Aberrant RPG - Uber Claws

[SkyLion]

You still have the force-applied-to-area problem, don't you? Your nova swinging an axe will rip open the part of a wall the edge hits. Using a car, he punches out a car-wide hole. Even if he's using the same force, spreading it over a greater area can cause more overall destruction unless you hit a support beam or such. Against a small target, an axe focusses energy on a small area. For buildings, I'd want a car. I still have this picture of Superman trying to pick up a building and having the bit in his hands crumbling. Without area TK, you can't pick up buildings of current materials, 'cause you can't spread your awesome strength over the whole thing. It's not always about the power, it's the tools you use. ::laugh

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Problem 1...a car crumples against a building...an axe splits it as axes are designed to do, cutting a swath through the building and one would hope its supprt beams.

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Problem 2...In Aberrant, Mega Strength is like area TK...it specifically mentions that strong Novas can pick up items that would normaly crumple...in effect spreading their strength over the whole thing is exactly what they do...Im surprised you didnt know about that Astronomer...

[archer]

People do get kicked back from firing a gun. Doesnt mean there is less energy. A person goes flying back from a tacke by being knocked off balance. For that matter getting shot will spin you/knock you back *very* forcefully...

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Um, no. People do not necessarily get kicked back from firing a gun, as there are a lot of factors involved with managing that recoil; many of which start with the the gun itself(the mechanics and design), and end with the person firing.

And contrary to what Hollywood would have you believe, getting shot doesn't do jack for knocking people people around. Bullets make holes, it's that simple. If a round were to strike a large bone, it might move you a little due to the transfer of energy going directly to the bone, but that's about it. In real life, people fall usually fall down because:

A) Getting shot hurts. Lying down seems like a good idea.

or

There is a physical injury directly affecting the ability to stand. Immediate loss of blood pressure; shock; muscles or joints in the leg were damaged, etc.

[SkyLion]

Right. Then I stand corrected (Been shot at have we? ::wink ).

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Still doesn't change the fact a wrecking ball should do rediculous more damage than a mace...

[metaphysician]

Actually, all else being equal? For the same force exerted on an object ( ie, strength of the person swinging/throwing it ), you want smaller. The speed of the attack varies proportionate to the mass of the object, but the energy carried varies proportionate to the *square* of the velocity. So, trading mass for velocity is worthwhile, as you deliver more energy to the target.

( this is ignoring the danger of blow through, which means less energy gets transferred to the target, but generally if you get blow through, you were overkilling the target anyway )

[Alex Green]

Look here you. If I have a heavy bat. And i swing it once. Its going to be hard to back swing it due to its weight and the momentum I just generated. If I have a bamboo switch, Im going to be able to backswing it just as fast as the swing. Why? My strength to its weight ratio is such that the weight is negligible.

That's what intuition says. However intuition is wrong here because the scale as changed.

If I fall down I usually catch myself. My children don't. That's because they have a lot less time to react, although the fall looks the same, and has many of the same forces, they hit the ground much sooner because they're a lot closer.

Give someone a bat the size of a building and he is *not* going to be able to swing it as fast as he could a smaller bat. Let's say that the end of a 3 foot club is moving at "X" meters a second. Increase the length of the club by 50x and for the same angle, the end of the club has to move 50x as fast. It can't. Either the club will break (and nothing stops a nova from delibrately breaking something and that's what is happening) or the 50x extra mass will make it *much* slower to move around.

[SkyLion]

I realize that...that is why i am saying that the Nova is proportionately large enough to use the ginat sized weapon as normal for the scale...

[Alex Green]

I realize that...that is why i am saying that the Nova is proportionately large enough to use the ginat sized weapon as normal for the scale...

That's the problem right there. Even if we increase the size of the nova to match the scale of the weapon, we *still* have the same problems. Joe nova who gets his M-Str 5 from his size isn't actually stronger than the DMD, and he won't be able to wave the super-large weapon around any faster than him either. Scale matters a *lot*.

