Aberrant RPG - Aberrant Setting questions

[metaphysician]

Well, I tend to figure that the upper levels of quantum power end up separating you from humanity to some extent irrespective of Taint. If nothing else, extended lifespan, extreme superintelligence, and vast perception beyond human norms would result in an entirely different perspective.

Difference is, this wouldn't inherently cause you to be insane, or be unable to meaningfully interact with mere mortals. It just means you'd be less "inhuman" and more "beyond human." For example, in my current campaign, the character Minos is a Q8 nova who apparently exists in a manner such that it takes focus to interact and perceive the ordinary everyday world. And yet, this perspective does not result in him discounting the lives of those 'beneath' him as meaningless; in fact, it gives him the opportunity to truly empathize with and understand all of them, in the concrete rather than abstract. This saintly attitude is as far from the norm as insane monstrousity, but you could hardly call it a result of taint.

[Alex Green]

Not all that long ago I had a character with Taint 6, Q10, and Plank Scaling.

He had enough social Megas to counter his taint difficulties... but...

Reality is what he says it is. This includes little things like making his girlfriend erupt and raising the dead.

It's hard to see how that *wouldn't* change your perspective... and that's even before things like immortality, a soak high enough to ping a nuke, perceptions that can hear hair growing, super human intelligence, super human willpower etc.

Think of how removed from common concerns someone gets from spending 20 years as a politician in office (Sadam is a good example). Now think of someone with all the above super powers who thinks so quickly he effectly experiences a year every day.

I think +2 social diff for a 10 Quantum is very generous.

[SkyLion]

Not all that long ago I had a character with Taint 6, Q10, and Plank Scaling.

He had enough social Megas to counter his taint difficulties... but...

Reality is what he says it is. This includes little things like making his girlfriend erupt and raising the dead.

What game were you playing in Alex? Did you get there with XP or was it a special campaign?

[phoenix]

Hey Alex, was that that game on RPG.net where the storyteller flaked before the first post? ::biggrin ::brick

[Jackson Creed]

Okay, to go back to the original line of questioning briefly (so I can add my two-cents), while working on Trinity: Awaiting Inspiration, an idea occured to me...

Quantakinesis.

Mmmm... Textbook enigmatic that eh?

Okay, let me explain. Quantakinesis works by Psi being used to indirectly manipulate Quantum. However, Quantakinesis simply does not occur naturally without massive amping up by the Chib Prometheus Chamber. No exceptions. Not one. Not Divis, not Max and certainly not the Doyen.

However, when the Doyen realised that Humanity had the hitherto unknown ability to interact with quantum energies, largely due to their awareness of humanity by the massive disruption Quantum and Taint caused in the noetic universe by 50+ years of Nova activity. They investigated and found that humans could be given the ability to use Psi to indirectly control Quantum! An ability the "all-powerful" noetic snotballs could not replicate. Not even slightly.

Okay, so what does this have to do with Inspired?

Well, I was just getting to that.

You see, in order for the Doyen to realise the humans had this potential ability, they must have had some awareness that it was possible at all through direct observation. They perceived the Novas, but what would have ever given them the idea to think that Psi could manipulate Quantum (an idea utterly outside the Doyen paradigm... and they are not renowned for being creative thinkers!)?

The answer was the Inspired. By the end of the Aberrant War, there were still Inspired wandering about (canon states that they exist in all era, albeit perhaps only a handful, and even then probably not aware of what they were) and saw what they could do, probably by pure chance.

SO WHAT??!??!!!

Okay, okay! Inspiration is actually not quantum or telluric energy at all... it is all about Psi!

Think about it for a minute. Stalwarts utilise quantum at a very low level to generate their abilities... abilities that are very similar to those manifested by the Enhancement mode of Quantakinesis.

The difference between a Stalwart and a Chib is conscious manipulation of Quantakinesis. A Stalwart does so subconsciously, which generates specific but instinctive effects (Dynamic/Quantum Knacks), while a Chib is essentially a Stalwart with an artificial noetic power boost.

Follow this train of thought and this explains Mesmerists. The difference between a Mesmerist and a Psiad (naturally occuring psion) is considerable, but yet again it is about conscious manipulation of Psi. Mesmerists use Psi, but use it in a more conventionally psionic manner, rather than manipulating quantum indirectly. So the difference between active Psi use and passive Psi use is the difference between a Psiad (psion) and a Mesmerist.

So what about Daredevils?

Well, if you continue this train of though towards Heroic Inspiration, things get really interesting! Daredevils also use Psi to manipulate Quantum, which would normally be the province of a Stalwart, but they do so at a specific and particularly sublime and subtle level: quantum probability. Novas have shown the ability to control probability overtly (Luck, Entropy Manipulation et al), but Daredevils do so at such a low and subtle level that they appear only to be extraordinary (but not super) humans.

