOTAL economic control over the Universe's Transportation and Medical systems by controlling their fuel. So not only does he have lots of stuff and lots of power, but the rest of the universe CAN'T tell him to go stuff himself without falling apart. The problem isn't so much him and his powers, the problem is the existance of the "Spice". Strip him of his control over Spice (i.e. technology invents longevity drugs and a star drive that aren't based on Spice), and all of a suden he's just a really old guy.

[metaphysician]

Depending on the period of time, a sane world wouldn't even *have* Magneto as a threat. He wouldn't have anywhere near as easy a time inspiring mutants to follow him if mutants weren't already treated like crap by the psychotic spite demons Earth-616 calls "humans". For that matter, he himself wouldn't be trying to persuade them of stuff if he didn't think mutants were going to get genocided.

*coughs, and takes off "Magneto was Right!" hat*

[SkyLion]

Thats pretty much what happens later on in the series Alex. Leto 2 (the one who merges with the sandtrout) works it so there is a ftl drive (well nav system really but the ships work different too) that isnt dependant on spice-dependant guildsmen to navigate (the no-ships).

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He then backs technology from the Ixians that renders people immune to his precognitive sight and makes sure that tech gets widely implemented.

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Precognition is what really made him invulnerable. Even when Paul Atreides was blind he was able to create the illusion of sight for years by following the visions he had already had...cool stuff.

[Sprocket]

Re: Frank Herbert's cynicism-

OTOH, the idea that *any* attempt to try and change the world for the better will inevitably result in horror and catastrophe is more than a tad cynical.

That's one of the reasons I became disenchanted with the Dune series & Frank Herbert's writings in general, even with the clear links to Aberrant. His blanket condemnation of social reform reminded me of certain older white folks I've seen in the mid 1990's (from a distance) who still took the Civil Rights movement as an unforgivable personal offense. Declaring *all* social change as a surefire invitation to disaster just sticks in my craw for some reason.

Re: Controlling the world-

I'd imagine that Leto 2 had a hard time maintaining control of his Empire at time, even with all his advantages & lack of true rivals. AFA I recall, he kept his Fish Speakers & Duncan Idaho gholas very busy squashing any real dissent. Imagine always (24/7) looking for sparks to snuff out in a fireworks warehouse for several thousand years. Small wonder that he wound up cooperating with his own assassination when he felt that he'd finished his work.

[Alex Green]

*coughs, and takes off "Magneto was Right!" hat*

IMHO, the reason Magneto was wrong is because in Real Life, mutant issues wouldn't parallel the civil rights issues.

The next huricane to hit Florida could do damage in the 1 to 5 Billion dollar range. So... given that there exists a mutant (Storm) who is at least a little civic minded, why exactly doesn't the govenor of Florida try to hire her for 50 million a year to prevent this? She's even a great looking female who is relatively normal looking and who'd look great on a campaign poster. He can't hire her because she's black because she's a mutant? Do the people of Florida really prefer to lose the occassional city rather than hire her? Would it matter if she were covered with blue fur?

One of the realistic aspects of Abberrant is how the real world would treat super foke. They're rock stars. Money comes easily, and almost all of them can legitamently earn a million dollars a year without too much problem. Further, that's not because they're popular, that's because the economic impact of super powers is extreme and we live in a society where that would come into play.

It's very difficult to build a useless Nova with 30 nova points. Most of the X-men are built on a lot more.

[SkyLion]

Re: Frank Herbert's cynicism-

That's one of the reasons I became disenchanted with the Dune series & Frank Herbert's writings in general, even with the clear links to Aberrant. His blanket condemnation of social reform reminded me of certain older white folks I've seen in the mid 1990's (from a distance) who still took the Civil Rights movement as an unforgivable personal offense. Declaring *all* social change as a surefire invitation to disaster just sticks in my craw for some reason.