Does hot water mix with cold? In a coffee cup it does, but in a lake it does not. Increasing the scale changed the rules. In general the more damaging effects are either small (like a bullet or knife edge), or big but involve huge amounts of force.

If DMD can do M-Str damage with his fist, then swinging around a truck should in theory do less damage, because the scale has increased but the level of strength involved, the amount of force involved, has not.

[SkyLion]

I think the truck is a poor example. A truck *would* blunt the raw damage of his strength. An axe or sword however is designed to channel that strength into more damage by a beveled cutting edge...as you say focusing the area of the attack onto a smaller point.

My point is this. A sword does more damage than a dagger...its bigger and heavier. So why shouldnt a (well balanced, used by a giant sized nova) larger sword do more damage than a smaller one?

[Alex Green]

There are limits to what a dagger can do. But that "little" sword can already cut someone in half if the person using it is strong enough, and it can already go completely through someone.

What else is there? What is a larger sword going to do and why should it do it? We're already taken weight off the table. After you have a cutting edge longer than a person is wide, and DMD level strength to use it as though it doesn't have mass, what else can we add?

Make it too big (especially via sized up for a Giant) and you've basically got a club. Then we have the issues of being hard to use and breaking (which abby mostly doesn't deal with).

[metaphysician]

Well, there is one advantage big has: area effect. A thrown bus is harder to dodge and can hit multiple people, and the same thing applies to, say, a forty foot long maul made of gristle and bone.

[astronomer]

Dang. Thanx, SkyLion. Never assume you have a perfect grasp of a subject. I glided right over the second paragraph of Mega-Strength. ::blushing As for cars crumpling against buildings, a car weighing a ton or two being thrown with mega-strength is going to make a hole, not fold up like tinfoil. Cars have been driven into houses, ending up in a room. I should think a nova can do better than that. An axe , though. Hmmmm. Good for cutting gashes, maybe through support beams. Without super materials, an axe swung with nova strength should deform or break if it hits a resistant nova (or superstrong material object). Since attunement protects objects from a nova's powers, could you attune your axe so your own mega-strength won't break it?

[SkyLion]

There are limits to what a dagger can do. But that "little" sword can already cut someone in half if the person using it is strong enough, and it can already go completely through someone.

What else is there? What is a larger sword going to do and why should it do it? We're already taken weight off the table. After you have a cutting edge longer than a person is wide, and DMD level strength to use it as though it doesn't have mass, what else can we add?

Make it too big (especially via sized up for a Giant) and you've basically got a club. Then we have the issues of being hard to use and breaking (which abby mostly doesn't deal with).

So lets say that Rachel Alinsky creates an axe with a monomolecular edge. It is lightweight, made of nova tech materials and perfectly balanced. A nova with the appropriate level of attunement grows to giant sized and in addition has a force field that is attuned to the axe preventing its monomolecular edge from breaking or deforming.

So we now have a giant axe that is much heavier (thought still light to the nova) and can be swung with mega strength velocity. Its greater mass means it actually does have more force and it still transmits all that force onto an edge that is a molecule wide.

Now do I have a case for an uber-weapon???

[archer]

No.

::biggrin

[Centimane]

I think the truck is a poor example. A truck *would* blunt the raw damage of his strength. An axe or sword however is designed to channel that strength into more damage by a beveled cutting edge...as you say focusing the area of the attack onto a smaller point.

My point is this. A sword does more damage than a dagger...its bigger and heavier. So why shouldnt a (well balanced, used by a giant sized nova) larger sword do more damage than a smaller one?

Sky, what you're talking about here and in your following post regarding Alinsky's theoretical axe, does not come down to a simple matter of size and weight. That was my whole point with the tree trunk example, which I apparently didn't get across.

The sword does more damage than the knife because a weaponsmith designed it so that the extra weight is properly applied to greater effect. This is reflected in the +5D10 L of the weapon. If you grow to giant size and the sword grows with you it will do lots more damage, but only because you've gotten so much stronger. That +5D10 L is what's added to your own Strength, and it further converts it to Lethal for you. That's what the weapon does for you, that's why you use it. An especially well designed sword might add +6 or +7, or maybe even more than that in Lethal dice, but in every case it's dependant on your own Strength to accomplish anything. If you want a weapon that does damage on its own then you need to go look at firearms.