This Grand Unified Inspiration Theory explains all three Inspired types, without creating a third fundamental force, and how they can relate to Psiads, Psions and Novas.

But what about Inspiration?!

Inspiration is simply Psi use at the subconscious level. Telluric energy is a 1920's term to explain these remarkable forces (quantum and subquantum particles). Inspiration is just a game mechanic that describes the subtle use of Psi (at a level that psions and psiads cannot use because they are too "noetically noisy") to affect probability (Inspiration facets, and Dramatic Editing). Stalwarts can subtly affect quantum to achieve virtually superhuman enhancement, while Mesmerists subtly use Psi to perform more conventional psionic effects, and Daredevils use Psi on quantum probability at a deeper and more subtle way than the other two types.

Okay, there it is. The Grand Unified Inspired Theory.

Any thoughts?

JC

[NFVD]

This sounds like a damn fine theory. Only one nagging problem though.

I believe it has been specifically mention in canon that Stalwarts are proto-Novas or a low-powered version of them, using quantum directly at a much reduced scale.

Since I don't have Adventure! I cannot comment any further but it does seem like a very, very good take on the subject.

If you are correct this separates the nature of Novas even more from everything else in the Aeonverse.

[metaphysician]

IIRC, when Stalwarts started popping up in the Trinity era again, they did show up with detectable, if minute, levels of taint ( probably "clean" taint like the type Edenites show, aka Quantum ). That implies eximorphism.

[Alex Green]

RE: Quantakinesis.

Using psi to manipulate quantum strikes be as like using ice to create and manipulate fire. It can be done, but it's very hard and not at all the sort of thing that works well or naturally.

I believe it has been specifically mention in canon that Stalwarts are proto-Novas or a low-powered version of them, using quantum directly at a much reduced scale.

They are. It's not cannon but a house rule I've seen is that if a Stalwart hits insperation 10 they become a nova.

RE: Q10

It was a 300 nova point email game with no limits. It fell apart pretty quick, we reached this devine profit lady and she was supposed to give us a warning just as she's murdered. At which point my character decided we really needed to have her around so he'd reverse that outcome. ::happy

POWERFUL character, could probably give Mal a run for his money right out of the box.

For aberrations he had

1) Quantum Becon (it's absurdly easy to locate him since his signature is so strong and it's always saying "here I am").

2) Too perfect looks (something about him just makes him look... "more real" for lack of a better word).

3) And Energy Emission: Reality Alteration (Once a scene something trivial retroactively changes... this can even include baselines).

[metaphysician]

Wow, over the top is an understatement. And I thought we were over the top for approaching 200 nova points of XP and Q6. . .

As for Stalwarts, not a bad house rule. In theory, I'd think something similar happens with the other types: Mesmerists grow up to be Psiads, and Daredevils grow up to be. . . whatever the mature equivalent of a Daredevil is. In practice, I'm not sure it'd work so well ( given the hierarchical nature of psionic powers and the totally-unknown nature of mature paramorphic abilities ).

[Jackson Creed]

Okay, lets break this down a little bit.

It has been established that the genetic sequence that allows a latent human to become either a Psi user or a Quantum user if the same. If you become one, you cannot then become the other. The Doyen provided the Proxies with Prometheus Chambers because they knew that the more latent humans who became psions, the fewer potential Novas there were in the world.

Everyone seems to be forgetting one tiny little detail in all this about whether Psiads or Novas are the most "natural". The answer is quite clear: Neither. Naturally, humans are baselines/neutrals. Every now and again there is an evolutionary "throw-forward" who either erupts as a Nova or manifests as a Psiad, but they are usually weak and play no great part in the grand scheme of things.

However, one particular "throw-forward" decided to change all that and gained the power to just that. Divis Mal generated the N-Day wave which unnaturally shifted the balance toward eruption as a Nova for several years. The resulting batch of Novas, and there quantum powers, continued to leak Quantum into the ether which continued kept the quantum imbalance skewed in favour of Novas.

Once all the Aberrants left Earth after the Chinese Ultimatum, there was no longer any constant Quantum use to promote further Eruptions. This is why there were very, very few newly erupted novas during the post-Aberrant War era. Granted there was vast tracks of ambient Taint, that had many nasty side effects, but little actual Quantum activity. As a result the human population rapidly went back to the natural equilibrium of having little inclination toward either Psi or Quantum.

Then came the Doyen. They caused the second imbalance in the natural state of humans by introducing the Prometheus Chambers. The mechanism was very different, but the effect was the similar; there were suddenly many psions running around. Whether ambient Psi use is like Quantum in that it encourages natural manifestation as a Psiad in no known (but seems unlikely).