Re: Controlling the world-

I'd imagine that Leto 2 had a hard time maintaining control of his Empire at time, even with all his advantages & lack of true rivals. AFA I recall, he kept his Fish Speakers & Duncan Idaho gholas very busy squashing any real dissent. Imagine always (24/7) looking for sparks to snuff out in a fireworks warehouse for several thousand years. Small wonder that he wound up cooperating with his own assassination when he felt that he'd finished his work.

It was the squashing consent that was integral to his plan though. The "Golden Path" he saw meant being a tyrnat and inhibiting anyone traveling or seeking their own way for *thousands* of years. He knew that when he finally perished the oppresion would backlash into "The Scattering" where humans would colonize out into the stars to a degree never even heard of in the 20,000 year old imperial timeline.

All part of his preescient plan...

[metaphysician]

Oh, I totally agree, the Aberrant attitudes are a lot more realistic.

The empirical evidence for the Marvel universe, however, is against you. The population is psychotic, and some days would rather screw over the man whose publically saved the planet numerous times, than simply leave him be ( let alone provide any gratitude ). Whether or not it was really intentional, I have long since stopped considering the population of mundane humans on Earth-Marvel to be, well, human.

[Sprocket]

Re: Leto 2's plan (second section of what SkyLion quoted)-

No argument there, I've read through the entire "canon" series more than once (what Frank Herbert wrote, & not his son).

Re: Marvel mass psychology-

I gave up trying to apply RL psychology to Marvel Earth's baseline populace years ago - just wrote 97-99% of them off as irredeemably pathological in one way or another. The "pessimistic 4-color" outlook of Marvel's writers makes certain stories easier, but it just doesn't translate into anything usable in an Aberrant chronicle AFAICT.

[SkyLion]

Another thing I found interesting was when one of the Duncan Gholas confronts Leto 2 on his all woman fish speaker military/police force. Duncan has some very traditional/mysoginistic views about the role of women and men in the military. Leto 2's response was that unless *extremely* well disciplined a male army ends up being essentially thugs and rapists.

Knowing of the wartime atrocities of our own history, Id say he has a point...

[astronomer]

I rather like the Dune series, especially Dune itself. The whole feudal aristocracy/ultra-high tech society was a bold idea back then, as well as the Sisterhood's eugenics experiment to achieve the Superman (very Nietchiean!). As for Supers in Dune, how about the Sisterhood and the Navigators? Both have unusual powers and wield vast influence, and are regarded as uncanny by the average man. Though the Atreides get most of the good press, they aren't the only Supers in the pool. ::sly

As for the Marvel populace being psychotically paranoid and hateful, I think it only a little overdone. A little reading of history and psychology shows that, while people do idolize and admire the successful and exceptional, they also fear and resent them. We may want to love our superstars, but we'll turn on them when they show their feet of clay. Just because someone is a great singer or athlete doesn't mean they're perfect, as Vicks the football player demonstrated by running an illegal dogfighting ring. Adolation turns to disgust. Now consider the impact of superpowers in a social matrix. Storm can indeed affect weather and could get lots of money and hero worship for doing so. But she's also human and can make mistakes and bad choices. If she warded off Hurricane Katrina but caused a major drought in the Midwest doing so ... you can't please eveyone. What if she had uncomfortable religious/social views (I'm a Goddess)? And if she can stop a hurricane, she can also start one (in one issue, she hits upstate New York with a hurricane while fighting Doc Doom: ooops!). Mixed feelings toward novas is normal, and all too human. Aberrant shows the initial good aspect (as did early DC and Marvel), but the darker, seamier side is visible on the horizon (as Marvel is doing now with Civil War). Yes, supers can be wonderful, but horrible as well.

[Alex Green]

The empirical evidence for the Marvel universe, however, is against you. The population is psychotic...

It isn't the population, it's the supers themselves.