It might well be possible for Alinsky to develop an already giant, and massively heavy (and thus more durable) weapon that would add lots of dice to a nova's attack, but it would be for the same reason that a sword does more damage than a knife. Because someone designed it to do so. But if a mega-strong nova picked up that weapon, and then activated his growth so that he and the weapon became even larger, the weapon wouldn't suddenly do even more damage than before. Instead the nova would be stronger, and capable of putting more force behind the heavy weapon. So the weapon would do more damage, but only because the nova is capable of putting more force behind it (reflected by his increase in mega-strength).

As I stated before, the damage that a hand held weapon is capable of dealing all comes down to leverage, or to put it differently, its design. If you attack someone with a downward striking motion of your fist, it's certainly possible to inflict injury, but only if you hit the proper spots on their body and even then you run the risk of injuring your hand, because the human hand simply isn't designed for taking impacts at that angle. But if you use a mace to attack someone with a downward striking motion (clubbing them), you do far more damage, and it almost doesn't matter where you connect. And this is because the design of the weapon applies proper leverage in such a manner that it focuses the force of your swing into the head of the mace (instead of your fragile hand), which is more than capable of taking impacts at that angle. And so it adds +4D10 B to your attacks. But no matter how big you grow with the mace attuned, it will never add more than +4D10 B because it isn't designed to.

Make a better mace that focuses the force of your swing in a more efficient manner (has better leverage) and it'll do more damage, but you still face the same problem as before if you grow larger.

The thing you're aren't understanding yet Sky is that a hand held weapon relies entirely on your own muscle power to determine how effective it is. So if you suddenly grow larger, and take the weapon with you through attunement, then yes you'll be dealing more damage, but only because you're stronger, not because the weapon suddenly and mysteriously became more effective. In fact, it's more likely that if you were to grow larger without attuning a weapon, and then you tried to pick up that weapon and use it, that it would probably offer a decreased amount of extra damage dice. I don't know if you've ever played around with a tiny toy sword designed for an action figure (so it's only a few inches long), but there's no way to use it effectively because you can't get your force behind it - you can't get any leverage on it.

So in reality, giant characters would suffer a penalty for trying to use a normal size sword, and would have to have a giant-sized sword in order to get the same addition to damage effect that everyone else gets.

Now on the other hand, if you made a giant-sized weapon for the giant nova, but found a way to make it comparitively lighter, but with otherwise unchanged proportions and no loss of durability, then you would likely have a weapon that offered an increase to damage. But oddly, if you then shrunk the weapon down to a size that normal people could use, it would still grant the same bonus to damage effect.

At this point, if you still don't understand the difference between a weapon that's merely larger and heavier, and a weapon that's better designed, and why one does nothing to add to damage effect and the other does, then I don't really know what else to tell you. ::shrug

[SkyLion]

You're still not getting it.

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It doesn't matter the scale (save for the quantum level Im sure.)

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Force = Mass x Acceleration.

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More Mass = More Force.

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And duh. Of course a weapon is going to be designed to transmit force in some way. A more massive weapon swung at similarly clubbing velocities is going to transmit more force when it hits than a less massive object traveling the same speed.

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Its a simple, time tested formula and it doesn't lie. Nothing you can say is going to change it.

[Alex Green]

It doesn't matter the scale (save for the quantum level Im sure.) ,,

Force = Mass x Acceleration.

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More Mass = More Force.

Force = Strength. More Mass => Less Acceleration.

[SkyLion]

force does not equal strength. Force = mass x acceleration. We have already established that the strength needed to accelerate the weapon to combat speed is so much higher than needed as to render a large weapon a wiffle bat. Acceleration will remain constant (if not amplified...here is a case for hypermove doing waaaay more damage with strikes...) and with such greater mass moving at the same speed.