However, there are baseline humans and there are latents. Latency is the same whether it is for Psi or for Quantum. The only difference is in what triggers it.

However, some of these latents are able to subconsciously use their Psi (which is, after all, natural to all life) without actually triggering as a Psiad. Those who were more predisposed towards Psi use become Mesmerists and use Psi passively to subconsciously to generate effects similar but far less versatile or quantifiable than Psiads are capable of. Stalwarts are more predisposed towards Quantum and manipulate it indirectly to enhance themselves, but they do not have a M-R Node and do not use Quantum directly. Daredevils are not inclined towards Psi or Quantum, and so there Psi use is restricted to much more subtle manipulation of quantum probability (rather than quantum forces) and thus their extraordinary luck.

As for Psi and Quantum being like fire and ice... well yes they are at high levels (such as active Psi and Quantum point expenditure) but at low levels they exist side by side quite comfortably. Inspiration points represent the subtle effect that Psi can have upon quantum probability, quantum forces and the subquatum universe.

Imagine a pond. This is the noetic plane (subquantum universe). The water flows in it's own way, has currents but the surface is essentially calm. Psiads and Psions use Psi to drop pebbles into the water, breaking the surface (creating detectable distortion, especially Backlash) when using their powers. However, the environment is only changed for a moment and everything will naturally go back to the way it was before once the Psi activity ceases. Quantum use is like droppping a boulder into the pond. It causes massive disruption and may change the very nature of the local environment permanently. Inspired on the other hand are like the action of the wind upon the surface of the water. They can cause ripples, similar to those caused by the Psi "pebbles", but they are more diffuse, less powerful, but ultimately can have more far-reaching effects, but like the Psi pebbles the ripples caused will eventually go away.

Don't get too hung up on this proto-psion, proto-aberrant, eximorph, paramorph business; they are just terms. Novas are novas, Psiads and Psions are Psiads and Psions. Neutrals/baselines are what they are, latents may be Stalwarts, Mesmerists or Daredevils, or they may just be latents. Stalwarts are not novas; they are just latents with the passive ability to use Psi to gain enhancement from subconscious use of indirect Quantum, Mesmerists are not Psiads; they are latents with the passive ability to subconsciously use Psi to accomplish psionic-like effects, and Daredevils are what they are, they do not mature and become uber-Daredevils; they are either Daredevils or they trigger as a Psiad/psion or Erupt as a Nova; there is no half-way. As for what Max Mercer is... well who the hell knows?!!!

Hope this makes sense ::blink

JC

[Blue Thunder]

Daredevils are not inclined towards Psi or Quantum, and so there Psi use is restricted to much more subtle manipulation of quantum probability (rather than quantum forces) and thus their extraordinary luck.

Only according to Baugh. Bates has said many times that daredevils are just normal people, who only have boosted stats for the sake of theme (pulpy adventure). They do not manipulate any energy at all, and that's something Bates was really clear to point out.

But then, it's contradicted in Terra Verde and Asia Ascendant, where suddenly daredevils are just like novas and psiads...they were latents who "erupted" into daredevils. They represent a third pathway according to Baugh.

It all comes down to how you interpret it.

Personally? I'm torn. Bates' views can easily be considered canon, but his words never made it into the books, and when Baugh took over he was the one that added in the stuff on Inspired appearing, and it was he that decided daredevils were latents who underwent a third path (other than nova or psiad). So technically, Baugh's view is the official view, since it made it to print. Like I said, I'm torn. At this point...I'm willing to accept daredevils as a third path. It's already made official in Terra Verde that daredevils start appearing, and it's further explained in Asia Ascendant (though that's semi-official, I consider AsAs canon).

[metaphysician]

I really can't accept the idea of daredevils as not having anything special. They are, empirically, superior to ordinary baseline humans, with abilities baseline humans don't have, and non-baseline humans *can't* have. Their appearance coincides with distinctly out of the ordinary events ( Hammersmith accident, Venezuela Phenomenon ).

Its kind of like the "Novas are overpowered by Trinity standards!" deal: "If you didn't want novas that powerful, you shouldn't have showed them being that powerful."

[SkyLion]

I really can't accept the idea of daredevils as not having anything special. They are, empirically, superior to ordinary baseline humans, with abilities baseline humans don't have, and non-baseline humans *can't* have. Their appearance coincides with distinctly out of the ordinary events ( Hammersmith accident, Venezuela Phenomenon ).

Its kind of like the "Novas are overpowered by Trinity standards!" deal: "If you didn't want novas that powerful, you shouldn't have showed them being that powerful."