This is crap left over from the golden age, where heroes were good and villians were evil and neither had any meaningful modivation. With silver they starting being like people, and with Spiderman's failure to save Gwen Stacy silver ended and they could fail like real people too.

But we still have the on going problems of the existence of heroes and villians. Joe Bozo could make millions or even Billions with his new invention... but instead he chooses to rob banks. Marvel population tollerates villians because they need to in order for the heroes to have someone to fight.

IMHO the Civil War was a big step in the right direction, i.e. towards stanity and reality. In RL the general population would never tollerate villians or out of control super types in general.

Knowing of the wartime atrocities of our own history, Id say he has a point...

The reason it's traditional is because it works.

Storm can indeed affect weather and could get lots of money and hero worship for doing so. But she's also human and can make mistakes and bad choices. If she warded off Hurricane Katrina but caused a major drought in the Midwest doing so ... you can't please eveyone.

True, but Florida should be happy.

We may want to love our superstars, but we'll turn on them when they show their feet of clay. Just because someone is a great singer or athlete doesn't mean they're perfect, as Vicks the football player demonstrated by running an illegal dogfighting ring. Adolation turns to disgust.

True, but we don't really need that singer or athlete. We (meaning the citizens of Florida) do need Storm.

Even if she gets into a sex scandle every week and gets caught sacrificing chickens every month and openly attempts to start a cult worshiping herself as a goddess. I, John Q Public, am still FAR better off with her than without her.

A RL example would be that Cuban millitary base where the big and bad terror types are being held. Are they being tortured? Do we really care? We, meaning the rest of the country, are (or at least believe we are) better off with those guards there, doing whatever they are doing. Until that changes or someone puts forward a better way to deal with that mess, we'll live with it.

[knave]

What I quite like about the otherwise pretty average book 'Soon I will be invincible' is that super intelligence very often goes hand in hand with a psychological disorder that causes people to A) Want to take over the world and Monologue about their plans and generally rant a lot. The real bad guys all have these affliction.

I do agree that in many way aberrant beats out the competition by having characters so powerful that the null manifesto makes a certain kind of sense.

[astronomer]

I guess what I was really getting at is that a powerful, benevolent nova (like Storm) can be really useful, as long as she stay in a safe niche. If she slips into the wrong mindset or starts evincing views counter to society, she can be really dangerous. John Q Public will definitely like her doing good deeds, but will be wary of her turning bad. In the military, it's called threat assessment. You plan for what someone can do, not necessarily what they will or are likely to do. 'Cause you never really know ...... ::shrug

[Alex Green]

I guess what I was really getting at is that a powerful, benevolent nova (like Storm) can be really useful, as long as she stay in a safe niche. If she slips into the wrong mindset or starts evincing views counter to society, she can be really dangerous. John Q Public will definitely like her doing good deeds, but will be wary of her turning bad.

True... but John Q has shown himself to be willing to tolerate a lot, and "views counter to society" doesn't cover all that much since society is so broad. John can easily tollerate "elite" members of society who are....

Members of non-mainstream religions (Madonna, many others).

Members of Crimial Cults (John Travolta, Tom Cruise)

Breaking serious laws on drug use (Kate Moss)

Committing other serious crimes (Bill Clinton... at about the same time people were talking about whether or not pergury was a serious crime, the historical reenactment "The Jack Bull" came out with a line from a judge that "pergury is a serious crime, it will cost you 2 years in prison".)

As far as I can tell the things for which we don't continue to accept the "elite" are....

Murder (O.J.)

Child Molestation (Michael Jackson... although some parts of the world continue to accept him and various Churches continue to be accepted dispite their part in various messes). Actually Michael Jackson is a good representative for how society might deal with someone who had aberrations.

With the exception of Bill Clinton, none of these people were anything other than popular. I.e. our lives and money didn't depend on them. I suspect strongly that when our money and lives do depend on them, the amount we're willing to tolerate will go up, not down.