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You just don't want to admit that our crude little roleplaying simulation rules don't really work. ::tongue

[Centimane]

You're still not getting it.

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It doesn't matter the scale (save for the quantum level Im sure.)

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Force = Mass x Acceleration.

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More Mass = More Force.

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And duh. Of course a weapon is going to be designed to transmit force in some way. A more massive weapon swung at similarly clubbing velocities is going to transmit more force when it hits than a less massive object traveling the same speed.

,,

Its a simple, time tested formula and it doesn't lie. Nothing you can say is going to change it.

No Sky, you're still not getting it. Your equation "More Mass = More Force" is entirely incorrect. It's also terribly one-sided and it's blinding you to the whole equation. I could just as easily say "More Acceleration = More Force", but that would be incorrect too. You have to have both, and they're equally important.

Mass does not equal force in and of itself. Just because you now have a heavy weapon does not mean that it's going to swing itself around at high speeds doing massive amounts of damage. Mass is dependant on Acceleration for determining how "forceful" it is upon impact. But acceleration doesn't happen by magic Sky, it takes an input of energy to get an object moving in the first place. And where do you think that input of energy comes from in a hand held weapon? That's right! From the muscle power of the user.

So let's go back to your above example, "A more massive weapon swung at similarly clubbing velocities is going to transmit more force when it hits than a less massive object travelling the same speed."

If a nova is strong enough to pick up and swing your "more massive" weapon at a given speed, then he's also strong enough to pick up a less massive weapon and swing it at correspondingly higher speeds. Because he's swinging the lighter weapon at higher speeds it's going to do much more damage than it did in the hands of weaker users. The end result is that the less massive weapon might do less damage, but not by very much. And this is why we have a weapons chart that tells us that a chain does Str+5D10 B while a freakin' car does Str+6D10 B (+10 if you want to destroy it). That's only a single die of difference and it's because, while a mega-strong nova might well be able to pick up that car and swing it around at phenominal velocities, the same nova is going to be able to pick up a chain at swing it around at exponentially higher velocities due to its smaller profile (causing far less drag) and almost inconsequential weight (leading to a much greater rate of "acceleration").

You keep throwing around the equation that "Force = Mass x Acceleration", but you've yet to demonstrate to anyone here how that translates to a weapon doing more damage simply because it's more massive, other than by saying "more Mass, more Force". But even a casual analysis of this argument shows it to be flawed at a fundemental level. Neither Acceleration, nor Mass will yeild Force all by themselves. A more massive object requires more energy in the form of kinetic motion to get it travelling at the same rate of acceleration as a less massive object. So it possesses more Force because it contains more Energy. But if you put the same amount of energy into a less massive object it will have a greater rate of acceleration. The end result is that both possess the same, or nearly the same, amount of Force. And thus both objects will do roughly the same amount of damage to whatever they impact with.

And this is where things stop being simple. The issue of both gravity and drag have already been brought up, but I don't think you've realized just how much of a part they would play in how effective a larger (as opposed to a merely heavier) object would be as a weapon. The more massive an object is, the more gravity can pull on it, and the larger it is, the higher the number of air molecules it has to pass through just to get from point A to point B. And this in turn requires more energy to be put into the weapon to get its Acceleration up to where you want it. These factors can both be circumvented or lessened by modifying the weapon's design (for instance the wrecking ball isn't a half bad example because the action of swinging it around on its chain can actually be aided by the force of gravity, while the spherical shape of the ball is pretty aerodynamic, leading to less drag) but here again we have a situation where the increase in damage comes, not from the greater size or mass, but from superior design.

All of these things together combine to form a fine example of what is commonly referred to as the Law of Diminishing Returns. The definition of this is: the principle that a continual increase in effort (strength) or investment (mass) does not lead to a continual increase in output (acceleration) or results (damage effect).

Sure it's possible to make a massive version of a given weapon that is more inherently damaging in the hands of a user who can lift and handle it, but doing this takes more than a simple increase in either the weapon's size or weight, or the user's strength.