,,

I can take it either way. Its true that Daredevils are *far* from normal, but this is a convention of the oulp genre. Doc Savage and Indiana Jones, The Phantom...all were normal. Also to point out that many people here think Batman can only be simulated with Mega-Atts. I disagree. Bats is peak in both natural abilities and training. I know this might not *seem* impressive, consider how rare it is in RL to meet someone who could be described as having all attributes at 5 and all pertinent skills at 5...it practically unheard of.

,,

So thats kind of a tangent but Batman has always struck me as a daredevil type. So if we are playing a pulp based game (Adevnture!) then I am inclined to keep daredevils as larger than life normal humans whos knacks merely represent the genre and their areas of expertise.

,,

If we are going for a Sci-fi feel, a la Trinity, then I think its a cool thought to have them manipulate probability.

,,

Like I said, either way is fine and its up to the individual ST and their games...

[Blue Thunder]

I really can't accept the idea of daredevils as not having anything special. They are, empirically, superior to ordinary baseline humans, with abilities baseline humans don't have, and non-baseline humans *can't* have. Their appearance coincides with distinctly out of the ordinary events ( Hammersmith accident, Venezuela Phenomenon ).

They don't have anything special, or at least they weren't supposed to. All of those Knacks and abilities they have? Thematic in nature only. A gameplay mechanic, and nothing else. If daredevils were supposed to actually be manipulating fate and probability, then that means that Dramatic Editing was a real force too, as opposed to a roleplaying effect. After all, it was a game mechanic...

As for "Their appearance coincides with distinctly out of the ordinary events ( Hammersmith accident, Venezuela Phenomenon )", again, daredevils were never supposed to leave the Adventure Era...it was never planned for them to appear after the VP by the people that made Adventure. When Adventure was made, daredevils were never to leave that setting, as they were made specifically for it.

The VP made everything confusing and unnecessary. Trinity is supposed to be about psions. Throwing novas and Inspired into the mix just makes everything pointless. Every book for the entire line is about playing psions...why toss everything else from the other two settings in, without reason?

Its kind of like the "Novas are overpowered by Trinity standards!" deal: "If you didn't want novas that powerful, you shouldn't have showed them being that powerful."

Are you refering to how Trinity players complain about nova power levels in 2008? That's because novas were supposed to be less powerful, but when the line was made, the developers made them more (much more) than twice as strong as they were supposed to be (which made the Trinity writers a bit upset). Hell, Divis Mal was supposed to be as powerful as a Proxy, but with his Q8 stats in 2008, he could make every Proxy his bitch.

[Jackson Creed]

We're just arguing semantics here at the moment; we already know that Inspired exist. Trinity canon says that it's so. 'nuff said. Daredevils do what they do. The only argument is over how they do it. Whether you go with Bates or with Baugh is entirely up to the respective Storyteller and what kind of game you want to run. My little theory is just what I came up with to unify Inspired into the Trinity explaination of the universe, but it is by no means the only one.

The folks over at Wolfspoor have taken the Bates view of Inspired; I have taken, and adapted slightly, the Baugh view. That is why I have been working on Trinity: Awaiting Inspiration. Given the rather spectacular lack of interest in helping with Trinity: AI, I can only conclude that most people are so undecided that they don't want to be seen betting the losing horse, so to speak.

To be honest, the gameline was killed by WW, and as a result, we have had to make our own supplements and stories. Brainwaves, Forceful Personalities, The New Flesh, A Breed Apart et al. are all part of the ongoing process of continuing where WW left off. We all have our personal favourites and areas of specialty: the Inspired happens to be mine.

Those mythical developer chats that get bandied around as being what should be canon are all well and good. However, Bates and Baugh are not the developers of the Aeonverse gameline any more; we are. It is what we decide the future of the Aeon lines should be, because it is us who have put a great deal of thought and work into a game line that we love. If the old developers want to contribute, we are not hard to find; 5 year old active (not to mention productive!) gamesites are fairly hard to miss!

In closing, I realise that each of the games runs at its best when taken purely on its own (as is being discussed in another thread), and trying to patchwork a unified universe is a tricky prospect at best (I refer you to the Old WOD, where this was taken to the extreme; a dozen different rulesets and worldviews trying to co-exist in a single world... and even then they eventually used the old "just ignore what you don't want" rule).

The Aeonverse is not so bad, only three games to deal with, but the golden rule is this: take what you like, ignore what you don't. Everyone seems to have an opinion in the Inspired argument, and to be honest, that can only ever be a good thing... even if it does mean having to work on supplemtnets by yourself! ::tongue

JC

[SkyLion]

I like Trinity: AI JC. Keep up the good work. Like I said, when it comes to Daredevils, either way is cool but I prefer non-powered for pulp and probability control for sci-fi...