[astronomer]

True enough, although I suspect there's going to be an uneasy balance there. Just how much will people accept before they say enough? Madonna's following Kabbalah or Cruise's being a Scientologist doesn't impact people being entertained. Clinton's woes would have been less if he had been more discreet or self-controlled, and, again, this didn't impact his performance (re: JFK and Marilyn Monroe). With a nova that can flatten city blocks (Pax) or drop hurricanes on cities (Splash) or even screw with the human species (Antaeus), people are going to be watching a bit nervously amidst the hero worship for signs of instability. Flamboyant or wild behavior that doesn't hurt anyone is more likely to be overlooked than sociopathic nutjobs or someone who get's stressed out and nukes downtown 'cause of a bad hair day. Those that can do major property damage or kill lots o' people will be watched a la the Directive. To do otherwise is just stupid.

[Shade Sentinel]

IMHO, the reason Magneto was wrong is because in Real Life, mutant issues wouldn't parallel the civil rights issues.

The next huricane to hit Florida could do damage in the 1 to 5 Billion dollar range. So... given that there exists a mutant (Storm) who is at least a little civic minded, why exactly doesn't the govenor of Florida try to hire her for 50 million a year to prevent this? She's even a great looking female who is relatively normal looking and who'd look great on a campaign poster. He can't hire her because she's black because she's a mutant? Do the people of Florida really prefer to lose the occassional city rather than hire her? Would it matter if she were covered with blue fur?

One of the realistic aspects of Abberrant is how the real world would treat super foke. They're rock stars. Money comes easily, and almost all of them can legitamently earn a million dollars a year without too much problem. Further, that's not because they're popular, that's because the economic impact of super powers is extreme and we live in a society where that would come into play.

It's very difficult to build a useless Nova with 30 nova points. Most of the X-men are built on a lot more.

This is an interesting point. Though the mutant issue of genocide and for lack of a better term 'racism' may not be as cut and dry as it is in the comics...but is certainly a concern. Take for instance, the idea of a mutant like storm who can manipulate the weather or magneto who can create magnetic fields. Even though these powers have nothing to do with anything else than what they do...any normal person who hears about a woman who makes weather...assumes she has 'other' powers as well. Now they get constantly harrased to tell the future, to touch sick babies, to cure the sick economy, to fix the world issues. What if they don't want to fix issues, what if they want to make weather!! Its only a matter of time before they lash out in anger, because the lame civilians keep pestering and pushing them, mobbing them if you will.

One angry lightning bolt of earthquake, now we're afraid of them...and shove a swat team up there butt. Maybe not that silly but you know what I'm getting at. All of the sudden, we 're afraid of what we don't understand again. Storm gets captured, tubes get stuck into her head and now we have free energy by way of solar power and hydro electric, controllable, renewable and FREE!!

...my rants scare even me from time to time.

oh and I think you could easily build most of the xmen with 30 NP. With extremely rare exception. Most of them honestly aren't that powerful.

[metaphysician]

I wouldn't say that; depends on the X-Man in question. Most wouldn't require more than 50, though, even for representing the full extent of their developed skills and powers. The exceptions being the people who have Q6 level ability, which is basically, um, Xavier and Magneto ( outside rare cases like the Phoenix ).

[Alex Green]

Now they get constantly harrased to tell the future, to touch sick babies, to cure the sick economy, to fix the world issues. What if they don't want to fix issues, what if they want to make weather!! Its only a matter of time before they lash out in anger, because the lame civilians keep pestering and pushing them, mobbing them if you will.

One would hope that she'd choose to fly away before she needs to fry people. But having super powers isn't a "first stick out of the bag" type of thing. 50 million a year buys a lot of privacy. Bodyguards, a walled mansion next to the beach, that sort of thing.

That's on top of being Florida's weather goddess, which I expect comes with a lot of local influence. Local police and political figures tend to take the harasment of people like that pretty seriously, and if they don't she can always call the govenor and realistically threaten to move to California. With great responsibility comes great power.