[SkyLion]

Duh Cottus..Im not an idiot..of course the acceleration come from the muscle power.

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More mass does mean more force when applied to the equation. Of course acceleration is part of it. I was not being one sided. In fact, if you read my post you would see that I allowed acceleration to remain constant. Why? LIKE I SAID...the strength level we are talking about is SO HIGH that it is already way overpowering gravity and plows right through any air drag...especially considering the aerodynamic cutting edges of an axe or sword.

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You are correct though in that a lighter object *shoud* be able to be swung faster. You *would* have to acctually plug in the numbers to find where the diminishing return was....BUT...AGAIN (*sigh*) we are talking such prodigiousy-beyond-what-is-even-needed-strength that the heavy object is being accelerated at the same (maximal) speed as the light object. What I am saying is that the strength is SO HIGH that the massive object feel just as entirely negligible to the wielder as the small less massive one.

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AGAIN: Accelration remaining CONSTANT, the object with more mass is going to produce more force in the equation...and trnasfer that much more upon impact.

[Alex Green]

What I am saying is that the strength is SO HIGH that the massive object feel just as entirely negligible to the wielder as the small less massive one.

So basically the claim is that doubling, or 100x-ing, the mass of the object won't decrease the acceleration? Basically that Hulk level strength doesn't include the ability to swing a 5 foot length of chain at super sonic speeds?

IMHO that's more an argument for decreasing the damage that small objects do. I.e. to bring my full strength to bear I'd have to be using a heavier object.

[SkyLion]

Would Hulk level strength permit moving at supersonic speeds? Possibly. Even i can break the sound barrier with a whip.

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Increasing mass does decrease acceleration to a degree...requiring more energy (strength) to accelerate it at the same speed. But we are talking so much strength that a tree trunk would feel like a wiffle bat. You would still need to be a giant to use the tree trunk effectively as a club (unless we say that M Str has the aforementioned leverging advantage..i believe their is actually a fan-made enhancement for this called "leverage") but its weight would still make it childs play to swing around at combat speeds.

[metaphysician]

Heh, maybe this explains why all the warrior novas in my campaign have high end mega dex and mega str as a combo. . .

( "Your strength is admirable, little Yuan, but if you are going to swing a sword around at hypersonic speed, you need to learn to control it first." "Yes, father. . ." )

[Centimane]

Duh Cottus..Im not an idiot..of course the acceleration come from the muscle power.

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More mass does mean more force when applied to the equation. Of course acceleration is part of it. I was not being one sided. In fact, if you read my post you would see that I allowed acceleration to remain constant. Why? LIKE I SAID...the strength level we are talking about is SO HIGH that it is already way overpowering gravity and plows right through any air drag...especially considering the aerodynamic cutting edges of an axe or sword.

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You are correct though in that a lighter object *shoud* be able to be swung faster. You *would* have to acctually plug in the numbers to find where the diminishing return was....BUT...AGAIN (*sigh*) we are talking such prodigiousy-beyond-what-is-even-needed-strength that the heavy object is being accelerated at the same (maximal) speed as the light object. What I am saying is that the strength is SO HIGH that the massive object feel just as entirely negligible to the wielder as the small less massive one.

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AGAIN: Accelration remaining CONSTANT, the object with more mass is going to produce more force in the equation...and trnasfer that much more upon impact.

Ok, first off, even light is slowed down upon entering the earth's atmosphere, so please don't try and argue that a super-strong nova can "plow right through any air drag". You're gonna get shot down so quick and from so many angles that it'll just be embarrassing.

Secondly, what is this "maximal" speed that you're referring to, and how is it that a nova is suddenly capable of swinging every weapon he gets his hands on at precisely this speed simply by dint of the fact that he's really strong?

Thirdly, the idea that it takes more energy to accelerate a more massive object than it does a less massive object was never in question Sky. I'm real confused as to why you keep harping on that. I really don't understand why you seem to think that, in melee combat using mega-strength, the mass of a weapon is variable but the acceleration isn't. I just don't get that at all.