[metaphysician]

For "nonexistent game mechanics," the abilities of daredevils are impressive enough to actually *gain in-character notice.* I think people are confusing the why ( daredevils have extraordinary abilities because thematically, pulp heroes can do extraordinary things even if normal human ) with the what ( daredevils have extraordinary skill and luck, beyond normal for humans ). The why is arguable, the what is not, unless you want to argue the book does *not* in fact give daredevils access to abilities not available to baseline humans.

And the parallel to the nova/aberrant issue is simple: a developer says one thing, and contradicts it in the actual canon material. The Trinity guys say novas weren't meant to be that powerful. . . and they have them irradiating entire continents, blowing up cities, sinking states, raising mountains, frying the OpNet, and in general doing all kinds of horrible Q6-Q8 range things to the world. A developer *says* daredevils are just normal humans, with nothing extraordinary going on. . . and yet, the book covering them has them having quite a few extraordinary abilities.

[NFVD]

In closing, I realise that each of the games runs at its best when taken purely on its own (as is being discussed in another thread), and trying to patchwork a unified universe is a tricky prospect at best (I refer you to the Old WOD, where this was taken to the extreme; a dozen different rulesets and worldviews trying to co-exist in a single world... and even then they eventually used the old "just ignore what you don't want" rule).

The Aeonverse is not so bad, only three games to deal with, but the golden rule is this: take what you like, ignore what you don't. Everyone seems to have an opinion in the Inspired argument, and to be honest, that can only ever be a good thing... even if it does mean having to work on supplemtnets by yourself! ::tongue

Yes, the "grand unified theory" only becomes relevant if one wihses to run a mega-campaign with all 3 games (something who could last for years and years IRL).

However, if one wishes for a grande scheme behind it all while playing only one game I think the ideas tossed before can de used and only need some thinkering to adapt the needs of each gameline is a way that benefits the protagonists. I.e. you play one of the games for its sake but use information from the other two to answer questions and provide solutions.

With my limited Aeon-Lore I think the final result would like somewhat like this:

Adventure!

Telluric energy is something other than Quantum or Neotic, maybe a third force, maybe the combination of both. Inspired are the next stage in human evolution. The Hammersmith incident trigered this occurance earlier within select members of the species.

Everything else (Novas, Psions) are over-specialized evolution taken to far, too fast due to unnatural influence of outside forces that unlike the Inspired draw upon a single form of fundamental forces. The future of the Inspired and how evolution will progress if shielded from those outside factors is open to debate. Will Inspired natturaly become Novas and Psiads or something else?

Aberrant

Novas are the next stage of human evolution. N-day causes and the ubiquitousness of eruptions in the era are misterious (*). Like any new species Novas are burdened with growing pains and must discover their true nature and potential. Inspired were the first, weaker, manifestations of what is now a ongoing process, and used the very same forces (Quantum, Neotic or both) even if at the time sciene gave it a different name. Psiads, the other conteporary side of the evolutionary coin, are effectively a dead-end because they lack Nova's trans-human potential (think Neanderthal vs. Homo Sapiens). Psions will be the artificial trade in of neotic scope or quantum potential for boosted Psi under the aegis of an alien race. A process as unnatural as it is artificial.

Taint and Chrysalis are windows opening to shed light on what the future will bring for the Nova race but at this time that future is not written in stone.

(*) - or not, if you choose Mal as the cause of it all the evolutionary process is also "infectious" which ultimately only makes it faster.

Trinity

As above for the Inspired. Novas and Psions are still the two sides of the same coin but the former have evolved to something other than human while the latter keep their humanity. Prometheus is a flawed crutch that helps speed up a slower natural ongoing process at a cost. Novas themselves have experienced an evolutionary bifurcation where they become inhuman (Aberrants) or transhuman (good space novas).

The bottom line will be there are two evolutionary pathways for human evolution, one has less possibilities but mantains your humanity the other has unbridled potential but turns you into something other than human.

The facts that Psionic seems rather universal in different races and that only humans can use Quantum or use Neotic to control Quantum leaves the true nature and role of the human race in the galaxy open to debate.

Note that I know next to nothing about the Venezuela Phenomenon. I don't know if it will cripple any of these world-views outright.

[metaphysician]

Its basically just a semi-deliberate Hammersmith repeat. From your angle, what it is is speeding back up the "natural" evolutionary progress, outside of the intentional influences that divert it one way or the other.

One possibility that has gone unnoticed, though: something screwed with the Earth's "quantasphere" so to speak, resulting in new eruptions being aberrant rather than nova. However, the Venezuela Phenomenon flooded the planet with balanced telluric energies. Its possible, that this might "reboot" the Earth's quantasphere, thus gradually shifting it away from "guaranteed aberrant eruption," and maybe gradually reduce the taint zones as well.