[Alex Green]

With a nova that can flatten city blocks (Pax) or drop hurricanes on cities (Splash) or even screw with the human species (Antaeus), people are going to be watching a bit nervously amidst the hero worship for signs of instability. Flamboyant or wild behavior that doesn't hurt anyone is more likely to be overlooked than sociopathic nutjobs or someone who get's stressed out and nukes downtown 'cause of a bad hair day. Those that can do major property damage or kill lots o' people will be watched a la the Directive. To do otherwise is just stupid.

The thing is that the Directive, and the rest of us for that matter, have very little idea on whether or not mental problems are taint related.

This board has seen strong disagreements over whether or not Pax is crazy or just an ass. Ditto Mal. If we didn't have stats for him then Totentanz would be another candidate.

And, worst of all, assume for the moment that someone (like Pax) *is* crazy (although the public perception of him might not repreesent it). What do we do then?

Do we kill him while he's still a hero? Imprisson him? Do nothing? Go public? Does he get a trial? Who gets to make this decission?

[astronomer]

Well, not to be snide, but society does, hopefully in a fair and just fashion. Society has to function in a stable way, or you get chaos or anarchy. I'm all for personal freedoms and rights, but your right to throw a punch ends where my nose begins. Whether or not Pax is an ass or not too sane, as long as he's in control and contributing (not damaging) society, it's still good. Until he breaks the law, he's presumed innocent (at least here). If he does break the law, due process takes over. You can be paranoid about him all you want, make preparations for when he (may) snap, but you gotta wait for it. This can be nerve-wracking in the case of the more powerful novas, with the really big potential for damage. The DC Superman is a powerful force for good, but did anyone consider what he could do if he snapped in a big way? I know Batman did!

[Alex Green]

All well put... but... let's say we publically admit exactly what Pax (and others) are capable of, and also publically admit what the problems are. Is society going to act in a "fair and just fashion"? Will he be presumed innocent? Or will we get witch hunts with the rights of novas really squished down? Worse, will they be deserved?

Forget Pax for the moment, our best example is Gabriel (biomanip from AB:WWI). NOTHING he has done so far has been illegal. The first actual crime he's going to commit is an attempt to exterminate humanity by manufacturing diseases. And I'm not even sure if anyone has passed a law against manufacturing diseases.

[metaphysician]

Actually, I'm pretty sure "manufacturing a weapon of mass destruction" is itself a crime, as is conspiracy to commit such. Plus, you could make a damn good case for "attempted murder", based on his statements.

As for how to deal with Gabriel, the problem is, the psycho method is also the worst, as killing all superhumans just guarantees the ones you miss are going to try and conquer or kill the world. . . and frankly, they'd be right. Much better solution for dealing with this kind of worst case scenario is "Get as many precogs as possible, to keep an eye out for incoming End of World Events, so that they can be dealt with properly."

[SkyLion]

There is a law against manufacturing diseases. They are termed "biological weapons."

[astronomer]

Actually, a better example is Antaeus, cheerfully altering the ecosphere for truly benevolent purposes: getting rid of air/water pollution, turning Ehiopian deserts into croplands, etc. He can also alter the characteristics of species, allowing to mutate, say, humanity into non-viability. Not easy to spot or analyze if subtle enough. He could render humans largely extinct in a generation or so, with no real defense. The precog alarm system might work, but if it's slow-mo enough, what if you don't spot it until too late? And the ones most able to do something are also the ones who are most dangerous. Sigh .... What's a paranoid Directive to do?

[Alex Green]

There is a law against manufacturing diseases. They are termed "biological weapons."

Sure, I buy that. But I see strong parallels between Gabe and that crazy student from um... I'm not sure; Some eastern college.

Gabe hasn't actually made bio-weapons yet. Maybe he's threatened too... but probably he's put everything in religious words so it's possible to read into it what you want to. He's obviously crazy but if he's assumed innocent and won't seek treatment, I'm not sure what the law can do.