Fourthly, the original example you used for your argument is that of a nova who's used growth to increase both his and that of his weapon's size. But in this example the weapon's mass has increased by a factor of x8 with each level of growth as well. A typical flanged mace, like the one you mentioned earlier, will weigh in excess of 4 tons after 4 levels of growth have been applied to it (over 8.192 lbs.), and will be over 28 feet in length. Assuming that the nova in question is now at mega-strength 4, then while he can certainly lift (and presumably use as a weapon) the mace, he can't actually carry it with him anywhere as it's too heavy (according to pg. 156 under the Mega-Strength heading, a nova can carry 100 kg per dot of M.Str without becoming encumbered). Meaning the nova would either have to have Lifter, or else you'd have to house rule in some system that actually allows the nova to cart around his giant mace.

So I don't really see how you can say that "the strength is SO HIGH that the massive object feel just as entirely negligible to the wielder as the small less massive one." A simple glance at the numbers will tell you that your new giant weapon is going to feel like a LOT more than a wiffle bat.

Unless of course you make a weapon that's just as large and sturdy, but weighs significantly less. Although, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure I already said that. Several posts ago.

[archer]

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AGAIN: Accelration remaining CONSTANT, the object with more mass is going to produce more force in the equation...and trnasfer that much more upon impact.

Sort of. I think you're trying to make the Force from the F = ma equation somehow equal to the amount of energy transferred on point of impact. The two are related, but not equal.

The calculations used to figure out the amount of energy transferred does use F as a variable, but that's it; it doesn't mean that said Force is equal to that EOI(energy of impact). There's some division in there beforehand, so that Force is necessarily reduced.

I think what's bothering me(and some others) about your argument is that you're using the F = ma equation as if that's the only thing that matters, and it isn't. You seem to want to apply a physics equation without considering all of the (very specifc)variables that, in real life, affect such equations.

Even in that equation, you have to account for the fact that the variable a(acceleration) has to be figured out before it can applied. Figuring out acceleration has to account for size of object, aerodynamics, friction, gravity, etc.

Force is not equal to damage. It is part of the next equation needed to determine damage, but not equal to it.

[SkyLion]

The 100kg per dor of mega str was a typo. Im not sure which errata its in but its supposed to be 1000 kg per dot.

[Alex Green]

That just means he'll be able to carry it if he makes a success on his Might roll. But "light" isn't a world I'd use to describe it, especially considering it's roughly a sixth of his total max lifting weight.

[Centimane]

The 100kg per dor of mega str was a typo. Im not sure which errata its in but its supposed to be 1000 kg per dot.

1000 kg is the maximum lifting capacity of a nova with mega-strength 1. So according to what you've just said, a nova with M.Str 1 can carry (without encumbrance) as much as his maximum deadlifting capacity. I'm pretty sure that doesn't make sense.

And anyway, the APG errata says no such thing. It does say on pg. 101 that each dot above 5 adds an additional 1,000 kg of carrying capacity. And it also says on pg. 156 of the core book that STs may want to increase a nova's lifting capacity past 100 kg per dot at higher levels, though it doesn't say that an ST has to, nor does it give any indication of what would be an appropriate increase.

However, even if we go with your theory that a nova can lift 1,000 kg per dot, a nova with M.Str 4 can still only carry 4,000 kg. This turns out to be only slightly more than 626 lbs. more than the aforementioned giant mace. So even if we go with 1,000 kg per dot (ten times what the core book says), that mace is still more than heavy enough for the nova to feel it as he swings it around.

[SkyLion]

TBH I always thought the max load encumbrance rules were way off. Other games usually let you carry around about half of what you can deadlift. 100 kg per dot of M Str seems awfully small, especially considering the curve at which M Str increases. I would say this is a clear cut case for house ruling.

[Alex Green]

So ignore "carry around" weights.

It's 16% of what he can pick up. For a man who can pick up 200 pounds (and by the way they're calculating it I suspect that's not very much), that's 33 pounds of weight he'd need to toss around. Sure, he can do it... but not without effort.