[Blue Thunder]

For "nonexistent game mechanics," the abilities of daredevils are impressive enough to actually *gain in-character notice.* I think people are confusing the why ( daredevils have extraordinary abilities because thematically, pulp heroes can do extraordinary things even if normal human ) with the what ( daredevils have extraordinary skill and luck, beyond normal for humans ). The why is arguable, the what is not, unless you want to argue the book does *not* in fact give daredevils access to abilities not available to baseline humans.

Following this logic...every Extra in the game, who only have 4 Health Levels each and possess limited Attributes/Abilities, are "sub-humans," not possessing as much health and strength as the "superhumans" (the PCs and important NPCs, neutral or otherwise). After all, they only have 4 Health Levels...there must be something physically wrong with them. They would certainly gain in-character notice. Bob and Ted have the same Stamina score, and are the same age, but Bob goes down with only half the damage Ted does. Bob must be a sub-human.

Some things exist from dramatic systems. The extra abilities of daredevils fall into the same category as Extras and Dramatic Editing in this case.

And the parallel to the nova/aberrant issue is simple: a developer says one thing, and contradicts it in the actual canon material. The Trinity guys say novas weren't meant to be that powerful. . . and they have them irradiating entire continents, blowing up cities, sinking states, raising mountains, frying the OpNet, and in general doing all kinds of horrible Q6-Q8 range things to the world. A developer *says* daredevils are just normal humans, with nothing extraordinary going on. . . and yet, the book covering them has them having quite a few extraordinary abilities.

Novas can still gain the power to flood large areas, and wipe out the OpNet, and cause earthquakes, and whatever else while still starting low level. But just look at the damage a single dot of Quantum Bolt can deal, and look what a single dot in Mega-Strength can do. And then remember that novas have DECADES to grow in power, and they're going to give birth to children that are even more powerful than they are, who will also have DECADES to grow in power.

It would have been fine if novas started out as powerful as psions (or even a bit more powerful). Because they have a hell of a long time to grow into that power and gain city-wide and continent-wide effects.

However, Bates and Baugh are not the developers of the Aeonverse gameline any more; we are. It is what we decide the future of the Aeon lines should be, because it is us who have put a great deal of thought and work into a game line that we love.

Yes, but we have to be careful not to contradict already established material, and to not get out of hand with what we make (as in, keeping it in theme and setting and reason). Fans don't always know what's best for a series, especially since they didn't concieve of it in the first place, and because they tend to add whatever they want into it, as oppossed to whatever would work best for everyone else or the setting.

To be fair, the e-books so far have been pretty damn good (though I do have issues with some). I'm paranoid and edgey.

[Chuckg]

For "nonexistent game mechanics," the abilities of daredevils are impressive enough to actually *gain in-character notice.* I think people are confusing the why ( daredevils have extraordinary abilities because thematically, pulp heroes can do extraordinary things even if normal human ) with the what ( daredevils have extraordinary skill and luck, beyond normal for humans ).

To take one canon example, Annabelle's sniper shot to take out the anti-gravity machine in the Adventure! corebook opening fiction.

The single greatest marksman in the history of the human race, in the real world, could not even begin to come close to doing that shot. Annabelle does them *routinely*.

Don't tell me that daredevils are just human beings.

[metaphysician]

Re: extras, not a fair example. . . because the Extra rules only apply against Inspired characters. IOW, its not a property of the mooks, its a property of the heroic characters.

[NFVD]

To be fair, the e-books so far have been pretty damn good (though I do have issues with some). I'm paranoid and edgey.

What other e-books are avaiable besides A Breed Apart and where can I get them?

[Finbar]

This sounds like a damn fine theory. Only one nagging problem though.

I believe it has been specifically mention in canon that Stalwarts are proto-Novas or a low-powered version of them, using quantum directly at a much reduced scale.

Actually, it's not covered in the book...Although there are some designer notes on the subject, and a lot of speculation, there's nothing canon to suggest that stalwarts become novas, or that mesmerists become psions. Just as an observation...

FR

[BlueNinja]

Actually, it's not covered in the book...Although there are some designer notes on the subject, and a lot of speculation, there's nothing canon to suggest that stalwarts become novas, or that mesmerists become psions. Just as an observation...

Are you suggesting that Divis stays a Stalwart the whole time? Or that he erupts separately?

[Finbar]

I'm suggesting that Divis isn't a stalwart, and is a nova. Divis has the ability to manipulate quantum; as such, that makes him a different type of character than stalwart. If he's looking for equals, why did he create novas and not more stalwarts? The A! book itself points out that he is above stalwarts as stalwarts are above regular people; why say that if he was just a stalwart?