And he's the most extreme example. Everyone knows what he can do, and what he will do, but his first actual crime may be mass murder.

What is the system supposed to do, and how does it do so without coming down on Pax and Antaeus (who apparently don't need it).

[metaphysician]

Thats the point where you really just have to put your trust in more benevolent, or at least enlighenedly self-interested, novas. Or better yet, do your best to encourage public mindedness.

Because realistically, there ain't a damn thing the baseline world can do against a Caestus Pax or Antaeus gone evil, at least not without causing so much damage to the world in the process that the victory is beyond pyrrhic ( imagine trying to ping and tire Pax to death with high yield nukes ).

[SkyLion]

Maybe Novas really should have their own homeland...

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part of this discussion started with the idea Frank Herbert proposed (and some Eon supplements hint at) that humans need to *stop* idolizing Novas and realize that just because you dont have a node doesnt mean you arent special and can create useful and beautiful changes in the world. Not every breakthrough drug or treatment or product is thought up by some Mega-Int. Humans have been doing amazing things since long before Novas came about...

[Sprocket]

Part of this discussion started with the idea Frank Herbert proposed (and some Eon supplements hint at) that humans need to *stop* idolizing Novas and realize that just because you don't have a node doesn't mean you aren't special and can create useful and beautiful changes in the world. Not every breakthrough drug or treatment or product is thought up by some Mega-Int. Humans have been doing amazing things since long before Novas came about...

Agreed, but there's a counterpoint to that: baselines also need to stop seeing novas as commodities, designated caretakers, epic-scale janitors and sources of entertainment. That last point will likely address itself by the mid-2030s - when stuff like N! and the XWF go out of fashion, as hinted in some of EON's hosted fiction - but the rest will take some doing.

[Alex Green]

Agreed, but there's a counterpoint to that: baselines also need to stop seeing novas as commodities, designated caretakers, epic-scale janitors and sources of entertainment.

Why for?

[Sprocket]

For the reason that novas are different people with their own wants, desires & needs, not the tabloid celebrities or characters out of a four-color comic book that the common man thinks they are. In the early Nova Age, many baselines see novas as a commodity to be exploited and depended upon. Being altruistic & civic-minded is good, but only to a certain point. Everyone has their limits, and baselines are constantly pushing quite a few novas to those limits - and it never stops. If a nova refuses their demands, baselines feel envious of them & try to bring him down. If a nova gives in to their demands, they become reliant upon him AND start increasing their demands - and they never give anything back to the nova. It's a lose-lose situation. Even without the Taint building up from all that stress, it'd be enough to sour many novas on 99% of the baseline population.

This is a recipe for disaster, much of the reason why angry/hurtful novas find the Teragen so appealing, and yet another very convincing motivation for closet novas to remain closeted.

[metaphysician]

This is related to the "unlimited responsibility" problem. Trying to take responsibility for fixing or changing too much easily leads to breakdown, as everyone has their limits. This could happen even *without* any external push; if someone had the power to heal the dying, and then felt they were at fault for everyone who actually did die, no matter how many they healed.

There's also the fact that you cannot be responsible for something unless you are in control of it, so if someone says "you are responsible for fixing Sub Saharan Africa", say, then the logical response is "thank you for supporting my newly begun reign."

[Alex Green]

For the reason that novas are different people with their own wants, desires & needs, not the tabloid celebrities or characters out of a four-color comic book that the common man thinks they are. In the early Nova Age, many baselines see novas as a commodity to be exploited and depended upon. Being altruistic & civic-minded is good, but only to a certain point. Everyone has their limits, and baselines are constantly pushing quite a few novas to those limits - and it never stops.

This is why novas should charge for their services. That by itself solves most of this.