[ProfPotts]

Wow - haven't seen one of these 'physics intensive' threads for a while! Reminds me of the old discussions on Hypermovement... ::wink

Just to chuck in my ha'penny's worth:

The kinetic energy of bullets varies a lot, depending on the energy produced by the propelant & the mass of the actual slug - for handguns, this energy is pathetic compared with, say, a good solid punch. Bullets tend to do more 'damage' (what a role-play-specific concept that tends to become) than punches because they do more 'tissue damage' - i.e. they get inside you & bounce around your vital organs: kinetic energy, force, or whatever you want to call it is far from being the be-all & end-all when it comes to 'damage'.

Having said that, in Aberrant big things already do more damage than little things... it's on page 274 of the main rulebook. The limitation on the Mega-strong swinging stuff about is mostly down to that all-important 'Str Max' column on the chart.

E.g. DMD punches someone at full strength, he does 5 (for his base Strength) +2 (for the Strike) dice, plus 25 levels (from Mega-Strength 5), or 7[25]B (Bashing) damage (plus any extra for aiming at the guy's left nut or whatever, & up to 5 extra dice from extra successes to hit - but that's all constant, so it's easier to ignore it for this example).

The DMD picks up a knife & stabs the same guy at full strength, he does 5 (for his base Strength) + 2 (for the knife) or 7L (Lethal) damage - his 25 Mega-Strength damage levels are wasted - not 'cos he can't swing the knife fast or hard, but because of the physical limits of the knife - i.e. it shatters or snaps or whathaveyou, & the DMD's extra strength is lost.

Now, the DMD picks up a truck & swings it a full strength at the guy (who is this poor sod, & what's the DMD got against him anyway? ::confused ::tongue ::wink ): the attack does 5 (for his base Strength) + 12 (for swinging the truck hard enough that it's destroyed in the process) + 20 levels (for the maximum Mega-Strength of 4 you can put behind a swung truck) or 17[20]B damage. All things being average, the DMD is probably better off punching the guy (of course the truck attack does have a base pool of 37 Vs. the punch's base pool of 32, so the truck gets better knockback - & is damned impressive to boot!).

Back to Giant Nova Dude. Like the DMD, GND is limited in how much damage any weapon he swings can do based on the weapon's physical properties, rather than his own huge Mega-Strength. If he used a normal-sized sword as a 'toothpick-sized' (to him) weapon, he's doing a maximum of 10[5]L damage. If, on the other hand, he uses a giant-sized sword, then the ST glances at the chart & makes a ruling - if it's just a big-ol' hunk of steel, then he's probably gonna' class it as similar to a lamppost, so GND can inflict 15[10] damage with a full-powered, weapon-destroying, swing (the ST may make this L instead of B damage if the sword's all pointy & sharp, natch). If it weighs a full 10 metric tons, the ST may class it as similar to a truck. If it's a purpose-built, super-alloy, giant-sized sword of doooom, then you're really into the ST call arena (I'd say it kinda' depends on the effort GND went through to get the damned thing in the first place).

Of course, if GND is using Attunement to scale-up his sword as he Sizemorphs, then it's a simple matter to work out the weapon's new size & mass: dimensions all double per dot, & mass multiples by 8 (just like the Nova himself). At 5 dots of Sizemorph [Grow] a 3kg sword weighs 98.304 metric tons - so yes, the guy can still swing it, & yes, chances are he can use all his Mega-Strength too (since the damned thing is 10x the mass of a truck)... of course damage in Aberrant is threshold-based, so being 10x more massive than a truck doesn't mean doing 10x the damage - in fact, a 10 ton truck does just 1 normal die or 2 'destroys the weapon' dice more than a 1 ton car. I'd suggest that the super-huge sword would do +8/14L with a Str Max of Mega 5: still pretty damn good, but not totally game-destroying as an advantage.