FR

[SkyLion]

To take one canon example, Annabelle's sniper shot to take out the anti-gravity machine in the Adventure! corebook opening fiction.

The single greatest marksman in the history of the human race, in the real world, could not even begin to come close to doing that shot. Annabelle does them *routinely*.

Don't tell me that daredevils are just human beings.

,,

,,

I think the problem with everyone arguing with the above logic (not to single you out and no offense Chuck), is that they just don't get it. Its PULP! Hello?? Im guessing many of these people are ignorant as to what that genre entails...

I'm suggesting that Divis isn't a stalwart, and is a nova. Divis has the ability to manipulate quantum; as such, that makes him a different type of character than stalwart. If he's looking for equals, why did he create novas and not more stalwarts? The A! book itself points out that he is above stalwarts as stalwarts are above regular people; why say that if he was just a stalwart?

FR

,,

It has been suggested that Divis erupted with Nova power levels while all the other Stalwarts are stuck at A! power levels. Its all part of the Metaplot Deus ex Machina that we love/hate...

[metaphysician]

Yes, the pulp genre involves extraordinary people doing extraordinary things.

Again, your confusing the why with the what. *Why* daredevils exist is because in pulp, ordinary humans can do extraordinary things. *What* daredevils are, is people with greater than human skill and luck *by the standards of the game system.*

::brick

[Chuckg]

I think the problem with everyone arguing with the above logic (not to single you out and no offense Chuck), is that they just don't get it. Its PULP! Hello?? Im guessing many of these people are ignorant as to what that genre entails...

First off, the classic pulp genre was in /no/ way limited to 'extraordinary but still possible in the real world'. There are many things in pulps that are just flat-out not possible to ordinary human beings, ranging from genuine superpowers (The Shadow's invisibility) to scientifically-impossible gadgets (Doc Savage's disintegrator ray) to the outright supernatural (the Ark of the Covenant in "Raiders"), etc, etc. So simply pointing out that something is 'pulp' in no way absolves it from the charge 'bro, this stuff don't even vaguely fit inside conventional reality'.

In addition, there is the difference between 'extraordinary' and 'flat-out not possible for strictly human being'. "Extraordinary" is Indiana Jones being thrown off the hood of a moving truck, grabbing the undercarriage, and sliding all the way around the back to climb onto the truck again. "Impossible" is hanging upside down from a plane's landing gear by your knees, flying along faster than a speeding car, and nailing a less than 1-inch square target at a distance of circa one thousand yards. With the first shot you've ever fired out of an unfamiliar weapon, at that.

So to get back to Adventure!, yes, I am entirely willing to take the position that Daredevils have something funky going on with them, something beyond being mundane human beings with extraordinary skill levels. The laws of physics and probability don't outright *snap* around them like they do around novas, but hoo lordy, do they get /severely/ bent.

[Finbar]

It has been suggested that Divis erupted with Nova power levels while all the other Stalwarts are stuck at A! power levels. Its all part of the Metaplot Deus ex Machina that we love/hate...

It's been stated (not suggested) that Divis started as far above the most powerful stalwart as that stalwart is above the regular person. This is sort of where it gets bumpy: Follow the bouncing ball:

1) If Mercer's not an Inspired (he's noted as being something else), then why does Doneghal need to be a stalwart?

2) The only strike against Mal being a nova is that no one can detect his power use. At the same time, that's listed as one of the advantages of having the level of Quantum Mastery that Mal is reputed to have.

3) Why did Mal create novas instead of more stalwarts?

4) Bear in mind that the game effects of stalwarts are vastly different than novas. If the two are the same, then why change their abilities (Aberrant was already out), which changes how the characters are played, rather than just note that the stalwarts were to be played as novas? Especially when there's no way to replicate Dramatic Editing in Aberrant (and I've tried; even Luck doesn't touch what it can do...).

Not trying to be a jerk; just trying to point out that sometimes the metaplot does make allowances for some of the weirdness...

FR

[metaphysician]

I got the impression Donighal and Mercer were buffer than normal for their era because they both got a near point-blank exposure during the Hammersmith Accident. Makes you wonder whether Hammersmith really died, or something else happened. . .

[Finbar]

1) Keep in mind that they weren't the only two there; so were Professor Dixon and his then-wife, heh, and they were normal, sorta...

2) It looks like I misquoted the line, but not by much...If it helps...

FR

[metaphysician]

I think the difference might be, they were:

1. Further from the center

2. Not Inspired beforehand

Neither is hugely certain, though.

[Blue Thunder]

Bates made Adventure, and he has said that stalwarts are novas, and mesmerists are proto-psions. He's the one that devised and put together Adventure, so I'll take his word for it. Baugh disagreed, apparently, as he puts the Inspired directly into Terra Verde and Asia Ascendant like they're unique types of Q and Psi users. Do with those two opinions what you will.