Novas are rare, any specific power is much rarer, law of supply and demand says that when someone asks for a full heart repair (costing 1-3 points of quantum and a point of temp willpower), that's a $100K-$250K request (or something like that).

Mostly, the system works. There might have to be some adjustments, i.e. in theory a dying man can show up on a nova doctor's doorstep and he's legally required to treat him (I think), but appropriate pricing deals with that dynamic.

It doesn't solve the issue of taint, or power imbalance, or political imbalances, but it does solve something.

[Sprocket]

This is why novas should charge for their services. That by itself solves most of this.

That's assuming that the baselines who want a nova's services are:

1- willing to pay the nova's price,

2- don't try to coerce the nova by taking his loved ones hostage (a common black ops tactic), and

3- don't try to involuntarily draft the nova into the local military.

There is also the question of overly-large workloads to deal with even if a nova is getting a seven-figure salary out of it, as many Utopians could attest.

Other than those small hangups, charging for nova services is just as viable as you've said.

[SkyLion]

Yes. Exactly. I wasnt arguing that Novas shouldnt be paid, only that baselines need to stop *depending* on them. Sure you could pay novas a pretty penny to heal everyone but why not invest that money in a complete reform of the current system and make it better without Novas.

,,

The reason being that the zeitgeist of Aberrant canon culturally informs these Novas that they are *supposed* to be heroes.

,,

What if someone has the power to help the world but who for whatever reason doesnt want to. Maybe they are just lazy, who knows? But it should be their right to privacy if they so choose. Money may buy alot of things (as Alex pointed out even alot of privacy), but money isnt everything...

[Alex Green]

That's assuming that the baselines who want a nova's services are:

1- willing to pay the nova's price,

2- don't try to coerce the nova by taking his loved ones hostage (a common black ops tactic), and

3- don't try to involuntarily draft the nova into the local military.

There is also the question of overly-large workloads to deal with even if a nova is getting a seven-figure salary out of it, as many Utopians could attest.

Other than those small hangups, charging for nova services is just as viable as you've said.

RE: 1

If they aren't willing to pay then there are others who are, or the nova should be selling something else. This goes hand in hand with it being very difficult to think of a 30 point untainted nova who can't make a million dollars and deserve it.

RE: 2

Largely this is a short term and limited problem. Novas, and other novas, and law enforcement (et al) tend to frown on this.

RE: 3

A serious problem, but mostly in 3rd world countries.

RE: Overly large work loads.

IMHO that's self inflicted (which doesn't stop it from being a problem). Simply put, learn to say "no", and accept that while the demand is unlimied the supply is not. Granted that PU goes out of its way to make matters worse.

[Psilord]

I believe there are "Good Samaritan" laws in many parts of the US atleast that state

something similar to: If you are witness to a crime, accident or other situation wherein

you could save a life without endangering yourself; then you are required to take action.

In short Storm, having been informed of the incoming hurricane that could cause loss of

life (not to mention vast property damage) would by law be required to stop it, unless she

could prove it put her own life in danger. Society being what it is, those laws would likely

be expanded in the case of novas. Thus they could quickly become bound by law to use

their powers for free in many cases.

Could you not see "Criminal Inaction" laws being voted in to force service of supers? In

modern society, especially in less free countries, capability often turns into responsibility.

Think of the US today, if we had a nova citizen that could produce unlimited amounts of

gasoline. You'd have the public demanding that he do so, many oil companies demanding that

he not (or atleast just for them). The government would want him doing it, tightly controlled

so as not to disrupt the economy too greatly too fast (with oil lobbyists railing against).

Everyone (mostly) would expect him to get very rich from it and rightly so, but really,

would ANYONE give serious consideration as to whether or not he even wanted to do it?

What if he was super 'green' and thought gasoline is evionmentally evil and should never

be produced? Who would really care what he wanted, so long as we got our gas?

I just think that general society (and thus most governments) would end up requiring

supers to put-out so to speak.

IMHO