Naturally the logic of this is comicbook logic - swinging a lamppost does more damage than swinging a baseball bat... I know, I've seen it in some comics I own... If we want to apply physics, then we quickly realise that GND is already dead due to his lack of ability to support the mass of his own ribcage (along with several other severe medical problems)... Damn you physics, damn you! ::biggrin

[SkyLion]

lol! ::laugh

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Way to bring some sense into the discussion Potts!

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Especially good point on damage itself being such a roleplaying concept.

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It was that that got me thinking. Whether someone cleaves you in twain with a normal axe or splats you completely with a giant one, you're just as dead either way.

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What really got me going on this discussion was the thought of what giant mega strong Novas should be able to do to a city.

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A giant nova swinging a toothpick sword or even a mega strong nova swinging that same normal sword is going to cut through a building...but both are going to make relatively thin narrow gashes.

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The thought that originally made me so vehement in the discussion was that the giant nova swinging a wrecking ball isnt just going to make a thin slash...its going to fully broadside the building and maybe know it down, depending on how big the nova is and how big and massive the wrecking ball is.

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Whereas a tiny human is going to go splat regardless the sense of scale of a building is greater..so having a weapon that destroys more surface area is going to be more effective in this case.

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Of course for the really gigantic ones (like the 200 foot tall Cthulhu character I made) are going to be able to just knock over buildings and punch through them with their massive hands.

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Of course that opens up a whole new can o worms. Buildings have way more Structural damage levels than a person ever could, do to their size and also materials.

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Most games solve this fairly elegantly by saying that any particular 10x10 section or whatever has x levels and you would have to get into ST territory for building collapsing maneuvers...like say it wasn't a plane that crashed into the tiwn towers but a nova punching or quantum bolting through the top floors...when the higher floors collapse you would still see that total collapse of structural integrity like we witnessed on 9-11.

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Ah the joy of gaming!

[metaphysician]

I agree that the encubrance values for mega-strength are way too small. 100 kilograms for Mega 1 isn't bad. . . but only 500 kg for mega 5? Especially since its established that weapons that way considerably more than 500 kilograms may be wielded by really strong novas ( the BFG notably ). . .

I figure a better value is "one tenth of your normal lift weight."

[Cytorak Ruby]

... it only affects the "Claws" damage, not the strength damage.

Claws stacks with Strength, Strength doesn't stack with claws.

Maybe I'm dense, but I see this wording used a lot and would like an explanation.

If I am Seargant Smash with 5 in Mega Strength, 5 Strength, and 1 in Claws, how much damage does Squishy McDeadFace take?

[Finbar]

1) He's going take 8d10[25] L damage, plus Brawling successes, before allowing for soak ((Str+2 (for the Strike)+1 for Claws 1)d10+[25] for Mega-Str 5).

2) The issue is that whatever you do to Claws doesn't necessarily apply to Strength, but whatever you do to Strength will apply to Claws. In other words, if I increase the character's Strength (such as through Growth) then it will also increase the amount of damage done (note that most enhancements don't apply, as Claws only apply to normal punches; Rapid Strike and Accuracy would, whereas as Shockwave would apply only against the surface in question).

By the same token, if I made Claws, say, Aggravated, then only the extra damage provided by Claws would be Aggravated, not the entire ball of wax...

FR

[Alex Green]

Yes, exactly.

Note that in the normal course of things you *never* make "attacks with your claws". You make Brawl or MA attacks, which claws adds too.

With the other quantum powers you'd roll "Power + Attr" to make an attack, because you're attacking with Q-Bolt or whatever. In theory you *can* attack with the Claw power, i.e. roll Claws+Dex, but if you do that you're only attacking with the power and you're not making a M-Str attack.

Similarly, Immolate also works this way. If you attack with the Immolate power (Imm + Dex), then attack succ go to Immolate. But you could also make a normal Brawl attack, which should do normal damage, and Immolate would also make it's own attack and damage at the same time (non stacking). The difference is attack succ would add to Brawl and not to Immolate in that case.

[phoenix]

The DMD has a rib-cage? ::huh