Personally, I feel that not coming up with no answer may be best for some. Keeping an air of mystery around the question may work best in-game.

So why do stalwarts and novas have differing powers? Because of the setting and genre. Adventure never meets Aberrant. The two don't cross. Stalwarts never make it to the Nova Age (Mal aside, and perhaps any your ST lets through) but if they make it to Aberrant, they're novas. There's no reason to make a conversarion process or have the two scale together nicely, because the two time periods never bridge together.

It's like when my friends and I played D6 Star Wars, then had to transfer our characters into D20 Star Wars. A lot of stuff didn't make the transfer, and a lot of the systems were different. Some things just didn't add up or make sense. Jedi powers worked differently, some were stronger, some were weaker, some weren't even available, some contradicted powers from the D6 system, etc.

But they were both Star Wars. Just with different systems. Anyone thats played D6 and D20 Star Wars can tell you there's a significant difference in playing style between the two. For instance, in D6 Star Wars, there's a Wild Die, which gives a 1/6 chance to be extra successful at something and a 1/6 chance of failing horribly. In D20, this would be a natural 20 or a natural 1, which each have a 1/20 chance of occuring. So in one Star wars, you have a 1-in-six chance of really messing up or doing extremely well, while in another these are rarely concerns.

And then there're power levels. In D20, a level 1 character will pretty much always lose to a level 5 character. And even if a level 10 character has never fought a day in his life, he'll have a higher attack bonus than the level 1 warrior, just because. In D6, a starting character can get the jump on even a seasoned character ten times as powerful as he is and pwn his ass as long as he was a little crafty and was made for combat. The growth system in D6 doesn't have character levels, you only increase the stuff you want to increase, so you could have a minimum attack power the entire time, whereas with D20 your attack power increases with level. The D6 system allows for great feats of heroics and impossible stunts, which the D20 system can't compare to.

I went off for a bit there, but I think I kinda made my point (I have to use examples a lot because I'm bad with words). Adventure's novas work differently because it's a different setting and a different genre, but they're still novas. According to Bates. Baugh takes a diffferent approach; stalwarts aren't novas and aren't as powerful, but they don't have Taint, and they even have a Psi point.

It's up to the ST to decide which explanation is right for their game.

[Alex Green]

What other e-books are avaiable besides A Breed Apart and where can I get them?

There is another ebook put out by the same crew called "Forceful Personalities". "Breed" was taken out of the physical book that is being worked on... whose name I don't recall off hand.

Those are fan works.

Official there is Brainwaves, and one or two of the Trinity books (of varying completeness) came out as "e".

[Psilord]

What other e-books are avaiable besides A Breed Apart and where can I get them?

Check out the DOWNLOADS section here at EON for "Forceful Personalities" and some others. "A Breed Apart" originated as part of the ongoing e-book "The New Flesh", which is hopefully not more than a couple months away.

Have fun with them! ::biggrin

[Blue Thunder]

Trinity E-Books:

Official

Field Report: Oceania (download from White Wolf's old site)

Field Report: Corporations (download from White Wolf's old site)

Terra Verde: Sudamerica and Norca (purchasable as PDF file at drivethrurpg.com)

Semi-Official/Unreleased

Asia Ascendant: Asia and the Ministry (donwload at EON)

Fan-Made

Field Report: Noetic Science (donwload at EON)

India Underground: Bharati Commonwealth and Chitra Bhanu (download at EON)

Fan-Made - In Production

Awaiting Inspiration (EON)

Bright Continent: UAN and [new psi order] (EON)

Aberrant E-Books:

Official

Underworld (purchasable as PDF file at drivethrurpg.com)

Semi-Official/Unreleased

Brainwaves: Mega-Mental Attributes (download at N!Prime)

Fan-Made

Forceful Personalities: Mega-Social Attributes (download at EON)

A Breed Apart (download at EON)

Fan-Made - In Production

The New Flesh: Mega-Physical Attributes (EON)

And those don't count abandoned projects like Desert Sands and the Great Britain e-book, both planned here at EON. And those don't include personal projects, like The Implicate Order, which I'm typing in my free time and may never finish. And then there are "e-files" like the Aberrant Compendium, which have new powers and such.

[Finbar]

I also have "Space Tactics" (something that looks at tactics in space, as well as general tactics for psions/abbies), and the Greks campaign setting, about a group of humans that evolved on a different planets, as well as Races, if you really want to expand the races in your campaign....

FR

[metaphysician]

Please tell me you didn't *write* the Space Tactics one. That thing was aweful on a level I've only seen once or twice before.

[Blue Thunder]

The Races.pdf won't load for me, hmm...I don't think I've read it yet, either.